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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:19 PM
Original message
Help!! Very young, naive girl thinks she wants to join the Army
...for a "good college education." I've e-mailed her sister a bunch of links to good info, including pictures of the carnage of innocent Iraqi civilians, but I wonder if any of you know any good links to websites or other info I could send her sister. She's desperate to show her the truth so she won't make this HUGE mistake.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. If my 19-year-old daughter tried to join the Army...
...I'd have to lock her in her room until she turned 30.
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kittenpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. has she seen Fahrenheit 9/11
it convinced my nephew not to go
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I will mention F/9-11....
DUH!! should have thought of that.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. For Many People
Serving in the Army is the only way they'll ever afford college. It's gotten so expensive that most people just can't plain afford it, even with loans.

Still the other thing to think about is once she signs up for her term they don't have to let her go. She's essentially volunteering for permanent duty at this point. They won't let her go and keep her on for who knows how long. She might not get to go to college for a decade if she survives that long.
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kittenpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. exactly, she can always join the army later, but she can't change
her mind once she's in.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. That's Bush's plan
Not too long ago I remember reading Bush was cutting stuff out of the college program. :mad: Making it harder for people to join and pay for everything. Even the community school I go to is expensive with a full schedule.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. From the Conscientious Objector website
"You wouldn't buy a car without looking under the hood. Don't enlist before you check out the reality of military life that lies behind the glamorous television ads and glossy brochures."

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Good one! Thanks... n/t
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Knowledge is power
In addition to things like what recruiters don't want you to know, and what questions they don't want you to ask, there is also information about how to get money for college that doesn't involve throwing your life away or killing someone else.

College is a worthwhile endeavor, but killing or being killed really shouldn't be part of the price of admission.
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paula777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. I actually would (have) bought a car without looking under the hood
Not that that is neither here nor there - I wouldn't join the military - period.
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libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Maybe she should try to get into one of the academies, it would
give her a great education and bush* would be out of office long before she was called to active duty.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here is a compelling piece (from a blog)
Stresses of battle hit female GIs hard
Sunday, Mar 20, 2005, 9:40 AM ET

By Kirsten Scharnberg Chicago Tribune national correspondent

On a mission just south of Baghdad over the winter, a young soldier jumped into the gunner's turret of an armored Humvee and took control of the menacing .50-caliber machine gun. She was 19 years old, weighed barely 100 pounds and had a blond ponytail hanging out from under her Kevlar helmet.

"This is what is different about this war," Lt. Col. Richard Rael, commander of the 515th Corps Support Battalion, said of the scene at the time. "Women are fighting it. Women under my command have confirmed kills. These little wisps of things are stronger than anyone could ever imagine and taking on more than most Americans could ever know."

But today, two years after the start of an Iraq war in which traditional front lines were virtually obliterated and women were tasked to fill lethal combat roles more routinely than in any conflict in U.S. history, the nation may be just beginning to see and feel the effects of such service.

Thousands of women, like the male veterans of so many wars before, are returning home emotionally damaged by what they have seen and done. These female troops appear more prone to post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, than their male counterparts.

And studies indicate that many of these women suffer from more pronounced and debilitating forms of PTSD than men, a worrisome finding in a nation that remembers how many traumatized troops got back from Vietnam and turned to drugs and violence, alcohol and suicide.

One children's book increasingly popular among military families illustrates what the effects of this most recent war might mean for society in the years and even decades to come: "Why Is Mommy Like She Is? A Book for Kids About PTSD."

In the wake of such concerns, the Veterans Affairs Department has launched a pioneering $6 million study of PTSD among female veterans. It is the first VA study to focus exclusively on female veterans; 8 percent to 10 percent of active-duty and retired military women suffer from PTSD.

"PTSD is a very real problem for women who serve in the military," said Paula Schnurr, one of the study's lead researchers and the deputy executive director of the VA's National Center for PTSD in White River Junction, Vt. "This study is specifically addressing that, and we hope it will not only help us treat women coming home from Iraq, but all those who have ever served and struggled with PTSD in any conflict before."

The study's findings are not due until the end of the year, but researchers already have made some startling discoveries that are illustrative of the nature of PTSD among female veterans and of the U.S. military.

According to Schnurr, data indicate that female military personnel are far more likely than their male counterparts to have been exposed to some kind of trauma or multiple traumas before joining the military or being deployed in combat. That may include physical assault, sexual abuse or rape.

"The speculation is that many of them are joining the military to get away from adverse environments," said Schnurr, also a professor of psychiatry at Dartmouth College, speaking of the nearly 216,000 U.S. women on active duty and the nearly 151,000 who are part of the reserves and National Guard.

The implication of such a finding on PTSD research is considered significant. Because most research indicates that a person is at greater risk of developing PTSD--or developing more severe PTSD--when he or she has had past traumas, many female troops are deploying to war zones already heavily predisposed to react adversely to the intense fear, killing and loss routinely encountered there.

"The evidence is conclusive," said Rachel MacNair, an expert in the psychological effects of violence and PTSD. "The greater the trauma in your life, the greater the symptoms of PTSD."

MacNair, however, focuses on another factor that she believes more acutely affects the rate of PTSD among veterans of Iraq: whether they have killed during their deployment.

In 1999, MacNair earned her doctorate at the University of Missouri-Kansas City with a study that analyzed the data from the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study, a landmark congressionally funded project that studied nearly 1,700 veterans.

Her findings were stark: Troops who had killed--or believed they had killed--suffered significantly higher rates of PTSD than those who had not.

"It is very clear that being shot at is traumatic, or losing your buddy is traumatic, but the act of shooting and killing another human being, something that goes against every instinct we have, is the biggest trauma of all," said MacNair, who calls this kind of PTSD "perpetration-induced traumatic stress."

That hypothesis by MacNair, who is strongly critical of the military, is supported by history and by military experts.

S.L.A. Marshall, one of the earlier official Army historians, estimated after studying World War II veterans that only 15 percent had fired their weapons during battle. He asserted from his interviews with soldiers that their failure in battle was because they were more afraid of killing than of being killed. Other studies show that even the most poorly treated prisoners of war had lower rates of PTSD than front-line soldiers because the prisoners no longer were in a position where they had to kill.

How such findings translate to the Iraq war is clear. Unlike previous conflicts, where women rarely were pulling the triggers or running the weaponry that left enemies dead on the battlefield, they routinely are doing so in Iraq, as Lt. Col. Rael pointed out on that cold December day on the outskirts of Baghdad.

On top of that they are being taken prisoner, as was Pvt. Jessica Lynch during the initial invasion; they, like their male counterparts, are being constantly mortared and ambushed by a guerrilla insurgency; and they are watching fellow troops go home grievously wounded or dead in numbers not seen since the war in Vietnam.

Killing `tips the scales'

"It all adds up," said MacNair, "but the act of having killed does seem to be the factor that tips the scales in favor of PTSD."

Of the nearly 245,000 veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, almost 12,500 have been to VA counseling centers for readjustment problems and symptoms of PTSD. In addition, a study in The New England Journal of Medicine found that up to 17 percent of troops returning from Iraq were suffering from PTSD or other readjustment problems.

So far no statistics have been released detailing how many of these patients are women, but numerous support groups have sprung up specifically for women with PTSD. In one Internet chat group, Sisters Bound by Honor, women struggling with PTSD talk with one another about their experiences.

Yet the women who most need counseling to help them deal with what they witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan--like their male counterparts--are the most unlikely to seek it.

A Defense Department study of combat troops returning from Iraq found that soldiers and Marines deeply suffering from PTSD and readjustment problems were not likely to seek help because of the stigma such an act might carry. In the study, 1 in 6 veterans acknowledged symptoms of severe depression and PTSD, but 6 in 10 of the same veterans feared their commanders and fellow troops would treat them differently and lose confidence in them if they sought treatment for their problems.

That seems especially true of women, who have fought for years to be assigned positions in the Army that once were off-limits to them. A number of female Iraq war veterans suffering from PTSD declined to be interviewed for this article.

Alert to early need

Still, former Army Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, who taught psychology at West Point and wrote the book "On Killing," which closely documented the link between killing and PTSD, believes the treatment of PTSD among the veterans of Iraq could be the most effective in combat history. Using an analogy to obesity, he said that after past wars, only those traumatized soldiers "who were 400 pounds overweight got attention or treatment."

"But now," Grossman said, "we are so sensitive to PTSD and its effects that we can notice the person who is the equivalent of just 20 or so pounds overweight, and we can help them then, long before they have the psychiatric equivalent of high blood pressure and heart attack."

The study of female veterans suffering from PTSD may be just such a start. The study includes hundreds of women and aims, among other things, to discover which clinical treatments are most effective for women with the disorder.

Half of the women will be treated through prolonged exposure therapy, in which each woman will be guided for 10 weeks through vivid remembering of the traumatic event or events until her emotional response decreases through "habituation." Schnurr, one of the study's directors, compares habituation to the way city dwellers grow immune over time to loud noises such as police sirens or car alarms.

"The goal is that the memory of the traumatic event is no longer as startling, as terrifying, when it comes," she said.

The other half of the women will be treated with what is known as "present-centered therapy," a treatment that focuses on helping a patient deal with her current life challenges rather than the memory of past traumas.

"Both therapies are appropriate and helpful to some degree," Schnurr said, "but we expect that the prolonged exposure will be the most effective. If that is the case, I think we will begin using that treatment much more--and more effectively--in the years to come."

Although the goal of the study is to determine which therapies work best for women suffering from PTSD, experts agree that if the study is conclusive it eventually may be applied to tens of thousands of Iraq war veterans, male and female alike.

"It is our hope that we can find ways to help these women," Schnurr said. "But, more than that, we are hoping to draw some conclusions that can help us in the treatment of PTSD across the board. That means men and women, soldiers and Marines, those who are suffering for reasons having nothing to do with combat at all."

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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. If that doesn't convince her maybe this will
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4197223/

>>>>snip
In the memo, Rumsfeld said he was concerned “about recent reports regarding allegations of sexual assaults on service members deployed to Iraq and Kuwait.” The incidents involve U.S. military personnel attacking one another, a defense official told The Associated Press.
>>>snip
Dozens of cases reported
The Defense Department said that in the U.S. Central Command region — which includes Iraq and Kuwait as well as the Horn of Africa, the entire Persian Gulf region and Central Asia, including Afghanistan — the U.S. military had received reports in the past year of 88 incidents of “sexual misconduct.”
>>>>>snip
The women, ranging from enlisted soldiers to officers, reported poor medical treatment, lack of counseling and incomplete criminal investigations; some said they were threatened with punishment after reporting assaults.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. yikes!! These poor kids...
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. I do remember
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 12:36 PM by FreedomAngel82
last year reading about this girl who was sexually raped by two/three men in the military. She was trying to get justice but people were calling her horrible name's and claiming she was a phoney, a lesbian who just hated men, etc. :cry: It was really heartbreaking.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Got it! Thanks so much n/t
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Send her this poem by WW-1 veteran Wilfred Owen ..
Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.


Wilfred Owen (1916)

(My emphasis - bold and underline)


The old lie, "Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori," basically translates to "it is sweet and proper to die for one's country."



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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. that's haunting n/t
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. I remember reading that poem in school.
It still haunts me to this day.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Take her to this site
at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info and have her watch the following documentaries:

The fix is in: the Downing Street Memo and why it matters
War Makes Beast of Men
Fallujah- The Day after
60,000 Iraqi's disappeared into US camps
Purple hearts: back from Iraq
The New Pearl Harbor
Iraq, Tony and the Truth
Torture: the dirty business
Sticks and Stones
Homeless vets: from Vietnam to Iraq
Purple Hearts
Losing Hearts & Minds
F9/11 from Michael Moore (if she already hasn't seen it)
The Secret Government
Hijacking Castrophe
Uncovered: the whole truth about Iraq
Operation Saddam: America's propoganda battle
The incredible lying Bushco
The Bush family fortunes
Exposed: the Carlyle Group
War in all it's glory
Images of war
How The Rendon Group Spun the Iraq Propaganda for Chalabi's INC
POW's video
Victory?
Convoy of death
Lifting the fog
Welcome to the new world order
Iraq: war against the people
Greg palast's Iraq segment from "Newsnight" at his website http://www.gregpalast.com
Iraq-gate
Bush family history
Info wars

These films are great and should be an eye opener.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I will....... thanks n/t
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Dez Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ask her if she's prepared to kill
another human being for an illegal war.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. unless it's your family member - let her have fun in the army
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 12:37 PM by LynneSin
Seriously, no matter how much information you provide that the army is full of bullshit and she will neither get the education she thinks she is going to get or a free pass avoiding Iraq, if she's not your sister/daughter/cousin/niece then why bother. As horrible as this sounds, maybe it's Darwinism at it's best and unfortunately some people just have their minds set for what they want to do
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Well, just for fun
I say let's make sure that it's what the young woman in question really wants to do, and is making a decision with as much information as she'd need to buy a car or rent an apartment.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. That was my thought... n/t
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. This is great everyone, thanks!
I will send all of this along and hope that it changes her mind. It will be much appreciated. I love this place!!
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stevans_41902 Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. My boyfriends cousin joined before the war started thinking it was
going to pay for her college. She was sent to Iraq and has been close to death so many times that she took up smoking b/c her nerves are so bad. She delivered supplies and the day after she left to go back to the U.S. the supply tent where she was stationed got bombed and killed almost everyone there. She was sent back to Iraq after being back in the U.S. for a short period of time (I believe a couple of months.) I also went to a small college for 2 years and there were twins who joined up to pay for college - they were sent to Iraq before they could even finish their first semester. The point is, there are other options out there - tell her to get loans. If she argues that she doesn't want to be in debt, ask her if she would rather be dead. She won't even be able to go to college if she signs up b/c she will be sent to Iraq - so the plan of joining to pay for college is worthless!
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have to pay back 60 grand for college loans...I say let her go if she
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 12:54 PM by tjdee
wants.

She is young, and obviously unaware of many of the realities involved in military service. I would also assume she thinks she won't be on the front lines/fighting anyone/killing Iraqi children.

I would concentrate less on "war is awful" and more on "there are other ways to pay for college".

There is a persistent push in lower income areas particularly, to go into "the service" because they'll pay for your college, your housing, etc. When I heard that speech, there were no wars going on, though. One of the mothers in my neighborhood is already planning for her 9 year old son to go into the army. When she found out I had been to college, she managed to make me feel bad because I'm starting out 60K in the hole.

60K in the hole and alive, but damn.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Yeah, wonder how she'll feel...
when he comes home in a body bag. I think any mom "planning" for a 9yo to enlist has to be off her rocker!!
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. As far as paying for college goes
Even if the college tuition is a concern, she's still better off doing college first. The army has programs to pay off preexisting loans.

So why would you do this:

Go into the army with a high school diploma
earn less pay while in the Army
use the GI bill to pay for undergraduate school
Enlist during a certain time of war

When you could do this:

Go to undergraduate school on a loan
When you graduate, reassess your options
If you can't find a decent paying job, then consider enlisting - at least you'll have a CHANCE of serving during peacetime.
Get promoted faster, earn more in the army because you have a degree
Use the loan repayment program to retroactively pay for your undergraduate degree
Use the GI bill to pay for a graduate degree

Financially, if you MUST join the military, it's better to set yourself up to use both the loan repayment AND the GI bill. It just makes no sense to enlist first.
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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
29.  yodermon's post
maybe you should send her the link to yodermon's post.

Or maybe she should check out OpTruth.org. You might never convince her to change her mind but at least that site will give her a perspective from people who were actually there.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. wow.... I hadn't seen that....
I will add it. I did send her the OpTruth website. That's a good one, too.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Ok what did the recruiters promise, oh yes the GI BILL
it has been defangued to the point that anybody joining now will not get a good set of benefits as they used to... I think my hubby will still get some of them as he joined twenty years ago (and just retired), but she won't.

Oh and whatever they promised her, if this is NOT in writing and she keeps a copy of it with mom, it will disapear, they have been doing this a lot.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. Ask her how she thinks she'll look in a bikini...
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 01:18 PM by BiggJawn
...With maybe only one arm and one leg?
Or maybe no legs. Or maybe she'll be blind in addition to not having any flippers, so she won't notice people staring at her.

Or maybe she'll be DEAD, and it won't matter that everyone's looking at her "Transfer Tube".

Ask her this: "If somebody offered you money for college if you'd go to the Subway and piss on the Third Rail, would you do it? You might NOT get electrocuted, sure. But then, you MIGHT."

this is how the BushCo is doing it, folks. Destroy the job market, kill Pell Grants, and screw the economy so that it's more expensive than ever to go to College.

Then send in the Used Car Salesmen "Hey Kids! Yer rich unkle's got PHAT cash for COLLEGE!!!! A full 4 years paid for, and you only owe us THREE years in return! Yo, check it OUT!"


College is NOT worth an arm and a leg, IMO.
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lies and propaganda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Run for the hills. I joined at 19
and was court martialed and kicked out in little under two years.
Its not a place for someone who has any kind of a voice.
I went in to be a dietician, thinking that would be a sweet hospital job that I could do when I got out. WRONG! I was a fucking line cook.
And i had to get up at three in the morning every day to serve piece of shit males omlettes with whatever fixings they wanted.

oF course their is so much more to the story. But the point is that I came out a changed person, and now at 25 looking back to that 19 yr old, it wasnt the best change I could have made.

College educations dont even count (anymore) as much as she stands to lose.
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