I'm Beginning To Think That A Draft Is The Best Possible Scenario!

[DistressedAmerican]

I have long opposed compulsory military service. However, I have also come to the conclusion that most Americans will never really oppose the war until it starts to cost THEM something.

The all volunteer force serves as amazing political cover for the criminals running the war.

If a draft were implemented, the overall lack of support for this disaster would transform overnight into ACTUAL OPPOSITION.

While I'm not certain, I'm beginning to see the logic in such a move. Not to support the war by increasing troop levels. But instead to undermine it by making average Americans feel the price we're paying for this neo-imperialist, oil grab.

As long as they remain comfortable in their homes watching events on TV (or possibly worse, not watching events at all), a real anti-war movement is ham-stringed.

Send a few husbands, wives, sons, and daughters into the quagmire and just watch their opposition grow and grow!

What do you think?

[indepat]

1. I think the great majority who support pre-emptive war will pull strings

to keep their precious ones from being drafted: that's what I think.

[DistressedAmerican]

Well Of Course Bush Voters Would Have The Lowest Draft Numbers!

[Stockholm]

9. How did this work during the Vietnam war?

My impression is that the affluent chicken hawks managed to slither out of the draft leaving ordinary folks doing all the fighting?

Am I wrong?

[DistressedAmerican]

11. My goal one way or the other is not to make the powerful and rich fight.

certainly that would help though.

My goal is to make the AVERAGE citizen understand what this is costing us. Average citizens will not beat the draft. Those that can will just add to discontent over the whole mess. They will be like salt in the average person's wounds, speeding an end to the war by increasing opposition.

[tinrobot]

163. Not drafted... or placed in "Champagne Units"

I think it will be harder for the children of rich people to escape the draft because of the changes in legislation. From what I understand, it's not as easy to escape just by attending college.

However, once drafted, there is no law that says which soldier goes to Iraq and which soldier stays in the US. I would assume the well connected would have their kids serve far away from harm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

221. And some Jenna and her sister

should stay stateside for security reasons... as much as I hate it... now the kid of a senator... front lines for you... I fear he or she will get a billet stateside though

[coloradodem2005]

2. What's sad is that you may be right.

[tavalon]

3. Pull up a seat

I've been here for about a year. It's caused me all sorts of liberal guilt, I'll tell ya', but in the end, it just seems to me to be the best thing.

Best thing, that is, for the anti-war/anti-Bush Cabal folks. It's going to suck for a lot of people but hopefully it will short circuit the craziness that has infection 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and the nation as well.

[bullimiami]

4. It just seems very wrong headed to me.

To support a draft as a way to demostrate how wrong Iraq is.

Support a draft if you want a draft. Otherwise find another way. If the draft is restarted the same bastards that are misusing the volunteer army will abuse the now larger, drafted army.

[Warpy]

5. No, it's a horrible idea

no matter how much opposition to the criminals it generates.

Consider that the one thing that is curbing their appetite for fresh conquest is the lack of manpower. Consider that the volunteer army is now working exactly the way it's supposed to, that in times of corporate war of convenience, people STOP VOLUNTEERING!!

If you think the draft would mobilize the braindead church ladies of both sexes in the heartland, you're sadly mistaken. It didn't in the 60s and it won't now. They'll consider it an honor to have their children snatched away by the army, "Besides, it'll make a MAN of him."

If this country were truly under attack and war were sadly necessary, the military would have more volunteers than it could train. As it is, the drain of manpower as the military is being wasted in a war to support the oil companies in the middle east is discouraging volunteers and preventing expansion of that war into neighboring countries.

That, my friend, is exactly what we wanted to happen when we fought for and won a volunteer army.

[DistressedAmerican]

10. Good Points But, The Draft Was What Fueled The Anti-War Action In The 60's

It made all the difference. No way to prove it but. I strongly suspect that if they had been fighting Vietnam the way we are fighting Iraq, we would have stayed longer.

I agree that the all volunteer constraining factor. You may well be right about additional conflicts. However, your arguement clearly does not hold for Iraq. They will continue this policy as long as they can possibly hold to it.

They will extend tours, lower recruiting standards, screw reservists, implement stop loss measures, etc. until the cows come home as long as they can "stay the course".

[Warpy]

18. 55,000 dead kids made the price too high

and trust me, this gang of criminals will kill far more.

No draft! Not ever! It's a STUPID idea!

Lack of manpower is the ONLY thing keeping us from wrecking more countries. If you don't believe me, then refer back to the PNAC fantasy site.

[DistressedAmerican]

22. Well Let's Hope That Is Not What It Takes This Time Around.

I'd say calling the idea stupid is a bit pointless and counterproductive though.

Show me how such an attack adds to this dialog.

[Mandate My Ass]

23. Let's hope???!!!!

Let's hope?

Jesus H. Christ.

Let's encourage thousands of more young men and women get killed or maimed in an unpopular and unwinnable war so tens of thousands more won't have to die, we hope? :eyes:

What demonstrable actions or policies has the Bush administration committed in the past five years to give us hope that they give a shit about anything or anyone?

[DistressedAmerican]

30. Let's Hope That Tens Of Thousnds Do Not Have To Die To Make America

wake up.

Relax! I was in no way arguing that we should get tens of thousands killed and maimed. I was saying that if the 55,000 dead was what ended the war in Vietnam (a claim I do not fully believe), that I certainly hoped we all got wise well before that.

That was my point which you took completely out of context!

If you do not see how a shift in public sentiment is our only hope of getting out of Iraq, I can't help you. Maybe you do see that. If so, GREAT. I'm proposing an idea to make that change. You offer criticism but where are your ideas?

What we have been doing is not working...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Mandate My Ass]

45. Oh so you don't like demands?

Then stop making them.

I will never jump on your crazy-assed bandwagon and give up the lives of thousands of young people for some perceived political gain and the extremely highly unlikely outcome you envision.

I do not have to trump your idea when your idea has no merit.

Thank you for calling me repug slime and you have a nice day, mmmkay.

[Toots]

159. They use Mercernaries now and don't more manpower to further their plot

As long as they can plunder America's treasury and Deficit Spend they can get by paying Mercernaries a thousand dollars a day and have hired killers with no accountability. A draft would end Wars for Profit because America would not allow them to continue if it meant sending their kids. It needs to hit home for America to rise up and say no more.

[AndyTiedye]

262. And The Draft Would Provide Enough Troops to Put Them Down Again

A draft would end Wars for Profit

It would only lower their labor costs.

because America would not allow them to continue if it meant sending their kids. It needs to hit home for America to rise up and say no more.

And how would we stop them, once they had expanded the army enough so
that they can easily impose martial law?

[AndyTiedye]

260. They Can't Go to War Without Troops

They can steal the elections, they can fudge the polls to make it look
like they have support for their Crusade, but where are all the Crusaders?

We don't need a draft to end the war, it will end for lack of troops without one.

[Chef]

25. Draft

You make some good points. However, I don't recall when Nixon set up the all volunteer military, he thought it would work as a curb on excesses of empire seeking whack cases. To the contrary, the opposition to the draft was borne out of a rejection of wars of convenience. Theoretically, No draft = no opposition.

It is true (to a certain extent)that mothers who have their sons come home in a box must seek some meaning in their loss. Dieing to defend your country is honorable and a justification that works most of the time. Dieing to further Smirky's political career or some corporate interest is not dieing to defend your country. It's just that knowing the difference is not always quickly apparent. Especially if you have a dog in the fight.

During WWII, the country was under attack. Yet, we still needed a draft to provide the 10 million people needed to fight it. The problem is we don't stop to ascertain whether there is a real threat. The president appeals to our patriotism to get the money and manpower to carry out his plans and we trust that he is right. Later, it becomes apparent he that he was wrong(to some of us, we knew this guy couldn't have been right from the get go)regardless of whether there is a draft or not. It takes time before it becomes apparent as it did with Viet Nam. Apparently less time with this "war".

We spend a half a trillion dollars a year toward defense. And, still, we can't put enough troops on the ground to contain one relatively small conflagration. All the money is wasted to support one segment of our economy that has grown so powerful that no one dares to say no to it, and once in a while we test the fruits of that investment on some third world bad guy for the fun of it.

What we need to do is have a serious discussion as to what actually constitutes a threat to our country and what we need to counter that threat - draft or no draft.

I doubt that we need a draft for the sole reason that there is no threat that requires that number of people to counter. However, there is something about the democratic nature of shared sacrifice that comes with universal military service when the need arises. Unfortunately, we cannot trust the government (especially not this one) to design a draft that would be fair and we cannot trust the government (especially not this one) to use the military in the best interest of defending the country.

[bigtree]

6. Why do we place such importance in warring?

There are countless other ways to serve the country outside of military service, many, I would argue, have more importance. I'm worried about condemming our generations of youth to a life that is certain to involve weapons and preparations for killing another human, most often anonymously, facelessly in battle. How can we justify making that choice, to kill, for generations of unborn to come? Don't we deserve a choice, whether to kill? I think our country will be doomed to destruction (even more so than now) if we militarize all able hands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Read Keegan's the face of battle

you may find your answer there

[bigtree]

132. ". . . the distillation of wars in the industrial age:

. . . long-distance killing of faceless men by others who merely activate the instruments of destruction."

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Trust me the infantry grunt still sees the eyes of those he kills

it is that close in your face, affaire...

By the way, time to reveal something, as part of my service, I was in several major shootouts... firefights, what have you... and trust me, that changes you forever. This is in ways that Keegan does not even start to describe

[bigtree]

136. we will likely never escape the reality of our own inherent violence

but I believe that we need a sizable number of future generations to work towards a world with less animosity and more resolve towards acts of peace. Although I may believe that war and violence will probably not disappear, I don't accept its inevitability. That's why I argue for the support of those who would decide not to take up arms or engage in any aggression towards others.

I do believe, as it was said further up in the thread, that if our country was actually at risk, there would be more than enough volunteers. Also, that the volunteer army keeps a check on misuse of these citizens by the refusal of many to join in support of an unjust leadership with questionable motives and ambitions.

[Cornus]

7. I agree

I was also raked over the coals for suggesting the same thing several days ago in another thread.

Not only would a draft do what you suggest (create immediate opposition to the war), it would also equalize the burden among ALL strata of society.

I also think that provisions should be made for conscientious objectors by providing some alternate means of service. In a truly democratic society, EVERYONE should serve their country in some capacity.

[Mandate My Ass]

8. My only son would be taken if there was one.

Play that political roulette with your own kids' lives, please.

[DistressedAmerican]

13. My Daughter Is Young But, I Consider Her As Elligible As The Next.

What I want is the quickest possible end to the war so that OUR GOVERNMENT can stop playing roulette with all of our soldiers lives.

Doing so may require everyone taking the collective risk. Right now the poor and minorities are paying the price so that middle class America can sit in their air conditioning and pretend like it all does not matter.

If that continues we are just filling out death warrant after death warrant for the poor to make the rich even richer. That is not a good solution in my book!

I'm certainly open to better suggestions! Got one?

[Mandate My Ass]

15. Sorry

The "do-you-have-a-better-idea" challenge does not mean that I should have to go along with your bad idea, especially when my "collective risk" is much, much riskier than yours.

It's already considered a a wasted effort by the public and unwinnable by the military. This war is wrong, poorly planned and it was based on lies. Hammer that home. Repeatedly.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. That Is EXACTLY What HASN'T Changed Public Opinion About The War!

"It's already considered a a wasted effort by the public and unwinnable by the military. This war is wrong, poorly planned and it was based on lies. Hammer that home. Repeatedly."

That is what we have ALL been doing like crazy since this started. Has anything change other than the increase in lives and money wasted?

America KNOWS the war was based on lies. They have internalized theat fact and simply do not give a shit as long as they are not required to contribute.

Lying politicians are accepted as the norm. Pointing out that they lie will not end the war. It doesn't even lose them their elected positions. If it would, the war would have ended long since.

We have to move past more of the same. They just "stay the course"...

[Mandate My Ass]

27. Let's kill more kids in an unwinnable and unpopular war

of conquest to show that killing kids in an unwinnable, unpopular war of conquest is wrong.

Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome is the definition of insanity. That is what you're proposing.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

42. How is my argument simplistic?

Unlike Vietnam, this time the body bags and returning amputees remain hidden from the public. This will continue when the draft ensues.

Public support for this war has already eroded significantly without a draft. The Bush administration does not care. The MSM will continue to ignore that fact but the support he once enjoyed does not exist and they will aid and abet him if the support drops to 0%.

We saw that protests do not affect Bushco so if suddenly millions more took to the streets because their kids were dying, nobody would cover it.

So to sacrifice thousands for a perceived gain when the playing field is not level is just plain nuts, IMNSHO.

[DistressedAmerican]

46. All I Hear You Say Is That We Can't Beat These Bastards.

Support is somewhat eroding. But, as I noted in other posts low polling numbers on "support" do not tell us a think about active opposition. Rerun those polls and ask people if they are actively opposing the war you would have a pretty popular LOOKING war.

Real opposition to this war has not yet manifested. When and if it ever does, Bush will not be able to ignore it. The media will not ba able to ignore it.

Sorry they have left you feeling like there is nothing the public can do to stop them. I'm sure they are very happy to hear that!

We have the power! You may have forgotten!

[Mandate My Ass]

47. There is plenty we can do

I will never support a draft. Ever.

[DistressedAmerican]

49. For Someone Complaining About Their "Challenges" Being Ignored,

You sure do refuse to respond to me.

I have asked you how long you think the status quo will take to end the war? Nothing.

I asked about how you thought there would not be a major shift in public opinion when you yourself react so strongly to the discussion of one. Still nothing.

All you have done is demand I shut up with my crazy ass ideas and tell me how Bush is impervious to public opinion.

I'm done with you unless you have some actual ideas.

You have made yourself quite clear. You think I am crazy. You will never support a draft for any reason. You think the movement toward ending the war is proceeding apace. You are pissed off at the idea of a draft but, you are quite sure that a draft would not change public opinion on the war. You think that nothing we can do as the American public can effect either Bushco or the media. Thanks!
==================================================================

BTW - Possible expansion is a reasonable argument. Possibly correct. However, I doubt that dipping support for Iraq would translate into support for expanding the war beyond Iraq.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

26. But you wouldn't let them go! Simple as that

There needs to be a draft, my boys are 18, and 22. Just TRY and take them! Plan A- They are signing up for CO status at the Unitarian Church. Plan B- we have applied for passports. Costa Rica is very nice. Plan C- hit the streets (which I'm already doing) with signs telling people THE WAR IS A LIE.

What if they had a draft and nobody came?

[stanwyck]

52. As the mother of a Marine

who is on his second tour in Iraq, I agree with you. Let's keep military service voluntary. I abhor another draft. I was in elementary school during Viet Nam...but I know the horror. It's true that compulsory service would certainly quiet the squawking of the chickenhawks. Everything changes when it's your kid. The conservative soccer moms would be marching in the streets with the liberal soccer moms. United.
But a draft is just wrong. It signals failure. We've given up. We're so out of control we have to force people to commit to our murderous foreign policy.
I want an all volunteer army. But this administration has abused it's trust with the American people and jeopardized our ability to continue without a draft.
We're over-extended and vulnerable.
Bush is not a leader.

[DistressedAmerican]

53. I Always Appreciate Hearing From You And Other Families On These Issues!

I was pissed when two of your posts were yanked last week. There really was no reason at all. You just questioned someone's claims that the majority of Iraqi's want us to stay based on your son's personal experiences. Odd.

Your insight is good for all of us to hear.

[Mandate My Ass]

54. I'm grateful to your son for his service

and I will keep him in my thoughts and hope for his safe return. :patriot:

What a thoughtful and moving post. Once we put our kids' lives up for political gain, we lose our children, we prolong the suffering of this debacle, and we confer legitimacy on what we know is illegal, unethical and unwinnable.

[MsTryska]

60. don't you think it would be refreshing to have someone

admit this?

"We're so out of control we have to force people to commit to our murderous foreign policy."


getting soemone to admit that, is getting soemone to hold themselves accountable.


it's about time, imo.

[thinkingwoman]

12. why should I have to sacrifice

my son?

Compuslory service is the polar opposite of freedom and therefore unamerican. period.

This delusion that the draft will impact the people who are for the war is reaching epic levels, but it isn't based on reason or reality.

[DistressedAmerican]

14. You Shouldn't. NO ONE Should. That Is Why We Need A Change To End This

war.

Right now the poor and minorities are paying the price. The middle class on the whole remains complacent and ignorant because they have nothing invested in ending the war.

Why should the less privledged have to sacrifice THEIR sons for the sake of a complacent middle class and a greedy upper class?

[thinkingwoman]

73. I'm one of the less privileged

and if middle and upper class Dems push to reinstate the draft out of some misguided belief that doing so will change the world, my only son (who is 14 1/2 at the moment) could be drafted and sacrificed.

There is no truth to the legend that somehow a draft will be different this time and that upper class kids will have to serve. They never will.

[peekaloo]

16. I agree, sadly. I want to see that "rumors on the internets" clip

from the debates played endlessly, too.

Also don't just embed the news media, draft their sorry asses into combat, too.

My allergy meds are making me irritable today.

[Terran]

17. I agree with you.

My position has changed also. I was vehemently opposed to a draft, but now I believe it's the only thing that will wake the sleeping masses up. AND, once it's begun, I think it will happen a lot faster than it did in the Vietnam era. A lot of people are already waking up, and I think we're already poised on the brink of massive dissent against the adminsitration. A draft will be like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. Most Dislike It. But, They Do Not Hate It Yet!

That is how they keep muddling through despite dismal poll numbers. Most Americans do not support the war. But, most also do not actively oppose it.

I smell the fumes as well. Where's the match?

[LittleClarkie]

19. It may be true, but I wouldn't feel right cheering for it

We could lose people here. I hope it doesn't come to that. But I fear that's where we're headed, as the military is hollow from what I hear.

[DistressedAmerican]

21. Believe Me Nothing About What I Said Do I Feel Right About...

It is a tragedy no matter how it is handeled at this point.

I just want the quickest possible resolution as I believe it will save lives in the end. If a draft is required to make that happen (and I'm beginning to believe it is) them I begrudgingly support it.

[LynneSin]

28. This is why the very anti-war Charles Rangel has a draft proposal out ther

Because his version would be very strict when it comes to people opting out of the war because of money or privledge.

Personally I think anyone with a damn yellow ribbon magnet on their car should be drafted to fight this war or at least send their kids to fight if the driver is too old

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. I am giving them the recruitment info

though I check.... yellow ribbon, DoD sticker, somebody is in the warzone.. yellow ribon, no yellow sticker.. you get my drift

I mean when my husband was in the war zone I WORE a yellow ribbon

[MadHound]

29. Sorry, I just can't agree with that notion

Sacrificing lives in order to score political points is not a good idea. Besides, the ones who really need to go, the chickenhawks, the well off/well connected will manage to evade the draft, while the poor and working class will bear the brunt of the burden(as they always have)

In addition, have so many more people in the military will just allow Bushco to implement their PNAC plans at a quicker pace, and allow the corporate masters to make even more obscene amounts of money.

Nope, I'd rather it stay a volunteer army, and with recruitment numbers waaaay down, have this war end because of attrition.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. I'm Not Talking About Scoring Political Points!

I'm talking about saving lives in the long run by ending this war more quickly.

Attrition may work. But, it is slow and these guys will hang on sending any poor, under educated folks they can buy to their deaths as long as the public remains disinterested in ending the war.

[Mandate My Ass]

33. That's exactly what you're proposing

Do you think the day the draft is enacted there will be a magical tectonic public-opinion shift that will end the war?

No, it will open up on more fronts causing the need for thousands more warm bodies to send into the meat grinder.

You're deluding yourself.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. You Seem To React Pretty Strongly To The Notion! What? America Wouldn't?

Your own reaction should show you just what a difference such a change could make in public opinion.

You are deluding yourself if you think such a change would not have a profound effect. Feel that irritation welling up inside you?

America would join you if this became a real deal plan.

[Mandate My Ass]

38. You have failed to respond to any of my challenges

on how many body bags are an acceptable collective sacrifice and produce this magical profound effect you propose. In case you have been asleep for the past five years, the Bush administration does not give a rip about public opinion. See Social Security reform, interference in private family medical decisions, the Bolton nomination, reproductive choice, stem cell research, the PATRIOT ACT....etc. etc.

I do react strongly to proposals of insanity, it's just a quirk of mine.

[DistressedAmerican]

40. I'm Not Sure How Many Will Die In This War. Are You?

I'm looking for a plan that would reduce what ever that number may eventually be.

It is quite clear that you react very strongly to such a plan yet you claim that there will not be an effect on public opinion. Bush is not some political superman that can withstand any shift in public opinion. I'm sorry that you have learned such helplessness.

Again I ask you to take a look at your own reaction and tell me that such a policy would not change public opinion. That is why they have held off a draft this long.

Looks like Bush already has YOU beat. I'll keep fighting thanks!

[Mandate My Ass]

48. You'll keep fighting?

It's my son who will die for nothing.

You're fighting with other people's lives just like Bush does.

Good job!!!

[PuraVidaDreamin]

34. What if they had a draft an EVERYONE refused to go?

You just don't go-

ANd WE ALL should be thinking about attending career days
at our local highschools and tech school (Isn't United for Peace and Justice doing this) put a booth next to the recruiters with real war photos, and other career ideas for kids. Point them to the Conscientious Objector route.

[MadHound]

37. Your logic just doesn't fly friend

It took eight long years for the horrors of the draft to penetrate the American psyche during the Vietnam war, and tens of thousands of soldiers, along with millions of Vietnamese died in the interem. This is the same scenario that would be repeated with a draft now. Meanwhile, a draft would allow the theatre of war to be expanded, thus fulfilling Bushco's every PNAC wet dream. It would be a disaster, on many levels.

However, if we stick to the voluntary army, the war cannot be expanded, and in less than eight years attrition will put a halt to it, with significantly fewer deaths and much less destruction.

I understand your frustration, but implementing a draft is not the answer to the problem, a draft would only exaerbate it.

[Mandate My Ass]

50. Thank you for that

If a draft happens, the war expands, Bush wins, we lose.

The republicans are still blaming the loss in Vietnam on liberals who protested and brought down morale instead of putting the blame on their lamebrained attempt to win a guerilla war halfway around the world. As far as the military industrial complex is concerned (and the Carlyle Group), more warm bodies means more money for them and less children for us.

It's so freakin' obvious. :shrug:

[2bfree]

41. I hope you get drafted first.

I have two draft age sons and I do not want them to go. Anyone who advocates a draft for whatever reason should have their name in pot as well. :(

[PuraVidaDreamin]

51. NO! You just don't let them go!

They can arrest them- but then they get 3 squares, plus some type of health care! We just don't let our boys go!

[Ganja Ninja]

43. I support the draft only for the sake of our currently serving troops

that are being asked to sacrifice more than they should be. Other than that I think it's unfair to send people to a war they don't support when there's plenty of belligerent war supporters that deserve to go first. It's only too bad we didn't make a list of where people of draft age stood at the beginning of the war. That way the gung-ho supporters could be the first in line.

[demgurl]

44. I think the RW is putting on a God Damn Magic Show!

magicians use a classic technique called misdirection and the * regime has been doing the same thing for as long as he has been in office. Now that the inevitability of a draft has come about - they can not keep occupying Iraq for their precious oil without more troops, they are framing it so that we, the LW, get ALL the blame.

Their talking point for the last couple of months has been how they are not meeting their goals because of us! WE are shielding our children. The 'MSM' are painting a bad picture. And on and on it goes! The RW hate shows have already gotten the sheeple to a point where they are attacking us in the streets - I am not the only person who has been almost run off the road by a fundie car and others have been verbally attacked, but now they will have us fighting an all out civil war because WE are so unpatriotic!!!!

They have the sheeple looking at us when it is really them. They have them so riled up that the sheeple will never listen to us when we try to explain what pawns they are. We may not have a choice but to fight when they come for us and try to drag us from our houses. OK, maybe I am being a tad melodramatic here but I could have totaled my car when the freeper tried to run me off the road for my bumpertsickers. These people are mad and the hate shows are fueling the fire. We are taking the fall for this, they have not listened to reason yet and they will not listen now. The blame is coming to rest squarely on our shoulders if their children go off to war.

[fob]

55. I've thought along the same lines. Adding 2 years of service for

everyone to be completed in the 6 years between 18 and 24. No "Senator's Son" type exceptions either. Of course those that wanted to could stay longer and make it a career.

I think that would put the bush* doctrine right in the crapper.

I would need to find the answers to a few questions like, What is the current size of our armed forces personnel? What is the potential pool of personnel available from above plan?

This plan is NOT for bush*s bullshit war, it's more of an overall sustainable plan for the DEFENSE of our Country. The number of forces should be relatively stable or at least predictable to a high degree and then bases could be figured to correlate, funds spent on necessities and SOME high-tech planning and the MIC can be cut the fuck off the governmental budgetary teat!

Or we can just elect SANE representatives who are TRUSTWORTHY, but I ain't holding my breath for that.

NOTE: This is MY opinion and I am not going to defend any attack of any missed fine points because I'd prefer to have sane, trustworthy representation anyway.

[Mandate My Ass]

56. I like the way you think

particularly the part about the MIC. Sounds reasonable to me.

[shanti]

57. no way

i have four sons and i am vehemently against it!!!!

[MsTryska]

58. Yes.

I bring this up quite often, and usually get rebuked with the "forced servitude" argument.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. They can only have my teenaged sons over my dead body. n/t

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[MsTryska]

62. which is precisely the point.

i think the OPs original point is that the only way to get the res tof america off it's ass is to insitute a draft and bring out the "over my dead body" in everyone's parents.


Get America fighting the freaking government again the way we should have been all this damn time.

[Ron Green]

70. I see it not as "getting America fighting the government again," but

Getting America BEING the government again. The problem with the all-volunteer armed forces is that it's just another privatization scheme, with the logical extreme being the "contractor" war we have going now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A fair draft (meaning no deferments for the well-connected) would plug us all back in to the process of defending our nation and examining what sorts of events create a need for military involvement.

In the meantime, national service would be, rather than something we have to beg and wheedle for, something that would be expected and given full participation. If someone wanted to continue in the military, he could then make a career of it with good pay and benefits, but the vast pool of draftees would serve their country at low pay, just as it has been in the past.

I have two draft-age children, and I support a move AWAY from this "hired-gun," contractor-based all-volunteer force, and TOWARD citizen participation in service to our country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Hmm some historical context

the US Army has been a volunteer force for most of its history. The latter part of the 20th century, starting with WW II, was an anomaly.

Just a point of fact, the first draft occured during the civil war, leading to riots... which I am almost smelling this time around.

[Ron Green]

81. I don't think a draft will sell very well at this time, because Bush's war

will be seen as the reason. If the reason were truly to engage citizens in service to the country, it's a different story.

When I served from 1966 to 1969, there was always healthy dissent in the Army units to which I was assigned, coming from the "US" numbers in their righteousness of having been drafted, but spilling over into the "RA" ranks as well ("Hey, I would've been drafted anyways, so I signed up for _______ school.") Despite this dissent, there was some genuine pride in wearing the uniform of the United States, and the gung-ho tendencies of those on the low end of the Kohlberg scale were usually tempered, in those late-night barracks philosophy sessions, by those who saw through McNamara's lies and were yet willing to serve the nation.

One of the dangers I see in the "You'll have my kid over my dead body!" position is that we lose from our national fabric some important threads: understanding what it means to serve and sacrifice for the greater good; and allowing the public to participate more directly in the process than simply paying Halliburton to spread the American Empire abroad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Trust me as a wife of a Navy Vet who continues to

serve his nation in other capacities... and a Medic who served as well (not in the US Military but tried) I can see your points very well.

Hence Why I do not think this contry will survive. The sense of nationhood and shared sacrifice has been utterly destroyed by the Righties, ironic yes, but they have.

For many this is now a measure of just carrying a bigger flag than thy neighbor but actual sacrifice for the common good has left.

Oh and no, for those thinking I think the military is the only way to serve, heck no... there are many, but even those routes are increasingly seen as dishonorable due to the attacks from the right to defund them, such as teaching, nursing, police work, fire and EMS

[Ron Green]

86. I share your views, and I'm afraid you may be right about the destruction

of our sense of nationhood and shared sacrifice. That's why a draft AT THIS TIME might just erupt in civil war, extreme unrest, whatever.

However, I do believe that if instituted without deferments and in a grand and equalizing way, it could bring our nation's foreign policy back into line with the essential goodness of the American people. This goodness has been buried and hidden, in my view, by the machinations of the RW and their propaganda groups for the past 30 years, and specifically since 9/11. And that's a real shame, because leaders have the power to bring out love rather than fear in people.

It's ironic to talk about a universal draft as having anything to do with love, but Jeeesus, the other way isn't working at all, is it?

[Mandate My Ass]

88. In what country will a universal draft be held?

The right holds all the branches of government. They have fought dirty on every level and flaunted their mean-spiritedness and self-serving power grabs and changing the rules to suit their own interests.

An egalitarian draft will never, ever happen, and they won't apologize for it either.

If you want to inspire sacrifice in the service of one's country, give the youth something worth sacrificing for, other than the Halliburton profit margin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Riots, revolts, uprisings, civil war, revolution

this is what the Right fears and waht this may come to.

Are you willing to sacrifice YOUR LIFE to regain our country?

No this is not just talk... this is a serious question... again I will quote Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots....

Yes people may have to die... yes that may mean you, or your kids.. or me... ARE YUO WILLING TO MAKE THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE?

Having served I know what that means, you don't... adn this is what we are talking abuot, about shared pain, shared experiences and that has dwindled to nothing. We are no longer Americans, but groups if disparate peoples with separate agendas... this is what the right has managed to do... and a draft may reverse that trend

Oh before you say it my nieces are on the line, as well as many kids I hepled raise

[Mandate My Ass]

93. Yes, I am

I'm much more willing to die here in the streets for a real democratic principle than to send other, younger people with their whole lives ahead of them to do die for the enrichment of the Bushes and their minions. Mkay?

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Then start planning how you are going to fight

because the final confrontation is coming and that confrontation INCLUDES a draft... this is the reality... you can stand on ANY principle YOU WANT... but the draft is coming, there is NOTHING you can do about it... NOTHING.. it is COMING

By the way, having seen a civil war, you have no clue... but that is another matter.

[Mandate My Ass]

98. Oooooh another insult, heee heee heee

methinks you might need to actually have a valid point rather than attacking.

I've been in the streets before and I'll do it again. Maybe I'll even see you there, oh tough one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. No yuo have not seen a civil war

I have...

And no it is NOT an insult... but you take it the way you want to

By the way MARCHING on the streets IS NOT the same as a hot civil war... if you think it is... oh well

[Mandate My Ass]

101. Well then

I guess I'm in for a new experience. Peace. LOL.

[MsTryska]

77. You make a good point....

it's not "fighting" the government, it is "being" the government.

[DistressedAmerican]

76. Exactly! You Get It!

[Mandate My Ass]

79. Riots are not going to stop the quagmire in Iraq

it's going to spread it to other countries. The more countries we invade, the less likely pullout becomes.

Pissing off soccer moms isn't going to get us out of Iraq. Sending more cannon fodder to carry out the PNAC plans for endless oil and world domination will turn the rest of the world against us in ways you can't imagine. This country will never recover from it which is the Bush plan anyway, our sacrifices for their gains. If that's what you want, feel free but don't attempt to send the youth of America to premature graves for an unlikely outcome only you seem to see.

A draft prolongs the agony and increases the body count, both at home and abroad. A marble monument doesn't resurrect the dead and is cold comfort for those whose children die in vain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. So to play devil's advocate

what is your solution?

I mean I speak to people and they go DSM Memos? What is that?

It gets worst... ask aruond how many people know that 1702 troops ahve died (last time I checked the number may be innacurate right now), don't even bother mentioning the Iraqi deaths, them are brown people.

Now why is that? And what will it take for the masses to finally go.. DMS, oh you mean Downing Street Memos and I CARE about the war dead?

[Mandate My Ass]

82. As I said to the OP

offering a bad idea does not require that someone either come up with another or jump on board. A draft is a horrible idea for many reasons but the most important is:

ESCALATION

It is both inevitable and disastrous and the loss of life would be massive before any tide of public opinion could change the Bush Imperial plans for world domination.

As a wise poster said up thread: In order to stop the war, stop the war. It's becoming more unpopular every day. Why give them what they want the most, a way to continue it and spread it to the other "evildoers."

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. so again to play devils advocate

how exactly are you going to stop the war?

Don't tell me that no draft will... may I present to you the wonderful world of Blackwell and Titan and other Mercenary Organizations. So it will be a little more costly in the short run, but it can be done. Hell I am almost willing to bet some planners are right now looking at how to effectively use Blackwell trained goons along side US Army troops.

(By the way I will sugest you read a nice piece of science fiction... called Armagedon 2089, it is a role playing game but the fluf will explain to you why you may be on the wrong foot here... they did a wonderful job of worst casing this... and the did NOT include a draft either)

[Mandate My Ass]

85. Why not tell you that no draft will stop the war?

I think the idea that it will is, to me, preposterous and I've given several reasons why I think so.

How does forcing people to fight a war that is decidedly unpopular, based on sustained record-setting recruitment shortfalls, make the war go away?


No fighters, no fight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Mercs will be used instead, you don't get it

they will continue this as long as they can

Their goals are two fold

1.- Control the middle east, Peak Oil and all of that

2.- Reform the US into a police state

They are very well on their way to doing this... and a Draft, believe it or not, may be the kidn of monkey wrench that our coke addled Emperor does not get. The army opposes a draft, for very good military reasons... but I suspect Bush does not undestand the OTHER reason... it DEMOCRATIZES the risk...

Oh and as to fighting in wars that are decidely unpopular, should I remind you that the first draft related riots happened during the Civil War which was a decidedly UNPOPULAR war? The ONLY war in US history where the draft was not fought was WW II.

Time to learn some history here... and realize the army is at a crux, and the draft is coming, so time to start planning how to deal with it. On the bright side, and yes there is a small bright side here... it may reverse many ugly trends in this country... or it may spark a civil war, a hot shooting civil war

[Mandate My Ass]

90. feh

I know history, thanks anyway.

Democratizes the risk? Thank you for the laugh. The risk will be taken where it always has been, by the common folk for the enrichment of the rich. It may be a monkey wrench, huh? Well when you're asking people to give their lives you might want to give them something a little more concrete than it might makes Smirk's day a little less sunshiney than all the other irresponsible, inept, greedy days have been.

The ugly trends are not going to go away by killing more people. That's another knee slapper.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. then I guess yuo are not willing to sacrifice

quite possibly your life, to regain the country

Thanks for playing.

This is what I am getting from you, but not ME, not MINE it will not do a thing?

And yes democratizing experience... it does do that...

[Mandate My Ass]

95. See above

I'll die here, a patriot, rather than send others to die in vain in an immoral theft of another country's resources.

I'm sure that image makes you very happy. :-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Nah it does not, for I fear yuo have no clue

what this entails

Many of us are seeing the end of this country.... and trying to reverse trends... but hey... be against the draft on principle, it is comming and if they realize that it will be their undoing, guess what? MERCS will be paid well

I am not kdding, READ Armagedon 2089

[Mandate My Ass]

100. I'm not kidding either

and once again no thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. And again you fail to tell anybody, apart of the no thank you

what is your alternative?

No the a bad proposal I don't have to counter does not wash.

[Mandate My Ass]

105. OK

Let's go on Times Square tonight at midnight and bite the heads off baby kittens and state our demand that George Bush will have to withdraw the troops from Iraq or the kittens get it.

Everybody loves kittens. I have seen the proof with my very own eyes and perhaps you haven't but that don't mean diddley squat. What I've seen is irrefutably true and because anything true cannot be false, I have made my case.

I fully and completely believe not only that biting the heads off of these kittens will work but that the sacrifice of little itty bitty kitty lives will not have been in vain.

It's a 100% certainty and just saying "no it won't" doesn't mean piffle to me.

See how that works?

Nah, didn't think so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Something taht works, not this out of my arse

becasue I am getting pressured

Many years ago I learned, when critizing something you DO NEED a valid solution or people WILL dismiss you.

By the way one solution that I hate but I am sure planners are considering, is FULLY PRIVATIZING the US military, aka Mercs... hired across the world.. hey it will keep your kids out of it... and the war will continue to expand and no pain for us...

[Mandate My Ass]

113. Out of my arse

Out of your arse.

It's all still shit. What's the diff?

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. You have YET to give a creative solution to the problem

hell no will not work....

wake up and smell the coffee, it is coming, so what are you going to do to protect those you love? By the way Canada is NO longer an option....

[Mandate My Ass]

121. It's coming so I should not oppose it

in order to protect the ones I love? :rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. no did not say that, how exactly are you going to

EFECTIVELY OPPOSE IT? You ahve yet to give any solution except things that don't work... and the Bush cannot be stopped rethoric

[Mandate My Ass]

143. By not supporting it

D'uh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. Again you are not giving any actual solutions

I will give you an example, I spent lunch with a kid and his fiancee that we feel we had a strong hand raising. He is in college, Engineering, and she just graduated with a film degree...

Inevitably as it almost seem to be the case, the conversation went into the coming draft. They have noticed all them crazy numbers of not meeting quotas... they, unlike you, have put two plus two together, and since it will be THEM who face that draft they asked, what do they do?

Se we spent lunch hour literally reviewing options, including how to prepare a Conscientious Objector file and dispelling myths such as... but I am in college, wrong you will end your semester or your best choice ROTC... but you are in the army now...

So here we were going, no, hell no we won't go, but how to do the hell no we won't go... in PRACTICAL ways... this is what you are missing... you need to be practical and yuo are hiding in platitudes.

[DistressedAmerican]

218. Good For You! I Teach College And Can Tell You Most Kids Are Not Even

thinking about the war here. They would wake up overnight if a draft was seriously proposed.

You are helping these anti-war patriots with practical solutions. That is what we need more of!

[Ron Green]

104. Actually, I think that the unpopularity of the Vietnam War among drafted

soldiers had a significant effect on its unpopularity at home, and the subsequent exit. During my hitch I saw and felt the tenor of the times change among the enlisted ranks during those years from '66 to '69, running a considerable period ahead of the same shift among the civilian US population.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Which actually matches what historians have found

out as welll... and even McNamara admited it many years later.

this is what people forget

[Mandate My Ass]

110. Well it ain't the 70's no more

And GWBush thinks millions taking to the streets worldwide to protest, for the first time in history, before a war has even started, is nothing more than a focus group.

The MSM says the same thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Ok so we agree demonstrations do not work

so more reason to get a draft going, draftees are just a focus group and so are their families.. so how exactly are you going to fight them?

THINK

[Mandate My Ass]

115. Not with a draft

that means many dead for no reason, and no repercussions.

You might want to try that thinking thingy yourself one day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. I have and I realize one is coming and there is NOTHING I can do

to stop it.

So time to think how to deal wiht it... and telling kids, CO status kids, go for it... CO status.

I choose my battles and trying to stop a draft will not work, as this is a reality...

[DistressedAmerican]

120. Again Your Surrender To Helplessness Just Gives Them What They Want!

Bush won't listen to overwhelming public outcry to end the war!

No The media won't listen!

No, I don't have a better plan. How dare you ask me for one?

Here's my question: After all of these posts, have you contributed a single positive or useful idea? Or do you spend all of your time on the attack with nothing to offer in exchange?

Criticism without any original or constructive ideas is just that.

Your posts have made it quite clear that as far as you are concerned, Bush is unstoppable and we should just sit around and bitch.

Pardon me If I find that a less than satisfactory approach!

[Mandate My Ass]

148. No we should not just sit and bitch

but adding to the death toll by supporting a draft is, ummmm, what's the word?

Oh, yeah...

INSANE!

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. What you believe or not truly at this point does not matter

we are at a crux.. bush knows he needs a draft... the military does not want one for many good and valid reasons... but sooner or later they will have to implement one and they are gearing up for one.

I will tell you, it is comming... and it truly does not matter what many of us believe or not at this point.

What matters is... we need to start gearing up for protests, hold it them don't work... if you don't believe me... when exactly did you see them?

Will it accelerate the shifting sand so opinion? Yes... will it stop this madness, there are days I fear it will take WW III to be honest.

[Mandate My Ass]

65. I believe it's coming too

That's one of several reasons why I am vehemently against supporting one. I will not hand them my child on a silver platter nor will I hand them anyone else's. This would be a PNAC dream come true. Escalation. If we're bogged down on more than one front, which is sure to happen when they have more troops to spread around, we become vulnerable to many evils that did not exist 30 years ago.

The world is against us. That's something else to consider before we start invading more countries who've done nothing to justify it. Coalitions of other countries would love to see us that vulnerable, pouring the blood of our children and our resources down an endless sucking drain of greedy and corrupt military contractors with ties to the Bush family and friends. They would almost certainly act in ways seen and unseen to make sure we get bogged down everywhere we go. Their worries of being the next imperial target would cease.

I also believe we'd see more terrorist attacks at home. We've opened a Pandora's box and we're hoping that enraging some soccer moms will close it.

Not gonna happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. As i said this is a crux

the military does not want it

They will try the McNamara's kids program (They have already lowered standards and all that, and judges are starting to say, prison or army)

When it does not work, and it will not... the next step IS a draft. This is the reality of the situation.

What I fear is that this will end in either of two outcomes... civil war, which this country will not survive.. yes they are priming the masses for that.

Invasion and occupation after we loose WW III. Again, this country will not survive that.

Does this make me happy? Nope, we have a very small window to get these internal enemies out of power and preferably tried. The announcement of a draft, which is comming, may be part of that window and that is why the military may be against it... they know... it did bring them to their knees... am I happy that kids will pay the price? nope, but as a former medic it may the necessary triage to wake the masses to the true horrors of war. What we are doing is not working... in that sense I agree with the original poster. Will massive demonstrations make it to the evening teevee? Not in the begining, but a shooting civil war just may... and a draft may be one of the trigers. I will contend as I have for the last three years that we are in the midst of a civil war already, this is just the cold phase that comes before the hot phase and I will contend it started in 1996

Now all comparisons to WW II are wrong. Why? There was a draft, but also the day after Pearl Harbor they had to turn people away from volunteering since they did not have enough slots to train people. The same did not happen after 9.11... heck I was turned down from the Air Force because my hubby was already on patrol on the war zone. Afthanistan (and I will contend Saudi Arabia) were valid targets after 9.11, we have just screwed the pooch in massive ways. But there was a casus belli for Afghanistan, but obviously not for Iraq.

Now I will leave you with Jefferson's words as they do apply today, "The tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots from time to time."

[Fescue4u]

64. How many unwilling Americans are you willing to Kill?

If you oppose the war, how on Earth does it makes sense to sacrifice the lives of MORE Americans to stop the senseless killing?

Right now, the volunter army is fighting a war they signed up for. Sure the war is wrong but at least the participants dug their own grave.

Now to stop this the senseless killing, you are proposing to drag young Americans away from their homes to be killed.....All in the hopes that the killing will stop.

Sorry..not buying it.

The best way to stop the war is to stop the war.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fescue4u]

137. you missed the point entirely

Im not slaming the armed forces. Im saying they choose to be there. They choose to accept the risk. They choose to die if necessary to protect our rights.

I am asking you how many unwilling Americans are you will to kill in a war, to show that killing in a war is wrong?

And yes, I talk to vets quite often, especially at family gatherings...

[DistressedAmerican]

140. "The best way to stop the war is to stop the war." Sounds Great!

Where's your magic wand to get it done? At least this is a plan. What do you proposed to just "Stop the war" and how well has that been working for you?

As to choice. Many recruits have been lied too. Others join because the economy is bad and vcan't find a job. Others sign up to pay for college. Anyone that ignores the economics behind the all volunteer army consigns the poor to do all of the fighting. Is that fair?

How many is enough for me? ONE! It never should have begun and now we must stop it as quickly as possible for our sake and theirs.

My question to you is how long are you willing to let the killing continue before you are ready to make a change?

The current plan is costing us several Americans and dozens of Iraqi's every day.

There is no magic way to stop the war. It is all well and good to say we should stop the war by stopping the war. Hell, while we are working on it lets end racism by ending racism or maybe we should just end world hunger by feeding everyone.

More will die before we are out of there. I am looking for a way to make that the smallest possible number. I think the public pressure to end the war created by a draft would make a positive change and end this war with fewer total casualties.

I may be wrong. But, I know what we are doing NOW isn't working. Any clinging to that status quo is costing lives.

[Fescue4u]

165. The magic wand is an ink pen.

writing an executive order.

The president could end this war, and have the people home in 30 days should he choose to do so.


It is fair that those who signed up to fight wars and kill people, actually fight wars and kill people.

It is not fair that those who decline to do so, be forced to fight wars and kill.

And im sorry, but we've been in one mini war after another for last 10 years. Anyone who signed up in the last 10 years knew what they were getting into. Anyone signed up prior to the last decade has had plenty of chances to get out.

[DistressedAmerican]

175. So You Will Stop The War With A Stroke Of Bush's Pen?

That is your plan? What do you plan on doing when Bush does not sign such and executive order? How do you plan on motivating him to do that?

Why do you continue to ignore the economic factors that drive enlistment in the all volunteer force? The facts are plain. People that have signed up on the whole do so for economic reasons.

I'll ask again, is it fair for the poor to carry the burden?

[Fescue4u]

225. Me? No IM nobody

I just told you what needs to happen to end the war.

btw, how do you plan on motivating Bush to start the Draft?

(using the same exact pen I described above I might add)

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. Rumor has it he wants one now

he even said such during the campaign... the one time he spoke the truth, about not having a volunteer military no longer... he is motivated enough... OTHERS in his entourage REALIZE the problems with a draft... some of them, mass mobilization

[DistressedAmerican]

230. We do not need Bush for a draft. We need congress.

Rangle has been floating a bill for quite a while. There are others that can be brought on board. That is how I'd make my moves.

Bush will never want it as it is political suicide for him.

Practical plans...

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. I will give you TWO concrete examples of lies told by recruiters

now try to follow ok.

Recruit number one... yep you can go to airborne school and become a paratrooper. Yep that will be fun....

Will I be sent to the warzone?

No, man you will serve your ToD in Europe...

When the kid told us this, the three of us who have been in contact with the military laughed...

Did I mention he is in Afghanistan right now?

Marine, he was promised engine mechanic training, they lost his papers in basic, so they claim. He is now a cook...

[Fescue4u]

224. Welcome to real world

I've been lied to many times myself. Some of those lives have changed my life, or a made life changing decision based on them.

Doenst make it right of course.


Thats why I try look at whats really happening and not blindly follow like a sheep.

All the mini wars we've been in for the last 10/15 years has been no secret. Anyone watching the news should know that joining the military means fighting a war.

Anyway, I don't know why you a pursuing this line.

Im saying that people shouldnt be forced into the situation that you describe quite aptly as "working" for a bunch of liars.

Just because somepeople volunteer to be exploited, doesnt mean that everyone else should to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

228. And yuo keep conveniently ignoring the economics

behind the volunteer army....

But hey whatever trips your trigger...

Oh and you are ASKING an 18 year old to be able to remember the wars over the last 15 years? Geez louis most of them are truly not fully aware we are at war in Iraq... let alone that we have troops in Bosnia, or for that matter that we had a nice little war in Grenada or Panama...

Social Studies in school usually, when you are lucky, reach all the way to WW II... and most kids DON'T watch the news

So how exactly are you going to get over this?

Oh and watch 9.11... who did the Marines go to? Oh yes the mall where the poor gather... you care to tell me why?

[DistressedAmerican]

234. Simple Ignores The Class Issues! Won't Discuss It With Direct Questioning

Let me summarize.

Does not believe in a draft. Those that signed up deserve whatever they get (regardless of why they signed up). Lied to? Sure but they should have known better.

No new ideas to offer for plans on ending the war.

I think that about gets it.

[Fescue4u]

236. Let me sum up your position

Kill some unwilling Americans to show that killing people is wrong.

How many innocents do you think you would have to kill before the rest of America see it your way?

[nadinbrzezinski]

239. let me sum some history

Civil War... the draft led to DRAFT RIOTS.... and soem abuses by the feds.

1898 no need for one, as must bought the drivel over the Maine

1917 see above, Lusitania

1941 people VOLUNTEERED but they had to be turned away

Vietnam, it was the Draft taht led to that rise of consciousness that this was is wrong

This time around people already have that nagging suspicion, amke it personal and they will surely wake up... adn DO SOMETHING about it

by the way, how is waht we are doing right now working? We are out of Iraq? Didn't think so.

By the way I will state this right now... I don't want to see kids die, but we already HAVE a draft... it is AN ECONOMIC DRAFT... and a back door draft.

Maybe if we share the pain ACROSS the society... then people will get it, INCLUDING YOU. And for the record, one is coming... the back of the army is broken...

[Fescue4u]

241. Not buying it

A history of blood and misery is not an excuse to create more blood and misery.

I ask again.

How many unwilling Americans do you think must be sacrificed on your gamble?

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. I ask again give me a PRACTICAL alternative

and those who refuse to learn form history are condemned to repeat it... I offer history as guidance.

So tell me how exactly are you planning to raise the consciousness of scared shitless, comfortable Middle Class Americans that they need to actively resist this war? Oh yes teach ins... demonstrations, talking to people.... for many UNTIL the pain is personal it does not matter...and just like yuo, well they signed for it... so why SHOULD I CARE? I just care about making some money (valid concern) and paying them bills and the war is not real, truly, to me

So what is your alternative to makgn the war a kitchen table matter that WILL MOBILIZE the masses and how many of these poor draftees, yes lets use the real word, are YOU willing to sacrifice because they signed for it?

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

251. Blood lust? Bud those of us who have been in combat abhor war

far more than you will ever understand... nice platitudes, so yuo think they will declare victory and come home?

Right... that is why they are building nine bases in Iraq and sixteen in Afghanistn.

[DistressedAmerican]

257. Your Hollow Platitudes And Lack Of Concrete Suggestions Sicken Me!

If you insist on being snarky about it.

But what the hell, they all enlisted, knowing the history of the past 15 years, and under no recruiter created false pretenses.

Of course that brings us back to the the thing you KEEP ducking:
(I'll Put In Bold) ECONOMIC AND RACIAL FACTORS.

Please address that if you would. How long are you going to keep letting them get steamrolled into the Bush machine before you realize that doing the same thing we have been, talking and saying great and positive things about ending the war is not stopping it.?

The words sound great. But, they are changing NOTHING.

Again let me remind you of the strength of your reaction to the mere theoretical discussion of the concept. American would feel a lot like you do. But more so. And you do not think that would change the equation?

The war continues. Most think continues to escalate...

[DistressedAmerican]

243. Less Than If Those That Die Are Written Off As Volunteers That Knew

what they were in for.

Less than if many of those doing the dying (and KILLING) are paid mercenaries for private corporations and as such not part of official death tolls.

Less than if the poor and minority community continue to do our dying for us while the middle class and upper classes do not really support the war. But, also do not actively oppose it.

In short, less than if we keep doing exactly what we are doing.

I have no exact estimate. I do not know EXACTLY what it will take under either scenario. I expected we would have arrived at that number long ago.

You'd think that over 1,700 American dead and 100,000 Iraqi dead would be just about enough for anyone! I guess I was wrong about that.

How about you? How many deaths will it take before America wakes up as we persue the status quo that got us here as blindly as Bush demands that we need to "stay the course"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. 1700 have died? Hold it, not on my news, about Shiavo

and jacko, you know and I know that the only way to get over the Stenography Corp cancelling the news if for local kids who did not want to be there to face the music...

How many will die? I really do not know, my worst case scenario inclues a civil war and the disolution of the Union... truly I fear the Right Wing's wet dream, but that is antoher matter entirely

[DistressedAmerican]

256. Liberal Media Bias!

[DistressedAmerican]

78. Economics Dug The Graves Of Those Participating Today

Just as they are digging the graves of the poor Iraqis that are signing up to join the police and national guard. To blame them for their signing up is no answer!

[Fescue4u]

138. see above.

Im not blaming vets.

Im blaming people who want to see more innocents die, in hopes of proving that making innocents die is bad.

[DistressedAmerican]

141. Never implied you were. Just that saying "Hey, They Knew The Risks"

is bullshit.

Economics drove most that serve today into their positions. The army is not full of patriotic rich folks. It is composed primarily of the lowest stratum of society. These folks joined for a job and for an education.

Bad choice, I admit but not cause to talk like they are basically getting hat they deserve.

Justifying their deaths because they put their name on the line completely ignores the reasons that people really sign up.

Most certainly did not sign up to fight in Iraq!

You completely ignore the notion that this may actually end the war with less casualties. That is what we all want. You may not agree but, claiming I want more innocents to die is simply bullshit and nothing less.

Have a little respect for the rest of us. Were not idiots nor are we warmongers. Stop acting like we are and enter into a real dialog maybe we can come up woth something that makes sense to all of us!

[Fescue4u]

167. Not justifying their deaths

Just saying that throwing more bodys onto the fire, ESPECIALLY those that had no say in their participation is even more wrong.

///You completely ignore the notion that this may actually end the war with less casualties//

Will you sacrifice your childs life for your gamble?

You complete ignore the notion that killing more unwilling participants might totally fail.

[Fescue4u]

169. A Freeper told me once, Kerry is the Ticket to a Draft

That Bush would never have the moral authority or backing to implement a draft.

But that Kerry would, because he didnt start the mess and could justify a draft as a way to end the war that Bush started, and that he would have the moral authority (being a vet himself), to order our children to die in Iraq.

I thought he was crazy.

Now that I read this thread, I think he might be right.

No. It won't be Republicans who start an immoral draft. I'll be our own doing it for a "greater good"

Could it be, that the only reason we don't have a draft now, is because Bush stole the election? Reading this thead, I think its quite possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. The army does not want one

but you surely missed bush saying during the campaign that the volunteeer military would be history.

Bush wants one, he knows that the PNAC plans need one

The military for valid military reasons don't want one

Some of Bush'a advisors also do not want one, due to the forced awakening and resistance taht it will engender. If yuo think we won't have a draft UNDER BUSH, I have some beach front property in Nevada, and a bridge to sell you, CHEAP

[Goldmund]

150. "the participants dug their own grave"

Um... You're forgetting the 100K+ participants who did not die wearing the American uniform and did not "dig their own grave".

The American voter who had nothing to lose dug it for them.

[Fescue4u]

171. Not forgetting...just not discussing them at the moment

///Um... You're forgetting the 100K+ participants who did not die wearing the American uniform and did not "dig their own grave".///


So do you really think that sending MORE people over to kill those non Americans, will help save them?

Kinda like destroying a village to save it eh?

[Goldmund]

177. No.

We need to distinguish between two things:

I do NOT support starting drafts when we're already knee-deep in shit, that we got into because to the average American joe, war means a little "rah rah" and some fireworks on CNN.

I DO support making the draft permanent and effective for EVERY war.

"Not forgetting...just not discussing them at the moment" -- well, but we are. When America goes to war, it isn't only Americans who die. So we can't discuss the ethics of American war-making without talking about "them".

[stanwyck]

71. Why do we act as though military service

is the only way to serve your country? We keep talking as though military service is the only patriotic service we have. Not true. We need our young people here -- inventing new ways for all people to live better lives. We need scientists and teachers. And doctors. My son wanted to be in the military. He is. That's the way it should be.
He is not a better person than his friends who are in college learning accounting or computer technology or graphic arts. He made a different choice.
Let's not make that choice for all young people. We need them in the military. And here at home. Equally.
A draft drains our country of potential. Think of the time lost as we send so many young people overseas. Time they could be in a lab, or teaching a child to read. England lost a generation in WWII. They didn't have a choice. They were attacked. We have a choice. Let's not make our future even more challenging by forfeiting all the creativity and solutions our young people have by sending them to fight a war that never should have begun.

[Ron Green]

75. I don't think that timed served is time lost.

If a young person can't take off 2 years from his schooling to experience being away from home in service to his country, and all the attendant growth and learning that comes from this, then he's on a very self-absorbed path indeed. Consider how much more mature is a well-traveled 20-year-old as he faces his college or work training, than is an 18-year-old straight out of high school!

For the record, I am a disabled US Army vet with two draft-age children, and I've been marching in the street against this bullshit Bush war since fall of 2002.

If we had an army full of draftees, we wouldn't be in Iraq now, IMHO.

[stanwyck]

108. point taken

it shouldn't be "time lost". (my son is on his second tour of Iraq - USMC.) But...a draft to support this invasion of a country with no exit strategy and no understanding of who we're fighting and who will govern when we leave would have devastating effects in America's future in "time lost" for what these people could be accomplishing.
Although your suggestion of 2 years service is one we should contemplate. As long as it includes non-combat service.
(and in Iraq, there is no non-combat. If you're there, you're in combat.)

[ogradda]

74. Eerrr...as the mother of 2 children in their early 20's

and the aunt of 2 in their late teens.......not liking that idea.

[Independent_Liberal]

89. A draft would be the end of the GOP!

I'm not kidding! It will be over for their party!

And don't worry about the voting machines. People already know that they've been cheating. They'll never try to steal another election again.

[radar]

96. I hadn't seen mention of 1 thing...

Draftees wouldn't stay quiet if they disagree with leadership.

All the bad things Iraqi civilians say happen but are not getting greater publicity here in the states is because the volunteer soldiers don't confirm anything that might hurt themselves. The ol' CYA (cover your ass) or "do my time & go home alive." Many volunteers join to improve themselves with the benefits or to make it a career while potential draftees have something on the outside they were pulled away from. Between the 2 groups - who is liable to point out the "bad apples" in a military hierarchy?



"...when they get screwed over by a desperate Pentagon's makeshift policies...these "volunteers" salute, suck it up and lay their lives on the line.
...Volunteers tend to go with the flow and seldom blow the whistle on military stupidity, flawed tactics and self-serving leadership. And draftees don't hesitate to make waves and tell the truth."
David Hackworth: Uncle Sam Will Soon Want Your Kids October 4, 2004
http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hackworth_100404,00.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. I know one reason the military does not want draftees

[MsTryska]

111. are you serious?

because draftees will stir the pot?


what other reasons doesn't the military want them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Generally speaking drafteees are not given most of the

A-Schools troops get. Most troops take anywhere from a year to three years to train for combat duty... before a deployment, depending on MOS. Even a line infantry grunt gets bootcamp and then advanced infantry school, a year. This costs you, the taxpayer, about 100,000 dollars. The army does not want to invest this money on troops that will be gone, mostly, by the time their mandatory hitch is up. Hence they usually get lowered training aka, bootcamp and if they are lucky a limited version of infantry school... only those who make it a career will get those schools after they sign up for a second tour.

In a way it lowers the quality of the combat force.

[DistressedAmerican]

106. Excellent Point! I Had Not Thought Of It In Those Terms!

Draftees would make a stink! Their families would make a stink. Their communities would too!

[tinfoilinfor2005]

114. Not just no but Hell No.

The end doesn't justify the means when the means are the lives of our kids. Here's a better idea...just get the hell out of that hell.

[Mandate My Ass]

118. Making sense on this thread will get you flamed

So stop it and get with the program. As a matter of fact, just kill your kids yourself. Conservation. Eliminate the middle man. :crazy:

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Well quite frankly I see that kind of helplessness

all over, but that may precede a general wake up call

Now here is one solution that COULD work if this is implemented

National STRIKE... nothign like that was tried in the 1960s, but a generalized strike that brought the country to a complete halt woudl surely be covered even by the stenography corp and make a point

[DistressedAmerican]

127. The Problem With That Is That If There Were The Numbers For A

national strike, we'd already have the numbers to end this disasterous war. It is all about public sentiment and willingness to oppose. Most do not support this war but, neither do they actively oppose it. That is the apathy we must confront.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. I know I know

you forget to add fear...

I was talking to a friend, and she refuses to do a thing for fear of ending in a "list" that will mean she cannot make a living any more. She only cares right now about that... I also see that she has been cowed into silence.

That is the other element that was not that present in the 60s... a fascist take over, as bad as tricky dick was, can we have him back?

For the moment as much as I hate it, a draft will jolt people.. and maybe we will get the numbers necessary for... a national strike.

:-)

[DistressedAmerican]

130. I See That All Of The Time! I Will Not Cower Before These Fascists!

My Name Is Brad Russell! I oppose this war and the regime that launched it!

I don't freaking care who knows it! Fascists or no fascists!

You are dead on about Nixon! It really is sad when a president makes Nixon look palatable by comparison!

A recent bumper sticker I designed for your edification:

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. LOL

by the way I have done my share of things, so I am sure my file at FBI has really gotten large

Hey boys... enjoy the reading....

Hope you enjoy it.

:-)

Now let me give some practical solutions to the locals scraeming

First off, one is coming, no doubt in my mind

So how to protect your kids?

START working on the CO file RIGHT NOW, and realize that even then your kid may end serving in a non combat support role (medic).

Realize military service IS honorable... and whether we suport this madeness or not, we need to suport the troops not wiht magnets mind you, but legislation pay and gear... as well as care pacakges, they have no choice and lack of suport will only make them suceptible to RW spin.

Fight this in the courts (If they make this a male only affair, class action suit folks)

Demand that the kids of the well to do ALSO serve. No I don't expect teh Bush Twins to be drafted... and if they are, under high pressure, there are valid reasons (security) why they will never see a front line... but oh boy their nails may break.

Continue to hammmer the idea that we are in this bind beause the Republicans are bad for the military, bad for national security and ba for America... hammer this point repeteadly... until you are blue in the face

As much as I hate a draft... when it comes use this to emphasize the above points wiht the all of a sudden hit in the gut many sheeple will receive.

Remember tehy are already spining this as lack of patriotism... time to recapture that from the fascist

As to names, funny I post under mine

:-)

[DistressedAmerican]

134. We Need More Like You! Great Post And Practical Suggestions!

Hi agent Mike! :hi:

Hope you are keeping a list and that my frwaking name is right there at the top! Well maybe second after nadinbrzezinski!

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. Well Agent Mike

has had me lamblast him many a times with a copy of the constitution you know

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

170. I Will Not Even Begin To List The Actions I Have Taken Against This Regime

I have no need to justify myself to you. I work my ass off almost everyday to fight these pigs.

Your attack on my credibility is as pointless as the rest of your posts have been!

What do you do? What have you contributed? You do not even contribute to the discussion here!

So, "tough guy" what concrete actions are you taking to end the waror are you just sitting on an internet message board attacking those of us that are making a sincere effort to make some change for the better?

You bitch that people ignore your pointless criticisms but, you have yet to reply to my first request for your plan (way back around post #45). You have continued every request for constructive input that has followed.

Unless you have some actual constructive input (not childish insults), this is my last reply to you.

I have given you chance after chance to make a valid argument for an alternative solution to the issue. From your consistent refusal to respond to the question, I can only assume that you do not have one.

This idiotic back and forth is a waste of my time!

[Mandate My Ass]

182. Your idea sucks, truly it does

and not supporting a harebrained plan is and alternative.

I don't have to justify myself to you either. I have stated repeatedly in this thread that I would rather die here on American soil to prevent the fascists from sending one more young person unwillingly to their death for an illegal invasion. You support the other option.

You come up far short on both morality and rational debate.

Sigh, so you're tired of me so soon? I was just having so much fun here too. Darn. ;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. But you have yet to give a PRACTICAL solution or

alternative... full of sound of fury I suspect

[name not needed]

185. Finally, something in this thread that makes sense!

You! Send your children to die! I'll stay here and inflate my ego! :rofl:

[tinfoilinfor2005]

135. oh, oh...someone needs a nap...

[Mandate My Ass]

147. A clue would be nice too

But it looks like it ain't happening. LOL.

[radar]

123. That'd be my 1st choice

Get out of Iraq.

[DistressedAmerican]

125. I'm All For That! HOW? Please Tell Me How! Wave A Magic Wand?

I am proposing a plan to actually get us the hell out. What other options can you offer? Just saying. "get the hell out" changes NOTHING!

[Fescue4u]

238. The magic pen is the executive pen

Better than your magic bullet to the heads of countless unwilling Americans.

[tex-wyo-dem]

129. Hate to say this, but...

you are absolutely right.

The American people are living in a bubble. We are at war (supposedly), yet your everyday American has not been asked to sacrifice at all. The war in Iraq is not real to them.

A draft would be like a sudden punch in the gut and you can bet there would be a huge backlash.

[Fescue4u]

139. The BEST WAY to end the war.

Is to end the war.

Killing a bunch of unwilling participants to show that killing people is wrong is a bit nutty.

[DistressedAmerican]

142. I'll Ask Again: HOW? How Do You Suggest We Do That?

End the war by ending the war?

End racism by ending racism?

End homelessness by giving everyone a home?

And hunger by feeding the world?

HOW? They all sound great. But, as always the devil is in the details. I'm sure some freeps would consider just nuking the whole damn region "Ending the war".

Just saying stop will not make it go away. We need a real plan. End the war by ending the war is not a plan...

[Mandate My Ass]

146. HAHAHAHAHA!

Common sense is like kryptonite to these loons. I can't wait to watch the exploding (but sadly empty) heads.

:popcorn:

[DistressedAmerican]

151. Last Chance. Do You Have Any Ideas? Or Are You Just Here

to bash on those of us that are trying to make a difference.

You have yet to contribute a single constructive idea to this discussion. If "end the war by ending the war" is your idea of commonsense, we will be at this for years to come!

Insults are pointless. Hollow criticism based on exaggerated straw man arguements are useless.

Why are you wasting everyone's time with your pointless criticisms and lack of constructive ideas?

[Goldmund]

152. Here's some common sense for you:

Unwilling participants are being killed by the thousands already. Their skin may be brown but that doesn't make them any less worthy.

And you know why they are all being killed? Because American politicians profit from wars, thanks to voters who have nothing to lose.

[Mandate My Ass]

154. Yeah

So let's give them more unwilling cannon fodder to kill more brown people.

LOL. Cuckoobananas has nothing on you guys.

[DistressedAmerican]

155. ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE? ANYTHING?

[Goldmund]

156. That's pretty short-sighted.

I don't support toggled draft, when they convice people to go to war while telling them there won't be a draft, and then turn around and start it up.

I support a constitutional amendment to make it permanent. For every war.

Let me ask you a simple question: had there been a draft, do you think that "WMD"s and "Mushroom clouds" and waving some drawings in front of the UN would have convinced Americans to go to war? Do you think that Bush would have dared to start a war?

Answer that honestly.

[DistressedAmerican]

144. Does Anyone That Is Opposed To This Plan Have A Credible Alternative?

So for I have heard, "I don't need a plan. Yours is crazy." and "End the war by ending the war." Let's not forget the "I have son so, NO!" replies.

Oddly when I inquire for how they would bring this disaster to a close, it is like they never read the post!

I am open to ideas here! I just want this wrpped as quickly and with the minimum casualties possible. I think this may be the best route open to us at this point.

If I am wrong, I'd love to hear another plan!

[radar]

157. Get rid of the American/other foreign contractors monopoly

On rebuilding Iraq. Turn over the work, ownership, responsibility to the guys that live there. (Cradle of civilization started there - Tigris & Euphrates - they should have a pretty good idea how to build shit that lasts.) They'd have a much bigger interest in seeing the work thru & defending things & even pointing out the "badguys" in a crowd trying to destoy stuff; if they had more input.

Iraqis doing the labor for foreigners hiding in the relative safety of security patrolled compounds; getting by paycheck to paycheck while outsiders that don't speak the local language make a nice profit; and it doesn't matter how long the rebuilding takes to the foreigners - "these things take time, it's hard work!"

[Goldmund]

158. That's what you would do if you were in power.

But what do you suggest would motivate those who are in power to do that?

[radar]

161. Heh - either GOD or aliens with superior firepower...

Showing up and telling the guys in charge how it's gonna be.

hehe

Otherwise ????

[Goldmund]

162. Otherwise

...change the political equation of starting unnecessary wars for them.

That's what we're talking about here.

[Goldmund]

145. I wholeheartedly agree.

I've been saying this for a while.

People think in terms of available choices. In a country where people have been groomed to think that lives of their own citizens are inherently more valuable than lives of others (which is, granted, not a uniquely American phenomenon), and there is no draft, the choices offered are: We either go to war and blow up some towelheads and lose some kids from poor neighborhoods that, after all, volunteered to serve, or (insert a half-assed invented threat). The half-assed threat overweighs the risk of going to war in many people's minds, because that risk is not to them personally.

Bring back the draft, and half-assed justifications won't be enough; justifications will have to compete with the risk of being drafted and hauled off to fight. It is only justifications like that which SHOULD be good reasons to go to war, to begin with. If people are convinced that their houses will be bombed if we don't go to war, a draft will not hurt politicans; if they aren't, then we shouldn't go to war in the first place.

Either way, people in other countries are having their houses bombed because the American voter is so easy on the trigger.

The absence of draft is a bonanza for American imperialists.

[B Calm]

149. Military service should be mandatory when one turns 20 years old.

No exceptions!

[noonwitch]

160. I do not want my cousins drafted and sent to die in Iraq

I respect and honor those who volunteer for military service. Bush should have thought about stretching the military so tightly before he unnecessarily invaded Iraq.

[DistressedAmerican]

164. If You Think I Posted This For Bush's Benefit, Read Again!

I think the draft would be a disaster for Bushco. We have to change the public opinion dynamic or these guys have NO motivation to stop.

What do you suggest we do? More of the same? Just let the deaths continue to mount?

It is time for a change of strategy.

[elperromagico]

166. Who gets drafted?

And don't give me some crap about a fair system where everybody gets drafted and everybody has to go. You know damned well it doesn't work that way.

The Republicans (remember them? they're the ones with all the power) are just fine with drafting the poor and the minorities to fight their wars of personal enrichment. If there is a draft, it won't be fair. The children of privilege and power won't go. 21st century champagne squadrons will pop up all over the country.

But fine. Let's have a draft. More people will oppose the war, not that that matters.

Bush and Co will just build bigger "free speech zones."

[Goldmund]

168. The privileged are a tiny minority,

and they can't rule without the support of around a half of the rest.

As far as "More people will oppose the war, not that that matters. Bush and Co will just build bigger "free speech zones."" -- to wage the kind of imperial policy that they are waging, if there were a draft, they would literally need to suspend democracy -- outwardly and blatantly. And they aren't omnipotent.

[elperromagico]

172. And yet, reading around here,

I see that a great many people feel that Bush cheated and stole the election.

If that's the case, what difference would popular support make to the Republicans?

[Goldmund]

174. Those who believe he cheated...

...believe he stole a percent or three, not 20 or 30 percent. I think we all agree that would be impossible. That's why I said "around a half", and also, you can witness right now that the low popular support is definitely hurting Bush's agenda -- even if it's only measured by polls. He can't do the things he could do in October 2001.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. There is an old saying from actually the military

Leadership is by example and if yuo lead the charge (metaphorically they are) and nobody follows, yuo deserve what you will get.

Tehy stole it yes, but by changing enough votes to affect the result... not stealing every vote.

Now not that it will happen immediately, but what will happen when the people rise up in riots (Has happened durings drafts), or simply run a national strike (would be a first for the united states)

Unfortunately the first step is making sure people feel there is a war... read the stories of WW II... PEOPLE KNEW there was a war... not only becuase dad left, or son left, but because there were shortages and rationing.

I am sure you have haerd these idiots compare this to WW II (Bad comparison)... well lets make it feel like WW II and lets see if they have the leadership to lead us through WW III... I am willing to bet that massive demonstrations (as massive as the ones before the war were), and a national strike taht brings the country to a halt will be noticed, even by the lapdog media.

But the first step, people need to feel the pain.

[Fescue4u]

173. A Freeper told me once, Kerry is the Ticket to a Draft

That Bush would never have the moral authority or backing to implement a draft.

But that Kerry would, because he didnt start the mess and could justify a draft as a way to end the war that Bush started, and that he would have the moral authority (being a vet himself), to order our children to die in Iraq.

I thought he was crazy.

Now that I read this thread, I think he might be right.

No. It won't be Republicans who start an immoral draft. I'll be our own doing it for a "greater good"

Could it be, that the only reason we don't have a draft now, is because Bush stole the election? Reading this thead, I think its quite possible.

[Goldmund]

176. Why is it immoral?

And what do you think about the morality of the US elite unleashing US Military on wherever their whims take them because they know it will politically cost them nothing?

[Fescue4u]

222. The same reason slavery is immoral.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. False analogy

A draft is part of livign in the nation, shared sacrifice... Slavery is neither....

Thuis is also very much a libertarian talking point... suffice it to say the abuses taht go on in a draftee army (they do happen) pale in comparison to the abuses that went on during slavery. We ahve not used caning or a cat of nine tails for over a century.

Oh and on add, will yuo also declare the Draftee Army of WW II immoral? Mind you the casus belli was just, and the war is the closest to a Just War in oh centuries...

[Fescue4u]

226. Its not analogy.

Its exactly the same damn thing.

Being Drafted *IS* is the making of a slave.

[nadinbrzezinski]

231. No it is not

a slave CANNOT get out of it... a potencial draftee can... Conscientious Objector status for example... pass it on, that will be one way for kids to avoid it.

[Fescue4u]

232. Perhaps you should join the Bush administration

I bet they could use a chap like you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. Ah personal attacks after the strraw man no longer works

I bet I have been fighting these bastards longer than you have...

But I also realize strawmen don't work

[Fescue4u]

237. Neither does killing unwilling participants.

Lets see. Bush wants a draft. You want a draft.

You have nice company.

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. I don't want one, just recognize it has come to this

I don't live in fantasy, and by the way, WE HAVE ONE already...

Oh and in your platitudes I have YET to see you give a practical alternative, I mean a PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE

[Fescue4u]

242. My practical alternative to the draft

Is to not have a draft.

The blood of innocents will not wash away the blood of more innocents.

[nadinbrzezinski]

249. No that is not practical, just platitiudes

one is comming, wake up and smell the coffee


here are practical solutiins will work on a case by case

CO letters and files.

Moving away if need be

Seat ins

Legal routes

Protesting

Your we shall nto have a draft, we already have one but you have no problem with the draft we have... it is CALLED A POVERTY DRAFT... but that one is fine with you I see

[Fescue4u]

253. If its coming, then its coming

SO now we have a race between liberals and convervatives to implement a draft.

Well isnt that lovely?


If you feel that a real Draft is the only way to end an imaginary Draft, then Bush has already won.

Seriously, Your solutions make Rove look like an Amatuer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

255. Seriously you live in fantasy

they are not callign this war over... and the military KNOWS they need one as much as they fight it....

Who will bring it? CONSERVATIVES... which means taht bill will have more exceptions than you can wiggle a dead cat at... no pun intended...

Why do you think the draft boards are fully staffed?

But you live in platitudes, I live in the reality that it is coming, and how to protect as many kids as I can... by giving them practical advise

[snickersnee]

178. Time to wet my feet.

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR A VERY LENGTHY POST!!!

First off, a few of my premises (so you can accurately direct your flamethrowers):

1) "War" equals mass homicide (ie. either "justifiable" or "murder"). Therefore it's the most grave and horrific act a nation can engage itself in, and ought only be realized in cases of *EXTREME* self-defense (just like homicide).

2) "Democracy" means (among other definitions) that "the people" (you) agree to *AUTHORIZE* the actions of your duly elected(!) government. If America kills, and you are American, then she kills *in your name*. Even if you *personally* oppose it, even if you voted and demonstrated against it, you are still accountable as a citizen because that is the nature of democratic citizenship. The government *is* the people.

Example: many citizens of the former Weimar republic opposed Hitler (who was originally elected), and yet died in Allied bombings. This was tragic but evidently necessary, and thus not "wrong" within the paradigm of war. This same logic is often invoked by *'s opponents to argue that the current Iraqcle *IS* wrong, because Iraq a) was not a democracy whose actions were authorized by her citizens, and b) they didn't actually do anything to deserve being blowed up.

The point of all this (well, one of several) is that democratic citizens are the MOST culpable when their governments commit acts of war. If "lil Kim" Jong Il orders his minions to the barricades, well there's only so much a starving minion can do. If lil Chimp Wrong Ill does same, hey you could always say no: at the polls, in the streets, from the courthouses. If you (the collective "you") fail to do these things, through apathy or ignorance or sloth, it really is your own fault, and (collective) you deserve whatever repercussions await.

All of which is to say that, in my own very humble and modest opinion, ALL wars ought to be conscripted in a democracy. "We" the people also means "you" and "me" the people, and war is the most serious decision the people are ever going to make. Since war means killing other people (who love their kids just as much as you), if you're going to do it at all you should at least all share the burden equally. Your current "volunteer" army is much akin to indentured servitude, where those classes that matter least - the poor, the young and the brown - play American roulette for the chance at upward mobility. Claiming it's justifiable because they "chose" their path is like claiming I made a charitable donation to a mugger because I "chose" not to have him shoot me. There's choice, and then there's choice.

A draft would be horrible. Some of your children would die. The agony would become inconsolable. (Collective) You would feel compelled to take drastic actions: mass protests, civil disobedience, incarceration, emigration, turning out and voting etc. In other words, you would do things you aren't doing right now, at least not nearly enough to make a difference. You would be sufficiently motivated. It's sad that the deaths and maimings of tens of thousands of anonymous foreigners fail to induce you stop the insanity, but comfort bubbles are hard to burst. Still have a comfortable job, nice house, cheap gas, unruffled friends and neighbours? J'accuse.

Harsh? Yes. Hypocritical? Perhaps (for the record, I'm not American, so for me it is still hypothetical). But for everyone who savaged "Distressed American" for promoting the idea, consider: that same visceral reaction you had to him would be 1000 times more intense, and shared nationwide by parents and siblings, if a draft were actually implemented. And if THAT still failed to impel Americans to act, and act *passionately* to end the slaughter, a slaughter which would now include their own flesh and blood, well who then would say it wasn't deserved?

[DistressedAmerican]

180. Welcome To DU!!! Great Start! Well Thought Out And Reasoned!

I always try to welcome newbies. It is rare to see a bonified VIRGIN! Way to get broken in!

[snickersnee]

183. Why thank you

It was actually pretty painless, but I bet I'll be sore later.

[Mandate My Ass]

186. Thank you and welcome

But for everyone who savaged "Distressed American" for promoting the idea, consider: that same visceral reaction you had to him would be 1000 times more intense, and shared nationwide by parents and siblings, if a draft were actually implemented. And if THAT still failed to impel Americans to act, and act *passionately* to end the slaughter, a slaughter which would now include their own flesh and blood, well who then would say it wasn't deserved?

I believe that a draft would erode public support even further. However, America no longer has a free press who will offer both sides of a debate equal voice and objectively report the facts. Without that, the tide of public opinion, mass protests, passion etc. is all really moot. We had that 30 years ago but it's now gone. Once a draft is implemented, our Ace (as it were) has been played and we have nothing else in our political hand.

If this administration, which obviously fears to implement this draft despite the fact that they daily implement hugely unpopular and unfair legislation, gets their draft and with it the inevitable escalation of the Iraq debacle into other countries, what makes you think the only repercussions will be felt by them alone?

Our economy will collapse along with the rest of the planet's. Russia and China are already holding joint military exercises, presumably not to prevent an attack of the killer tomatoes. THe Middle East is already a tinderbox of Anti-American sentiment. Those countries who do not openly oppose us will do so by supporting any group who will guarantee a long, drawn-out guerilla war and I would think their recruiting would be a lot more popular than ours.

THere have been no assurances, or even quantifiable evidence offerred here that a draft will end hostilities. I see just the opposite happening, with the body count and misery index embracing the rest of the globe.

Human lives are too precious a resource to gamble for an administration who has demonstrated by everything they've done since attaining office that the only thing they care for is corporate profit. I say no to gambling with the lives of our sons and daughters and with the fate of the rest of the world.

On edit: as for savaging DA, well he got personal before any of us did. Peace.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

188. I'm worried about you. Such a temper. Surely your blood pressure

must be going through the roof right now.

I said I would die rather than send one unwilling person to kill and/or die in an obviously immoral, illegal, unethical, oil grab. I would do it for my son in particular. I have stated over and over again that the Bush administration would be the last ones to pay for their offenses should a draft be reinstated. Any escalation of this conflict would most likely have disastrous, inhumane global repercussions.

What did I hear in response? Crickets.

Ex-lax is something I would highly recommend since common sense and reason are not affecting any kind of improvement of your constipated and obviously dim-wited attempts to convince people to send their children to their death while claiming that makes you a brave warrior for the cause.

[DistressedAmerican]

189. Another Baseless Allegation Unsupported!

You accuse me of getting personal first. Where?

[Mandate My Ass]

191. It was right here, honey....

"That simplistic arguement(sic) fails to account in anyway for public opinion.

If you think the public will react the SAME way to a war fueled by their children that they do to the one we are currently waging with the poor and disemfranchized(sic), it is you who are delusional."

Up until the "simplistic arguement(sic)" line, things were going honky dorey. Smooch.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snickersnee]

190. Thanks for the Welcome

I appreciate your arguments, but do not agree. Perhaps I can be convinced? Let's try:

YOU: "I believe that a draft would erode public support even further. However, America no longer has a free press who will offer both sides of a debate equal voice and objectively report the facts. Without that, the tide of public opinion, mass protests, passion etc. is all really moot. We had that 30 years ago but it's now gone. Once a draft is implemented, our Ace (as it were) has been played and we have nothing else in our political hand."

ME: I also agree a draft would erode public support for the war. I further agree the American press is neither free nor impartial, and thus not to be trusted. However, no amount of Fauxyness will obscure a dead son or daughter - that only works on other people's children. That "tide" that you pine for also coincided with the last time you had a draft, unless I'm mistaken. I think you misvalue your "political hand" -the trump card isn't the fact that a draft might happen later, you are already in that situation and it's not much of a hand. An imminent or actual draft - one that comfortable sheepizens cannot dismiss - that is your trump.

YOU: "If this administration, which obviously fears to implement this draft despite the fact that they daily implement hugely unpopular and unfair legislation, gets their draft and with it the inevitable escalation of the Iraq debacle into other countries, what makes you think the only repercussions will be felt by them alone?"

ME: You stipulate that, despite all their radical and unpopular undertakings, this administration still "obviously fears to implement the draft". Again, we agree. Why do you think that is? I also agree that the repercussions will be felt by ALL Americans, not just the * admin. Of course, that is the point. Pain that is painless is no pain at all. I agree it's unfortunate Americans aren't motivated by altruistic principle and compassion alone, yet here we are.

YOU: "Our economy will collapse along with the rest of the planet's. Russia and China are already holding joint military exercises, presumably not to prevent an attack of the killer tomatoes. THe Middle East is already a tinderbox of Anti-American sentiment. Those countries who do not openly oppose us will do so by supporting any group who will guarantee a long, drawn-out guerilla war and I would think their recruiting would be a lot more popular than ours."

ME: All of these "consequences" are ALREADY occuring, as you concede. Therefore they will not be CAUSED by a draft. They are CAUSED by American military, political and economic policies vis a vis the world. If a draft causes Americans to demand a change in their government, this in turn will change those policies which already fire the world's animosity. No?

YOU: "THere have been no assurances, or even quantifiable evidence offerred here that a draft will end hostilities. I see just the opposite happening, with the body count and misery index embracing the rest of the globe.
Human lives are too precious a resource to gamble for an administration who has demonstrated by everything they've done since attaining office that the only thing they care for is corporate profit. I say no to gambling with the lives of our sons and daughters and with the fate of the rest of the world."

ME: There are never any assurances. My "evidence" is necessarily speculative and anecdotal, as I can't prove an event which hasn't yet occured. I CAN offer evidence that the status quo is NOT working, which prima facie is argument for change. As for gambling precious human lives, we're already nipple-deep in blood and excrement, and the fate of the world is rather precarious. You're (collective) already "gambling with human lives". I say, horrible as it must sound, up the ante, put AMERICAN lives (and not just the disposables) into the pot. Then decide whether to bet or fold.

It's not a good solution. There are no good solutions. But it's the hand America dealt itself and the world.

[Mandate My Ass]

193. OK

There are never any assurances. My "evidence" is necessarily speculative and anecdotal, as I can't prove an event which hasn't yet occured. I CAN offer evidence that the status quo is NOT working, which prima facie is argument for change."

If there are indeed no assurances, then your argument that we have no other option is negated. In order to justify the irrevocable (death of an unwilling innocent) you damned well better have an irrevocable argument, or at the very very least, something less than speculative. Holy shit.

This is the basis for our justice system, you know, the one we say proves we are more civilized than those brown people we're killing. We don't say "well murders still happen despite the fact that we have the death penalty so we have to execute everyone who might commit one in order to stay safe." That is the epitome of speculation and the hallmark of a totalitarian regime.

THe other assertion you made, that we have to sacrifice innocent human lives to prove Bush's foreign policy is wrong is equally speculative and as absurd and flies in the face of everything we hold sacred as Americans.

[snickersnee]

199. OK?

Apparently I was unclear. There are NEVER any assurances. A plan is always susceptible to failure. So in your view, if I unleash a rabid hyena into a room of toddlers (my fault in creating such a situation), and said hyena then attempts to maul toddlers, I shouldn't attempt to intervene, because after all there are no *assurances* that I can dissuade a rabid hyena, and it may very well eat me? Holy Shit!

Now, I never said this was "the only option". It is an option. If there are no better options, then at least it should be on the table. I haven't yet heard better options, other than "NO". Do you at least agree that the current status quo is intolerable?

Also for the record, I certainly disagree that you are "more civilized that those brown people (you're) killing."

Finally, I am wholly unconcerned with "prov(ing) Bush's foreign policy is wrong." I am already convinced, and could care less who else agrees. If I encountered a plan to end the war while making * into a national hero with his own holiday, I would swallow my bile and support it. I am concerned with ending the immoral and unjustifiable slaughter which is ALREADY occuring. I suspect a draft is the only way to motivate Americans to STOP and question what is done in their name. I value American lives no more or less than any other nationality. Surely this is not where we disagree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. we have another name for it

and it is a terrible name, it is called triage... few will die, for many to live...

Trust me... I've played this role as a medic... not one that I relish... and this time they are not even hurt yet...

But as a wife of a vet (and a vet of soembody else's military and the war on drugs) I know there are limits and this country will not reach for them UNTIL it is truly personal

alas I wish it were different... but it is not

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. then yuo no longer live in a democracy and hold no

personal responsibity

They have won, I get it now...

Damn missed that memo!

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. Welcome to this discusion forum and well thought out

[LoneDriver]

179. OP is right on

Nothing like a Draft to put a fear of the mailman in you. These fools could not be so cavalier with a citizen army as opposed to an army of mercenaries. While I feel for any who might be affected, it is the history of the modern world. You Citizen, you belong to the state, not the other way around, as far as they are concerned. I work with college age kids and the war is so far off their radar it might as well not be happening. It sure got me involved in anti-war activities during the sixties to have both self preservation AND right as motivation. It would surely do the same again.

Personally I have always liked the Swiss model. but that would scare * sh*tless to have a mobilized, armed population.

[Mandate My Ass]

181. Let's fight the Bushes over there so we don't have to fight them over here

I have yet to see the combination of lunacy and false bravado on DU that I've seen here today.

Best.Thread.Ever.

It's really amazing to find out we have such Einsteins and keyboard commandos on our side too.

[Goldmund]

196. You didn't answer my question

Let me ask you a simple question: had there been a draft, do you think that "WMD"s and "Mushroom clouds" and waving some drawings in front of the UN would have convinced Americans to go to war? Do you think that Bush would have dared to start a war?

Answer that honestly.

[DistressedAmerican]

198. He Won't. Never Responds. Just Attacks. Pointless To Even Talk To This

poster. Refuses to bring anything to the table but hostility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. Some of us have been there done taht

you have not...

So I am not a keyboard commando... nor a commando for that matter, but been there done that, and I apreciate the SHARED sacrifice that is MISSING from this fucking war.

[XemaSab]

184. I agree

I think the draft could really do some positive things as far as limiting US hegemony overseas.

[Dark]

192. You are as bad as the republicans.

Willing to sacrifice innocent lives just for political gain.

How disgusting.

[Goldmund]

195. No, you are

willing to sacrifice innocent lives IN OTHER COUNTRIES just so your ass is never on the line.

Even though it's plainly apparent that with a draft in place, those "other" lives would not have anywhere close to the chance of being sacrificed that they do now.

[radar]

203. My simple uneducated view...

Is that this might be the only thing able to circumvent the control of media and the political machine of gungho rah-rah rangers.

So far this month, 41 Americans killed in Iraq; and only 15 days into it. How many in this country have an awareness of that? How many are aware we surpassed 1000 awhile back?
http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

Back when Clinton was president - media coverage of Somalia was prevalent; 18 killed during the "BlackHawk Down" incident, with pictures of dead soldiers onscreen; and cries of bring them home rang out.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/etc/cron.html
...Today, it's celebrity mishap/crime and missing white women onscreen 24/7.

How can you penetrate that? This is really just one way to give a proverbial cold shower of reality to the unaware.

................................................

My football analogy...

New head coach comes in promising a high-scoring, pass-happy offense to win games. Drafts college players & signs high-priced free agents (Randy Moss, Terrel Owens level) to execute the announced attack plan. Mini-camps, training camp, and preseason all show a team ready to kick butt with a quarterback throwing early & often, long & deep.
Regular season begins and the head coach decides to run the football; use the expensive wide receivers as decoys & blockers.
Things don't go too well - coach says "it's hard work," "these things take time," and "if the last head coach had drafted some players that blocked better, this wouldn't happen..."

Most football fans would be looking to "kill" this new head coach from the end of game 1; a political leader gets a "free pass" to do it his way - 4 more years.

[Merope215]

197. Well, I'm 19, and I think that idea sucks.

Don't get me wrong. You might be right, in that a draft would wake up the country. But it probably wouldn't do that until plenty of my friends, and maybe me, were dead. No thanks.

Incidentally, and you might be interested to know this, I was in the Longworth House Office Building today on Capitol Hill, and in one of the hallways where the representatives have their offices, there was a big display of all of the Americans who have died in Iraq so far (actually, I think it may have only gone through 2004; anyway, it was a lot). But instead of any kind of message about how tragic it was, or just nothing at all, there were these signs at the top that said crap like "The patriot is called to the highest religious duty - that of sacrifice" and that kind of drivel. It made me really mad - right inside the House office building! So I can see where you're coming from. But I don't think a draft is a very good idea at all, and while I understand your point, I'm not willing to get behind it with my life or any of my friends'.

[DistressedAmerican]

200. I Can Respect That. Not Sure Why I Am Surprised By Things Like

the display you saw. I should just assume that is how these folks think. Sad though.

[B Calm]

202. When I was your age I didn't have a choice. The rich kids didn't

have to worry, but I did. So I signed up in the Navy thinking I would be safer than going to Vietnam. I was right! I think there should me mandatory two year military service for every citizen upon reaching the age of 20! No deferments and no exceptions!

[Hippo_Tron]

247. If I had absolutely no choice, I'd try to join the air force

Or at the very least, I'd much rather be on the ground in a place like Sudan than Iraq. If I had to put my ass on the line, I'd at least like to see that I'm actually saving peoples' lives, rather than getting more people killed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. I'll give yuo the same advise I gave today to two kids

your generation, I know, one of them I helped raise and I would hate to see him shipped off.

Contact the Quakers, or the Unitarian Church (they have the best record on Conscientious Objectors) and START your file now. We are talking theory here, but it is coming.

[robertpaulsen]

201. Hey, why isn't Syria part of New Ameristan?

You think they're on the "regime change" PNAC agenda for after 2010?

[DistressedAmerican]

204. I Was Slipping When I Made It. No Forethought.

Made it before the ex-PM of Lebanon was killed. Looked less appealing than Iran at the time. Clearly it could use an update.

Maybe this will work a bit better for you:

[robertpaulsen]

207. Love it!

Reminds me of a George Carlin joke (I'm paraphrasing) "Sure, Nixon has a plan to get us out of Vietnam. Unfortunately, we have to go through Cambodia".

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. Project for a new American Century

rebuilding America's Defenses.. yes Siria IS in the task list

[Deja Q]

215. I agree. The mindset given to us by those in power for 25+ years.

All about us and how we can become wealthy and how we can be this and we can be that.

Well, virtually none of us is any of those things they claim we CAN be.

it's no longer about what we can do for our country.

[anarchy1999]

227. And so you finally got there. It is a long and difficult road, especially

if you have those in jeopardy. I hate it. My daughter is a "Prime Candidate". I anticipate many, many battles in the coming few years. Let every member of Congress, in the Senate and the House with children that are draftable go to this illegal war! Then and only then will the tide turn!

Thank you and I am so very sorry.

[DistressedAmerican]

235. Took me until the last day or two. I can hardly believe it has come to

this. The day I am advocating FOR A DRAFT is the day I know we are "through the looking glass".

I do say this. Probably should have said it sooner.

If they do it, Resisting the draft will also be key. Get ready to burn those draft cards people!!!

See Post 219 for some good advice!!!

[Hippo_Tron]

244. Umm I oppose this war and I'm 18, so I say fuck no

Also I am against conscription even if it has the good intentions you speak of. I also question its constitutionality.

And besides, it worked so well for Vietnam... Even if the draft is in effect, Congressmen and Senators' kids don't go to war, so they won't give a shit.

[DistressedAmerican]

248. It Is Not About Them Sending Their Kids. They Will Give A Shit

when their phonebanks and email fills up with angry Americans who, like you niether want to die in this mess nore lose another life.

The rich kids, the children of the powerful? Yep, may well beat it.

How do you think that will be sitting with the average, middle class American voter?

It sure would make it a bit hotter in the old capital, no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. Practical advise

contact the quakers and the Unitarian Church and START working on your CO file.. Consientous Objector... best case scenario will get you out of the armed forces, worst case... well being a medic is not that bad.

Now there is more, it is coming, whether we like it or not, so start raisign the issue with your classmates.

[Hippo_Tron]

258. Actually, if it ever came up, I'd kind of like to fly a plane

I couldn't be a medic because I can't stomach blood. My hope is that by going to flight school, I'd fly in the air force and get sent on a mission that would actually do some good, Sudan for exmaple. That's only assuming we don't bomb Iran and Syria, however.

[nadinbrzezinski]

259. Ok to FLY the airplane in the AF you need to be an officer

if a draft is implemented your best bet (you may be able to delay the pain of actually going into a combat zone) is to go for either an AF Academy Appointment or an ROTC sign up.

If you do this, read the contract carefully, take it home, DO NOT pay attention to the recruiter... and go through it with care... if you have a friend who is a lawyer even better.

Two rules about the military

If it is not in writing we did not promise such

You need to keep a copy in case they loose it.. errr misplace it while you are in basic.

You also need to become a pilot (if enlisted crewman) of Transport Command, which are the people who fly the C-130s.

Now the other thing about the military is... you will have no choice of where you fly that plane, aka missions, it is not a democracy. If there happens to be a disaster... you may be called, but for the most part you will be flying missions to support the military mission.

Oh and politics does not belong in quarters, and if you ever find an order that is ilegal and you decide to disobey it.... you'd better be sure, very sure where it is, and you will face the consequences.

[radar]

254. STEVE GILLIARD wrote a hypothetical...

About getting young republicans to join.

"Speaking of cults, I've been thinking about our little Republican friends who refuse to enlist. I think more direct methods of persuasion might be in order...."
Trooping the colors Thursday, June 16, 2005
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/06/trooping-colors.html


Made me laugh.

[Ron Green]

261. I guaran-damn-tee you that if all 18 to 20-year olds had been in uniform

for the past 3 years, we wouldn't be in Iraq today.

[Moderator]

263. Locking

This thread has become a flame-fest, and tempers are a little too hot.

DU Moderator