The DSM is just getting your false hopes up

[Zomby Woof]

I can hear the crash of disappointment now, as the DSM will fade away...

This reminds me of 2002, 2003, when Enron, no wait, the 9/11 Commission Hearings, no wait, Valerie Plame, no wait... *insert whatever "Bush Is Toast" story du jour was making the rounds*

It would be fantastic if I were wrong, but I am not, unfortunately.

There will not be any impeachment (with the Repukes controlling both houses of Congress?), there will not be any public outcry for justice, and the war in Iraq will drag on... without a draft.

I've seen this pattern too many times on these very boards. At least I haven't seen any "drip drip drip, just like Watergate!" threads. Some lessons have been learned, perhaps.

But hey, knock yourself out. Just know I told you all this already 2 or 3 years ago. 2005 is no different. Not even abysmally low ratings for The Unchosen One will sink him. The rat bastard is around until at least January 20, 2009. America is asleep, and a feeding tube of "news" propaganda is inserted up its ass, in perpetuity.

If I am wrong (and I am not), I will own up to it and apologize publically, right here.

I won't be holding my breath.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Agreed the draft will be needed for the sheeple to wake up

and we had a full day of arguing this

[Zomby Woof]

2. But you see...

There isn't going to be any draft.

Although if forced, I would give it better odds than an impeachment.

[mirandapriestly]

3. I recognize the pattern, too

But, there does seem to be more cognizance of the significance of this by the media, even though they had to be shamed into it. I loved them blaming it on AP for not telling them it was "significant". If this blows over then we are doomed, not only for the next four years , but for a long time because I don't believe for a minute that these people allow fair elections to take place.

[BurtWorm]

9. Actually, the media seem to be circling their wagons

trying to pretend that the DSMs are no big deal, that this was all known and reported on (so they have the nerve to say!) in 2002, that these are no smoking guns (which very few people are claiming anyway). The NY Times had a front page "news story" to that effect earlier this week, and the Washington Post said essentially the same thing in an editorial yesterday. And the AP is backing away from the story.

The media are annoyed with the e-mail campaign to get them to pay attention. Well, tough shit to them. The right has been cracking the whip for twenty years and the media jump when they hear the sound. If we want them to jump for us, we have to crack the whip too.

[Zomby Woof]

20. What kind of amuses me...

Is that when I tell an uncomfortable truth, I get rebuked because I am not saying what some people want to hear.

I am not here to comfort anyone.

[Snotcicles]

95. Speaking of uncomfortable truth

it is all for not if we don't get paper verified voting.

[Devlzown]

4. I agree.

[knowbody0]

5. zombie, baby

we have to fight. it's in our blood

[Zomby Woof]

7. Like I said in the OP...

Knock yourself out. :-)

I am *not* saying "don't fight", I am just laying out the ZombyTroof about the Big Picture with the latest craze.

Fighting isn't in my blood. I publicly announced right after the 2004 (s)election that I don't fight rigged matches.

[doublethink]

40. I'm with you ......

Never Give Up ...... Never Surrender !!!!!!! Never !!! :grr:

[LightningFlash]

6. Blow into the wind? I wouldn't say that.....

"Chairman Conyers,

It's official: The Downing Street memos, a snooty New York Times "News Analysis" informs us, "are not the Dead Sea Scrolls." You are warned, Congressman, to ignore the clear evidence of official mendacity and bald-faced fibbing by our two nations' leaders because the cry for investigation came from the dark and dangerous world of "blogs" and "opponents" of Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush.

On May 5, "blog" site Buzzflash.com carried my story, IMPEACHMENT TIME: "FACTS WERE FIXED," bringing the London Times report of the Downing Street memo to US media which seemed to be suffering at the time from an attack of NADD -- "news attention deficit disorder."

The memo, which contains the ill-making admission that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed" to match the Iraq-crazed fantasies of our President, is sufficient basis for a hearing toward impeachment of the Chief Executive. But to that we must add the other evidence and secret memos and documents still hidden from the American public.

Other foreign-based journalists could doubtless add more, including the disclosure that the key inspector of Iraq's biological weapons, the late Dr. David Kelly, found the Bush-Blair analysis of his intelligence was indeed "fixed," as the Downing Street memo puts it, around the war-hawk policy.

Here is a small timeline of confidential skullduggery dug up and broadcast by my own team for BBC Television and Harper's on the secret plans to seize Iraq's assets and oil.

February 2001 - Only one month after the first Bush-Cheney inauguration, the State Department's Pam Quanrud organizes a secret confab in California to make plans for the invasion of Iraq and removal of Saddam. US oil industry advisor Falah Aljibury and others are asked to interview would-be replacements for a new US-installed dictator.

On BBC Television's Newsnight, Aljibury himself explained,

"It is an invasion, but it will act like a coup. The original plan was to liberate Iraq from the Saddamists and from the regime."

March 2001 - Vice-President Dick Cheney meets with oil company executives and reviews oil field maps of Iraq. Cheney refuses to release the names of those attending or their purpose. Harper's has since learned their plan and purpose -- see below.

October/November 2001 - An easy military victory in Afghanistan emboldens then-Dep. Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to convince the Administration to junk the State Department "coup" plan in favor of an invasion and occupation that could remake the economy of Iraq. And elaborate plan, ultimately summarized in a 101-page document, scopes out the "sale of all state enterprises" -- that is, most of the nation's assets, "… especially in the oil and supporting industries."

2002 - Grover Norquist and other corporate lobbyists meet secretly with Defense, State and Treasury officials to ensure the invasion plans for Iraq include plans for protecting "property rights." The result was a pre-invasion scheme to sell off Iraq's oil fields, banks, electric systems, and even change the country's copyright laws to the benefit of the lobbyists' clients. Occupation chief Paul Bremer would later order these giveaways into Iraq law.

Fall 2002 - Philip Carroll, former CEO of Shell Oil USA, is brought in by the Pentagon to plan the management of Iraq's oil fields. He works directly with Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith. "There were plans," says Carroll, "maybe even too many plans" -- but none disclosed to the public nor even the US Congress.

January 2003 - Robert Ebel, former CIA oil analyst, is sent, BBC learns, to London to meet with Fadhil Chalabi to plan terms for taking over Iraq's oil.

March 2003 - What White House spokesman Ari Fleisher calls "Operations Iraqi Liberation" (OIL) begins. (Invasion is re-christened "OIF" -- Operation Iraqi Freedom.)

March 2003 - Defense Department is told in confidence by US Energy Information Administrator Guy Caruso that Iraq's fields are incapable of a massive increase in output. Despite this intelligence, Dep. Secretary Wolfowitz testifies to Congress that invasion will be a free ride. He swears, "There's a lot of money to pay for this that doesn't have to be U.S. taxpayer money. …We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon," a deliberate fabrication promoted by the Administration, an insider told BBC, as "part of the sales pitch" for war.

May 2003 - General Jay Garner, appointed by Bush as viceroy over Iraq, is fired by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The general revealed in an interview for BBC that he resisted White House plans to sell off Iraq's oil and national assets.

"That's just one fight you don't want to take on," Garner told me. But apparently, the White House wanted that fight.

The general also disclosed that these invade-and-grab plans were developed long before the US asserted that Saddam still held WDM:

"All I can tell you is the plans were pretty elaborate; they didn't start them in 2002, they were started in 2001."

November/December 2003 - Secrecy and misinformation continues even after the invasion. The oil industry objects to the State Department plans for Iraq's oil fields and drafts for the Administration a 323-page plan, "Options for Iraqi Oil Industry." Per the industry plan, the US forces Iraq to create an OPEC-friendly state oil company that supports the OPEC cartel's extortionate price for petroleum.

The Stone Wall

Harper's and BBC obtained the plans despite official denial of their existence, then footdragging when confronted with the evidence of the reports' existence.

Still today, the State and Defense Departments and White House continue to stonewall our demands for the notes of the meetings between lobbyists, oil industry consultants and key Administration officials that would reveal the hidden economic motives for the war.

What are the secret interests behind this occupation? Who benefits? Who met with whom? Why won't this Administration release these documents of the economic blueprint for the war?

To date, the State and Defense Department responses to our reports are risible, and their answers to our requests for documents run from evasive to downright misleading. Maybe Congress, with it's power of subpoena, can do better.

Blogs, the Media and Democracy

Let me conclude with a comment about those pesky "blogs" that so bother the New York Times. We should stand and offer a moment of quiet gratitude to the electronic swarm of gadfly commentators who make it so much harder for the US media to ignore news not officially blessed. Yes, Judith Miller's breathless reports for The Times that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction may have maintained "access" for the mainstream press to its diet of White House propaganda, but the blogs insure that, whatever nonsense the US press is biting on, the public need not swallow.


This week Greg Palast's investigative team was named winner of a 2004-5 Project Censored award from the California State University at Sonoma Journalism School for their exposé of the secret US plans to seize Iraq's oil assets. Special thanks to the chief investigator on Iraq, Leni von Eckardt, as well as additional support from Matt Pascarella. The investigation was conducted for Harper's Magazine, BBC Television Newsnight and "blog" outlet TomPaine.com. "

http://www.gregpalast.com

Greg has nailed down the full story, with much more (broadcast, a little video, BBC channel...)

[Zomby Woof]

12. Your efforts at documenting are all well and good

But I have seen their likes before. Do some digging in the DU archives, and you will see a plethora of well-documented timelines in posts very much like yours - whose accuracy is a given - about Valerie Plame, the 9/11 Hearings, et al.

If anything, your post just strengthens my OP by its own weight. It has an inversely proportional effect on public opinion by the seriousness of the matter.

[LightningFlash]

19. You've never seen anything like this before...

Now moreover 1,000,000 signatures......Letter to be tacked on the white house, and more polls plummeting abound in every direction.

Congress just reversed the appeal on the patriot act. It's time to start preparing....

[Zomby Woof]

23. Yet

All of those otherwise positive developments are no match for a multibillion dollar propaganda machine called "the media".

With a population of 300 million, I will change my opinion when we get upwards of let's say, 151 million. If we're not even at 1%, we're not very close.

The Patriot Act need not exist in order for law enforcement to stymie our civil liberties. They have ways around it, and have for many, many years. The Patriot Act was just window dressing put on as a way of Congress and the Justice Department pretending to be "tough on terror". But it was never necessary to meet its ends.

[LightningFlash]

25. Those who always see the downside.....

Keep it in existence.

(Over 40 media institutions have started to really bite it seriously...)

[cynatnite]

27. Nothing wrong with being skeptical

The whole Gannon/Guckert thing was something I never believed would go anywhere. It wasn't enough to really do any damage to this regime. I posted as much here at DU. Not many cared to hear my skepticism.

I wasn't being a downer. It was just what I thought.

I can understand some not wanting and not allowing their hopes to be raised by this. There've been many instances that should have broken open with a full blown scandal and didn't.

I'm a little more hopeful about this, but working at keeping it in check.

[Zomby Woof]

34. I forgot about Gannon

Guess it made no impression on me, lol. But it fits the model I am talking about perfectly.

I wish people would understand I am not trying to talk them out of anything. I am just presenting my view, and am perfectly happy with people sticking to their guns, no matter how far they differ with me on the projected outcome.

[BurtWorm]

36. Gannon didn't go anywhere because it made no sense.

Gannon was a nobody. The people involved in the DSMs are the people who actually made the war happen against the will of the world.

The reason to be doubtful about the DSMs, though, has more to do with the fact that this Congress will never allow Bush to be investigated. The media can be frog-marched into covering them, but this Congress and Justice Dept. cannot be bribed, even, to admit Bush is a lowlife criminal.

[Zomby Woof]

30. If that were true

Why aren't those who "see the upside" keeping it in existence? Does it only work one way?

A flawed premise to be sure. I am not seeing a "downside", just the "truthside", and just because you don't like it, or want to hear it, doesn't give it magical powers over the seers of "the upside".

Over 40? I never confuse quantity with quality.

[LightningFlash]

35. Wrong, your focus determines your reality...

Focusing on the downside, becomes your truthside...

Likewise focusing on the upside, becomes it as well...

And you learn to balance it, or fail to do so, depending on you.

The truth depends on the message of its senders, little else is of any relevance.

[Zomby Woof]

39. if only that were so

The truth is a casualty of the times, even in the hallowed forums of DU.

Your argument reminds me of the rock music censors who believe certain kinds of lyrics cand influence negative behavior. It's such a bad premise on its face, it almost refutes itself. :-)

[LightningFlash]

43. Your words are an example of it.....Focus determines reality, always.

[Zomby Woof]

48. Well, shit

Sorry I ruined the DSM story from bringing down Bush. x( D'oh! My "focus", indeed! :eyes:

My reality is healthy. I stay on an even keel, and refuse to get on the roller coaster ride of "OMG! We're UP! OMG! We're doomed!". It's a terrible way to live, but to each their own (which is more courtesy than I am being afforded by the detractors). :-)

[timtom]

89. I never agreed with anything more....

AND, because no human can see around corners in space and time, we can't discount the unimaginable. Truth has a way of coming to the surface. I don't know when or how, but this administration will face a reckoning.

[leeroysphitz]

113. sorry to argue but...

REALITY determines reality... Your point of view sounds
way to "Faith based" vs. reality based to me (we've seen how THAT particular world view has served us lately.)

[Raksha]

41. WE ARE!!!

Re >>If that were true, Why aren't those who "see the upside" keeping it in existence?<<

I'll go further than that: Those of us who "see the upside," like those of us here on DU, are just about the ONLY thing keeping it in existence in BushCo's America. If it weren't for us there wouldn't even BE an upside! That's actually a hell of a lot of power for such a small minority, when you think about it.

[Zomby Woof]

46. So should DUers be a monolithic Optimists Club?

I am a bit perplexed by the idea that we all should be of one mind on how to go about posting opinions on a message board.

The "upside" is not in existence, or Bush would have been impeached on 9/12/01 (believe me, some people actually predicted that, semi-satirically speaking). The "upside" had him impeached 7 or 8 times by now.

To me, telling the truth is its own "upside", if I were to use that term with any degree of earnestness.

[Raksha]

78. I don't think DU is in any danger of becoming...

...a "monolithic optimist's club." None of us are optimistic all the time. But it takes some small degree of optimism even to get out of bed, much less circulate a petition or write a letter to the editor. We have to have some small degree of hope that our efforts will succeed or nobody would ever do anything.

You could very well be right that even the DSM hearings tomorrow won't make any real difference. But I don't think so, because the mood of the country is very different than it was even a few months ago. I took an AOL poll this morning, and Bush's overall approval rating was close to 80% NEGATIVE, and above 80% on his handling of the war on Iraq. I was amazed, because I think of AOL as a pretty conservative population.

I'm not sure what did this exactly. It might not have been any one particular "smoking gun." Maybe the effect was cumulative. But at some critical point, Bush lost the confidence of the American people, and I mean the majority of them, and there is no way he's going to get it back.

I think the mood of the country is "ripe" for the Downing Street minutes. If there isn't more outrage it's only because not many people know about it yet, but that's going to change after tomorrow.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

31. ZombyWolf, why are you so dedicated to saving the rest of

us from our delusions of hope? Do you have any constructive ideas? If so, please present them.

[Zomby Woof]

37. That is hardly the case

I am not dedicated to much of anything other than presenting my own view.

Certainly, I do not see myself as anyone's savior, LOL.

I will say though, that giving people a strong dose of the unpleasant truth is in itself a constructive idea. How can the truth be otherwise? I learn from history, and I present my own version of it unvarnished.

I suspect that the "constructive" message you are looking for is more of the same "rah rah, they are all toast now!" rhetoric that I abhor. The majority of opinion in GD is counter to mine. I would not be true to myself if I assented to those views just for the sake of harmony, comfort, and convenience.

[Hapameli]

8. Why come here just to be a naysayer? I'd expect better from a Dodger fan

World peace might not happen, but is it not a worthy goal to work towards? You don't know if the Dodgers are going to the World Series, but you'll still believe until its mathamatically impossible, right?

You are wrong.

[Zomby Woof]

15. I am not a naysayer

I am a truthsayer. A very big difference.

As for the Dodger metaphor: I think their chances for winning the Series this year are slim. I enjoy the game just fine even when I stay within reason on my realistic assessment of the facts (or in this case, the quality of play).

Truth is not beauty.

And I am right.

[BurtWorm]

50. Are too!

;)

[LuPeRcALiO]

54. Just remember that truth is stranger than fiction

and the end of this story will probably be more sordid, sick and surreal than any Hollywood hack could imagine.

And impeachment could easily be in the cards.

[BurtWorm]

56. Not easily. Not with this Congress.

[nini]

107. If your argument is bringing up the Dodgers. then I have to wonder

about your sense of sorting out possibility

:eyes:

Who said working towards world peace is not a worthy project.

IF you believe this will be a sure thing with the congress we have now you are naive. It's the whole freaking system that is rigged.

We all hope the shit hits the fan on this - it has to. BUT I do not have confidence in the current congress and admin to let democracy play out. They have proven too many times they prefer to spin the truth than to do what they've sworn to defend the constitution for.

[BigBearJohn]

10. Jeesh, I'm so glad you opened my eyes. I would hate to think there was

any hope left in this world. Good job!

[Mad_Dem_X]

173. LOL - yes, let's just stop fighting them now

Let's stop trying because we will never, ever win.

Sorry, I'm going to keep fighting. :patriot:

[yowzayowzayowza]

11. They have had no bounds for some time.

After Coup2k, I'm sure the DSM will fit under the Whitehouse entry way rug very easily. The orthodoxy ruled Repubz, complacent middle and hypnotized press will remain impervious to any far-away facts that might rock their respective world views.

Sad, but true.

[Zomby Woof]

18. It sucks ass

But there it is.

I think I will bookmark this thread and trot it out around October or so. DSM will be nostalgia by then, a la Valerie Plame.

[bicentennial_baby]

13. I suspect you are correct

Unfortunately.

[dethl]

14. The MSM will make sure that the DSM is drowned in a sea of irrelevance

Why else is the news filled with the utter crap they keep spewing day after day?

[Zomby Woof]

16. That is pretty much what I am saying

I am just saying it in my own way. But the game is rigged, as it were.

All we can do is take solace in knowing we know the truth, and accept we are not going to make much headway with it among the masses.

[BurtWorm]

21. It's filled with what it's filled with out of force of habit.

That is what the media have come to be. They are not in the information business. They're in the entertainment, stupefaction business.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rockymountaindem]

22. Thanks for writing that post.

Now I don't have to.

[cynatnite]

24. Corporate media has no choice now but to cover it

I don't know how far these hearings will go. I do hope someone in the democratic leadership will stand up and say that he lied and thousands died as a result.

I hope this hearing covers the corruptness and profiteering that's gone on since bush and his minions started it. With the rounding up of thousands of people, handing out contracts to their buddies and billions of dollars gone missing this seems to me to show a pattern of behavior by an administration who put our soldiers in harm's way not to free a country or to protect the US, but to line their own pockets while forcing an agenda through manipulation, bullying and other criminal behavior.

When I look at this...DSM is the smoking gun. The profiteering and furthering of a neo-con agenda was the motive. bush and his buddies are the criminals.

The three I's are my hope. Impeach, Indict and Imprison.

[Zomby Woof]

26. Soldiers have long been mercenaries

Woodrow Wilson sent Marines to Central America to "protect" the United Fruit Company from labor unrest and strikes, as did subsequent presidents. Very few times has the military actually been used for its stated purpose.

The sad fact is, the well is poisoned, even before Watergate. People have built up an astrounding level of either tolerance and/or acceptance of this kind of behavior from their government and business leaders (which are more and more becoming indistinguishable). We live in the Age of Low Expectations, and Chimpy is the perfect symbol for this Age.

[Hapameli]

33. So, what are YOU doing to change this? Besides attempting to bring

everyone down, people who have been doing very HARD WORK to alert the media and organize rallies across the country *tomorrow*?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. What are you?

[Zomby Woof]

42. I am attempting no such thing

I only have whatever power you give me (which I would think is NONE), and I certainly can not see myself as having the power to "bring anyone down". :-) How you and others feel about the DSM issue is up to you, is it not? I am amazed and amused at how a dissenting view is given a disproportionate amount of pull.

Wow, if I have that kind of pull, I am in the wrong line of work, lol.

I am part of the solution, since you asked. For a creative person like myself, I think solutions should transcend banal and proven failures like rallies and marches as a means of effecting change. Those ideas seem to be part of the problem, actually. Participating in such gives one a false sense of hope that they can actually change a broken system. They can't, and they won't.

(I also fully realize that I have no power to change a multibillon dollar media conglomerate, let alone undo the "hard work" of thousands who oppose it.)

[Hapameli]

49. Okay, I get it. YOU are powerless... however, I AM NOT

So, oh well, sorry that you don't find it important to pound the pavement and wake the sleeping giant.

This conversation is anything but worthwhile and I won't contribute to this thread full of lurking trolls any further.

[LightningFlash]

53. Wise words to never deny....Focus determines your reality. And it does....

[rinsd]

163. "If you clap 3 times you can save Tinkerbell"

So Zomby's a cynic.

He didn't say don't bother. He just doesn't want to see total deflation of morale as has happened with other (many) "Bush is Toast" scandals.

[Zomby Woof]

55. I pounded the pavement many a time

Which led me to be enlightened enough to realize that yes, I am powerless on the MACRO level.

So I redirected my energies at a more MICRO level, with much happier results.

You know nothing of me or my life, or my activism. I am puzzled by the "lurking trolls" comment. I believe everyone in this thread is equally and vehemently opposed to Bush, we just have different ways of going about it.

Check the archives. My creds as a liberal are above reproach. :-)

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

60. Like I said...

I have done the concrete thing. It is the most UNCREATIVE and REACTIONARY way of effecting change. :-) I was at WTO (lived in Seattle for 15 years), I marched against the Iraq war before and during on the streets of Seattle...

I campaigned for Dennis Kucinich in northern AZ after moving here in 2003. Several DUers can vouch for this IN PERSON (as well as Seattle). I have stood in solidarity with the Women in Black right here in Flagstaff AZ. But the war keeps going now, doesn't it? I learned my lesson on "hitting the concrete".

I guess I must repeat myself: Telling you all the truth is constructive.

As for jacking my post count, that comes from socializing in the Lounge and being on DU since 2001.

Good luck with your rallies. Although I am sorry to say they will not get Bush one step closer to impeachment. :-(

[annabanana]

90. If "telling us all the truth is constructive"....then

Telling THEM all the truth is constructive. So, I will happily continue to hollar the truth of the situation until the rest of the country catches up.

[BurtWorm]

29. The three I's won't happen with this Congress.

None will happen without one chamber (preferably the House) going Democratic in 2006. This Congress will not impeach if only Democrats are calling for it. That's a simple fact of life.

But I don't think the country can afford Democrats losing hope that justice will someday be done.

[friesianrider]

28. Unfortunately, probably.

We would NEED the draft to be reinstated for people to care. So long as the majority of the country doesn't have a sacrifice a damn thing, they'll go right on following the sheep's ass in front of them.

[UdoKier]

32. Time magazine reported "Fuck Saddam, we're taking him out"

ages ago. There was no denial, and nobody cared. F-911 exposed Bush's incompetence on 9-11 and business dealings with the people who financed the attack. Nothing.

I think you're pretty much right. Our democratic institutions are probably damaged beyond repair, and it will be way too late when Joe and Jane six-pack finally take their attention off of Fear Factor long enough to really notice what's been happening.

Right-wingers like phrases like "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" because they think it means vigilance against foreign threats.

Too bad more people don't realize that the vigilance that's needed is on our own leaders, to hold back the inexorable lust for power that so often throughout history runs amok, ruining perfectly good democracies.

[lastliberalintexas]

151. Darn good post, UK

[Maddy McCall]

38. Yep.

I agree with every word ya said. Anyone who thinks that Bush won't serve his complete term is delusional.

[blogslut]

44. I understand your misgivings...

...but in the words of Johnny Mercer, Something's Gotta Give.

The crimes are adding up while the dollar is tanking. Our children are dying in Iraq and the bullshit isn't working anymore. Bush's popularity is astoundingly low and the facade is looking more like a facade every day.

Keep the ball rolling. We'll get there.

[Zomby Woof]

51. If I may emphasize this point again

I wish I were wrong, now, and in the past.

I suppose my offer in the OP to apologize if I am ever wrong is not enough to appease those who give me WAY too much power to mold reality.

(Your post was fair, so I have no argument with you)

[berni_mccoy]

45. Damnit! I HATE What you are saying

But,

I fear that it is true,

and yes,

I'll be a sucker one more time.

I'll raise my hopes up for everyone in DU who despairs, just in case you are wrong. Then, when the investigation forces Bush out of office, you can pull this thread out and thank me.

[wookie294]

47. The impeachment drum helps weaken Bush's power

Even if impeachment never occurs, it is STILL important that people continue to beat the impeachment drum since it weakens Bush's presidency and makes it more difficult for him to carryout his insane agenda. Remember how Clinton's impeachment stopped him from concentrating on his agenda? More Americans are waking up to the reality that Bush was not truthful about the reasons for war, thanks to the Impeachment Movement that continues to reverberate throughout America. So, RAVE ON, I say!

[Zomby Woof]

57. Your post is fair

You at least acknowledge that SOME progress is better than NONE, and that this isn't an all or nothing game.

The people who think DSM is the end of Bush are well-intentioned, and gawd bless 'em if they are right - I certainly will be FIRST in line to apologize to them. :-)

[kster]

52. Keep pushing people

things are different now, 500,000+ signatures and 1708 dead soldiers, Honest Republicans moving over to our side, the media coming around reporting on Conyers hearings there is a big difference now.


"This reminds me of 2002, 2003, when Enron, no wait, the 9/11 Commission Hearings, no wait, Valerie Plame, no wait... *insert whatever "Bush Is Toast" story du jour was making the rounds*"


Nope not even close ,we have much more going for us now,than we did back then........... KEEP PUSHING..........

[Zomby Woof]

59. By the time we are done pushing...

It will be February of 2009. ;-)

Who are these "honest Republicans" you speak of? I am highly skeptical they exist. I have seen enough people fall all over themselves defending John McCain on these boards to believe otherwise. He certainly cannot be one of them.

I am not impressed with 500k signatures. In a land of 300 million, that isn't even a ripple from a stream of piss in the pool.

[kster]

130. Looking at it that

way ,I really feel sorry for Rosa Parks she started out with one "herself". Rosa Parks could have whipped some ass if she had the INTERNET and 500,000 of her Friends.

[JCMach1]

61. I agree ZW

:(

[Zomby Woof]

62. I shouldn't fault people for giving a damn

But I have to have my say.

I expect to be vindicated, with no reciprocated offer of an apology. :-)

[Melodybe]

68. Zomby, a post like this would usually bring me down, thinking about

the evils in this world for too long usually brings me down, but you know what, there is this small piece inside myself that will not let me lose hope.

Maybe things will be bad for a long, long time, maybe and probably longer than my life will last. But that hope for a better tomorrow is something that I will pass to children, it's something that I have been instilling in them since the day they were born.

Men and mankind will never truely be lost until hope is gone, I'm sorry that your disappointment and bitterness about the outcome of things is leaving you with so little hope.

By all means, if you want to work on a micro level, I applaud that, as long as you are fighting on some level, I can't be totally mad at you.

Take care of yourself, enjoy the good things in yourlife, maybe they will bring you some hope.

Peace.

[Zomby Woof]

70. I am neither disappointed or bitter

Actually, it has brought me peace and enlightenment to realize that holding on to the old ways does not work. That is the same reason conservatism fails. It clings to the status quo. Many on the Left are quite conservative in a paradoxical way. And quite reactionary, unfortunately.

I have never been disappointed or bitter. The world works pretty much the way it always has, with little surprise. So I appreciate what you mean, but I respectfully tell you those two emotions never came into play.

[Melodybe]

73. Well peace and enlightenment is good.

I'm still working on my own disappointment and bitterness, maybe I was just projecting those words on to you, but if they are what keep the hope in me alive, then maybe I don't want to loose them after all.

I've always liked you Zomby, I think that your wicked funny and I'm glad that you are finding inner peace.

I wish that you still can find some hope in yourself, though, how do you keep going without it?

[Zomby Woof]

79. I have all the hope in the world

That is why I chose the words "false hopes" in my title. REAL hope means things like raising your children to be good, caring people. Or quietly feeding people in need, or helping them pay bills.

Or teaching someone to read.

Or learning a new skill.

I will say again: The point of my post was a plain-spoken cautionary observation of past things I have seen happen to us. NOT a speech to change anyone's minds or hearts.

Thanks for being fair and respectful... I wish more disagreements could be as pleasant.

[Melodybe]

84. You're lucky, I just posted a long feel good, wish washy post

I guess that's the mood I'm in. Man, I've been pretty awful lately though, yelling at folks, accusing them of not doing anything, dissing newbies, you name it. But through all that, I've appologized, made nice and now I've found a few people that are actually going to help me get my millions against the media marches together. Got a PM from some folks in LA that want to help, got a guy that is willing to help in Atlanta, and the state dems in CA, NY, FL, IL, and DC didn't shut me down and want me to write up some proposals for them. I've only been talking about it for two weeks and people want to help. It has invigorated me, people long for change, cause even if they love Bush, they still know that something is not right.

So even though I was being all mad and pounding my fist on the table and my head against the wall, I'm over it now, I guess I had to get the negativity out. Another thing that has changed my attitude as of late, I was lucky enough to take part in campaigning for Dems running in Oxford. MS's local elections. Haley Barbour and his croneys were throwning tons of money in opposition, but guess what, we kicked the asses of the two folks they gave the most money too. We retained our one person majority on the board of aldermen and picked up a seat. Haley was so pissed he called and totally bitched out the one of his candidates. I overheard some republicans that volunteered for them whining about how mean Haley was being, it made my month. FU haley Barbour, you Bush loving scum!!!

So be it micro or macro, all work for goodness is just that.

With the bad comes the good, its all a viscious cycle, Zomby, be the buddha. It seems to be in ya full force.

I agree with everything you're saying though, I've learned over the past few years that these fucking nazis are going to get away with a lot more than they already are, but I won't give up hope that the tide will eventually turn, cause it always does.

Might take a while, but I can deal with that.

[VOX]

64. It's the sad truth, ZeeDub...

With the current congress, there is no way in hell that * would be impeached.

Further, the way in which "news" is now delivered has radically changed from the 1990s -- if what passes for media today were in place in the 1970s, Watergate would have been maybe a two-news-cycle blip, at most.

It's a sorry, sad state of affairs, but you're right on the money. :(

[Zomby Woof]

65. hey KK!

Yes... I think some people are mistaking my certainty and bluntness with a WISH that I was right. Quite the opposite. I state my convictions thus because it steels me for the harsh reality of the game.

I admire that people still fight. I just don't want to read about it in here later when they face the inevitable disappointment. I am impatient with that kind of weepy behavior. ;-) :donut:

[Hapameli]

66. My last four words on the subject: WORLD TRIBUNAL ON IRAQ

See my signature for the address. Nothing is without hope.

[Zomby Woof]

67. How many "last words" is that?

:shrug:

Any "World Tribunal" will be about as effective as a World Court ruling when it comes to how this empire conducts its affairs.

It ain't goin' nowhere!

[Hapameli]

69. Gandhi proved it only takes one non-violent person to change a country

Lucky for us. I still haven't heard you suggest any constructive alternative (or any unconstructive one for that matter), but I won't hold my breath waiting for one. I still don't know why you're even bothering to show up here, it seems like you just don't care anyways.

[Zomby Woof]

75. You question my presence on this board?

I certainly would never have the audacity to question yours. :-(

I thought you were done with this thread, going off to make more posters or get some sleep? Seems strange that an advocate of Gandhi would be so confrontational over something meriting little confrontation as a difference of opinion?

Gandhi didn't waste time arguing with strangers he didn't agree with on a message board. That is the opposite of Gandhi in fact. But I don't claim to be a disciple of him. And history is replete with exceptions to the rule, and his way was not always best for all times or all circumstances. Auschwitz wasn't liberated by a bunch of Gandhis.

Also, I have said TWICE how what I am doing is CONSTRUCTIVE, for ME, on MY TERMS. I have no responsibility for anyone on this board other than myself.

Just because it doesn't involve marching and chanting doesn't mean it isn't constructive.

Truly, those are often the most DESTRUCTIVE means of change. It steels the powers that be against you. They have the money and resources we will never have, 500,000 signatures be damned.

[Hapameli]

77. Okay, Good Night. Hope the morning brings a new optimism for you.

[Zomby Woof]

81. I am the most optimistic person on DU

Bar none.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

82. In theory, maybe

But that theory is being tested like no time since Reagan (the last fitting candidate for impeachment). I shudder to see the revisionism of his "legacy" and know they can do the same to the Coked-Up Chimp.

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

72. You may be right

But you'd be definitely right if we did nothing. I'll take a pass on standing still.

[Hapameli]

74. Thank you Will!

Now I go to sleep. Why are you still up?? Sheesh... :hangover:

[Zomby Woof]

80. You now I love all you do, brother

And you know I wish you well tomorrow, as much as I wish I was wrong.

You also know I will be first in line to grovel if I am proven wrong. :-)

I am not advocating for inaction. I am just so wary of the pattern I have seen these past few years. Just preparing myself for the carnage, provided another upper-class white woman isn't reported missing in the next week....

This is my type of action. It isn't conventional, nor recommended for anyone but myself. I am just another mouth yowling my barbaric yawp in my own Whitmanesque way.

Finally, you know that you are being true to yourself and I am being true to myself. What more could one ask of a long time fellow traveler?

[LuPeRcALiO]

76. You're misunderestimating the folly of this administration.

1) Iraq is a huge bust.
2) Deficit is a huge bust.
3) Dollar is a huge bust.
4) Jobs are a huge bust.
5) He's screwing around with the THIRD RAIL of politics, and that's a huge bust.

Conclusion? Anyway you slice it, he's toast.

[Zomby Woof]

83. The toast is stale

Similar lists were offered up 2 and 3 years ago, right up until last November. Especially on the economy. Always with the toast! Too bad the toast folks never publicly acknowledged I was right like I have offered to do for them in reverse.

America is the Land of Low Expectations. People have learned to love their low wage jobs and shopping at low wage-paying Wal-Mart. They love their slavery.

The things you listed may make a difference to you and me, but they will not move middle America one whit closer to caring, or impeaching.

[LuPeRcALiO]

105. Right, and nobody's buying it.

Chimp's tricks have all been exposed and except for the deluded 43% that doesn't believe that Lee surrendered, people are fed up, and that includes his military and corporate backers.

[UnityDem]

85. Abandon all hope, ye who

post here.......or, maybe fight back in a different way?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/06/15_fighting.html

[deacon]

86. Well, sounds like you have given up- that's your choice--but

kindly step aside and let those that haven't carry on.

[Melodybe]

87. He is, Zomby is being the buddha, he is being the hermit

I suspect he's read the Tao more than once. And while I like the Lao Tzu way more than Confucisous, I've found that I am not the hermit, I am the public servant. Maybe someday I'll be the hermit, but I'm too young for it now.

I'm full of rightous anger, and will fight tooth and nail against these Nazis until my dying day.

Glad to see you'll be fighting with me, even if Zomby is not.

But he's still serving am important role, whether he is right or wrong, its still good good to learn not to expect anything. None of us know what the future holds, but we all have to be sane enough to deal with it, we have to learn from it so that we are better equipped to fight it.

Zomby is excepting not expecting, and that cool too.

But Zomby, you'll still go to the big protests right, you don't have to organize or anything, just be a body in crowd. We want ya there brother.

[deacon]

88. Giving up is not an option no matter how many setbacks and

to be honest i think this thread should fall to the wayside.

[Melodybe]

91. i agree, we shouldn't linger on this post, that's for sure.

But there is a lesson in it, not really one I like but a lesson none the less.

Fight the good fight, we have to.

[Zomby Woof]

99. But by posting in it

Its continuance is assured for at least a few more hours.

Who said anything about "giving up"? :shrug: There is nothing to give up. I am just watching a crazy game.

Melodybe actually hit the point pretty damn good.

[bklyncowgirl]

92. DSM part of the drip drip drip.

The Downing Street Memos will probably not have an immediate, explosive impact.

What it will do is add more fuel to a fire that is slowly simmering. Americans are angry. Right now their anger is undirected but as evidence mounts up and they begin to slowly realize that it was their leaders who lied to them and led them into a disasterous and unnecessary war, attitudes will change. It will be a slow process and of course many people will continue to support the administration.

If enough minds can be opened to provide a fraud proof majority for the 2006 and 2008 elections, America has a chance.

[Zomby Woof]

102. Like salin...

You are holding out for small, incremental positive change rather than the big bang.

I never discounted that option.

My take in this entire thread is that people of an idealistic bent seem to have a serial obsession with the Holy Grail or The Key, which will unravel the whole deal. Impeachment talk and so forth. Latch onto a scandal and say "THIS IS IT!".

Holding out for gaining some seats (or even a majority in Congress) is the kind of realism I respect and welcome.

I am less taken with the idea that Americans will wake up. One thing Americans in general hate, now more than ever: Being told we failed and facing the pain. They embraced Reagan eagerly because he told them warm fuzzy things in the aftermath of Watergate and Vietnam.

Who is to say a smoother talking Right-Winger won't come along to soothe them when the pain or Iraq becomes more apparent? Or the economy? Americans have no memory, and they LOVE television, which numbs and seduces them.

[The2ndWheel]

93. ZombyWoof, I support you

We share the same brain. I can't argue with anything you've said. If it is a problem being pessimistic, then that would be my #1. But as you've stated, just look at history. All the letters, marches, protests, etc, over time have led us to...Iraq in 2005. This won't be the last war either. There will always be another just waiting for new blood do drink. Then we'll protest that war, it'll end eventually, then another war will start.

I've never been a big fan of hope. It's not as if these guys are going to ever face a day in jail. If they let someone else have power after 2008, they'll just go back to making millions.

[QuettaKid]

94. Impeachment?....not with this congress, but

what about the one we elect next year? 2006 is not that far away ya know?

[The2ndWheel]

97. We'll see what happens

But those seats don't change much. There's a reason for that, not to mention the machines.

We just have to wait to see how it plays out in 2006. It's more than a year away, and even though some people are pissed, most people can't hold that long of a grudge, even if they care about what goes on around the world.

We've had hearings on 9/11 where Richard Clarke opened with, "Your government failed you", and they're still in office. We've had hearings on Abu Graib where Rumsfeld said he would resign if the President asked him to. Now, anyone paying attention knows that is full of bullshit on many levels, but Rumsfeld is still standing in his office, and not going away. We've had Iran/Contra hearings, and those guys are not only not currently in jail, they're back in power.

We've had plenty of hearings. Maybe this new DSM hearing will somehow change something. I guess that's the reason to have it.

In 2006, the other side will get the millions of dollars, and get in that ring until the final bell too. We'll see.

[Zomby Woof]

104. The best post in this thread yet

And you live up to your name. :toast:

[salin]

96. There won't be a big bang.... but there is a BIG impact

and it is this - finally denting the public psyche per the manipulation for political means of intelligence, and the lies that got us to war.

There were enough threads for some who didn't fully acknowledge it - to read now and accept it... due to the 'familiarity', sadly due to the sense of familiarity - there won't be a burning outrage... (more an "i knew that") - but there will be a lasting impression that bushco and all they do are based on lies. It will be harder and harder for bushco to keep ramming things down our throats. And due to that new lasting impression - the harder they try to through the congressional GOP - the more those congressmen and women get tied to the impression referred to above.

The lasting impact - will be a shift in the middle - and very well might (if they keep playing Rove's ballgame) - have an impact on the midterm elections.

We won't get rid of bush. I don't see that happening - but due to his teams arrogance - and pushing hard on every front - the GOP could be dealt long-lasting damage. Congressional shift ala 1974 or 1992 could be in the making.

[Zomby Woof]

101. Ah, sweet reason and realism!

One of the reasons I admire you. :-)

Yeah, this is always a game of getting whatever little piece of turf we can, and occupying it as long as possible.

I think what motivates me to post things like this is that over the years, I have seen this pattern of well-meaning and dedicated DUers "searching for the Holy Grail of bringing down Bush". They latch onto whatever scandal or evidence of wrongdoing that they can, putting all their faith into "THIS IS THE ONE!".

"THE WORM IS TURNING!"
"DRIP DRIP DRIP!"
"ANY DAY NOW"
"BUSH IS TOAST"

...and on and on... it's kind of sad and amusing... but more sad, when you ponder what is at stake.

[Mandate My Ass]

98. I always thought the news propaganda was the morphine drip

or Xanax or soma of the American public, but then I wouldn't get to be creative about its delivery method by descriptively saying, "inserted up its ass, in perpetuity" which is way kewl.

ZW, I'm chill too. I'm saving my outrage for the next pretty abductee or celebrity pervert acquittal.

[bpilgrim]

100. a lounge lizard wet blanket

a rare breed indeed :evilgrin:

peace

[Zomby Woof]

103. The brightest and most dedicated DUers hang in the Lounge

You should come join us. The coffee is the BEST.

I am not a wet blanket. Just a cold glass of reality. :D

[bpilgrim]

123. thank you

too busy to hang in the lounge though, but i appreciate the invite :hi:

anyways, i think we may have a perfect storm brewing... the honeymoon is DEFINITELY over, imho.

this reminds me a LOT like the Watergate break-in, hardly reported when it first occurred but it snowballed into something huge that in the end took down a sitting prez and it can happen again.

keep the faith ;->


peace

[Snivi Yllom]

106. DSM is much ado about nothing

There is no smoking gun here. Compared to Ohio, which went nowhere, there is nothing of substance to the DSM. I will be forgotten by the majority who acknowledge it is insignificant.

[Wheezy]

108. I hear you

I'm a newbie here when it comes to posting, but I've lurked here for a long time. And when we are slammed or reprimanded for stating opinion instead of using appropiate support-speak, we're no better than the current administration or The Handmaid's Tale or 1984.

Zomby, I don't necessarily agree with you, but you sure as hell have a right to say it without being accused of being a troll or a hollered at for being a naysayer.

It would really scare me if all DUers decided anybody who didn't stay positive all the time should be written off as a detriment to the cause. That's ridiculous. I believe change comes around most effectively when all angles are presented and not shoved under the rug.

I don't see you as telling anybody not to try. I don't see you slamming anybody for believing the DSM is going to be the one big thing. You are simply presenting your opinion. People can disagree or agree, but to get upset over it or begin namecalling is counter-effective.

Thank you for your opinion. You bring up some valid points. But your comments aren't stopping me from anything -- I control me, doesn't everyone here control themselves? I fail to see how you, stating your opinion, are threatening, trollish, naysaying or unproductive in the least.

[Zomby Woof]

117. MANY MANY Thanks!

Although you have been here a while, let me welcome you, belatedly.

Thank you for getting what I am getting at. Sometimes I do post supportive and "on-message" threads, and other times, I am the turd in the punchbowl of self-congratulations. It depends on the issue at hand.

Wish you would post more often. Your voice is appreciated for its independence of thought and clarity.

[Hapameli]

121. I just wanted to clairify that I never implied that Zombie was a troll but

that this *sort* of thread is the kind that *would-be* trolls would be able to pop in, say "ME TOO!" and run up their posts. My post count is low because I don't do the lounge or use DU to vent, I use this site to organize ACTIVISM.

And the fact that the threads that require activism get hardly any posts while posts where everyone jumps on the bitching bandwagon go on forever is rather disheartening.

I don't really care if anyone comes out to stop this war and stop this administration from killing more innocent people with me. I'll do it BY MYSELF if necessary and I won't stop until the killing stops!

[Zomby Woof]

129. One thing you can count on

The GOP always gives themselves enough rope to hang themselves with. They fall on their own excesses. DSM is just passing through the headlines. But it is more a link in the rope, not the entire noose.

[nini]

139. yes you did.. Don't back track now

reread your posts in this thread. You aimed comments/insults at him and not the subject matter more than once - including this post where you take a swipe at the lounge lizards wtih high post counts. Does this imply those people do not have an opinion in GD?

You have every right to disagree, just as some agree, and some are somewhere in between on the issue.


If you want to organize activism as you say you do and I really do commend you for it, then I suggest you use your time more constructively and not spend it hear posting your 'last word on the subject' 20 times and go to threads that will help your cause.

[Wheezy]

140. Ahh, I see.

Thanks for clarifying, Hapameli.

I understand your frustration about the bitching bandwagon. It gets very old after a while. Sometimes that's a stepping stone to activism, though. It was for me. I grew up very conservative, and switched several years ago (voted for Clinton's 2nd term) when I could see the great things he was doing for our economy. I didn't know much about politics then, and I was determined to learn. And I got angry. But I had to get mad enough that I could no longer justify sitting around and bitching. Had to let my own hypocrisy hit me in the forehead before I took that step from bitching to acting on the anger.

I admire your motivation. I just hope that everyone who isn't charging forward at your speed doesn't wind up a speedbump for you, and that you don't blow off the opinions of others in your quest. Threads like this one are terrific for our own personal 'checks and balances' systems, aren't they? And there are far more people 'with' you here than 'against'. I'm with you. I just prefer to save my righteous anger for the bushies, rather than those who are at different levels from mine in their motivation toward the same goal. And that's just my opinion. I could have it all wrong. :)

Zomby, thank you for the welcome and for your thread. *waves*

[deutsey]

109. Reminds me of the scene in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

where McMurphy strains to yank the water fountain out of the floor and throw it through the window. As everyone laughs at him when he fails, he looks at them and says, "At least I tried."

And his trying later inspired the Chief to accomplish what he couldn't.

[H2O Man]

112. Right on.

It takes no talent, no insight, and no courage to say, "No, we can't." We are only responsible for doing our part. We can't control the outcome. The worst thing that could possible happen is for people to take the bump-on-a-log attitude, and become nay-sayers.

[Zomby Woof]

134. As a huge fan of the novel and movie

I get the analogy.

I never said 'don't try', but I will say, be careful that you are the Chief and not McMurphy in this tale. Personally, I am like the Chief, because I escaped the asylum of politics.

The fountain was thrown through the window last November.

Go ahead and try. Just don't throw your backs out - the fountain is heavy!

[deutsey]

136. Yeah, I knew where you were coming from

I just wanted to point out that, like MLK, we may not get to the promised land, but we've got to do all we can to clear as much of the path as we can while we're here.

[nolabels]

110. Viva La Revolution

The weak delivery of a message is the most costly of errors for the losing the message. Do we need some kind of acknowledgment by the CONs to make us feel legit? Echoing what others have said above in some ways to say the blogosphere is growing and in few years it could eclipse the influence of the CONs The blogosphere has the capacity and the tools to render moot much of the insanity of the Corporate Mass(lying) mEdia. Rather than measuring it's success against the WHORES grading system shouldn't we just declare this a victory and another turn for OUR Revolution. Besides I like your coffee, it tastes better than that store brand.

http://battellemedia.com/archives/cat_mediatech_business_models.php
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://battellemedia.com/archives/cat_mediatech_business_models.php&h=400&w=533&sz=35&tbnid=hhrIaDw9YC8J:&tbnh=96&tbnw=129&hl=en&start=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drevolution%26start%3D120%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DN
http://www.boingboing.net/

(this from way back)
October 14, 2004
Oct 2004 State of the blogosphere: Big Media vs. Blogs

This is part 3 of a series on the growth of the Blogosphere, its impact on individuals, corporations, media, politics, and technology, Part 1 covered the overall growth of the blogosphere, and part 2 covered the volume of postings. Today I'll build further on the growing influence and authority of bloggers, and compare some of the online influence to mainstream media sites. Click on the image below to see the full-size chart (this data is about a month old, so there's a bit of change in the relative rankings from this data set and the current Top 100, for example)

The folks at Google (and IBM, and others) made a fundamental breakthrough in exploiting the concept of “Page Rank” - essentially, that hyperlinks are votes of attention, and that the number of web pages linking to a page is reflective of the authoritativeness of that page, and that use of collective human intelligence towards relevance revolutionized the search industry.

At Technorati, we've taken the same fundamental realization and extended it to people and organizations. The number of people linking to you is a very powerful measurement of your influence or authority with those people - because if nothing else, those people are spending some attention on you. Documents are the exhaust of our attention streams - they are a tangible reflection on what we are spending our time and attention on. Negative attention “I hate such-and-such” runs counter to this theory, but empirical evidence shows that people overwhelmingly link to items and objects that they like or endorse, far more frequently than to things they disapprove of (e.g. Terveen and Hill, 1998).


The chart above shows a graph of the most influential or authoritative blogs as compared with the most authoritative “big media” sites. Certainly, top-quality journalism, interesting articles, and consistency of quality show why the top big media sites are on top. But it also shows that a large number of people are getting news, information, and opinion from outside of the mainstream media, and that these sources are rivaling or exceeding the attention paid to smaller “professional” sites.
(snip)
http://www.sifry.com/alerts/archives/000389.html

[iconoclastNYC]

111. Wow you are right.

We should all go home. We shoudln't sign petitions or go to demonstrations. We should just fold up our tents and go home.

We don't need your apology when you are wrong. Just keep your pessimism to yourself. It is destructive.

[Hapameli]

114. I just heard about our L.A. rallies on the Stephanie Miller Show!!

Just as I turned it on, too. Geez, all it takes is for ONE person to think they can make a difference and it becomes contagious. Bad attitudes can be contagious too.

Please try to get to a rally today, folks. We have made a difference and we will keep making a difference!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3860885&mesg_id=3860885

[Zomby Woof]

135. One person CAN make a difference

But not on this issue.

I prefer making a difference on a smaller scale. The ripple effect is still valid, however. Trying to start from the top down will result in frustration and repeated failure. Better to shun protesting altogether. It is more of a feel-good exercise than anything.

[Hapameli]

141. Its not a protest, its a rally. It does make a difference on the micro

level because it shows that we can organize on a mass level with very short notice. We can use it as leverage to force our agenda. Look at what's going on in the House today and Bush not getting the Patriot Act, Bolton, or anything else through lately.

I'll tell you, I met a friend of my brother's before the election who was a total Bush-lover, who blamed Clinton for everything. One night sometime after the elections I gave her the whole speech about how she's voting against her interests and how her vote could hurt her kids' future. My brother joked that night that she looked like somebody had killed her puppy, because I had gotten through to her.

I saw her again last weekend and she had completely changed. She thinks the war was a mistake and that Bush should be impeached. She seemed sad to have supported him and why did she change her mind? In her words:

"I finally saw the reality of the situation"

We need to help shape reality, to fight the Neocons fire with fire. It works on all levels and we shouldn't give up on any level. And if it makes you feel better, I was not one of those people marching before the war so I still have some fight left in me. I can say "I told you so" a million times -- I'm sure very few people thought Bush would be so damaged so shortly after the election, but its happened.

Keep fighting the fight, in any way you can, but don't give up or they win.

[Zomby Woof]

147. No, it doesn't

I was at WTO in Seattle, and trade and labor issues are worse than ever.

I marched against Iraq the 3 times I had a chance, before and during...

I campaigned for the BEST antiwar candidate, Dennis Kucinich.

It made me feel good hanging out with like-minded people, much like posting on DU does.

But it didn't change a damn thing. The era of protest in America (I will say it hasn't died globally) died sometime after Watergate. No chance for revival.

[DS1]

115. Zomby says bend over and take it. So you have your orders, get to it.

:eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

120. I am not ordering anyone around

And you know it. It seems I am being excoriated for having MY opinion differ from groupthink, while I am telling people who differ to "knock themselves out", which is the same as "go for it!".

As usual, people are not reading the posts. I said I would be the FIRST to admit I am wrong.

Whereas all of the people proven wrong in their assessments these past few years have yet to do the same. Makes me a better person I guess. :-)

[DS1]

122. As a fellow anti-groupthinker - we should form a DU Group - I commend

your work. Still, I don't think coming in and pissing all over everything does much good. If we were to all give up talking about it with friends and neighbors and LTTEs, then DSM dying will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

:toast:

[Zomby Woof]

132. I had NO IDEA this would be that big of a thread

99% of my crap sinks like a stone in GD, even when I have more "upbeat" material. I usually expect my pissing to be less consequential.

Just be clear I don't advocate inaction or apathy. I am just laying out what I think will go down. But I can only speak for myself, as I always do. I hope others follow their own path.

Haha.. the Anti-Groupthink Forum in Groups. Hmmmm....

[Telly Savalas]

116. Having realistic expectations prevents frustration and burnout.

Good post, and I too hope you're wrong.

[tgnyc]

118. Basically Zombie is right, but

the fight needs to be fought anyway to leave the clear message to future presidents that trying to pull a stunt like this will not be a free ride when the Congress isn't run by your party. That we will always be monitoring, and that the moment your shields are down, we will open fire and take you out.

[Pobeka]

119. ZW -- You're right and wrong.

I see no way the congress would impeach anyone in this administration, they put party power too far above serving country's best interest.

On that point, you're right.

But you are wrong, in that DSM if used properly in our everyday conversations with people we turn the heads of the masses, one thought at a time, one person at a time beginning to see the truth. The media is not going to save our country. One only needs to review the 2004 election coverage to understand that, or see the focus on the Michael Jackson trial, or (you name the distraction) story.

The DSM gives clear evidence that this administration was as Will Pitt said, professing the desire for peaceful solutions in public while behind doors they were sharpening their knives for the attack.

This is the point we can make with each person we encounter in our daily affairs, that the GOP is just a bunch of liars, more than willing to weaken our military and send people to their deaths rather than seeking a better solution.

And these are the kinds of drips that add up. Micro-sized drips, not coming from the media, but one person to another. And with enough of us spreading the micro-drops around, that can eventually turn the tide, regardless of the media. With any luck, the masses may start to see the media's complicity in all of this mess. But that may be just wishful thinking on my part ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

Back in August 2002

I already considered the war inevitable, because I know how these bastards operate. I got an article published on a DUer's private website, but it is bookmarked at home, so I will try to post it later.

Anyway, I really do hope for the best, but I prepare for the worst.

Right now, we're swimming in the worst. Don't let us drown.

[Catherine Vincent]

124. I hear ya.

But I don't think anyone is expecting something big to happen because of the DSM. It would be great if Bush/Cheney are forced to resign but we all know that won't happen.

I am satisfied with the fact that all the illegalities and corruption that has taken place since Bush took office, is being documented. I do want Bush/Cheney and the others to pay for their role in the Iraq war though.

[Zomby Woof]

128. Some people are pinning EVERYTHING on it

Some, not all, or even most. But enough to get my attention.

I didn't really expect this reaction. I figured the people who disagree would just hide the thread. :-)

[goclark]

125. I disagree

I will never give up.
I may be disappointed but will not quit trying to make this regime end.

As I see it the tide is turning this time....

The war is a mess - more republicans are jumping ship
Republicans are running for cover ie. Terry Schivo

Dean has a spine and others are following him.
The list goes on.

Stay with your gloom and save your thread.
It will not change me from fighting with every breath left in me to make this world a better place.

[barb162]

126. I agree with you.

[kittenpants]

127. what a pointless downer post. If we do nothing, then nothing will happen.

If we work our asses off, *maybe* something will. If you care about the world, it's worth a shot.

[Zomby Woof]

131. I don't care about the world

It can go to hell. People are not worth saving. I am an unrepentant misanthrope.

Funny how a "worthless" post merits so much comment. :D

[kittenpants]

133. sorry, no personal offense meant.

I just need to keep myself positive to stay motivated. Your points you made in your post ARE a nagging fear in the back of my mind, but I try to think to myself that all of these things (Plame, etc) that added up to nothing then could have a cumulative effect if we can get the DSM on the radar.
I know you care or you wouldn't be here, I just think there is more to be gained by keeping our hopes up than by lowering our expectations.

take care ZW!

[barbaraann]

137. What DO you care about?

n/t

[Zomby Woof]

138. More than most ever dreamt of in their philosophy

:-)

[barbaraann]

150. Could you be more specific?

:-)

[Zomby Woof]

177. No

Because it would be in vain. Lesson I learned on here long ago.

[lala_rawraw]

142. Your welcome... n/t

[nini]

148. ?

Now there's a post we can sink our teeth into.

btw: It's YOU'RE

[NewJeffCT]

143. I agree with you

I started on DU in October of 2003 and was quickly overwhelmed with the daily, "This means the end of Bushco" threads... I'm naturally very pessimistic, but even I got caught up in all the hysteria. I remember even posting a few weeks before the election that suddenly, I was cautiously optimistic. And, of course, the optimism that I hadn't had since high school (I'm 38 now) was shattered on Election Day.

I will keep working in my own fashion - donating money here & there, writing LTTEs, etc - however, I will believe the end to Bush is coming only when all the Is are dotted, the Ts are crossed and I've held my breath and counted to 20... and, even then, I'll have to pinch myself a few times to make sure I'm not dreaming.

[proud patriot]

144. Well gosh darn it

here I was thinkng that we'll get 'em this time .

forever an optimist am I :shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

145. Wouldn't want you any other way!

The importance of choosing one's path must be honored.

[alfredo]

146. Shut down bush as a fund raiser for 2006 and 2008

If he is exposed as a criminal and a fraud, then God's Official Party will lose a very good fund raiser for 2006 and 2008.

[LuPeRcALiO]

149. This will help you snap out of it.

Nobody likes to be fooled again but this time it's for real:

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank06152005.html

:evilgrin:

[MisterP]

152. however, whoever said yesterday that there'd be a big capture

today was spot on: "Al Qaeda leader captured in Mosul."

[nolabels]

153. Live Webcast John Conyer's Downing Street Memo

Live Webcast John Conyer's Downing Street Memo
3 links here

http://www.kpfk.org/

[Douglas Carpenter]

154. Even if ......

Even if DSM does not directly or indirectly drive Bush and Cheney from power--And I agree that scenario looks unlikely--We can really strike at and weaken Bush and the extreme right.

Considering numerous other factors that appear to be weakening them already--I think that is not only a possible scenario--but I think a probable scenario.

Given just how extreme their agenda is, anything we can do to thwart them is well worth the fight. Anything we can do to make the media pay just a bit more attention to real news is worth the effort.

I am too old to be a Pollyanna about these things...But I do think we have a real possibility to hinder to fair degree these dark forces and perhaps-just perhaps even start to make some real progress.

If that is all we achieve. Then all this effort is worth it...

___________________________________


A True Voice of Opposition
--A Voice for Working People
--Not the Elite--
http://www.bernie.org

Who is Congressman Bernie Sanders?

Read this article and watch the 3 short video clips:

http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/04/who-is-bernie-sanders.html

[johnaries]

155. PBBBBLLLLLZZZZTTTT!

:P

[Zomby Woof]

159. lol

That could be the one disagreement I have a soft spot for. :D

[Stirk]

156. All the things you mentioned took their toll.

Bush's numbers didn't get this low by magic, you know. I would agree with you that anyone who is expecting the DSM to get Bush impeached is being a hopeless optimist, but this issue will take it's toll.

[DS1]

157. heh, hey Zomby, Plame just got brought up by Wilson himself

[Zomby Woof]

158. But only interested people are watching

In a way, it's a built-in, knowledgable audience. Plame's name won't register with the masses. They can name the runaway bride, to be sure, but Valerie who? The rest of America won't care. Friday is a news dump day. This is will be ignored, no matter how constructive the hearings may be.

[DS1]

161. Hate to bring your day down even further..

It's still Thursday :D

[Zomby Woof]

176. HA!

My brain crossed the International Date Line. :crazy:

Oh well, I stand behind my American attention span comments!

And I never am afraid to admit when I am wrong, at least. :D

[SmokingJacket]

160. Yes, the pattern has been repeated too many times.

If Abu Ghraib didn't do anything, nothing will, IMHO.

I'll sign the petitions, I'll make the calls (calling Conyers today to thank him) but I suspect the game is probably rigged.

They will self-destruct, but it'll be a big freaking surprise.

[Generator]

162. sometimes it's not just winning

A concept the other side has no understanding of.

Sometimes just telling the truth is enough of a victory.

Because of people like Conyers, I can maintain my hope in America, as a shred hanging on.


I want to quit America all the time but I haven't yet. I just saw a video of Dave Matthews Band, "American baby"-all those beautfiul faces, all the races, the American dream. Failed,impossible and dying but still alive.

Where there's hope, there's life. Who are WE to quit when so many have suffered so much? When you look at history and all the suffering, to quit just because it's easier than hoping and being crushed in that hope feels fundamentally wrong.

[Independent_Liberal]

164. We can't give up and say there's nothing we can do about it...

If we do that, we let the enemy win. We have to keep fighting this. Please keep fighting people. It's going to be an uphill battle. We all know that, but it will be worth all the hard work in the end.

[Independent_Liberal]

165. And just remember...

Watergate didn't happen over night.

[Zomby Woof]

167. And if it happened today

It wouldn't have happened at all, if you get my meaning.

Tom Tomorrow nailed that with a great cartoon panel recently.

Bad analogy - these are different times. Bush has committed crimes WORSE than Watergate, and yet... the worst consequence is 42% approval?

I am right about this, wait and see.

[Zomby Woof]

166. Sure we can

Or at least, I can.

They have won. It's a rigged casino.

[Independent_Liberal]

169. If you want to give up and be a defeatist, fine.

As for me, I'm going to keep fighting and won't let anyone stop me.

[Hapameli]

168. Its JUNE and we haven't gone to war with IRAN. That's the big victory! nt

[goodhue]

170. keep hope alive!

eom

[ibegurpard]

171. Self-indulgent cynicism

And what's truly sad is that your very transparent hopes that something actually DOES come of this is so very obvious by your continuing attention to the topic.

You're probably right about this...I can't count how many times I've had MY hopes up about something only to have them smashed...but pouring cold water on OTHER people's hopes isn't doing them any favors. If you truly don't care then why are you here?

[H2O Man]

172. The actions DUers take

are the life-breath of democracy. It is more important at this time in our country's history that citizens at the grass roots are active in the struggle for democracy, than it is that crusty old republicans in Washington DC serve as our guiding lights.

[Zomby Woof]

175. Democracy?

That died years ago. Around the time the NSA was created in 1947. Democracy is illusory, and in this case, irretrievably lost.

[Zomby Woof]

174. Yep

I admit it, it is self-indulgent cynicism. :-) As far as I know, that is allowed, as much as self-indulgent wishful thinking.

I am here because I love DU.

My "continuing attention" is based on trying to address posts and clear up vast misconceptions about my intent. Otherwise, I expected this to sink like my slain civil rights workers threads.

Which to me is a far more pressing issue. Because, dammit, I care.