7,300 uncounted American soldier deaths in Iraq war ???

[LilKim]

That's a huge number! Can anyone provide a name for just one of the 7,300 that's not listed on icasualties.org. Thanks!

[Internut]

1. ... the sound of crickets.

How dare you doubt something that the neo-Nazi web site is spreading around?

(for those who wonder what this is about: see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3894263&mesg_id=3894263 )

[spindoctor]

2. No, but what I can do is this

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20040106-0847.html

<SNIP>
DoD Identifies Army Casualty

The Department of Defense announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Spc. Luke P. Frist, 20, of West Lafayette, Ind., died of wounds on Jan. 5 at Brooke Army Medical Center, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Frist was part of a convoy that was struck with an improvised explosive device in Baghdad, Iraq. Frist was assigned to the 209th Quartermaster Company, U.S. Army Reserve, based in Lafayette, Ind.

This incident is under investigation.
</SNIP>

Spc. Frist is one of many that died outside Iraq and is counted.

Now can we PLEASE put this subject to rest?

[LilKim]

3. And Luke Frist is listed on icasualties.org

[spindoctor]

4. Exactly

So far all we have on 7,000 alleged missing deaths are an article on TBR"news" and some wild speculations.

Unless somebody finds some REAL evidence, this case belongs in the tinfoil section.

[wookie294]

5. 7,300 families think their soldier is part of the 1,700

Got WMD?

[LilKim]

7. One name, please

[wookie294]

9. One WMD please?

[LilKim]

15. I never said there were WMD, you said there

were an additional 7,300 dead. Supplying just one name is the bare least that's necessary to support your assertion.

[wookie294]

16. Yes, but the Pentagon said there were WMD

I think the Pentagon lies to us about the number of dead. I don't know if it's 7,300 dead soldiers or 3,000. But I'm convinced the Pentagon cannot be trusted on ANYTHING. Nobody should trust ANY "information" from the Pentagon. After the WMD fiasco, it has lost ALL credibility on EVERYTHING.

[LilKim]

20. Simply saying they're lieing about thousands of dead is

not sufficient. Evidence of your assertion is required. And so far all you've done is dodged.

[Selatius]

6. We would need empirical evidence of those 7,000 dead

Unless there is solid evidence that 7,000 soldiers are missing from the death count, this is speculation until the facts say otherwise. icasualties.org is quite good at what it does, and they've been able to match a name to every number that makes up the list of dead soldiers thus far, and as of yet, they have not come out agreeing with such a statement.

[wookie294]

8. We needed empirical evidence that WMD existed, too

But we never got that WMD evidence prior to the invasion. I don't believe ANYTHING from the Pentagon or the White House. Zarqawi doesn't exist, WMD doesn't exist, the Saddam-Qaeda link doesn't exist and Saddam didn't gas the Kurds. This entire war is a HUGE lie. You should remain skeptical and have huge doubts about any information that comes from the Pentagon.

[Selatius]

10. You should question even sources that speak counter to the Pentagon's

TBR news, I assume this is where this figure came from, is a right-wing Neo-Nazi revisionist hate site, and I'd seriously question their integrity on the matter as well. They have an agenda, and it isn't about revealing the facts but, rather, about forming an image that helps advance their own interests, which doesn't necessarily square away with that of the truth.

[wookie294]

13. So far, the info that speaks counter to the Pentagon has been true

Fuck TBR. It exists to make guys like you question people like me. TBR is not the only organization questioning the Pentagon. Many people have questioned the Pentagon's veracity.

[Selatius]

17. But you need EVIDENCE to BACK UP your CLAIM

I adopt a neutral position with respect to how many soldiers really died. icasualties.org lists 1700+ casualties. They've got names, faces on file matching up with each number reported dead. That's good. I buy that. That's hard evidence verifying that at least that many did die.

If there are more, then the investigation will find it out in the end, but until then, I should and will always remain agnostic on the issue. I'm not going to buy 7,000 or even 9,000 dead just because it goes contrary to the Pentagon's position.

I repeat that I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you about the number of dead soldiers. But what I am asking people is that if they are going to make such claims, then they should have hard evidence. I'm talking about DNA samples, name badges, pictures, their social security numbers, their bank account numbers, family members willing to vouch for said name, their death certificates, etc.

I'm talking about real evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" that that person really did die in Iraq.

[wookie294]

22. Why? ''Evidence'' is now considered ''liberal''

I am asking people is that if they are going to make such claims, then they should have hard evidence.

America didn't need hard evidence of WMD in 2003. After the WMD disaster, it is obvious that America and its minions in the Pentagon have decided that "hard evidence" is no longer necessary to justify policy. Since that is the case, I will never trust anything that comes from the Pentagon. I am absolutely convinced that nearly EVERYTHING coming from the Pentagon is a TOTAL lie.

[Selatius]

25. You just MISSED the point of my post

I am not going to automatically believe any source outside the Pentagon or even the Pentagon itself with respect to the number of Americans killed unless there is verifiable evidence to back up such claims. icasualties.org serves a purpose, in that case. It has and will continue to verify the casualties as long as the war rages.

The same BURDEN OF PROOF that lies on the Pentagon also lies on the shoulders of websites such as TBRNews. If they have evidence of an extra 7,000 or even 10,000 dead who have gone missing, then we need the names of each and every one of those to back up the number.

[LilKim]

12. How does using the same faulty reasoning as BushCo

"Iraq has WMD but we can't prove it" <--> "7,300 uncounted dead but not a single name" give this speculation any credibility? Again, if 7,300 aren't on the lists, name just one.

[wookie294]

14. When there is one lie, there are other lies

That's human nature.

[LilKim]

18. If there are 7,300 lies regarding military deaths

then overturn just one with a name.

[LynnTheDem]

11. In fact, we've come out AGAINST such a statement .

Contrary to some posters' assertions, we at the ICCC do not simply list names from the Centcom/DoD releases.

We SEARCH for soldiers' deaths, and then we add the deaths to our public number of deaths WHEN we have CONFIRMATION, preferably official confirmation from Centcom and/or DoD death notices.

IF we have good, solid, credible confirmation of deaths and NO Centcom/DOD releases, we go ahead and add the death(s) to our site. We then chase Centcom/DoD for the official releases.

We do it this way because otherwise ANYONE could say X number of troops were killed today; ANYONE could make up names and claim they're dead US troops.

1. We SEARCH for deaths; blogs, obits, world-wide media.

2. We CONFIRM those deaths by each soldier's name.

3. We add the deaths to the ICCC count.

4. Any deaths confirmed and added without a Centcom/DoD official notice, we chase after Centcom/DoD.

We do NOT sit around and simply wait for Centcom or DoD to release death notices and add them up.

[Swamp Rat]

19. Thank you LynnTheDem. n/t

[LynnTheDem]

24. You're welcome, Swamp Rat.

:hug:

[wookie294]

21. So, you wait for confirmation from the Pentagon

we at the ICCC do not simply list names from the Centcom/DoD releases .... we add the deaths to our public number of deaths WHEN we have CONFIRMATION, preferably official confirmation from Centcom and/or DoD death notices."

In other words, you wait for confirmation from the Pentagon, a source that cannot (and must not) be trusted.

[LynnTheDem]

23. No, exactly as I posted;

We SEARCH for soldiers' deaths, and then we add the deaths to our public number of deaths WHEN we have CONFIRMATION, preferably official confirmation from Centcom and/or DoD death notices.

IF we have good, solid, credible confirmation of deaths and NO Centcom/DOD releases, we go ahead and add the death(s) to our site. We then chase Centcom/DoD for the official releases.

We do it this way because otherwise ANYONE could say X number of troops were killed today; ANYONE could make up names and claim they're dead US troops.

1. We SEARCH for deaths; blogs, obits, world-wide media.

2. We CONFIRM those deaths by each soldier's name.

3. We add the deaths to the ICCC count.

4. Any deaths confirmed and added without a Centcom/DoD official notice, we chase after Centcom/DoD.

We do NOT sit around and simply wait for Centcom or DoD to release death notices and add them up.

[wookie294]

26. Unfortunately, it's impossible for you to have credible evidence

Reporters in Iraq are hiding in their hotels, human rights workers are avoiding Iraq, soldiers don't know what's going on 10 miles from their posts and the resistance controls most of Iraq. Nobody outside of Iraq has a true picture of the reality inside Iraq. But the Pentagon knows who is missing or dead amongst its battalions and I'm certain they are low-balling the KIA number for the American public.

[LynnTheDem]

27. You're entitled to your own opinion. It's incorrect, but it's all yours.

And meanwhile, I'll continue on with my 8+ hours/day, 7 days/week work researching soldiers' deaths and reporting them on the ICCC.

[wookie294]

28. That's true, Lynn

I've read many of your posts and they are great! We agree on most things. Take care!

[LynnTheDem]

29. Thanks, wookie!

I agree...we do agree on most things. :D

You take care too!

:hug:

[DemonFighterLives]

32. I tend to agree with you wookie

I also agree with Lynn the dem on many things. I just don't think that centcom/pentagon will ever come clean. I could be wrong too.

All I really know is the war has taken TOO MANY LIVES!
:nuke:

[Crunchy Frog]

30. You guys do wonderful work at that site.

I check it out everyday. It's the most accurate, well documented, and comprehensive source available. Thank you so much for all that work on behalf of our soldiers.

[DemonFighterLives]

31. The question is flamebait

We've already had a few threads like this locked. I don't believe there are 7,000 dead Americans as well as I don't believe it is only 1,700. The truth is too hard to get and may never be gotten especially from the warmongers in this administration.

[Moderator]

33. Lock

Flamebait
This has been posted and debunked many times