Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.nbc6.net/dianagonzalez/4613101/detail.html

Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results
Examiner Backs Up Contention Schiavo Was In Persistent Vegetative State

TAMPA, Fla. -- The attorney for Terri Schiavo's parents says they continue to believe their daughter was not in a persistent vegetative state, despite the results of an autopsy.

David Gibbs said Bob and Mary Schindler plan to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action. The Schindlers fought their son-in-law in court over their daughter's fate for nearly seven years.

schiavo's family has accused her husband of abusing her, which he denies. They also said she was minimally conscious, but the autopsy released Wednesday backed up the contention of Schiavo's husband that she was in a persistent vegetative state.

It found that she had massive and irreversible brain damage, and that she was blind. The autopsy also found that her brain was about half of normal size when she died.

<</SNIP>>

[swag]

1. "Never underestimate the power of denial."

[Bucky]

52. Nor of the power of right wing rabble rowsers to exploit denial

The real tragedy of the Shaivo case wasn't Terri, who probably wasn't suffering, or her husband, who had a righteous cause to fight for. The real tragedy is the way Jeb Bush and his associated wingers turned Terri's parents into this year's Paula Jones, exploiting them for power and political positioning, then tossing them aside when they'd outlived their usefulness.

[dogday]

2. One Word-Denial

These parents need to let it go. Shame on them for trying to drag this out for either publicity, politics or money....

[Cha]

35. It makes them look like the

haters they were when Terry was on "life" support and they were accusing Michael of horrid acts.

It shows how small, mean, and irredeemable they are.

[FreedomAngel82]

129. It also shows

how they don't really care at all about her. No parent would keep going on like this if they truly cared about the daughter. Remember the report in the Florida paper that said the mother would deny her daughters wishes even if she did have a living will? It's also obvious she never accepted that her daughter was MARRIED. She probably didn't like the husband. Maybe he wasn't rich enough. :mad:

[Dulcinea]

59. Won't these people ever give up?

They're the ones that need medical experts.

[NJmaverick]

3. More like they are sticking with their lies

Don't want to admit the video tape was doctored and all their claims were lies of the most vile kind!

[Fridays Child]

7. As badly as they have behaved...

...it's hard for me to attribute such cynical motives to them. I guess it's because I can see myself going almost that crazy, if it were my own child.

[atreides1]

53. Not cynical

Desparate, the Schindlers were and are even now desparate. But add to that the celebrity status that they received duirng the circus that they were responsible for creating.

I personally think that it stopped being about what was the right thing to do for their daughter, and turned into how to destroy their
son-in-law.

They took their love for their daughter and turned it into hatred for the man she married, and now reality is not acceptable in their own deluded world.

I pity them, but I hope that they suffer for the rest of their lives for what they did.

[Justice]

56. yes, maybe - until now. Now they are behaving irrationally

I could understand them saying, we just didn't want the plug to be pulled, no matter what. But they are saying no, the doctors were wrong, she was going to recover. That is not logical.

[DearAbby]

8. Actually I am not surprised....Terri was their cash cow...Keep the story

alive is their motto. Ghouls

[Montanan]

26. Precisely! They are disgusting. n/t

[kskiska]

36. Exactly! They have a vested interest in keeping it alive.

They're being supported by the Right to Life movement. They're speaking at venues all over the country supporting the cause. There's no way they could let this go. They'd all have to go out and get jobs.

[anitar1]

39. My first thought was about the money--

You beat me to it. They are still angry because of their inability to get some of the proceeds from the trust fund. Creeps.

[geek tragedy]

4. Legal action? Who are they going to sue, the publishers of Gray's Anatomy

God, someone just get these deranged wingnuts away from the cameras.

[eleny]

5. How sad

[Beaverhausen]

10. I agree.

It would be nice if they could accept that the right thing was done for their daughter.

[deadparrot]

38. Very sad.

I don't know about anyone's personal motives in this situation,or their current state of mine (or lack thereof). This is a sad case, all around.

[Ravy]

6. Looks like Terri didn't have the only atrophied brain

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Maybe that's it.

Maybe half-size brains are the norm in that family.

[Lochloosa]

9. I don't believe for a minute that it is denial

There are a lot of people in the background pulling these strings. And it has nothing to do with Terri. "Right to Life" my ass.
Ask Shurb about 1700+ Lives.

[aden_nak]

11. "Crazy People Refuse To Believe Facts"

[rox63]

12. Makes we wonder

Can brain damage run in the family? :crazy:

[tk2kewl]

13. the entire problem with the RW...

if it doesn't fit their twisted world view it must not be true. The truth could smack them in the face and they still would not believe.

The medical examiner could've opened her head like a coconut in front of them and showed them it was empty and they still wouldn't believe it. Hillary Clinton must've sucked her brain out through her nostrils.

[strizi64]

14. BREAKING: Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Anything!

[rocktivity]

15. It's still the truth, though

And has been for at least ten years.

Someone called into Randi Rhodes and said that despite the autopsy results, she stills thinks a disabled woman was murdered. Randi just told her to get a life!

:headbang:
rockantion

[HockeyMom]

16. Randall Terry

When the Schindler's hired Randall Terry to be their spokeman, they lost all credibility. Teri became a cause, not a person.

[grytpype]

17. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with those people?

I guess the theory that the brain is necessary for consciousness is just a liberal God-hating notion that must be ruthlessly surpressed, like evolution.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

28. jesus christ is exactly the problem. Faith in unknowables over reality

Any evidence that contrary to what their bible-beating leaders tell them to believe will be viewed as "devil work" or an untruth.

You can't reason with those who fail to show the capacity for reason.

JB

[shadowknows69]

30. I am a very spiritual person and have plenty of faith

in unknowables. I don't let it make me completely blind and stupid. Why wouldn't these people want the comfort and peace that this autopsy should provide them? You couldn't save her and you still can't. Go on with your lives.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

33. You = religious person w/ reason. They = religious nuts w/ no reason.

Well stated. I didn't mean to falsely tar all xtians.

JB

[shadowknows69]

37. not a Christian

I've been blind with religion before. Was sure I had to burn my Rush albums to be saved once long ago (Farewll to Kings indeed). I probably believe in more metaphysical things now than I did then even but as I said, you still have to open your eyes and look at the world even if you feel your spirit is beyond it.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

46. Any religion that advocates burning Rush albums is crazy...

Though, I have to say that Geddy Lee often resembled the devil struck with an ugly stick. :)

Fly by Night and Permanent Waves are my favorite albums in the late 70s - early 80s.

Cheers!

JB

[shadowknows69]

107. It was a Pentacostal church that made me burn Rush

I'm a pagan now. pagans love all music although the new age penchant for listening to Yanni is something that bothers me ;-)

[FreedomAngel82]

130. What a change

[shadowknows69]

135. Oh I was hardcore assemblies of god too

preaching to kids in my high school, passing out tracts, the whole nine yards.

[grytpype]

57. Reminds me of...

Reminds me of Jonathan Swift's comment on Aristotle's dictum that "man is a reasoning animal," Swift says man is "animale rationis capax" (an "animal capable of reason")

[shadowknows69]

108. I've seen my dog make more rational decisions

than our current government. Swift is correct.

[Patchuli]

144. Sorry, but put blame where blame is due

The problem is not Jesus Christ. The problems are people that are using Our Lord for their agenda. You can believe as you like and so will I, but I will stand to correct a misconception like this one everytime. The extremists are not even paying attention to the Scriptures.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Denial, manipulation, selfishness...

... all hallmarks of dysfunctional families--especially ones that breed eating disorders--like the bulimia that is thought to have caused Terri's initial collapse.

This family is not operating from a healthy position.

They acted like selfish, controlling jerks during the fiasco. They allowed their daughter to be exploited and released photos/video of her that I'm sure she would not have wanted made public. Now, despite medical and scientific evidence that suggests they were wrong--they chose to discount it.

Whatever.

The Shiavo family's behavior solidifies it for me--that Terri suffered from an eating disorder--as a result of living with these controlling, myopic people who do denial so well.

Thank God Terri had a loving husband--who did right by her--despite the tremendous pressure from these lying, dysfunctional parents.

Ok Schiavo parents--you had your 15 minutes. Now go sit over in the corner with Joey Buttafuco and Tanya Harding.

[PsN2Wind]

19. They'll seek a second opinion

from Bill Frist.

[devinsgram]

20. They must be running out of money, time to get

a new cause. After all who believes those learned doctors, I'm sure they can find someone like Frist to argue their point.

[ElectroPrincess]

23. And how dare those "activist" (mostly Republican?) judges ...

side with Medical Science!?! Don't you know that intellectuals are NOT wanted here? This is an issue for God and since * was chosen by God, then what he says RULES in Fundy-Land! :crazy:

It's about time to get the paddy wagon and the men in white coats to take them all away. When the corrupt players begin to be exposed, they will act out in the most angry and bizarre ways. Stay tuned for if we are able to shine the light on objective reason and science to the sheeple's approval ... well this is gonna get real interesting, real fast. :popcorn:

[slackmaster]

21. And now it's too late for a second opinion

:nopity:

[Ezlivin]

22. Did IQs sharply drop while I was away?

I swear, I feel more like Ripley in Aliens every goddamned day.

Is this the same planet I was born on?

WTF?

[stanwyck]

45. Bush has emboldened dumb people

they have a champion. The anti-intellectualism is complete. Smart people, including all scientists, are now vilified and condemned, given the Galileo treatment.
Dumb people, however, or just the sinfully uninformed, have been elevated to sage advisors and given daily exposure on the networks.
No facts. No specifics. Just blind pigheaded stubborness glorified by the Bush administration.
South Korea is kicking our butts on stem cell research. South Korea. And South America (yes, that's right) is kicking our butts on alternative fuel sources.
We're not the space-age America anymore, leading the way in technology.
We're no longer the "brightest guys in the room." We're now the muscle-bound jock, receiving passing grades, just so we can go out on the football field and knock people down.

[BronxBoy]

51. Good Post

Really puts things into perspective.

[PopSixSquish]

60. You are 110% Correct

Welcome to the age of the dumb-ass.

I have several friends and family members who are teachers. The stories they tell are just frightening. And then there are the parents who pitch a fit when Little Billy makes bad grades. The teachers are always at fault. Not the fact that the parents just enable the bad behavior and lack of intellectual curiosity.

Very sad

[Old and In the Way]

67. Fitting that our national demise is presided over by George Bush

A neer-do-well who got by on his connections, failed in business, failed his call to duty, should lead this country to its demise. The man of no accountability and responsibility is the perfect man selected to pull the plug on this country.

And the idiots who support him deserve to reap what they've sown. Of course, they, too, will blame anyone or anything, other than themselves, in assigning responsibility for the demise of this country.

[expatriate]

106. This is so very true.

Of late, countries that used to send their citizens to the US for graduate school, have begun to choose other countries and other schools. I've watched the US school system dumbing down for thirty-odd years now, and it's terrifying. Worse is the overwhelming impression I get that intellectual curiosity is sneered at by so many in America. Even when I was in high school in the 1970's, those of us who really wanted to learn something and were curious were ridiculed by the "cool" ignoramuses who made up the football teams and cheerleading squads.

Now it seems as if that high school microcosm has set the standard for American society - and it's presided over by the ultimate Know-Nothing, George Bush.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. Heh, that started AT LEAST in the 1960s, if not earlier

:-(

Spoken as one who was often the recipient of sneering comments, "But you're so smart."

[FreedomAngel82]

132. Yep

I've noticed it back when I was a junior or so that the schools were going downhill (at least mine). I don't know about now since I'm in college and the college I attend is great. I love it. But the dumbing down works for them because all they have to do then is quote a few Bible verses here and there and put out false myths (like being a liberal is evil etc) and repeat them until it's pounded into people's heads. It's really quite sad. *sigh* The only time people will, hopefully, change is if something happens to effect them directly and make them think a bit.

[NoSheep]

141. I'm with you there.

:shrug:

[thinkingwoman]

24. this is shocking

Her parents don't believe reality. Shocking. But at least they're consistent.

Consistently delusional.

[NoSheep]

142. Ding!

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

25. Belief in Mythical god, but fail to believe in Factual evidence & science.

Michael Schiavo needs to SUE THE FUCK out of these dumbass, bible-beating, slanderous assholes.

JB

[TroglodyteScholar]

27. I wonder where the Schindlers got THEIR medical degrees...

Seriously, even a lay person who has seen those brain scans can tell that a HUGE amount of her brain tissue had died and been replaced with spinal fluid.



My understanding is that the dark places are where there is NO brain matter.

These people need to drop it. They have lost sight of their own family issues and become attention whores. Shame on them.

[Nay]

50. Yeah, now's the time for that asshole Frist to come out of the

woodwork and tell everybody that the docs who originally said Teri was really brain dead were right. He needs to do the right thing for those godly republican parents, and go tell them face-to-face that their daughter was never going to get better, and all those movements she made were not evidence of consciousness.

I would take bets on when Frist would step up and say this stuff, but nobody would take me up on it.

[TroglodyteScholar]

88. I won't be holding my breath... n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

134. Yep

Someone should ask them to show their medicial licenses.

[Clyde_dubyaD40]

29. How convenient for the Repugs that this came out the day after

Michael Jackson. Now we get the pleasure of hearing the Hitler Youth poster boy Hannity and his mentor the OxyContin kid grab ahold of this like a pitbull with an infected testicle grabs on to a steak bone.

[Guckert]

32. They still dont believe that Santa is their Mommy and Daddy .

They never figured out why Terri never got any presents.

[TrogL]

34. Here's a thread comparing normal to Terri's brain

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/18/162547/578

[distantearlywarning]

40. These people need to move on.

This is not healthy for anyone, including them.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

41. But then again, these people don't beleive anything

that has to do with reality.

[Felix Mala]

42. The right somehow manages to dodge every Fact Bomb

that gets lobbed at the well-defended fortress that is their agenda. Why would autopsy results change their minds? I sure hope they videotaped the autopsy so Sen. Dr. Frist can give us his opinion from the floor of the Senate. Did anyone check to see if whether the attending physicians hate Bush? Of course, if they hate Bush, that's going to skew their medical opinions.

[katamaran]

43. Ya think?

Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results

Well, no sh!t. Like they were gonna roll over and accept it.

[dave29]

44. Then, there is only one course of action. Sue the denial right out of them

I rarely advocate lawsuits, but these people need to be taught a lesson.

[kohodog]

47. Yeah, and they don't believe in evolution, stem cells or climate change

Just like the rest of 'em.

But where is the outrage over the media liars who promoted the lies. Rather resigns for using undocumented memos, but Frist can make a video diognosis.

We're in big trouble here.

[LoneDriver]

48. Why should they deal with reality now?

Duh, who's brain dead now. Remember never confuse the issue with facts.

[VegasWolf]

49. Gee, I guess these people's christian god made a mistake. nt

[applegrove]

54. Those parents are just sick with grief. Why don't the Religious Right

leave them alone to go through the proper stages of grief rather than stirring the pot. The religious right are terribly cruel! The church is supposed to be an expert on grief. Seems that they cannot do their jobs properly while they are being so political.

Shame on them.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

118. You're kidding right

Sick with grief??? I can't say that I have every witnessed anyone sick with grief get in front of every camera they could to talk complete nonsense. These people are evil. Plain and simple.

[SoCalDem]

55. Did we really expect anything different?

Every time I saw them on tv, I was always reminded of the Parrot sketch from Monty Python....

[Groggy]

58. Those parents need to get a grip...

They are delusional. Seriously....I think they had tried to convince themselves for so long that there was hope that they cannot/will not see the truth. Selfish....is what they were, only seeing THEIR needs...not their daughters. Its a shame and very sad.

[leesa]

61. These people are simply irrational

[kiraboo]

62. Yes! It's those damned "activist pathologists" who cause

all the confusion and misunderstanding! LOL.

[RalphReedsWreckedEm]

63. They plan a "Spiritual Autopsy" by Bill Frist

Praise the Lord! The outcome is already determined! Our Lord has found that Michael Schiavo abused his holy wife and hired strippers to dance in her hospital room as he derisively denied her communion. Dr. Frist has found that Terri was perfectly normal in every way and looked awesome in a bikini and was totally lucid and was an accomplished flamenco guitarist and would have shortly announced that her extensive research had resulted in a cure for lung cancer if only mean old Satanic Michael hadn't denied her the steak dinners she was so eloquently begging for.

Damn that Michael Schiavo! He has denied us that which God ordained!

Not. :)

[truthisfreedom]

64. it's probably best not to continue interviewing people who are insane with

grief.

[RalphReedsWreckedEm]

65. Who are they going to sue - Jesus?

I can hear the bailiff now....

In Re:

Schindler Family et. al

VS.

The Lord of Hosts, AKA The Lamb of God, AKA Jesus of Nazareth, Savior of all mankind

Tort Action Number 789765, seeking monetary damages......

[DemBones DemBones]

66. Their CHILD was deliberately deprived of food and water until she died.

And you think they should "move on"?

Even those of you without children of your own should have observed that most parents are quite protective of their kids, no matter how old the kids are.

Try for a few minutes to imagine Terri was YOUR child.

If you can't do that, perhaps you can imagine she was your sister, a sister loved by you.

She was alive, she was not brain dead, she was not terminally ill, and she certainly appeared to have some semblance of consciousness, but the courts backed up her husband's desire to have her die.

The "evidence" that she would have wanted to be put to death was all hearsay testimony from her husband, his brother, and his brother's wife. Would you want to be killed on the basis of the words of a spouse who wanted to "get on with his life" (i.e., marry the woman he'd lived with for years) and two members of his family?

Her parents and siblings, who were ready to care for her despite her damaged condition, for as long as she lived, had to stand by helplessly as she was starved to death, even deprived of hydration. What a ghastly experience for anyone.

Michael Schiavo lined up another wife years ago. The Schindlers won't have another daughter. Terri's siblings won't have another sister.

[Sacajawea]

68. But she WAS brain dead.

The autopsy proved that.

[DemBones DemBones]

79. She didn't have a flat EEG or she'd have been declared brain dead

while she was alive.

[mondo joe]

84. You have to have a brain to be brain dead. Most of Terri's cerebral cortex

had already wasted away.

[DemBones DemBones]

104. So why didn't her doctors (hired by her husband, remember) say

she was brain dead? Why were there no reports of a flat EEG?

All I saw were doctors offering an opinion of PVS (and other doctors disagreeing.) Since PVS can only be definitively diagnosed at autopsy, nobody knew for sure whether she had it or not. You can't really blame the parents for not wanting her killed just to diagnose her condition.

[mondo joe]

110. Her physicians concurred: PVS. Some doctors who never examined her

and weren't qualified disagreed.

I certainly can blame the parents for not accepting the facts.

[DemBones DemBones]

116. Read post 96, from someone who has worked in a hospital and

had a lot of experience with bereaved parents in denial.

As for the doctors, they never said she was brain dead, did they? A flat EEG is the usual criterion for disconnecting someone from a ventilator; shouldn't the same be required for starving someone to death?

[mondo joe]

117. I know some bereaved parents are in denial but they don't normally

turn the affair into a circus. These shots get zero sympathy from me.

They ADMITTED they would deny her wishes if they KNEW she wanted life support removed.

The criterion for removal of life support should be the wishes of the individual and the concensus of medical opinion about the condition.

Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered examination. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying, " has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region.

[thinkingwoman]

71. if, God and Goddess forbid,

my daughter was brain dead for 15 years and I didn't allow her to fulfill her wish to not be kept alive artificially, she would haunt me forever.

She has promised as much.

Don't pretend that people who disagree with you don't have children of their own or don't love other people. I love my daughter dearly. I would die for her. But I would never keep her corpse animated. That's what is truly ghastly.

[DemBones DemBones]

87. But you're not seeing it as they see it -- they did not see her as an

animated corpse and if you saw the video of her with her mother, she appeared to have some sort of consciousness and to see and hear, though the autopsy alleges she was blind and deaf.

I wouldn't put my child, or anyone I love, on a feeding tube or on life support, like a ventilator, unless there was a very good chance of their recovery. Because once you do, you've created a situation where you're going to have to let the person either live out their life in an unconscious or semiconscious state or you're going to have to kill them. Most people don't want to kill someone they love, under any circumstances.

Also, remember that the "evidence" that Terri didn't want to be kept alive "artificially" was hearsay testimony from husband Michael, his brother, and that brother's wife. If she were that convinced about her wishes, why hadn't she shared them with anyone else? And why did it take him and his family several years to "remember" what her wishes were? He "remembered" after the court settlements were over and he saw he wasn't going to get a gazillion bucks from the lawsuits.

Anyway, if she'd left written directives or named someone to act for her, it would be a different matter. I'm just not convinced it would have been her wish to die that way.

[mondo joe]

113. Her parents knew they edited the video to give the apppearance of

consciousness.

And Michael didn't "remember" after years. He tried years of therapy and only after her physicians concluded it was hopeless did he try to carry out her wishes.

You are really wrong about a lot of the record in this case.

[TankLV]

124. The autopsy "alleges" nothing! It PROVES she was blind and deaf!

The part of a brain that allows one to see and hear WAS MISSING!

The doctors stated it exactly that way. There was NO doubt about it.

She was blind and deaf.

[thinkingwoman]

146. I don't have written directives

but my husband and children know what I want.

The fact that her parents refuse to accept reality doesn't warrant giving their delusions preference. It just doesn't. Sorry.

[Bob3]

72. Her brain was half the size of normal

Her vision centers had disintegrated into mush -

She was never - EVER - EVER going to recover.

Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. - the courts found that HER wish not Michael's not her parents HERS was to be allowed to die rather than be kept alive in this state.

I loved my grandmother - I loved her with all my heart and soul - Senile Dementia, Alzheimer's what have (it was the 70's we didn't know what we know now) took her mind away - the shell that was her body lived another ten years after she was gone. When her heart finally gave out my first thought was "she's free".

I miss her but I miss her - not the breathing corpse she was at the end with the eyes of a lizard but the woman who loved me and sang songs about her Ireland in sweet low brogue that I can still hear.

[expatriate]

105. Bob3, I have a similar grandmother!

Mine began to come apart mentally twenty years ago and progressed through dementia until she fell down her basement stairs, because she had family members who were in denial and insisted on "keeping her in her own home" even when she didn't know it was her own home. The fall caused massive brain damage on top of the damage done by the process of dementia.

Her accident was eight years ago. The same family members insisted that a feeding tube be put in her stomach after her accident - and now, she is a mindless body lying in a nursing home, living year after year. She is now ninety-six years old. She cannot speak, she does not recognize anyone, she cannot feed herself or swallow. It is doubtful that she can see or hear. She has to be diapered. Without the feeding tube, she would die very quickly. With the feeding tube - she could live for another six years.

My grandmother was a vital, active, happy person, and she would snatch the people who insist on keeping her in this state baldheaded if she knew. My grandmother used to dance the Charleston for us kids, and was a real Auntie Mame type. She told wonderful stories and loved to go out dancing with her boyfriends (she was a swinger). She isn't that pathetic, twisted pretzel of bones in the nursing home.

My heart cries for your grandmother and mine. We live in a mad world, where horribly damaged people like this are kept indefinitely alive, while other people can't have proper health care, and even more people are losing their lives in wars and through genocide.

[mondo joe]

75. If Terri were MY child I'd have eased her way out, not made it a circus

Terri made her wishes known - wishes her parents admit they would defy even if they KNEW she wanted life support removed.

Parenthood does not equal virtue. And these parents are a textbook example of BAD people.

[DemBones DemBones]

78. But she was THEIR child and they don't believe that she wanted

to be killed when in such a situation. Remember that she was not terminally ill and her organ systems were apparently all functioning well. She could have lived for years with nutrition and hydration.

And they believe she was in some way conscious. If you saw the video of her, you have to admit she appeared to be responsive and not blind or deaf.

[slackmaster]

81. The video was edited to make it appear that she was responsive

With her visual cortex gone there is no way she could have seen anything.

[mondo joe]

82. They said they would deny her wishes even if they KNEW she wanted life

support removed. So what they thought doesn't matter and can't be believed.

And I saw their FRAUDULENT video. I am unmoved by trickery.

[phylny]

89. With all due respect, and I mean this even though I'm incredulous

do you NOT GET that the parents were/are delusional and wrong?

No matter what I'd "admit" regarding how she appeared, I wouldn't assume that I knew more than dozens of doctors. I just wouldn't.

And God forbid one of our precious daughters were in PVS, I would do the most loving and selfless thing and let them go - and yes, by withholding nutrition and hydration. See, I love them that much that I would know it was NOT all about me.

[DemBones DemBones]

99. God forbid you or I or any of us ever has to go through what they have

gone through. It could make anyone delusional. As a teacher, I saw more than enough parents permanently damaged by a teenaged child's death. I've known parents who went to the cemetery to visit their child's grave every day for decades, presumable will continue until they die. The death of a child breaks up many marriages. And that all happens with "natural" deaths, deaths due to accident or illness. When a child is deliberately killed, it's even worse. The Schindlers' child was killed by court order. I never dreamed we'd see such a thing in this country.

[mondo joe]

111. I wouldn't go through what they went through because I'm not them.

And I wouldn't refuse the science or my daughter's wishes.

Terri was not killed by court order. Her wishes were upheld by court order.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

123. Plenty

of people, including some of us right here right now have gone through this exact same thing. Until you do, do not presume to know what it is like and how one should respond.

I'm curious, what are your feelings on the little girl in Texas that she and her parents decided to not continue treatment for her cancer so the wonderful state of Texas took her away from her parents because they know what is best for her. Do you think it is right for this child to die in foster care away from her family?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

121. First off

She was no longer their CHILD. She was a grown brain dead married woman.

I will always be my parents child. But I have long ago stopped being their CHILD. They no longer have any control over my life or my death for that matter. That is part of the issue here. Parents do not retain full control over their kids forever.

[friesianrider]

140. But she WAS deaf...

I mean come on, how long do parents control their children's futures for God's sake?

[friesianrider]

143. Oh sure, it's EASY for the parents!

They get to visit Terri for a few hours then go out to dinner with the family, talk about daily things, laugh, share a dessert, and go home. The next day they get to wake up, run some errands, maybe do some shopping, go home and weed the garden or sit outside on the patio. All the while Terri is living like a vegetable, unable to enjoy even the most basic things in life.

How incredibly, incredibly selfish of her parents.

[0007]

77. .....and opinions are like assholes everyone has one.

[slackmaster]

80. I hope I would do a better job of getting through the stages of grief

I believe my level-headed nature would make my coping more like that of Michael Schiavo. He got through all the denial and anger parts years ago when he realized that only the empty container of his wife's body was left behind; that she was gone forever.

...she certainly appeared to have some semblance of consciousness...

No she did not.

[DemBones DemBones]

101. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. It's a lot easier

to say what you'd do when it's not happening to you. None of us really know until it becomes a personal matter.

[jwirr]

85. My family could be in the same position

as my oldest daughter is severely disabled. We unlike these parents siblings would not want her to suffer when the end comes but I will admit that I would not take her feeding tube out - it is there because she cannot swallow properly and she was slowly starving to death. But if and when she dies I will take comfort in the fact that we did the best we could for her and that she is now with the Lord. What these parents seem to have forgotten is that death is no longer the enemy. It is a gateway into the Lords presence. One of the problems with modern mankind is that we want to live to an impossible age because we are afraid of death. To me that is blatant lack of faith.

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. Exactly. There's a difference between keeping someone alive and keeping

themn from death.

We can hook any near-death body up to a machine. Are they alive? Are they dead? Are they in some sort of in-between hell becasue we can neither fix them nor let them go?

Sometimes to hold on is to be selfish.

BUT, I can understand wanting to hold out for that last chance that it will turn out ok. Esp when it's your baby.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

120. Well I do

have a child. Two of them as a matter of fact. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would not, I reapeat WOULD NOT make a complete circus of them when they were their most vulnerable. EVER! I also, as a mother, would put what was best for them, not me first. And I can not say that having them lay in a bed brain damaged beyond any hope of any kind of life EVER would be what was best for them. It is selfish to put it mildly. So the "what if this was your child" doesn't quite elicit the type of response from me that I am sure you were wanting. Would it be tragic? Yes it would. Would it be the most difficult thing ever? Yes it would. But when I had children it was not so I could use them to make ME feel better.

[catnhatnh]

69. Who is disgusting or wrong....

...are multiple posters here that ascribe motives of greed or lust after notoriety to grieving parents. which part of their grieving and confusion do you not get??? After several years of THE MEDIA hyping this you would rather attack the parents rather than an intrusive federal government (supposedly republican) that injected itself into what was not only NOT federal but probably not even the state of Florida's business. Were they wrong-YES...But attacking them is horseshit....sorry-but I repeat-HORSE SHIT.

[Old and In the Way]

74. Sorry, they promoted and enabled the spectacle.

Time and again they chose to disregard medical science and made their daughter a cause celeb for their own ends. If they cared for Terri, they'd never have allowed her body to be used as a vehicle to promote the media circus that they created.

Grieving parents? I never saw that....I think the grieving ended a decade ago when the self-promotion began. It wasn't about Terri...it was about them.

[mondo joe]

76. They hyped it TO the media. They made it a circus. And for $ too.

They deserve not an ounce of sympathy.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

125. This would

never have gotten to the government or the media circus if these parents had not put it there. They were the ones begging the governor and the congress and the president to give them their way when the normal judicial process didn't go the way they wanted it to. And that is the real horseshit!

The soap box sure is crowded.

[AntiCoup2K4]

128. I think the parents were merely gullible and deluded.

They expected a miraculous recovery, and continued to do so long after it was medically impossible. Even now they're in denial.

I blame Bobby Schindler Jr. It's obvious that he's nothing but an opportunistic Republican sleazeball who thought he could cash in on the vegetable who was once his sister. And as I said elsewhere, the sniveling little bastard will use this to run for Congress. If Cruella Harris can get elected, Ghoulish Bobby shouldn't have a problem.

[Imagine My Surprise]

70. "A fool is of the same opinion, still" -- applies here.

[steve2470]

73. I feel bad for them and their loss. That being sad, do your grieving

and drop all the BS. Try to enjoy the rest of your lives instead of consorting with RW whores.

[LittleClarkie]

83. Kind of like John O'Neill

Kerry signs the 180, there's nothing incrimiating in his file, but O'Neill still insists that there is something wrong.

What, is denial a right wing hobby or something?

[NuttyFluffers]

86. they also don't believe in respect and dignity of their daughter either.

whatever. they're in the wrong, tried to run roughshod over poor daughters wishes, fought over money, made the last moments into a shameless circus, and they still want to continue this madness.

i've had enough. i don't care what these family members do anymore. it seems like the only one who really cared about her was her husband. may we all find a SO who will be by our side through our darkest hours and fight to respect our last wishes and dignity even against misguided and self-righteous "kindness."

[SlavesandBulldozers]

90. ok these people are mentally ill

and have no respect for the law or human dignity. somebody please shut them the f u.

[Endangered Specie]

91. Funny, I dont believe the Schiavo parents...

imagine that :shrug:

[Placebo]

92. They're so selfish...

they can't even admit that they were wrong.

[DemBones DemBones]

95. Why is it so wrong for parents to love their child and oppose

the death she was subjected to?

Their experience of being with her convinced them she was in some way conscious so of course they don't believe the autopsy report is correct.

Don't you think Michael Schiavo would be issuing statements decrying the autopsy if the medical examiner had said Terri was NOT in a persistent vegetative state?

[mondo joe]

112. They admitted they'd defy her wishes about life support even if they KNEW

she didn't want it. THAT is selfishness.

They have denied the facts all along and they continue to do so. They have made their own hell.

[Lindacooks]

93. 'Terri Schiavo's parents don't believe in gravity.'

News at 11.

[Generator]

94. Of course not

I'm sick to death of people like these being given media airplay. Maybe they believe the earth is flat too. Who gives a shit?? This world has some facts..and if you don't believe them they usually call you INSANE or at the very least, damn ignorant - and don't give you access to media for the rest of your life.

Maybe she will break through her coffin and come over for Father's day too. Next up on CNN...

[expatriate]

96. In the past I've worked in a hospital

which had many inpatients who were drastically brain damaged. This reaction is not rare on the part of parents. Often, parents will read hope into any little thing. I've seen parents sit by the bedside of a child who had no brain function to speak of other than the most basic brain stem reflexes, and insist that any vocalization the child made was coherent speech. I've even seen a parent hear a child's stomach rumble, and insist that it was speech. Denial does terrible things to people. I've seen parents who refused to believe that a dead child was dead, even when the body began to stiffen.

Denial is often complicated by the inability to back down, even when faced with irrefutable evidence to the contrary of what one believes. Even if the Schindlers are doubting their own stance, at this point they have been so publicized that they aren't going to be able to back down. No matter who said that their daughter had no mentality, they will always refute it. They seem to be very rigid people and people like that will never bend, no matter what.

What's truly tragic is that the entire thing was made into such a media and political circus.

[DemBones DemBones]

115. Thanks for a wonderfully sensible post.

The Schindlers are not the monsters that some DUers want to make them out to be, IMO. They are bereaved parents in denial.

Most people here probably have no experience with bereaved parents in denial. I did have a bit of such experience when I was teaching in a high school with a depressingly high student death rate. It's a terrible thing to see, what grief does to people who lose a child. It's nothing like losing a parent, grandparent, or even a spouse.

It's also very common for parents to blame the dead child's friend(s) or SO, or spouse if the child is older and married. Initially, the Schindlers took Michael Schiavo into their home and all were focused on helping Terri recover. He said he would go to nursing school and learn how to care for. He gave them cause to blame him by suddenly "remembering" that Terri would want to die and by refusing to repay them for some of the money they'd put into Terri's care when he got a settlement in his lawsuit. But the split may have been inevitable, given how many parents look for someone to blame.

And let's face it -- Michael Schiavo would be in angry denial if the autopsy had said Terri did not have PVS and might have recovered with therapy. No matter what, the autopsy was going to make someone unhappy.

[Susang]

136. Wow, you got the "facts" all messed up

As I understand it, Michael Schiavo did attend nursing school and is an ER nurse, according to this CNN interview. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/27/lkl.00.html

He didn't "suddenly remember" that she wanted to die, after years of taking care of her, he finally became convinced that there was no hope for her recovery and felt it was time to honor her wishes. Wishes that her parents fully admitted that they wouldn't have followed anyway.

I felt some modicum of sympathy for the parents, but it evaporated the moment they enlisted Randall Terry to be their PR representative. They turned their daughter's tragic death into the media circus it became because of that act. We criticize parents who abuse and cause grievous harm to their children all the time. Why should what the Schindlers did to Terri be immune from this kind of criticism?

[NoSheep]

139. Is it not also true that they agreed with their son-in-law until he won a

settlement and didn't share it with them? I thought we'd hashed all this out already. Think of the money that was poured into that case for political gain. The parents had to keep fighting. They'd accepted all this money to keep her alive and fight the case in courts. What were they going to do? Walk away?

[Susang]

145. I thought it had been all hashed out myself

This thread seems to prove otherwise.

S

[spanone]

98. I saw the attorney Gibbs....scary.

[Deja Q]

100. A parent's mindset, for better or worse, can take precedent over logic.

[readermostly]

102. Now that Sean Vanity has asked Mark Fuhrman to write a book about

the case, which will be coming out in a couple of weeks, I fear he's going to find whatever Sean wants the outcome to be, instead of being objective. Heard a while back that neither Michael Schiavo nor his family were contacted (at least at that time) for their input. It seems there is a definite desire to incriminate Michael in the original collapse, just like before. The autopsy won't ever convince the most die-hards. By the way, how could Mark write this book without the facts of the autopsy?

[DS1]

103. Can't we just have everyone involved shot and be done with it?

FFS :eyes: :nuke:

[Stuckinthebush]

109. Faith is very powerful...and irrational

They have faith in their belief that their daughter was just fine. Nothing will change that.

Sad.

[friesianrider]

119. It's so sad...

I feel nothing but compassion for these people, but they are in severe denial about their poor daughter's condition. There is just no "happy" part of this story, and I sincerely feel terrible for all they've been through. But being in denial about what is a near certainty now only will likely make them feel even worse.

For Catholics, surely they must find comfort in the belief that Terri is in a far better place than on this Earth in the condition she was - persistent vegetative state or not. I sure hope that wherever Terri is, she is free from the health problems that plagued her last few years on Earth.

[goclark]

122. The husband needs to sue these people

they have truly haunted him for all these years.

[AntiCoup2K4]

126. The end result of this shit is obvious

The sleazeball brother Bobby Jr, likely the one who got the Repukes involved in the first place will use the fame he got from his sister's corpse to run for congress. And the Bush controlled machine in Florida will ensure the fuck gets "elected"

[GodHelpUsAll2]

127. You have a point

A very good one at that.

[kenny blankenship]

131. Here's what I don't get

The Schindlers maintain that Terri was in some form of conscious state. They can hardly deny that she was profoundly brain-damaged. They cannot deny that doctors and specialists time and again over the years found her unable to interact with sensory stimuli. Why wouldn't they suspect, given the pervasive damage to her brain and her inability to control any part of her body, her inability to respond to voices, or to recognize faces, or even to swallow, that whatever might be left of her consciousness for all those years would surely be experiencing a level of disorientation that would amount to a living hell?

The most basic thing the mind does is orient itself and the body in its surroundings. This hypothetical state of mind--the hypothesis of the Schindlers that inside this liquefied sac of former brains there was still a person--would have either been unable to receive sensory information in order to orient itself, or else it did receive some sensory input but was unable to coordinate any response to that input that resembled conscious intention to clinical observers. One of those two conditions are required to explain the clinical finding that Terri was vegetative, that is, unable to experience and interact even minimally with her environment.

If you believed there was still someone in there somewhere, someone who can't consciously move her own little finger, or her eyelids, who can't swallow, who doesn't respond to voices, who cannot interact with her environment in any discernible way, but was nevertheless somehow CONSCIOUS, then what is the quality of the consciousness that they experience? You have to have an answer for that, unless you're ready to admit you're only concerned about your own feelings and your desire to keep her body above ground.

If you believe your daughter still exists in a conscious state despite the repeated findings of doctors that she is cut off from all sensory experience, then you believe that your daughter's mind is living in the equivalent of a sealed up coffee can. If there is any consciousness there, deprived of interaction with the world around it, it would be tormented to insanity within a few weeks. on edit: looks like I was being way too conservative with that guess. Research puts a much lower threshold on psychotic breakdowns due to total sensory deprivation. It's more like 24 hours or so.

Anyone who would deliberately keep their child's brain alive or anyone alive in a coffee can for 10 years or more is an immoral monster. The Schindler's aren't monsters, but through their immoral selfishness they would have done a MONSTROUS thing, even if their belief about their daughter's state of consciousness were not mistaken.

[democracyindanger]

133. But they did deny what doctors found.

They denied it time and again. And they also testified in one of the court cases that even if Terri needed to have limbs amputated, they'd do it just so they could have her around.

It's necrophilia. After they dragged Randall Terry out and continued to accuse Michael Schiavo of abuse and causing her condition, I lost whatever doubts I had. They're sick, and beneath my contempt.

[elperromagico]

137. God Himself could come to them and say,

"Terri was never going to get better." They would argue about it.

Sometimes when you genuinely believe something, no matter how wrong it is, neither Hell nor high water will shake you.

[NoSheep]

138. I don't believe Schiavo's parents!

:shrug: