The other abortion issue is RAPE

[undeterred]

This is for me, the most important reason that abortion needs to be kept safe and legal.

When I was 19 years old I was the victim of an attempted rape. The same person who tried to rape me was accused of rape by at least 5 other women. He spent many years in prison. After this experience I volunteered as a rape victim advocate for about seven years.

I found out that, according to the FBI, only one in 10 women reports a rape. One in three women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. And rape victims do become pregnant. I have known of rape victims who had abortions; I have also known of some who delivered a child and gave it up for adoption; I know some who kept the child and raised it.

I also found out that rape happens more often to women who are vulnerable for a variety of reasons- using drugs or alcohol, mental illness, homelessness, mental retardation, living in an abusive home and other reasons. And because of that factor, rape is seldom prosecuted - maybe 1 out of 100 rapes is actually successfully prosecuted.

The argument that an exception could be made to allow only victims of rape and incest to have abortions simply does not work because it is often beyond proof, and proof in a court of law does not happen fast enough for one terminate a pregancy in the first trimester. A woman who has been raped and becomes pregnant does not deserve to be put on trial to prove the circumstances of her pregnancy.

Rape can happen to any woman. And if it does, and if she becomes pregnant, she deserves to have the choice to terminate that pregnancy.

[KingFlorez]

1. That's what the neocons don't care about

They are just so bent on pandering to their religious fanatic base, they think that they can control peoples lives. They want to outlaw abortion under all circumstances.

[Zenlitened]

2. These freaks even want to ban the morning-after pill. They are PRO-RAPE!

Check out the story linked in this thread, if you can stomach it: :grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x2149

[undeterred]

3. When I volunteered with rape victims in Chicago

none of the Roman Catholic hospitals would offer morning after pills either. So, the police never took rape victims to those hospitals unless they were men.

I live in Wisconsin, and we've got some real idiots in the state legislature.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. Oh, it won't stop there.

The "morning after pill" is just a concentrated dose of normal oral contraceptives. They're looking to ban THOSE, as well, because the birth control pill can, under certain circumstances, prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg.

If implemented in full, the Republican Platform as written for the past 3 decades would effectively turn the pill into a controlled substance.

[AwakeAtLast]

88. And Viagra is flowing out of every doctor's office

covered by insurance. :banghead:

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Call me crazy

but I don't have a problem with viagra AND contraception being widely available- and covered by insurance plans. Shit, as far as I'm concerned, make both of 'em available OTC. If the pill was available OTC, it would make all this religious right pharmacist bullshit a non-issue.

Sex is a healthy part of a good, complete life for most people; i.e. those who aren't inclined towards the priesthood.

[AwakeAtLast]

97. You're not crazy

and that is the point. Just the idea of controlling BCPs, but letting Viagra flow freely, just proves the point that women are never paid any consideration when the topic is sex. We are not supposed to do it, much less like it, and we definitely should have to take care of the children that come from it by ourselves without any government support. Once again, :banghead:

I like the idea of BCPs being OTC, just like condoms. But that would give women too much control over their bodies, just like the original topic.

BTW, I even think those inclined to the priesthood have a healthy sex life! Just my opinion.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Yeah, making the pill available OTC has been floated a few times

it would make WAY too much sense.. which is probably why it won't happen, at least not in this country, without some big changes. If you factor in the reality that most health plans (the ones that even cover it) will only pay for one month at a time, generally, then add to that the fact that many places have pharmacies with weird hours, or you travel and end up in one of these crazy places with rabid right-wingers and no pills...

It's astounding that the so-called "pro-life" people aren't the FIRST ones out there saying, lets do everything we can to make it easier to prevent pregnancies... except the agenda isn't "life", it's control.

And, yeah, the double standard as it relates to sexuality is just ridiculous.

[undeterred]

4. Kick!

[Beaver Tail]

5. Questions

My question too all of you is when does human life begin and more important… WHY

[knitter4democracy]

93. That's complicated, these days.

If human life begins at conception, then do we have a murdering God (or whatever you believe in) who kills most of the embryos? That's what happens. My husband was taught in med school that the odds of bringing a baby to term are about one in a million. So many don't make it.

If human life begins at implantation, again, many don't make it much beyond that. Once a baby gets to quickening, though, the odds are much better. Once a baby gets to medical viability (around 24 weeks, depending on the medical care available in the area), the odds are even better still that the little one will make it to one year of age.

Some cultures didn't even allow mothers and fathers to name their babies until after a certain time period, sometimes even as long as a year. Too many babies died very early. Their society didn't want to invest too much in someone that might not make it. That may sound barbaric these days, but we aren't so far removed from it.

Personally, I believe that potential life starts at conception. Having lost more than I even know in trying to conceive (many, many very late periods, meaning early miscarriages) and carried two to term, I think that embryos are potential life. I even lost one that had to have implanted, my "period" came so late. Implantation is still potential life.

Something tells me that a loving God takes care of all of that, all those miscarriages, all those abortions, all those stillbirths, all those babies. It's more mucked up and complicated than anyone wants to admit--it won't fit on a sign or in a soundbite. What about the woman who really doesn't want the baby and then starts to miscarry--is she a murderer, too? What about the woman whose body just can't carry a baby to term and has seven miscarriages for the one she does manage to bear? Is she going to burn in hell, too? Oddly enough, all of the stories in the Bible I've seen about women dealing with childbearing issues show God's compassion. There aren't too many evil women in the Bible, and I think we need to ask why and start the conversation there.

[mondo joe]

6. My only issue with the rape exception is this:

I support 100% every woman's right to abortion. My position is that no one but you owns your body. It has nothing to do with when life begins or doesn't. Your body = your choice.

But for those who are opposed to abortion on some other grounds, it's hard for me to see why rape should be an exception ONLY because it isn't an exception from their reasoning. If the opposition is that it's a life, it's a life whether it results from rape or not. And so on.

I apologize is this appears to be insensitive to rape victims - it is not intended to be. I acknowledge that rape victims have experienced a terrible violation, and pregnancy resulting from it only compounds that.

And I support the right of rape victims and any other woman to terminate a pregnancy.

But though I am strongly opposed to anti-choice advocates, I have more respect for the consistent rather than the inconsistent. Though when it comes down to it, I have no significant respect for either.

[Beaver Tail]

7. When life begins IS impotant

Avoiding it is avoids a VERY important question,, the right of the child.

Edited for typos

[GeekMonkey]

9. when they draw their first breath and are

physically separated from the host (the mother)

[slackmaster]

13. In the Middle Ages, the RCC considered "quickening" to be the line

For male fetuses quickening officially occurred 40 days after conception.

For female fetuses quickening officially occurred 80 days after conception.

[MissB]

67. That is fascinating

Why the 40 day difference between boys and girls? (You don't have to answer, I'm just guessing it was a bit of misogyny on the part of the church.)

[slackmaster]

70. Not hard to guess at all

Not exactly mysogyny, but institutionalized sexism, or the misguided implementation of a desire to have a male child i.e. an heir.

[slackmaster]

11. We've decided the child has no rights at least until 4th month

Some people on one extreme think that's giving too much to the fetuses, some on the other extreme think that every fertilized egg deserves the full protection afforded a child or adult.

I say it's a working truce, and the line in the sand is drawn correctly.

[GeekMonkey]

18. I can deal with the truce

but my personal feeling is that abortion shold be legal until the fetus is 18 yrs old.

lol

[slackmaster]

21. Yeah, I went through being parent to a teenager too

:evilgrin:

[mondo joe]

27. I say life doesn't begin until the fetus can make its own breakfast

and not a moment before.

[mondo joe]

15. Not at all. We do not entitle some to use the bodies of others because

they live. I am not entitled to one of your kidneys or even your blood, even though they may be the only things to keep me alive. I am not even entitled to your organs after your death, when you can no longer use them.

When life begins is irrelevant to the principle that our bodies are our own and cannot be used against our will to support another life.

[GeekMonkey]

17. Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way

[BeTheChange]

92. You didnt make me...

Your actions are not responsible for me in anyway. It is ridiculous for me to demand something of someone who is in no way responsible or related to my situation.

That logic is ridiculous.

If its your body then make sure to use your body in a way that guarantees your control over it. I dont think sex is dirty, I dont think you have to be married to have it, nor do I think it should be used for procreation solely. I do however think that if you cannot accept what very well could be the result of your actions then perhaps you should not be having sex, or you should take steps to insure that you cannot get caught in that situation.

Tubes can be tied... condoms, diaphrams, spermicide and birth control can be used in conjunction with natural family planning (Rhythm- and no, that doesnt mean pulling out before you ejaculate). Tell me how expensive a diaphram, condoms and a thermomether is. How much is your average abortion. Gimme some statistics of how many women who have had abortions that are responsibly using birth control. A thermometer costs .75 cents. You can draw a calendar on a peice of paper.. obviously, that alone doesnt work for everyone.. some women have very irregular cycles.

Of all the women Ive met who wanted so much control of their own body, do you know that not a single one of them knew their body? None of them woke up every morning and took their temperature and checked their cervical mucus at the same time daily.. charting everything like every woman in my family does. Not a single one that I have had the pleasure to meet. Im no stranger to groups of women.

Fine, abortion is legal, I accept that. But Im friggin sick of these arguments about hosts and being held hostage and all other crap. They sound so friggin selfish it just makes me sick. Economic reasons, I understand.. health of the mother, rape, mental issues, domestic abuse, family pressure.. yadda yadda. But because its my body and I dont have to if I dont wanna... Im gonna take my ball and go home.. it's so freaking callous to me.

Ive got to stop clicking on abortion threads at DU. Note to self.

[knitter4democracy]

94. That's why this issue gets people so heated.

Ask yourself why those women don't know their own bodies. That's the real crux of the issue, I think.

I know the women you speak of. I went to a small, evangelical Christian college, and I was shocked at how I was the only woman in my dorm who kept track of my own body. I had to teach the others. Many had been kept out of sex ed classes (mine covered all of that, but I can't speak for all sex ed class curricula) and then never taught at home. Many had gone to class but never been encouraged to own the information they'd been taught. Many had gone to schools that didn't even teach any sort of sex ed or had been homeschooled. They honestly did not know their own bodies at all.

I actually shocked a whole group of women hanging out in my room one day early in my frosh year when I announced that I needed to go change my pad and hated the cramps I was having. After I got back, they were all gone. Of course, after that, I became the go-to girl for all things sex-related. :eyes:

Why don't girls learn about their own bodies? Why don't these women keep track of their cycles and know when they're most likely to engage in sex or need some pads? I think that's what we really need to look into and fix before we get all heated about abortion.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. Quality of life is important

and much more easily verifiable.

We do not have a culture of life or else every woman and child in this country would have health care and sufficient food, clothing and shelter.

Splitting hairs over when "life" actually begins when we have needless suffering and death and poverty in the richest nation on earth. I don't see any handwringing over those issues so I'm not going to get bent out of shape over how many cells divisions need to take place in order to protect "rights."

I don't see anybody giving a shit about the rights of the poor to live a dignified life so screw that noise.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. So do sperms have rights, too?

Or is it only the micron-sized fertilized egg that is transmogrified into a full human being (with rights under the 14th amendment) at the second of conception? And if we start granting personhood to single cells, where is that going to end?

[donsu]

99. the right of the child begins after it leaves the womb and after it

breathes and stays alive. the mother has all the rights before delivery.

[sandnsea]

10. I agree with that

Traumatic pregnancies happen for alot of reasons, for one.

But I also agree that it's life or it isn't. If one can accept an abortion because of rape or incest, then it's a bafflement to me that they can't accept it because of poverty, youth or other traumatic situations.

[undeterred]

22. I'd say its a life when there is implantation

But even though I say its a life, I can't give it the full rights of an independent human being. I cannot place the full moral weight of a child on a first trimester fetus. Its a potential life within a womans body and dependent upon her body for life. Sometimes there is a real conflict between those two lives. There is no simple equation.

Cherishing life IS a guiding principle but its not the only thing that matters here. The mother's desire and ability to be a mother also matters. It should be her decision to make.

[slackmaster]

8. The fundies have a pat answer to deflect that question

They'll tell you that women who are raped only rarely get pregnant, then hastily change the subject.

[undeterred]

12. There used to be a myth about that

the likelihood of getting pregnant is no different than having consensual unprotected sex at that point in the menstrual cycle.

[slackmaster]

14. Some GOP asshat in Congress said something about it once

I don't remember which idiot it was, but he said women who are being raped can't get pregnant because "their juices aren't flowing".

:eyes:

[Beaver Tail]

16. This is why I don't like this topic

WHY is the child a living being when it is born and draws its first breath. Just saying it does not make it so. WHY!!!

Us “fundaments” respect life in all of it’s stages. We believe conception IS the beginning of a life.

Is rape evil and wrong? Most certainly so. Do I want to choke the living shit out of and beat to near death a rapist? Oh yes.. I have personal feelings about this cause I know how it feels.

Because of my belief that life begins at conception I cannot believe abortion is right.

Yes rape is wrong but with aborting you punish the child for the evil of an adult.

[GeekMonkey]

20. Because, until then, it is part of the mother, physically attached

[Beaver Tail]

23. Physically attached?

With that logic then as long as the umbilical cord is attached you can still kill the child… INCLUDING after birth

[mondo joe]

30. To the contrary, an infant with an umbilical cord need only

have the cord cut to end the attachment to the mother.

But you have no more right to require a woman to carry a fetus in her body than you have the right to demand she have sex with you. If she doesn't waant it in her body, she need not have it.

[knitter4democracy]

95. Ummmmm . . . You do know how that works, don't you?

I don't mean to sound nasty, but the umbilical cord is not still attached to the mother after birth. The placenta has already detached from the lining of the uterus and is getting ready to come out itself. The umbilical cord is only attached to the placenta.

That's why the courts have settled on viability--when the baby can live outside of the mother on its own. These days, that's getting earlier and earlier.

[smirkymonkey]

98. Let me explain it....

If the fetus cannot exist INDEPENDENTLY of it's host (the mother) than it should not have rights INDEPENDENTLY of it's host.

[supernova]

24. So don't have one

In many cultures, the child is not named officially until it has been born for some weeks.

Anything can happen in a pregnancy, even when the child is wanted.

[mondo joe]

25. I am living. Am I entitled to one of your kidneys if it will save my life?

Your blood?

Am I entitled to a daily transfusion from you?

[Beaver Tail]

29. Wrong person to ask

I am on the donor list. Kidney and bone marrow. I also donate blood

[mondo joe]

32. So do you think a donor-match should be forced to give you a kidney

against their will?

[Beaver Tail]

35. This is a conscious choice made by an adult so no...

An unborn child has no choice

[mondo joe]

37. No, there is no concensus. Whether to donate or not is the choice

of the donor.

Do you think a donor-match should be FORCED to donate a kidney against his or her wishes?

[Beaver Tail]

40. I already answerd this question

In the previous post

[mondo joe]

44. So a woman shouldn't be forced to donate a kidney, but her uterus can be

donated against her wishes?

[Beaver Tail]

54. WTF?

We are not talking about donating a Uterus, we are talking about a separate entity IN the Uterus.

[mondo joe]

55. But you would force a woman to donate her body for 9 months to

support the life of a fetus.

You might as well force her to donate blood or a kidney to save a life -- it's less invasive than forcing her to maintain a pregnancy.

[gollygee]

72. That entity needs use of that uterus to survive

and it is the woman's choice whether she wants to give use of her uterus.

If my child needed a kidney transplant, should I be obligated by law to give her one? Should someone else be obligated to give her one? Someone unrelated to her?

What about zygotes that are left over from in-vitro fertilization? Should women be forced to have those put in their uteruses so they can gestate? Since I have a competent womb, should I be forced to carry the IVF zygote that isn't mine and I don't want to save the zygote from death?

[Warren DeMontague]

84. The fact that you would offer this as some kind of a logical retort

indicates to me that you have no grasp whatsoever of the arguments involved.

I'm reminded of the Monty Python organ donor sketch:

"We're here for your liver"
"But I'm using it right now"

[Karenina]

26. I respect your beliefs.

Simple solution for you. Don't have an abortion.
And keep your nassy nose OUT of my crotch.

[slackmaster]

28. I don't like this topic either, for a different reason

I think aborting a fetus at a stage where it has some awareness and can feel pain is cruel and should be avoided except in the most unusual circumstances.

A fertilized egg has no nervous system, therefore it has no consciousness and cannot suffer. Somewhere between that stage and birth, the line must be drawn.

The key to fundamentalist thought on this is that fundamentalists believe in a soul, something that has no physical dimensions and cannot ever be proved to exist (or not exist). It's a matter of faith. People who believe fertilized eggs are a sacred form of life believe that zygotes have a soul. I don't, therefore have no problem with a woman deciding to abort one.

[Beaver Tail]

33. Stages

Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat eighteen days after conception.

Most abortions are not performed until the eighth week (56 days) of a pregnancy, or a little later.

Six weeks after conception signals from the fetal brain can be detected.

Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: Kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching. This is long before the mother will feel any sensations of movement.

A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week. A child at that age will move away from painful stimuli, the most painful of which would be the abortionist's instrument.

By about the fourteenth week, a baby's lungs are functioning and he or she will practice breathing.

Vocal cords are formed by the thirteenth week, and were it not for a lack of air, the baby could be heard to cry!

[slackmaster]

36. I doubt you would be happy moving the line to Day 17

As opposed to Month 4.

[ismnotwasm]

56. who are the assholes applying painful stimuli to an 8 week old fetus?

Approximately 25 percent of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. Often the mother is not aware of the pregnancy. Should we be doing studies on how to stop this travesty? Nature has a way of sometimes ending deformities not compatible with life or quality of life. Not always of course, and there are women who have chosen to bear a deformed or otherwise damaged child. Choose. Choice. Operative words here. Forcing a women to bear a child from a rape is henious. Romanticizing the life of an unborn fetus is a very tired method of attempting to control a woman's choices over her body.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Quit repeating anti-choice bullshit...

First up, an embryo is NOT a baby...

Secondly, those lame attempts by anti-choicers to portray first trimester embryos and foetuses as being thinking, feeling, sentient people is total bullshit peddled by the anti-choice crackpots...

So, like can you provide some backup to yr claims that don't come from anti-choice websites, but credible peer-reviewed medical sources?

Violet...

[Karenina]

74. ...the line must be drawn.

And the $64,000 question is... BY WHOM? :think:

[Kraklen]

31. Forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term IS rape.

Or the moral equivalent. IMHO.

[mondo joe]

34. Agreed. It is using a woman's body against her wishes.

And it is appalling.

[Beaver Tail]

38. And taking the life of a child is a better choice?

Simple as NO one wins and NO one is happy.

[Kraklen]

41. A blob of a couple dozen cells isn't a child.

I'll say again, forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term is the moral equivalent of rape.

[mondo joe]

42. No one is happy? I know women who are greatly relieved by termination

and live very happy lives.

I don't like to use vulgar terms, but whether it's your penis or a fetus you want to force on a woman's body it's all the same. If she doesn't want it there it must be prevented, or failing that, removed.

[Beaver Tail]

46. And I know others on the other side

who regret their decision

[mondo joe]

50. Sure, some people regret all sorts of decisions. Freedom means the

right to make choices, some of which you'll regret and some you won't.

What other choices would you prohibit people from making on the chance they may regret them?

[Kraklen]

51. Yes.

I'm sure you have many friends who regret abortions.

(where have I heard this before?)

[Gelliebeans]

60. I am sorry about the others

but just because they have regret doesn't mean they get to regulate my body at any time.

[The Magistrate]

43. Good Or Bad, Sir, The Point Is Simple

It is her choice, and not anyone else's....

[GeekMonkey]

47. Until you stop calling a fetus a child, you are missing the point

[Beaver Tail]

48. To me a fetus IS a child

[Kraklen]

52. It's a ridiculous comparison.

I don't see how people expect to be taken seriously when they call a microscopic blob of cells a child.

[Zenlitened]

79. Bingo. Absolutely right.

:applause:

[mondo joe]

53. Right. And would you force a woman to donate a kidney to save the

life of a child?

[gollygee]

66. There was another post in another thread asking the following question

if you are in a laboratory and there is a living 2-year-old child and a vial with 100 zygotes, and the laboratory catches on fire and you can only save the vial *or* the 2-year-old, which do you save?

[undeterred]

39. All I know is that if I HAD been raped at age 19

and if I had become pregnant and if there were no option for me to have an abortion it would have been absolutely devastating.

Would I have worn a sign on my forehead to explain to the world that I was carrying the child of a rape? I would have had to discuss the rape with everyone in my life.

Would I have dropped out of college? Would I have ever gone back? Would I have given away my own child? Would I have kept the child and remembered the rape every time I looked at him or her?

[Beaver Tail]

45. If you think I am not sympathetic that is not correct

I will not demean the feelings and the emotional damage but my love for giving all life a chance transcends everything. If I was in the position of saving a child at the risk of my own life I would not have to think twice about it.

[supernova]

49. And I'll never understand men

who think they know what's best for my body, then turn around and try to legislate that idiotic notion.

Bottom line: It's the pregnant woman's call, no one elses.

[Beaver Tail]

57. There will be no common ground on this.

I am sorry that I value life above all else.

And my WIFE agress with me

[supernova]

59. And I'm sorry you devalue the health and life of women

below everything else.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

65. Your belief means diddly squat when it doesn't line up with science.

A blastocyte is not the same thing as a child, no matter how often you say it.

[mondo joe]

68. I just wonder why you are willing to force women to donate their

bodies as incubator, but are not willing to force them to donate their blood or organs to save the lives of the born.

In both cases someone's life depends on the body of another, and since your stance is that LIFE matters above all else, why permit those people to refuse to save lives?

[supernova]

69. Hey, I struck a nerve

But do go on believing you can play God here and tell a woman that she will be forced to give birth against her will.

Go ahead, do tell me that I am nothing to you but your chattel to decide to do with as you will.

Do tell me I have no right to decide my life for myself.

Do tell me that you do indeed know best.

Do tell me I am a slave to your "beliefs"

The fact is your beliefs do indeed devalue women's life, health, and I'll add judgement and wisdom too.

P.S. You should know I am a Christian tell you these things.

[mondo joe]

61. Then why don't you support forced organ and blood donation to

save lives?

[The Magistrate]

64. My Wife, Sir

Often tells me she agrees with me, smiles, and goes on about her business. Everyone is happy: we have been at it a long time....

[GeekMonkey]

71. You value SOME life over others

You value a glob of cells over the life of the mother.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. You want common ground?

Support research into safe, effective birth control and full coverage. Support a single payer health care system and a liveable min. wage so poor, single women have economic options that aren't a joke in this country. Support comprehensive sex education with information and access to contraception.

Unfortunately, "pro-life" forces in this country are pathologically incapable of doing any of those things, in fact they are waging a war AGAINST birth control as we speak.

Or is throwing doctors and women in jail the only response you can come up with?

[undeterred]

58. But taking that stand will never cost you anything

because it cannot happen to you. If I had not had this experience I would probably have the same view that you do. I know its not something people like to think about. But rape is part of life, for women around the world and here in the US. There may be equality between the sexes around some issues, but there can never be around this one. In wartime and peacetime, women are sexually assaulted.

My life experience tells me that women need to be able to make this choice of carrying an unwanted pregancy or not- with whatever moral weight that bears- for themselves.

[knitter4democracy]

96. And how many times

have you heard someone talking about a girl having sex before marriage in a positive way? How many times have you heard her celebrated as a full human being with total choice and control over her body?

I know conservative Christians (having been one), and I know how much they love to gossip over coffee. One neverending topic is who's sleeping with whom and who's a tramp/slut/whore. When a girl gets pregnant, the whispers fly. Her reputation is destroyed by all those who say they respect life and love God.

I'm not saying you are a gossip, but what have you done to fight that problem? When have you defended a girl and her choices? When have you stood there and remided everyone there of the two greatest commandments? You say you will not demean feelings and emotional damage, but have you when you've stood silently by and allowed others to?

I find it interesting that Jesus reserved his judgement and anger for men in positions of power--not the midwives performing legal abortions under Jewish law, not the women trapped in bad situations, and not the men trying to just get from day to day.

[Princess Turandot]

76. I think examples like this should be brought up more often..

even in this thread, the topic quickly jumped to when a fetus is considered a 'person' and the 'my body, my rights' argument. Those discussions are all well & good but they are not visceral. Anti-abortionists talk about morality but mostly they talk about 'dead babies'. People who want abortion to remain legal should start asking anti-abortionists questions like 'do you want YOUR 14 year old sister to have to bear the child of Uncle Joe, who decided to rape her one night when she was staying over at his house?' Do you want YOUR 43 year old mother to have to bear the child of a low-life rapist?' Do you want to watch YOUR 30 year old wife come to full term and deliver the child of her rapist? (even if she plans to put the baby up for adoption.)'

Forcing a woman to carry a child to term which was conceived by rape forces her to relive the violence over and over again. I suspect that a child born and raised by his birth mother under such circumstances suffers consequences from the rape as well, even where the mother chooses to have and keep the baby. Being born as an unwanted child no matter through what circumstances is often no day at the beach. Forcing a 13 or 14 year old child to bear a child to term because she was abused, or even if she became pregnant through a combination of raging hormones and immature judgment is immoral in my view. Whatever she is carrying, depending on your personal perspective, she/he or it has no concious emotional awareness during the pregnancy. It does not know it is alive and thus it neither fears and suffers 'death' IMO. The entire onus is on the woman, who is likely to be scarred for life because of such a situation even if she does not deliver a baby. Insisting that she do so relegates the woman to being just an object. It also makes the person or politician who does so an accessory to the rape after the fact as far as I am concerned.

Personally, I think why the majority of Americans continue to believe that abortion must remain legal is exactly for reasons such as the above. They think about the tangible effects on the woman's and also the unwanted child's prospective lives. It's not based on legal reasoning, even if that argument is a sound one. It's a conclusion based on emotion and their own life experience. And as others have said here, they recognize that you cannot logically make abortion legal for only these terrible situations, since that makes no sense. So they support laws which allow abortions up until a defined point in the pregnancy, since that's the best option to date.

I think that the pro-choice message should be broadened to speak about these types of consequences more loudly and more emotionally than it seems to do now.

[Orangepeel]

62. I don't think the issue of rape should be an issue at all

forcing a woman to carry and deliver a baby conceived through rape would be horrific and is certainly not something I would advocate.

However, I don't understand what rape has to do with the debate about whether or not a woman has the legal right to terminate a pregnancy.

The issue of abortion rests on whether or not a fetus has human and constitutional rights. It makes no sense to say that a fetus conceived through rape has more rights than a fetus conceived in a drunken orgy.

[undeterred]

73. Sometimes the issue has been divided up in this way:

Abortion should be illegal EXCEPT in cases of rape and incest. One of my points in the original post was that this distinction puts the burden of proof on the victim to prove the circumstances of conception and due to the nature of rape it simply could not work.

I don't think that a fetus conceived under one set of circumstances differs from another in terms of a womans right to choose.

The anti-choice folks often frame this issue as though those who need abortions are selfish, careless, or promiscuous. My point in raising the rape issue is that unwanted pregancy can happen to a nun, a comatose hospital patient, to anyone capable of conceiving. It can happen to the wives and daughters and sisters involved in the fight to take away abortion rights... the same people who think that they are so moral and responsible that an unwanted pregancy could never happen to them.

Their outlook on abortion would look different if they were suddenly caught in these circumstances. Believe me, even the most rabid pro-life parents would suddenly see things very differently if their teenage daughter became pregnant because of a rape. And those that would force their teenager to go through a rape pregnancy for moral reasons... well, I wouldn't want them as parents.

[Orangepeel]

78. I don't disagree with what you are saying

I do disagree strongly with the position that some people take that "abortion should be illegal EXCEPT in cases of rape and incest" which I think is all about punishing people for having sex.

[GeekMonkey]

75. it makes no sense to give a fetus any rights

lets take care of the living first

[Orangepeel]

77. well, I don't think so either, which is why I'm pro-choice

but giving it rights when it was conceived accidentally but not when it was conceived brutally makes even less sense

[Warren DeMontague]

85. My favorite right-wing answer to the "rape exception":

'We cannot allow a so-called rape exception because women will lie and say they were raped to get an abortion.'

Doesn't any of these asshats stop to think that maybe if women are willing to go in front of a panel of strangers and lie and say they were raped (not to mention impale themselves on coat hangers) to not be pregnant, maybe we as a society should allow them to not be pregnant?

[salin]

86. Sadly

I represent one of those unreported rapes (a number of years ago).

Fortunately I did not become pregnant as a result of that rape. I don't think I could have made it through a full pregnancy if one had happened as a result of that rape.

[susanna]

87. Bless you for this.

I was the target of an attempted rape in my youth. He was unsuccessful, for the record. But what you point out is true; I may not have prosecuted because...get this...I thought he was a friend, up until that incident.

The defense lawyer would have brought out multiple instances where we were friends and maintained his client just "got the wrong impression." (He didn't. I was up front from the get go.)

I see what you are saying here, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[dubyahater]

90. amen sister

This is the sad and frightening reality that America must come to grips with. In the United States alone, there is probably a 2:1 ratio of rapes to people killed in Iraq. I'd like to see the actual statistics of daily rapes...

[NMMNG]

91. What's the big deal?

About 683,000 women in the US are raped annually. Roughly 5% (34,500) will become pregnant as a result. You act like those are big numbers. :sarcasm:

[donsu]

100. as I type this women around the world are being raped

rape hurts

rape can give you STDs and kill you with AIDs

rape is forever

why don't we hear men castigating men for raping women. how come men haven't raised the penalties for rape? where is the outrage of the men who don't rape?