Serious question(s) for Clark supporters...

[gully]

Not flame bait, just concerns that I'm hoping you can lay rest to, as he is the front runner right now.

Concern #1. After having a president who believes diplomacy is 'war' I am fearful at the prospect of having a person who's career has been founded on fighting wars, KWIM? I am seriously concerned about this.

Concern #2. Did he vote for Reagan? Some may blow this off as a non-issue, but my family stood in cheese lines when Reagan was in office. We suffered. This is a huge deal to me.


I have other concerns, but these are two major ones for me.

Thanks for the feedback. Hoping to keep this civil?! :)

[FDRLincoln]

1. I'll try

1) Clark has seen war, and doesn't like it. He was shot in Vietnam. He regards war as a last-resort option, only used when all other avenues have been exhausted. Most sane military people feel the same way. Clark is West Point trained, and is no doubt familiar with Clausewitz's dictum that "war is the extension of politics by other means." War is not something to be done for it's own sake. Remember, that former generals who became presidents like Eisenhower and Grant were NOT warmongers and in fact often held back from adopting aggressive stances in foreign policy crises, BECAUSE THEY KNEW WHAT WAR REALLY WAS.

2) Yes, he voted for Reagan. Lots of people did. My dad did...he later became a rabid Democrat. Although I wasn't old enough to vote, I would have voted for Reagan in 1980. But I'm a Democrat now. People can change their opinions and evolve over time.

Clark isn't an ideologue...he is a pragmatist. This is why I support Wesley Clark for President. I feel he is the best candidate to

1) crush Bush, and
2) bring our country together to fix the domestic mess Bush has left
3) bring the world together to fix the mess in Iraq that Bush has left.

Wesley Clark can truly be a uniter in my opinion.

[underpants]

2. Hell I voted for Reagan

Who didn't? Sorry it was my first vote and well there was no way he was going to lose so like kids do I went with the winner.

[Brian Sweat]

18. I didn't.

I was to young to vote in 1980, but I didn't like Reagan. I voted for Mondale in 1984.

[gully]

45. Shit, my husband voted for Reagan too...as I think about it...

so I guess I'll await Clarks addressing the issue as I'm sure it will come up. ;)

My dh is a flaming liberal now however. So he has also seen the light.

[Girlfriday]

4. Great post!

[Girlfriday]

3. Whenever a post starts with....

no flame bait, it usually is.

Clark is a soldier, period, like it or not. Get over it. The fact that he was attacked the day he declared tells me that the Repugs are afraid of him, and knows he can beat them. NEVER again can they use shrub boy in a flight suit and get away with it.

Yes, he may have voted for Reagan. So What? Lets not forget, Reagan himself was a flaming liberal before he ran for Gov.

Let's watch the debate, listen to his platform and then we can decide if he best represents us.

[gully]

5. Well, when I said 'no flame bait' I meant it...

I appreciate the first two responses however. Thank You.

By the way, I voted for Mondale. I consider him a great man, and I don't see how anyone could have voted for Reagan. That's my opinion. However, on the flip side, the Reagan vote will bid well with conservatives on the fence, perhaps?

I will watch the Clark campaign with great interest. May the best man/woman win!

Thanks to those of you who replied in a civil manner.

[CWebster]

7. Gully, you are not allowed to ask the questions!

That is flaming! When they hand us a winner we have go with it, because there is no way he is gonna lose. Content means nothing. Dig? ;-)

[iambe]

10. Oh, how pleasant

You're here to add some warm fuzzies.

:grouphug:

[gully]

13. Dig!

;)

[iambe]

6. I don't think the original post was flamebait

It is not surprising that some Democrats are suspicious of a candidate who is an ex-general and who has not always been a Democrat.

But I do think you have the best answer to the question.

"Let's watch the debate, listen to his platform and then we can decide if he best represents us."

[gully]

8. When is the debate?

Tonight?

[iambe]

9. This is on the DU calendar

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?z=cal&az=calendar&event_id=26&display=2&date_stamp=20030923

Unfortunately I don't get CNBC but I prefer to read transcripts anyway (if available).

[gully]

11. I never knew there was a calendar. Thanks!

:)

[bicentennial_baby]

12. Thoughts on Foreign Policy

"Secondly, we’ve always believed in, at least in the last half century, in international organizations. President Roosevelt, President Truman, were the founding fathers of the United Nations. They recognized, after World War II when we had fifty percent of the world’s gross domestic product, and we had a monopoly on nuclear weapons that even then, America wasn’t strong enough to “go it” alone and needed its allies.

And finally, we’ve found many times in our experience that it’s best to use force only as a last resort. Yes, we’ve got to have the strongest military in the world, and we’ve got it now and we should do everything we can to protect it, preserve it, and continue to strengthen it. Every bit that we need, we should provide. And yes, the President should have the right, as he always has had, if this country is threatened and we have to strike preemptively to prevent an attack on us, then certainly. We should do that. But beyond that, we should be very reluctant to use force. It has incredible, difficult and unintended consequences, which we are once again beginning to see as we deal with the situation in Iraq."

http://www.meetclark.com/faq/index.asp?faqid=42

"Let's put the hard feelings aside on both sides of the Atlantic and start working together, because the simple message is that America's greatest friends and greatest supporters are in Europe. Together, we are 700 million people, depending on where you draw the boundary with Eastern Europe. Together, we've got three of the five permanent votes in the U.N. Security Council. Together, we're producing half the world's , we're the greatest investors in each other's countries, we share a cultural heritage, we have mutual languages, we have business relations, and together we can move the world and shape it and make it safe for ourselves and our children. If we remain apart – driven by some faulty notion of multi-polarity or a sense of anger, betrayal, and "get even" spirit – we're going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, which brought fifty years of peace and prosperity and stability to the United States and Western Europe. Let's not give that up"

http://www.meetclark.com/faq/index.asp?faqid=14

"The solution to terrorism is not going to be found in bullets…It’s not going to be found in precision ordnance or targeted strikes. It’s really going to be found in changing the conditions. It’s going to be found in establishing a global safety net that starts with security and goes to economic development and political development and the kinds of modernization which let others enjoy the fruits of modernization that we as Americans enjoy… Our best protection is not going to build a wall around America. It’s not going to be to create a missile-defense impenetrable shield. It’s going to be, instead, to create a community of common values and shared responsibilities and shared interests in which nations and people get along. That really is ultimately the only protection.”"

http://www.meetclark.com/faq/index.asp?faqid=18

Hope that helps! :hi:

[gully]

14. That helps, thanks!

I'll read all the links with interest.
I'm out for now.

Peace

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. How great a sin was voting for Ronnie?

Let's look at how our most liberal state voted:

MASSACHUSETTS 1980
Reagan .. 1,057,631 (41.9%)
Carter ... 1,053,802 (41.7%)
Anderson .. 382,539 (15.2%) (Note: 3rd party candidate screws us again)

MASSACHUSETTS 1984
Reagan .. 1,310,936 (51.2%)
Carter ... 1,239,606 (48.7%)

So from a liberal's perspective, voting for Ron in 1980 was a pretty bad move. In 1984, a little less so.

[gully]

16. I'm from Minnesota

need I say more ;)

Democrats have won every presidential election here since 1976.

[dfong63]

17. Clark not only voted for Reagan, but praised him in a recent speech

... at a REPUBLICAN fund-raiser.
when did clark become a democrat

the Reagan years were practically synonymous with frequent military intervention, usually on the side of dictators, and a bloated military budget.

[gully]

43. Dup*

oops

[gully]

44. Dfong, your link didn't come through?

thanks!

[WilliamPitt]

19. I'll take a hack at this

Concern #1. After having a president who believes diplomacy is 'war' I am fearful at the prospect of having a person who's career has been founded on fighting wars, KWIM?

Clark has been, actually, quite eloquent about this, calling war the greatest failure. I would frankly rather have a former soldier who knows about the metal meeting the meat than these monkeyboy draft dogher types. Would it ben better to have Adlai Stevenson in there? Or Dean? Or Kerry? Or Kucinich? Very good question open to debate. I do not, however, think that we're trading one warmonger for another in a Bush-Clark swap.

Concern #2. Did he vote for Reagan?

Apparently he did, along with millions of other Americans. If you took a beating during the Reagan era, then I have nothing for you here, except to say that, hopefully, we can be accepting of people who have seen the damned light.

One last bit: Wesley Clark is the great white shark of this election. Love him or hate him, he's in the water now, and he's biting the shit out of the Bushies. See the LBN thread about his Bush UN speech response. The shark is swimming against our enemies, and this is nothing but a good thing imho.

[starscape]

20. agreed.

"Wesley Clark is the great white shark of this election. Love him or hate him, he's in the water now, and he's biting the shit out of the Bushies. See the LBN thread about his Bush UN speech response. The shark is swimming against our enemies, and this is nothing but a good thing imho."

Well put. I have a bad habit of checking out the right-wing pundits like Rush, etc every once in awhile, and right now, they are in a bit of a fervor. Rush is attacking Clark daily, in any way he can.. calling him a coward.. a left-wing radical.. anything that will fire up his audience. But to hear him get frustrated with his own callers, who are concerned about Clark... I have to say I take pleasure in that.

I've been reading about Clark for quite awhile, his views are not new - he is on record on many subjects as very progressive, and very level-headed - in line with Democratic ideals. So it mystifies me that people are making him out to be some big mystery who is just a puppet for the DNC or whatever. Give it a rest.. give him a chance. Or, if you don't want to, just stop shouting long enough to let others give him a fair chance.

Rant over.

-ss

[gully]

21. I will definately give him a chance, and watch his campaign with interest.

I really think he has an excellent chance at beating Bush if he's half the man I hear he is.

I will check out the LBN post Mr. Pitt. I agree he's a great person to get out our message. And, the media loves to talk about 'Clark.' He lend's credibility to us pinko anti-war folk. So how can that be a bad thing.

I must admit, I'm mourning the loss of Deans first place position as well. But, that doesn't mean I will pack up my toys and go home ;)

[WilliamPitt]

22. Don't count Dean-o out

Homeboy didn't rip to the front of the pack because he had a pocketful of magic beans.

[gully]

23. I spose your right bout that.

I had high hopes for Dean's campaign. The people versus George Bush and his corporate cronies. *sigh*

But, I am not counting him, or any of our top 4 out yet.

Thanks for taking time to address my concerns gang.

Peace,
Denise

[starscape]

24. thanks Gully, I'll do the same

Keeping an open mind, that is.

I support Clark, but if doesn't turn out to be the candidate I think he is, I will be right there with Dean. I don't agree with everything Dean says, but I definitely admire him and I was so excited to see someone like him emerge to really take Bush head-on.

That's why it doesn't do me any good to attack Dean, or Kerry, or really any of the others. I see a lot of good in their cadidacies, and a lot of things I agree with. I am so excited about this field. I'm such a cynic, though, I have this fear in the back of my mind that these guys (or their supporters, like we see here on DU) will tear each other up, and Lieberman will somehow slide in(!).. I would be appalled.

As you can tell, I don't like Lieberman ;)

[gully]

25. I'm with you Starscape...

anyone who calls Iraq a 'just war' is a bit looney as far as I'm concerned ;)

For me it's
Dean
Kerry
Clark
Lieberman

Of the top 4 that is...

:hi:

[starscape]

26. sounds fair

I sure wish Lieberman would drop off of the "short list."

For the record, I think my list would look like this:

Clark
Dean
Kucinich
Kerry


I really sympathize with Kucinich supporters. To be told, "well, your candidate may be right, but he's not viable.." that's a tough pill to swallow. Most of us would rather stand on our priniciples than scramble for a "winning team," so I respect that they are hanging in. Who knows, I might find myself in the same situation with Clark!

You never know what will happen.

cheers,
ss

[WilliamPitt]

27. STOP IT, THE BOTH OF YOU

This is a civil discussion on the candidates you two are having, and I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT. This is General Discussion, fa Chrissake? Where d'ya think y'are, a damn tea party? Where's the fightin' and the lyin' and the clawin' and the hatin' and the general forgetfulness about what brought us all here in the first place?

Don't let it happen again. You're both on Double Secret Probation now.

[gully]

28. Piss off!!!

you bastards! How's that ??? ;)

[WilliamPitt]

29. Eeeexxxxxxxxxcellent....

Much better.

:)

[starscape]

30. oh no!

I've turned into the anti-DUer!!!

Let me see if I can get back into form. Gully, I have only one thing left to say to you, sir. I have it on good authority that (INSERT YOUR CANDIDATE'S NAME HERE) molests collies!!!

[WilliamPitt]

33. And eats kittens

Never ever ever forget the 'eating kittens' bit.

[gully]

35. How Dare YOU!

Do either of you have a link to back up your BS claims?!

[WilliamPitt]

37. THAT'S how it's done

:loveya:

[gully]

39. Thanks for keeping things on the up and up Will Pitt...

What good are civil threads anyhow!

[gully]

34. Well I neva!

That's it, I'm leaving!

You've not only insulted my candidate but helpless collies, who can't speak for themselves!

[gully]

31. My list looks much like yours actually

I agree with you about Kucinich supporters, it's a shame that such a passionate man is polling at such low numbers...

I'd much rather see Kucinich then Lieberman, but it doens't look probable.

Cheers to you also.

Here's to ousting Bush* in 04!!! :toast:

[starscape]

32. I'll drink to that... heavily. Bush is toast... (n/t)

[union_maid]

36. I hated Reagan and I'm supporting Clark

1. A. This is the post-911 world. Clark seems like the right person to handle it without getting us into the kind of mess..well, that we're in right now. One person that I was talking to recently said that she thought that Bush, bad as he is, didn't have a clue what he was getting us into because, having no expertise in either military matters or foreign policy, he didn't know who to believe, so he chose not to believe the only important member of his administration with military experience or anyone in the military who wanted to send him a reality check from time to time and the rest, unfortunately is not so much history but our present reality. So, while I've never been huge fan of the military, the times seem to call for someone who knows his or her way around that world.

2.I never thought there'd be a president that was worse than Reagan, and yet, it turns out that's possible. Still, a lot of people voted for Reagan who I never would have thought of as Reagan types. I don't hold anyone's past affiliations against them, really. RFK worked for Joe McCarthy, after all. That's worse than voting for Reagan IMHO, but that's not who he was when we lost him in '68. Clark has articulated positions that are at least as liberal as the other candidates. I really think that's who he is.

Edited for continuity

[gully]

38. Thanks...Good point here.

"RFK worked for Joe McCarthy, after all."

Glad to have another Reagan hater on board ;)

[robbedvoter]

40. Here's how Clark looks to THEM:

> http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2687.html

[gully]

41. What a bunch of yahoos!

I can't believe someone with such juvenile writing skills has a job.

:puke:

It's interesting how even the Clark run is a Hilary conspiracy.
Anyhow, I understood your point that Clark scares the RW. For that reason ya gotta like the guy. :shrug:

*UHM, edited to spell juvenile correctly* :+

[starscape]

42. That's amazing! thanks for finding that link.

A conservative web site calls Clark a "nightmare for conservatives.."

I can't help but take pleasure in that.