Women are capable of making the right CHOICE in any situation

[Mandate My Ass]

Including whether or not she should terminate a pregnancy. It is the absolute zenith of arrogance to suggest that the government, or anybody else for that matter, should intervene or second guess her.

Why I still click on fucking abortion threads is a mystery to me because nothing gets the temperature under my collar that hot except reading some of the dumb-assed statements I read on abortion threads.

This discussion is not for the fetus fetishists, but hey, they'll show up anyway most likely.

OK, you might want to sit down because the following information might cause severe lightheadedness and/or jaw-dropping shock.

Nobody goes willy-nilly to the abortion clinic whistling zippity doo dah like she's going to get her nails done with nothing more serious on her mind than what pair of cute pumps she's going to wear when she goes out later for her post-abortion cocktails.

Is there some woman out there somewhere who will get an abortion for a reason that a reasonable person might think is less than gut-wrenching? :shrug: Who's to say?

It has been my overwhelming, yet admittedly anecdotal experience, that women are caring, sensitive, warm-hearted, responsible, ethical beings. Oh, and they're also sexual beings, wherein I truly believe a good part of the problem lies.

Women who like sex. And those women are either too ding-batty to take proper precautions or too callous to "take resposibility" when an unplanned pregnancy occurs. :eyes:

That little undercurrent comes up on every discussion about abortion.

Pregnancy is a life-altering event. Nothing will ever be the same again whether a woman raises the kid or not. There is also this undercurrent of opinion here that if the woman would just get over pouting about a little inconvenience, :eyes: she would be rewarded with a plump little bundle of joy and life would be all sunshiney and blissful and after all that's what it's all about for us broads right?

Maybe you've seen too many movies or haven't driven to the other side of the tracks in your hometown lately.

Life is tough in the US for women and kids. They make up the bulk of the poverty-stricken. And it's only going to get worse.

I was reading the paper a few months ago on the way to work. The police found a dead toddler in a filthy apartment who had been slammed against a wall for crying and then jammed between a feces-smeared mattress and the wall where she suffocated. Her siblings were all abused (by the mother's boyfriend), malnourished and filthy.

I am not suggesting those children should have been aborted, but if abortion becomes illegal there will be a lot more tragedies like this one.

Oh, and the well-to-do have similar problems. If you finally break away from an abusive spouse/boyfriend, which is difficult to do by the way, and almost impossible when you have kids with him, you're still in danger of being killed by him. Ask Nicole Brown Simpson. Oh wait, you can't. She's dead.

It was appalling to me that with all that brouhaha over the OJ trial/media circus, almost nobody wanted to discuss the abuse angle, which is a tragedy because murder by an abuser is the number one cause of death to pregnant women in this country. I've never seen any hand-wringing, angst-ridden posts over that tragic loss of life.

I agree that life is sacred. Women's lives too.

[Mythsaje]

1. What can I say?

You're right.

[Imagevision]

62. Quite obviously this does not include Condi Rice.

[Mythsaje]

67. Being CAPABLE

of making the right decision doesn't mean one will automatically do so.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. I wasn't torn

I made the right decision, had not a second thought about it, and have no guilt/shame/doubt about doing it. But that's just me...

[Mandate My Ass]

4. Thank you and I stand corrected

This shouldn't be about making people feel guilty and I hope nothing in my post implied that. Nobody should feel guilty or ashamed of their choice and that was the only point I evidently didn't make clear.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do and there shouldn't be repercussions. I'm glad for you.

[bicentennial_baby]

5. Oh I know

I didn't mean to imply that your post was giving me that feeling, it's just that I've seen a number of people who think that if you have one, you're automatically supposed to feel bad about it forever. It was the right decision for me, but it may not be for someone else. That's why I love choice!

[movie_girl99]

8. i agree totally and completely

I was 17 and knew i couldn't do right by a child and my mom had always made it clear to me that she would NOT raise a mistake for me. She had my sister at 15 and her mom took the child and sent my mom to live with an aunt. I was a spoiled brat 17 year old who was very promiscuous and careless but the best decision i ever made for myself and the fetus was not to be a teen mom. I had many cousins who had babies and dropped out of school and I knew that was not the road i was going down. Many years later at age 21 i had my first child. She is now 18 and will start college in the fall.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. Good for you!

I was a little older than you were, but I was in a similarly bad place in my life where it would not have been positive for me, my family, or a potential child to have a child. I got my life together, got into college, and now I'm doing incredibly well in my life.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Abortion

It was not a big deal. Not a moment's hesitation, not a moment's regret.

Sorry, but the women I know who've had abortions - and some of them had them before Roe v. Wade (chilling stories) - have never had even a twinge of regret.

It's relief. Plain and simple relief.

I'm not sure that "life is sacred." I'm just not.

Choice is sacred, as is peace of mind.

[Mandate My Ass]

6. Your life is sacred

to me anyway.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. Thank you

But I've never regarded life as anything other than a gift to be used wisely and well.

I'm not sure what "sacred" means, really. The word's been so corrupted and bandied about by people with suspicious agendas.

But, thank you.

[Mandate My Ass]

9. That's true, it has been bandied about a lot, especially lately

I would love to see, just once, a thread that contains some of the outpouring of raw emotion over the unecessary death of a pregnant woman, whether by violence or pregnancy-related disease.

THere was a thread here a while ago about women's experiences in which a DUer posted that her baby died in utero, and her doctor refused to give her a D & C, saying her body would expel it on its own. She almost died of sepsis. I can't imagine how horrible it would feel to be viewed by my doctor as nothing more than a baby incubator.

[AX10]

11. It's a personal decision.

[mondo joe]

12. Gotta say I know several woman who say they were not torn but

RELIEVED.

I'm sure for some women it's a painful decision. But for many women it's not.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. Perhaps I should change my thread title

It doesn't reflect the point I was trying to make which is:

Women are responsible enough to make the proper decisions in any given situation. It seems that a fair number of people around here think that they are just dumb and/or callous so their choice should be taken away from them. They are neither.

[mondo joe]

15. Thanks. I think it's one of the unfortunate things that keep getting

repeated that this is a terrible, painful or life changing decision for every woman who does it. It serves to discourage women, or make them feel guilty for NOT being torn about it.

I don't think that was your intent. But it's something to consider.

[Name removed]

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[Blue_Roses]

23. "I'm going on what I've been told"...

did you read the post at all? I worked with women DIRECTLY, FACE-TO-FACE who pained through their decision. Not only that, I had to make this same decision myself, so yes, I DO KNOW.

Also, anyone who works with such privacy issues as this, should not be discussing patients with anyone. It is against the law.

[mondo joe]

24. It's not against the law to discuss general trends and feelings,

just as you are doing right now.

It's against the law to discuss particular patients.

And, as I said, I have spoken with women DIRECTLY who have been through and considered abortion.

And, as I said, for some women it IS painful. For some women it's not.

I accept that there is no universal response and individuals have an individual response. Do you?

[Mandate My Ass]

25. I think the other posts back you up here

It may or may not be a painful decision to make and I think that issue is sometimes twisted to suit the ends of the anti-choicers.

Fundy 1: Oh, that woman didn't even feel bad about killing her baby. End legal abortion!

Fundy 2: Women so regret their decision to get an abortion they are unable to live with the guilt. We have to protect them. End legal abortion!

[mondo joe]

26. Thanks. It's hard to understand how I can so offend someone by

simply stating that for some people this is a painful choice and for others it's not.

Are we not allowed to be individuals any more?

[Blue_Roses]

28. you damn right it's offensive

I'm sure for some women it's a painful decision. But for many women it's not.



your comment puts many in the "not affected by this decision" and it's a broadbrush attack. You don't speak for all women.

[Name removed]

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[Mandate My Ass]

33. How is it an attack to say women are not regretful?

I don't see the problem with that statement and several DUers have been candid enough to say the same.

It doesn't diminish anybody to be guilt and pain free after making the decision to end a pregnancy.

[Blue_Roses]

38. sheesh.......

It doesn't diminish anybody to be guilt and pain free after making the decision to end a pregnancy

Guilt? Who said anything about this being about guilt:eyes:

[mondo joe]

36. Hey whaddaya know, Planned Parenthood agrees with me:

"How will I feel after an abortion?

Most women feel relief. Some women feel anger, regret, guilt, or sadness for a little while."

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/pub-abortion-q-and-a.xml#1096486198207::5011982307466900085


How offensive!

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[OldLeftieLawyer]

56. Speaking for all women

I daresay you're speaking for a vast minority, and, believe me, you are NOT speaking for me or any women I've even known who chose to terminate their unwanted pregnancies.

Didacts like you give the whole choice matter a bad name. Your anger is palpable, and your intolerance is unacceptable.

[Blue_Roses]

60. ...

"Didacts like you give the whole choice matter a bad name. You anger is palpable, and your intolerance is unacceptable."

:wtf:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. Which part did you not understand?

I trust there was a question of real import there. Since you don't understand that sentence, I'd be glad to explain it to you if you'd manage to formulate an actual question.

[The Magistrate]

65. Perhaps, Comrades

A truce would be in order here. The number of deletions around this exchange seems to indicate little is being achieved....

[Blue_Roses]

34. you have a point

...sometimes twisted to suit the ends of the anti-choicers.

and I do agree that they use it for this purpose. But the fact remains that it is still an issue that should be PRIVATE between the woman and her doctor and her angst is hers and shouldn't be made into a public forum as right or wrong.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. You're pushing water uphill with this one, Joe

I have no idea where such rigid and incorrect thinking comes in, but, speaking from my own experience and the experiences of lots of women I've known during this long, wonderful life of mine, making the choice to have an abortion is a great big drag, but there's never been anyone I know who had any kind of moral qualms or even a scintilla of regret.

It was more like "Well, a mistake's been made, and now I have to fix it."

That simple, and that's all.

I'm sure there are others who agonize over it. Perhaps for them, abortion is not a wise choice.

But, always, it is a matter of choice.

And, speaking as a lawyer, there was no privilege breached. To suggest so was absurd.

You did good, Joe.

[mondo joe]

57. Thanks OLL. I think some people are invested in pain and

consider its absence some sort of offense.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

59. I think

your gender was the issue, not your message.

What a weird display of anger THAT was. But, as I said, you did good, man.

[bicentennial_baby]

27. It's not a painful decision for everyone

It wasn't for me, not at all...Are you saying I'm a liar?

[Blue_Roses]

29. "Are you saying I'm a liar?"

did I address you personally? If not, then save your attack for someone else.

[bicentennial_baby]

32. Asking a question is now an attack?

Wow, DUers sure have gotten sensitive over time...if that's an attack, then :shrug:

[Blue_Roses]

35. oh, come on

give it a rest...:eyes: you know what you're doing...

[bicentennial_baby]

37. Uh, ok

My point is that there is no absolute on whether or not abortion is a painful decision for women. For some it is, for some it is not. Neither you or I can say one way or the other where the majority lies, if anywhere. It's an individual thing, and there just can't be an absolute on human feelings in a particular situation.

[Blue_Roses]

41. I agree

and how the hell this got blown into a "right or wrong" issue is beyond me. As someone who has had an abortion and worked with women facing this decision, I can say that this goes either way. What started this thread was a simple word: MANY, or maybe it's just the fact a male was the one making this assumption, either way, it hit a nerve.

[mondo joe]

43. How did it get spun into "right or wrong"? Might have to do with

your claim that it IS a painful decision - even when women say otherwise - and your problems with a member of, as you put it, "male species" reporting it.

[Blue_Roses]

46. Okay, I see --it's a "play" on words...

I'm sure for some women it's a painful decision. But for many women it's not.

unless you care to discuss this issue in another light, without the attacks, I'm done.

[mondo joe]

50. I confess - I am of "the male species" and I believe the women

who have told me about their experiences; I believe the woman who is the mother of my daughters who also provides abortions; I believe the Planned Parenthood speakers I have listened to; I believe Planned Parenthood; I support reproductive rights with my votes and my dollars.

And I believe them over you.

I confess.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

58. Darling, darling

One headcase does not "DUers" make.

We're here, and we're sane.

And, like you, relieved we had the choice.

(No, that was not an attack - that was an intolerant response to your "unacceptable" experience and opinion - so much for tolerance, eh?)

[luvLLB]

18. it is a painful decision, but ya gotta do what you feel is right for you

and then move on without regrets.

[Blue_Roses]

30. thanks

and I totally agree:)

[tnlefty]

17. Great post!!! Prior to the current assault on birth control,

how many women do you know who couldn't take the pill for health reasons? and/or couldn't have an IUD placed? and were left with less effective methods of birth control.

How many women already have a child with a genetic disorder and understand that the odds are very great that any other offspring would also be afflicted?

Why aren't there better birth control methods for men - the other half of the contribution to pregnancy?

The current assault on the morning after pill, birth control pills and devices is just insane.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. I can't take the pill and I can't get another IUD

because I had one that caused an infection and they said I'm high risk to get it again.

I have always had to rely on barrier methods and they're the least reliable but I'm extremely careful. I still had two scares and took the morning after pill once but never faced an unintended pregnancy.

Both those times I did have a scare I was single with a small son. My concern was not making his quality of life worse because I had another mouth to feed. Luckily, I never had to make the choice but I'm almost certain what it would have been.

No, the subject of men rarely comes up in this discussion. It's as if once the "deposit" has been made, he's out of the equation.

[MissB]

20. FWIW

the person starting the latest "convince me that abortion isn't wrong" thread was banned.

[Ysolde]

39. Great post!

And, recommended! I, too, want the discussion to be about more than the fetus's "rights". Why is it that the "pro-birth" folks see a pregnant woman solely as an incubator with no rights and no brains and no conscious? The assault on women by so many facets of this society needs to be answered. And, even though I hate it when my dad says it, often we are our own worst enemies. When you have so many idiot RW women out there bashing all women and worshiping misogynists, how will we make progress?

[Mandate My Ass]

47. Thanks

The discussion has gotten a little off course.

I do believe that we need to look at the quality of life a little bit here. We're the richest nation in the world and women and children are living in squalor without health benefits or sufficient food. Welfare reform has made some of these women poorer now that they have (crappy) jobs, although you never hear about that.

There this exaltation of motherhood and babies in our culture, but where is the support? Nobody cares about the mother or the baby after it's born and that's a disgrace. The Laci Peterson law was a joke, I'm sorry to say and it was only passed because of the media hype and the political opportunity it gave Bush to play up to the fundies.

[H2O Man]

48. Without even considering abortion,

it doesn't matter if adults of either sex are "capable of making the RIGHT choice in any situation." Democracy includes everyone having the right to make the wrong choices. For example, about a fifth of the potential voters choose to vote for George W. Bush. While I do not think they have the capacity to make the right choice, I recognize their right to err.

[Mandate My Ass]

53. LOL, now that's a choice I think we should legislate

voting against your own and the rest of America's interests should not be allowed under any circumstances.

My second badly worded subject line is at fault here.

There is very, very little respect for life in our culture as evidenced by many people's nonchalance over what is going on at home and abroad. This is the perfect wedge issue for this time and place, you don't have to demonstrate any respect for life or quality of life, just act all outraged when a woman wants to end a pregnancy.

[H2O Man]

68. You created a fascinating thread here.

It is too bad that a number of posts were deleted. I found that it was possible to carry on a heck of a conversation about the Jackson case, without the emotional content getting out of hand, for 36 hours. Abortion appears to be a much more difficult subject to approach that way. However, your thread has been very interesting, and I thank you for it. Keep up the good work!

[Karenina]

63. Bada-bing

Bada-:nuke:

We REALLY need more cowbell in this thread! ;-)

[friesianrider]

64. If you ask me, my life IS worth more than a fetus'

People always say "what life is more valuable than a child's?" My answer is always: the mother carrying the child. If you ask me if my life is more valuable than a fetus', I'll tell you MY life is definitely more valuable. You can flame away if you want or call it selfish but it is.

I always love how men have the most to say about abortion. They can shove their comments up their ass. They won't have to deal with the COUNTLESS health and emotional problems brought about by being pregnant and giving birth.

Being pregnant and giving birth is more than an "inconvenience." It's a big fucking deal. If you have women HONEST enough to say they are UNPREPARED for a child, why wouldn't you embrace that? After all, how many times have we seen a friend/family member/stranger and thought "that person has no business being a parent"?

And for the record, I would LOVE to know statistics on people who are such staunch pro-lifers - and how many children THEY have adopted. Unless your home is filled to the top with minority crack and AIDS babies whose mothers "chose life" I couldn't care less about their little and loud "choose life" complaints. Put your money where you mouth is.

[BlueIris]

66. Nice OP. Been trying to think of a way to articulate that for months.

Sometimes, it's very difficult for me to post on this site because of the distinct, anti-choice bent so many of the posters seem to think is acceptable to embrace. Sick, if you ask me, especially for Democrats. Thank god at least one person has her head on straight around here.