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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:24 AM
Original message
What would our founding fathers say?
If they could speak from the grave about what is happening in this country right now what do you think they would tell us?

Weird question, I know, but it's late and I'm on my third coke. :)
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. stupid fucks!
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Adams would be disgusted, Jefferson's blood would boil, and
.
Adams would be disgusted, Jefferson's blood would boil, and Hamilton would probably challenge Burr yet again.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Hamilton was a little shithead
He'd try to cheat and lose again, too. That was one of those duels that just couldn't turn out bad for the country, wasn't it? Though Aaran Burr was a cool old bastard.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. It was not my intention to demean Hamilton . . . au contraire!
Edited on Thu Jun-16-05 01:50 AM by TaleWgnDg
.
It was not my intention to demean Hamilton . . . au contraire!

Hamilton was a knowledgeable statesman who placed our country's finances in excellent beginnings -- from federal banking to the beginnings of Wall Street! Hamilton, as George Washington's choice as our first Secretary of the Treasury, did a great job. Although many at the time (mainly in the Southern states) abhorred any idea of central banking, historically those nay-sayers have been proven erroneous.

History, on the other hand, has not been as kind to Aaron Burr, for it was he that's been depicted as the villain in his dealings with Hamilton and with others.

Yes, our country suffered greatly upon the early death of Hamilton in his "gentlemanly" duel with Aaron Burr.

_____________________________________________
edited to include this link: http://www.treas.gov/education/history/secretaries/ahamilton.shtml

.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Naw, I still think he was a little shithead
Burr saved us from a tiny imperialist tyrant who may have one day been elected president and led this nation across an early Rubicon.

Burr was a funny guy. Not a good guy, just a funny guy. But Hamilton tried to murder him, and he got killed instead. Hamilton's guns were rigged to give him a hair trigger, but Hamilton's gun went off too early because of the trigger. He missed Burr, according to trajectories drawn from where the bullet struck, by inches--a far cry from the claim by Hamilton's friends that he had deliberately fired into the air. Hamilton tried to murder Burr, and died instead.

Yeah, his economics was advanced, even liberal, for his time, and we owe him a lot for that. The duel worked out nicely, letting Hamilton achieve his genius and then stopping him before he went too far.

My opinion. I always picture Lee Atwater when I think of Hamilton.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Your revisionism is noted. Sad that such persists to today. n/t
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sad that what persists?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. hmm I suspect something like this....
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:
New Hampshire

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts

John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island

Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
Connecticut

Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott
New York

William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
New Jersey

Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania

Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
Delaware

Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean
Maryland

Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia

George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton
North Carolina

William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn
South Carolina

Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton
Georgia

Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

For additional information about the Declaration of Independence, see these sites:

* National Archives and Records Administration: Declaration of Independence
* Library of Congress: About the Declaration of Independence
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I don't think so.
I think Jefferson would just pull out a musket and shoot some people this time. There's a time for words, and there's a time for action.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. yes he is also the man who wrote
that the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots from time to time...

by the way, keep your powder dry, we are getting close to that point of decision
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. kick
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. you could prolly keep the east coast in electricity if you could harness
the energy from all that spinnin goin on in graves. x(
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Indeed. LOL ! n/t
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. They wouldn't say anything...
Their voices would be all used up from screaming at us for the last eighty years. They wouldn't have liked the twentieth century, let alone the twenty-first.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. Probably
Edited on Thu Jun-16-05 01:30 AM by The Traveler
They would be filling their inkwells, sharpening their swords, and cleaning their muskets.

We are the spiritual descendants of rebels, intellectuals, visionaries. Often painfully aware of their own limitations, they hoped they gave us the chance to do better.

And that, they did. What now are we as a nation doing with that opportunity?

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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Not learning from history . . . repeating it instead.
.
Not learning from history . . . repeating it instead. In the worst possible ways: (1) co-mingling Church and State; (2) allowing the military too much power; and (3) trammeling upon the Bill of Rights.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Forgetting who we are, and what we are supposed to be about.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Exactly, intentionally or not! n/t
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. Madison, Jefferson and Washington...
... would, in particular, be horrified at the size and state of influence of the standing army today, and of the drift to imperial ambitions of the country in the last one hundred years or so.

Each of those people, and more, would be horrified at the level of religious speech in the White House and Congress and at the influence of the religious right in governmental affairs.

They would be dismayed at the degree to which corporations have usurped the power of the people in government and the degree to which corporations have controlled everyday society.

They all would be non-plussed by the tendency of recent presidents to engage in foreign wars with little legitimacy, and would be near apoplexy at the desires of Congress to abrogate their own powers to wage war in favor of the Executive.

From their letters and memoirs, that's what they would think about things today.
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elperromagico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
13. "We didn't want it to be a church-run nation, you jackasses."
That's what I suspect you might hear.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. "TURN OFF THY TELEVISIONS!!!"
"Why is the Town Square called 'Food Court'?"

"Could you explain oral sex again?"

"Pre-emptive WHAT!?!"

"The people get the government they deserve."

"If you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. Washington was a beautiful man
I'd love to see him horsewhip * for screwing up his country and his first name. After Valley Forge, you think Washington would forgive W for going AWOL, for deserting? Not likely. W would be lucky to escape with a whuppin'.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
20. They wouldn't say much -
They would just start a Revolution.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yep... and I fear we are going to need to do that ourselves
but don't fear, (no pun) the right has divided this contry to the point I smell a civil war
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
22. Are we in the same fucking country a couple of centuries back?
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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. Where are the slaves?
And the Indians have casinos?
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. LOL . . . (not to be taken seriously, of course) . . . n/t
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-05 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
27. washington would say: "my men froze at valley forge for this?"
the worst part about the busheviks is that they have no honor. they do unhonorable things and have no sense of decency.
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