General Clark's Troops

[OrdinaryTa]

It troubles me that Wes Clark doesn't seem to have a natural constituency. The fact that he's a four-star general who's not a Brobdingnagian is attention-getting, but who's going to carry Clark's message - whatever it is - into their workplaces and social gatherings?

A candidate needs a core of true believers, a group of people whose personal destiny is fulfilled if their candidate becomes President. Clark seems defined negatively, i.e., who he's not. But if General Clark doesn't have any more than what he's shown so far, he'll be trounced.

Clark lacks both a positive identity and a natural constituency. Somebody please tell me what he's about besides being electable, because that in itself won't get him elected. He needs foot soldiers. My question is: Who are they?

[iambe]

1. I suggest you visit some of this supporters' sites

And see for yourself.
http://www.clark04.com/blogs.php

[Catch22Dem]

2. Beat me to it

I was going to say the same thing.

[iambe]

4. Well, I'm glad it made sense to somebody

Besides me! :)

[WillyBrandt]

3. People who admire his intellect, his freshness and his character

... Like me. And some other friends. I've read his speeches and works, and, well, I'd like to have a man who took some bullets for his country AND is progressive AND is an intellectual a la Clinton or Kennedy in the White House.

And people who are afraid of terrorism and radical upheavals in the world, and want America to engage with those problems without the fostering of fear at home. A man who weds realism and idealism (unlike Bush, who weds cynicism with stupidity)

Sorry if I'm speaking in abstractions, but those of us who are his base exist. He didn't invent us. We aren't DLC stooges.

[OrdinaryTa]

36. Wounded Veteran

I'd like to have a man who took some bullets for his country

Being wounded in Vietnam doesn't give Clark any advantage with the voters. Most Americans have no knowledge at all of a war that ended 30 years ago.

Sympathy for Vietnam veterans is a recent development. Vietnam, which had nothing to do with the defense of this country, happened on the other side of the world. If you weren't interested in politics you could ignore it totally.

However, you've at least stated something positive about Clark; that he's a progressive and an intellectual. He has to build on that to make an impression.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. I'm Sorry, But You're Just Plain Mistaken

Being wounded in Vietnam doesn't give Clark any advantage with the voters.

How wrong you are. I know tons of people who have so much respect for Clark based on his Vietnam service, and the wounds he took in that service.

I bet if you took a poll, a substantial percentage of Americans would think more favorably of Clark because of this fact.

DTH

[OrdinaryTa]

46. Favorable Thinking Isn't Enough

a substantial percentage of Americans would think more favorably of Clark

We're headed into an election, not a poll of the most admired Americans. We're not looking to look good, we're looking to win.

A nominee has to have an identity that people can relate to. Clark may be brilliant, but Adlai Stevenson was brilliant, too. He also needs a natural constitency, not a synthetic one based on the principle of least unacceptability.

As things now stand, I don't see Clark. Who is he? What does he want? He has correct answers for questions that came up six months ago, but that isn't what a President does.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. The Issue Is Him Being Wounded in Vietnam

There is ZERO downside to that aspect of his background.

Of course there are also many more good things in his background, too, and many of his policies are excellent as well, but the getting wounded thing is certainly a plus.

DTH

[sasquatch]

5. He's a DLCer so his "Foot Soldiers" are corporate donations

Clark is a "Fuck You Howard Dean!!" canidate because Clark hasn't been caught in Senate wearing his pink tutu he has appeal. This is the DLC's last desperate attempts to put in an electable canidate in the primary's because Kerry, LIEberman, Edwards and Gephart have all been caught being in GWB's pocket to many times. So now they need Clark's ass to save their sorry asses.

[iambe]

7. I am sorry you are so angry.

I like both Clark and Dean myself.

[sasquatch]

12. I'm glad that you like Howard Dean

Dennis Kucinich is my #1, but Dean is my #2. If you know what is good for you, you'll avoid Clark like the plague. In a Salon interview he said Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz are his friend's, so all you like thier is Bush lite.

[iambe]

13. Oh, I know what's good for me.

I don't do guilt by association. I'm keeping an open mind for Clark.

[sasquatch]

16. So Prescott Bush is OK then?

So what Prescott Bush did by financing and profiting off the Nazi's would be fine for you? This isn't guilt by association, this goes WAAAYY beyond that. This is in League with them. Please reconsider:)

[iambe]

18. You must think

I am a complete sucker. :)

[sasquatch]

24. No I don't

You're just being lied to about Clark believe me you don't sound like a bad person, why do you support one?

[Terwilliger]

17. open mind?

I think you've closed it pretty tightly around Clark

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

22. aren't you sweet :-)

you going to address my point?

[sasquatch]

25. You got that right

These people can be just zombies sometimes.

[RummyTheDummy]

10. Does Dean have any corporate donors?

Because if he has even just one, your comment is total horse shit.

[sasquatch]

15. I'm sure he does

If he's in cahoots with the DLC and complementing the Bush Crime Family in Salon I'm pretty sure he does.

[Bombtrack]

19. Dean is a DLC democrat. so your argument is nixed

.

[sasquatch]

26. No he isn't

He is a former DLCer he severed ties from them because they're destroying the party.

[Zhade]

33. Um...you contradicted yourself.

Keep in mind, I'm not sure about Clark either way.

But you said above (#5) that Clark is DLC, now you say he's former DLC. Which is it? Seriously. Just want clarification here.

[sasquatch]

39. This is what you asked

You asked that Dean is DLC and I said he is former DLC. You didn't ask about Clark.

[Zhade]

48. Ah, I see the Dean part now. But it wasn't ME who asked that.

So, we both misread.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Again Wrong

Clark has tons of grassroots supporters, more than any other candidate save Dean.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to believe Clark has no grassroots support, by all means, feel free to continue the self-deception.

DTH

[sasquatch]

52. He is a DLC whore and I'm sorry you can't see that

Look I'm glad you had all your other Clark sheeple come into DU and wonder around lost in their own reterect. This guy is freinds with Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld. He is a Republican ass kissing DLC limpwrist that will not fight for democratic values and will keep our men and women in Iraq to be slaughtered.

[carpetbagger]

6. Observations from the Draft Clark movement

We tended to have disproportionate numbers of volunteers from a few distinct communities. At least in Texas, Clark's "natural constituency" has a lot of veterans and 55+ voters.

I can't not mention electability, but it's more of a circling wagons type of thing. Clark's got a huge amount of support here in Texas. It has a whole lot to do with a sense that Clark would be a national candidate who would help infuse some life into the image of the state party with the electorate. I doubt he'll beat Bush in Texas, but he will lend credibility to liberal ideas here that hasn't been seen in twenty years.

[OrdinaryTa]

27. Houston, We Have a Problem

Clark's got a huge amount of support here in Texas. .... I doubt he'll beat Bush in Texas

By your own statements, even in places where Clark has a lot of support, it isn't enough to win.

Where is the sweet spot of Clark's support? It's in exactly the same place as Bush's support, meaning that it's not enough to get him elected. He has to have both a positive identity and a natural constituency, and at the moment he doesn't have either.

He has about a month to develop an electable identity. After that his standing slips to where Kerry is now, i.e., ought to drop out for the good of the party. Clark's not there yet, but the clock is ticking. Clark hasn't made an impression yet but it's still early.

[carpetbagger]

58. But Clark has a great shot at AR, WV, MO, LA, AZ, FL.

My specific comments would indicate that he has specific strengths which would help him in WV, FL, and AZ, as well as in his home state and a few of the moderate southern/midwestern states. The demographics I mentioned should help him in PA as well. We should be able to hold on to most of the northern states without a specific pitch to them.

Some of Clark's strength in Texas might have to do with the fact that we've been knocked around so mightily in the last decade that we're excited to see the tide turning. The tide will turn not because we get angry. The tide will turn when we start running people who won't lose the red state personality contest. I'm sick and tired of seeing only center-right democrats have any chance at winning elections here outside of ethnic strongholds. It's good to see a liberal with a chance of winning some of these places. No, he won't win Texas, but I'll be happy if he takes a few of the states I mentioned above.

[RandomUser]

60. Right on.

It's not the blue states we need to worry about. It's the red ones.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Why Should Kerry Drop Out

He's the only Dem besides Clark who beats * in a head to head poll...

Your logic is flawed.....

[knight_of_the_star]

8. Some people who really don't like Bush

The thing is he doesn't represent ONE constituency, he brings together a broad range of groups.

[Dookus]

9. He's the first...

and only Dem to beat Bush in the polls. He's leading the pack in the Dem race.

I think there's SOME constituency there... lemme look around and see if I can find it. Oh yeah! There it is! ALL AROUND US!

[Rowdyboy]

11. I like Clark and Dean too...

Sorry so many Dean supporters are trying to drive us away. We're natural allies and politics is about forming alliances to win.

[Paragon]

14. Troops? Foot Soldiers?

Be smarter than a freeper, please. Try.

[OrdinaryTa]

21. It's a Play on Words

General Clark avoided using ground troops in Kosovo, thereby saving American lives. He is therefore experienced in battle without foot soldiers.

Does this work metaphorically as well? Can a candidate win without people to take up his cause in the "battleground" of their common associations, their workplaces and social gatherings? I don't think it's been tried.

[Paragon]

23. Then let's try

I am no one's "soldier" or "troop". Stupid for us to be anti-war but use war metaphors.

[Terwilliger]

29. who?

who's anti-war?

[msanger]

30. Volunteers for America!

dean or clark or gephardt. we'll all end up volunteering for them because we can't afford another four years of bush.

[FlemingsGhost]

34. Agreed. Haven't we had enough of the military lexicon?

I know I have.

[Dr Fate]

28. There may be some legitimate criticisms of Clark, but not this one...

...he seems to have support from a wide range of people..the "man on the street" is certainly talking about him, as are those who "vote for the man"...

[sasquatch]

31. I don't like the fact that he's panhandling to Repug's

All republicans are Fascist I don't care whom they are. As long as they support this thug they are war criminals and fascist. I'm against the death penalty with the exception of mass killers and war criminals, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few hanging like wind chimes for war crimes convictions. If he wants to win he has to get non-voters interested into voting and not kissing repug ass. Pure and simple.

[dfong63]

32. why shouldn't Clark panhandle from repubs - he helped fundraise for them

... as recently as 2001.

[Zhade]

35. Can I get a source? This is NOT an attack, just a request.

I don't want to put blinders on about ANY candidate, no matter who or how popular. Caution does have its rewards.

[juajen]

37. Aw, come on

What I read was that he "spoke at a fundraiser". He did not fundraise.

[Tom Kitten]

38. Was it a Brobdingnagian fund raiser?

Remember, Clark is not a Brobdingnagian.

[OrdinaryTa]

43. Sixty Feet High

Lately the Brobdingnagian Society has been admitting new members at only 58 feet.

[sasquatch]

40. What in the hell is he doing at a Repug fund raiser

for christ sake's will you people stop supporting this man.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. No

Clark is the best chance we have at ousting Shrub. All of the other candidates would certainly have a chance as well, but not as good a chance as Clark. His foreign policy creds as well as his status as a Southerner and an outsider all work in his favor.

DTH

[OrdinaryTa]

45. Our Best Shot

Clark is the best chance we have at ousting Shrub

The question is whether Clark has enough going for him with the voters to get elected, not whether he's the best chance at ousting Shrub. If the best we've got is somebody who's not going to win, we need to re-strategize.

That was the point of my original question. Who is going to storm the ramparts for Clark? We don't even know who he is. Clark needs a positive identity and a natural constituency; at the moment, he doesn't have either.

"Positive identity" means that the voters know who he is. Gore never projected anything here, and his inept campaign manager let the Republicans get away with defining Gore their way. If Clark has the same problem, he won't win either. Gore's resume was even more impressive than Clark's.

A "natural constituency" is a group of people who build their lives around getting their candidate elected. Clark's people seem remarkably tepid. If he can't generate in-your-face enthusiasm, Clark won't win the election.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. Boy, Is That an Ignorant Comment

Clark's people seem remarkably tepid. If he can't generate in-your-face enthusiasm, Clark won't win the election.

You obviously haven't been paying attention, either here on DU or in the real world. Clark has the second-largest grassroots organization among all Democrats, and even though the Meetup numbers are still 4x in favor of Dean, the number of people actually attending Meetups in LA were very comparable between Dean and Clark.

Again, you should feel free to believe Clark has no grassroots support if that makes you feel better in whatever world you're living in. The rest of us Clark fans will continue onward, volunteering for Clark.

DTH

[OrdinaryTa]

50. Grass Roots Support

Grass roots support isn't the same as in-your-face enthusiasm. Bill Bradley had grass roots support, but it was also very tepid. Tepid support doesn't win elections!

It shouldn't be difficult to list Clark's positions on various issues, but it is. The guy doesn't project the kind of decisiveness that people look for. I think Eloriel is right that Clark is emerging as the fear candidate .... the one that will cost us the least humiliation if he doesn't win. To me, that's not a good enough reason to support his candidacy. Let's offer the voters a clear alternative to Bush.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. How Many Clark Meetings Have YOU Been To?

What's that? None? I thought so.

Clark's supporters have a TON of enthusiasm. There were people moved to tears at the last meeting, when Clark's daughter-in-law spoke. Every meeting I've been to has been filled with highly motivated people.

DTH

[sasquatch]

54. How dare you call him ignorant

Clark has a astroturf campiagn going on and he let's you guys on so you think your important.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. How Dare I?

Oh my, that's one I haven't heard in a long time, even here.

It's quite obvious that the previous poster is ignorant on the subject of Clark's grassroots support. I'm just telling it like it is.

DTH

[sasquatch]

53. I REFUSE to vote Bush lite

if you want to pimp Clark go ahead, but don't tell me this shit that he's the only one that can beat Bush. Bush approval ratings are falling and Dean or Kucinich could hand him his ass in an election or debate. I heard Clark speak he is almost as bad as Bush at public speaking.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

55. Please Learn to Read More Carefully

I didn't say he was our only chance to beat Bush. Just our best chance.

I also love how ignorant your comment was, about how you "heard" he was a bad public speaker. Is that like how you "heard" he has no grassroots support?

Educate thyself.

DTH

[sasquatch]

57. I heard him on the Mike Malloy show

he isn't a very good public speaker.

[Waistdeep]

59. I heard him in Iowa City

He was quite good. My college age son was blown away --- he had never heard a politician speak about history and ideas before.

[OKNancy]

61. I can only speak from my real life

as I feel that's where voters are (not the internet). Clark's constituency around here are people who think he has a chance to get the Oklahoma electoral votes in the general election.

About two weeks before Clark's announcement, my daughter's government professor mentioned how he was high on Clark to her class. She approached him after class said she was a democrat and really liked Clark. Now every day after class they have "bull sessions" about Clark and politics.

My daughter is also establishing a new friendship with a young woman in her dance class. Turns out her father works for the Army Corps of Engineers. He had the job of regulating the water levels for the dam just outside of town. He got shipped to Iraq. As the two visited, it turns out that both parents are Clark supporters.

One more. One of my employees/friends is a Southern Baptist ( she's borderline fundy ) We have learned not to discuss politics or religion. Her father was a Brigade Commander down at Ft. Sill. She asked me about Clark, and seems to be really interested in him. I'm working on her--lol.

People need to understand that those of us in red states have to be a bit more practical as they look to choose a Democratic nominee. I'm very comfortable, so far, with Clark's positions, his sense of history, and defense of the Constitution, so that makes it all the easier.

[union_maid]

63. Huge natural constituency

Bigger than any other candidate in fact. I've been to Dean and Clark meet-ups in my area. The people were a little different, but there was definitely overlap. Dean's people tended to be more intellectual and more affluent. College professors, doctors, engineers. However, this isn't Vermont and I have no doubt that those people will rally behind Clark if he's the nominee. What they were there for, for the most part, was to find a candidate who could beat Bush.

Clark's were closer to blue collar, some small business owners, lots of veterans. One had set up a website for Veterans for Clark and said it had already attracted so much interest it was hard to keep up with. He gets e-mail from Veterans from all over the country asking what they can do to help. Bandwidth charges are more than he bargained for because he's getting so many hits. All these people would probably vote for Dean, too. They are aware of the damage Bush has caused with this war and to the economy. However, most of them wouldn't have come out to work for Dean. It's Clark that inspired them.