Clark and America's Search for Masculinity

[OrdinaryTa]

American-style manliness is increasingly based on discredited, sexist ideas. We pound the hell out of small, weak nations to assert masculinity. But dropping bombs on helpless civilians requires only brutishness, which is not a virtue and is not in short supply.

Wes Clark, in contention for warrior chief, wasn't butch enough for David Hackworth. Hackworth called him the Perfumed Prince, then backed away from it. Clark's big selling point is how good he looks compared to George Bush, but Bush's awkward struggles to appear manly have frequently been ludicrous.

The President is actually the politician-in-chief, not the embodiment of the nation's collective masculine ideal. But DU posts supporting candidates occasionally contain astonishing quotes like the following:

"... people are subconsciously struck by how a General that commands great armies of the earth could also be a romantic with a boyish ambling gait, wearing extra big designer suits, a lopsided cornball grin, and a charming carefreeness about his stands on the issues. People that are not on the bandwagon do not know what they do as they hurl rotten tomatoes at the beautiful dazzling General, but once they get on board, the stars in there eyes tell all ... "

You'd think we were looking for a lover, not a political leader. Europeans thought Americans were zany for impeaching Clinton over marital infidelity, but the underlying psychological themes persist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=387808&mesg_id=388326&page=

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. YHBT. YHL. HAND.

My hat is off to you, A-Schwarzenegger!

DTH

[iambe]

2. Oh my god. You are citing A-Schwarzeneger

as THE source to prove your theory. That is the funniest goddamned thing I have seen all day.

A) Don't vote for Clark.
B) Get a life.

[JVS]

3. Hey, I resent having my masculinity coopted by the Clark campaign.

Being president is not about being Butch. It is about being able to enact ideas.

[WoodrowFan]

19. Yeah!

and a big wee-wee is a bonus! (Sorry, I can't take a thread quoting A-Swart's post seriously, I think the original wa smeant as a joke)

[Julien Sorel]

25. If you allow

your masculinity to be defined by a political campaign... well, I'm sure the net nannies here would come after me if I properly finished the thought.

[JVS]

28. I don't

But if Clark supporters start some kind of Real men vote for Clark thing (which I could easily see happening) I will be disgusted.

[JohnKleeb]

65. Thats what the GOP does

and I would be disgusted too. I am used to this however,

[JVS]

68. Good to see you are back in action John

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. While I will give you some agreement on the yearning for a John Wayne

to save us (which appears to be the mentality of many Americans) it isn't as though Clark invented that one.

Furthermore, if one is GOING to have wars, then one is going to create ways to win them that are unsavory.

I really think that there is little to NO evidence that Clark will start as many wars or foster as much instability worldwide as the current administration.

If you have any evidence that suggests he will, feel free to offer it up.

[noiretextatique]

7. let's nominate a butch WOMAN for president!!!!

that way, we can cover all the bases :7

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Don't look at me......

I have a bathroom full of lipstick :D

[WoodrowFan]

18. You're a Crossdresser????

:spank:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Worse honey

I'm a lesbian :scared:

[WoodrowFan]

21. cool

I've sen lots of movies with lesbian in the title! (teasing) :spank:

[noiretextatique]

31. LOL...damn that lipstick!

:*

[CWebster]

5. Whoa

You are gonna get the ignore button for that. That's the way they deal with any little stains and irksome doubts.

Well, they can ignore it all then, and we can tell it like it is without their running to Mommy. Mommy Mommy, Mr Meanie is saying mean things about the master General, Sir.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

8. Why...

surely that must be a Clark supporter type of real man dude?

[iambe]

17. I'm a woman, just like you, believe it or not.

I'm sorry, the grade school quality of your posts got the better of me. I apologize for the crudeness of the comment, although I doubt anyone would believe me. Frankly, I was hoping to be banned from DU. It would probably make me a better person. Yet here's my last post.

[CWebster]

30. You know what, I don't like your man

and I don't like the way the red carpet is being rolled out for him like he is some royal political pop star. I didn't start out disliking him, in fact months ago I commented that he was "easy on the eyes", but I have learned to hate him and all he represents--the militarism of our culture, the exploitation of pop icons and consumerism. He is on the latest cover of Newsweek before he is even familiar with his own positions on the issues(that is if he has any sincere positions), while the other candidates have spent their entire careers studying the issues and working for the American people and they can't get anyone to listen. And then in walks this slick interloper, with cable news recognition and everyone abandons the issues and races to coronate the next priviliged Insider 'cause he can beat bush. Almost all of them has the potential to beat Bush as the day draws nearer, so why should we buy this bill of goods that doesn't offer a real Democratic hope for our country--just another centrist front.

I resent it, yes, but that doesn't mean that I encourage you to leave. Don't worry, I can take what you throw at me, my only problem is my work isn't getting done and I have a tight deadline this week.

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. cyber salute

i totally agree.

[JVS]

47. I dislike that usurper as well.

[janekat]

48. thank you for writing a substantial post ....

Please keep that up... This is much more of a contribution to the topic and to the forum than the usual diatribe.

Thank you.

[StopTheMorans]

49. I'll second that

why don't we hear some goddamned issues first before we get all starry-eyed for the General? He's just a man, and I'm not voting for him until he PROVES in the debates that he's more than an empty-suit (and don't go throwing his resume at me, I've seen it, and I want to see where he stands TODAY, and what he'll do for us TOMORROW).

[zeemike]

66. Well said

I could not say it better

[RummyTheDummy]

72. Are you talking about Dean?

Because I swear I saw the same thing over the summer. Lots of good ink. Cover of time. Lot of attention to his online fundraising accomplishments etc.

[noiretextatique]

34. it seems you got your wish...congrats!

and good riddance :puke:

[janekat]

46. was their post that bad?

I didn't actually get a chance to read the message BEFORE it was deleted so the correct move may have been made. I - along with just about everyone else on the forum am getting really tired of the other party. I know I've "blasted" the offender a few times.

I'm concerned that this other party may have egged the "banee" on and purposefully caused them to get banned. I fear that this could happen to me or to many other NORMALLY "diplomatic" members of this forum.

Not having read the offending post, however, I will give this move the benefit of the doubt.

[bloom]

50. It was THAT bad...n/t

[CWebster]

51. Sorry you feel that way

but that is the heat your candidate can expect--that is, if he doesn't get the hands off treatment. But you Clark supporters, many of you new to this board, have no right to dictate to the rest of us and demand that we not raise issues or even criticize or even grill your favorite. I know how you feel, I snapped at Mairead for her cartoon this morning, but I have a whole lotta more respect for where Mairead is coming from, her extensive knowledge on the issues and the circumstance driving her anger than I do for Clarkie newbies with their political naivete and insistant manner.

[loudsue]

79. It was a wish...It went like this....

The poster wrote:

"I'm a woman, just like you, believe it or not.


I'm sorry, the grade school quality of your posts got the better of me. I apologize for the crudeness of the comment, although I doubt anyone would believe me. Frankly, I was hoping to be banned from DU. It would probably make me a better person. Yet here's my last post."



:shrug: :hi: Buh-bye. :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Wow dreams really do come true!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. From your own profile:

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.(substitute vulgarity)

[JVS]

11. Dead animals work the best though

[sfecap]

12. You ought to be banned for this post.

Please go back to FR.

[janekat]

22. how can we go about alerting the moderators to this?

I agree with you. Look at the "rules of this board" She's broken dozens of them:

WHO IS WELCOME ON DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, AND WHO IS NOT
We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.
People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, antisocial behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.

PERSONAL ATTACKS, CIVILITY, AND RESPECT
The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, many of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
Please note that, strictly speaking, sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not considered personal attacks. However, they are often inflammatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board.

If you are the type of person who just can't get along with other people, and if you seem to repeatedly cause trouble, eventually we will decide that your presence is a disruption and we will ban you. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.

[OrdinaryTa]

26. Left Hand Corner

In the lower left hand corner is the "alert" button. Use it any time you see a post that's as flagrant as that one was.

[janekat]

37. thanks....

[WoodrowFan]

13. I thought that was Dean supporters

The only person I've seen cry that they wanted to quit over bashing of their candidate was a Dean supporter. But to be fair, t's not just them. It's the thin-skinned support of every candidate here, Dean, Clark, Edwards, Kerry, etc. They all have true-believers who blow a gasket now and then. What annoys me is the recycling of RW talking points (Kosovo! Waco!) that spread Rove's lies. It seems to be throw at Clark the most IMHO.

[JVS]

10. In all fairness that thread has been alleged to be comedic spoof

This whole situation is getting a little bit like that scene in simpsons:

Slacker A: Here's that guy who gets shot in the stomach with a cannon.
Slacker B: oh, he's cool.
S.A: dude, are you being sarcastic?
S.B: I don't even know anymore.

[WilliamPitt]

54. Alleged?

Read it. Classic humor happening there...and now a primary source. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

[JVS]

55. I can tell that it is funny

But Arnold is not coming 100% clear on where he is coming from. It is all somewhat muddled, kind of like all of DU

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. No nothing all somewhat muddled.

I am behind Commander General Westley Clarke 10000%.
I don't care what anybody says about him. Even if
his mother came out and said he was a hobo and a
cheapskate and a near do well. I was for Dean for
a little while until I saw him on the Emmys fidgeting
around trying to smile. Dean should have a few drinks
before he goes on TV to loose him up like I am going
to have tomorrow night before the debate about California.

[JVS]

69. Are you certain of that?

People who are 10000% behind a candidate generally spell that candidate's name correctly. Even Kucinich supporters do that, which some people think would be difficult. Yet you say "I am behind Commander General Westley Clarke 10000%." Between that mistake, your frequent reference to the "Clark Bandwagon" and th humorous and Chris Matthews like man-crush you appeared to have for Clark in the original thread, I have a hard time believing that you really support Clark.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

75. It is not the netiquette to correct bad spelling.

As far as man crush I have said things about
crushing different sort of things with my
buttocks but only as a collegial type of saying.
As far as bandwagon I don't even know what a
bandwagon is for sure. I think it is a large
wagon that a band rides to a stadium on. But so
what? What is wrong with that? There is nothing
wrong with a bandwagon unless you are too late to
get on and it leaves you in the dust holding you
foelorn tuba. As far as what you have a hard
believing about what I believe I believe that is
why they call it faith.

[JVS]

77. I'm sorry, just pointing out one of numerous strange things

that make it difficult for me to believe that you are actually on that Clark Bandwagon. I have no faith in you.

[Rowdyboy]

14. Ordinary TA

Perhaps you might want to check out Colonel Hackworth's website...

www.hackworth.com

He has repudiated his "perfumed prince" remark and basically endorsed Wesley.

I don't mind you being against Clark, just don't cite discredited sources.

[OrdinaryTa]

23. Underlying Psychological Theme

My post acknowledges that Hackworth backed away from his earlier remark. But that has the effect of admitting that he blurted out something he shouldn't have said.

Significantly, another lengthy Clark thread discussed his allure, which is a word out of a teen fan magazine.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. The Term "Allure" Was Used by an Anti-Clark Person

And IMO the entire post read like condescending tripe.

DTH

[Julien Sorel]

33. You are mis-representing.

First, Hackworth didn't 'back away' from his comments; he repudiated them entirely. There's a big difference. Second, the thread you mentioned was started by one of the bigger Dean fanboys around who is furious at Clark for stealing Dean's thunder. A real objective source for your 'discussion' of Clark's 'allure.' Clark supporters themselves don't habitually use language like that, only detractors. If you hate Clark, great. Just use more honest examples in your attacks. Quoting the class clown, Clark haters, and a guy who has since changed his mind isn't the way to make a quality argument.

[OrdinaryTa]

38. Clark's Beauty Pics

Much effort has gone into Clark's beauty pics, so I don't think the word allure is completely off the mark. This trend has been going on for a while. Nixon was considered too jowly to be elected, losing the presidency to the glamorous John F. Kennedy.

Surely, we once thought, a mere movie actor couldn't be elected president. He'd have to speak to the issues. It turns out that we're not looking for a President, we're looking for a leading man, and he'd better be romantic and potent.

Someone on another thread asked Clark's views on a number of issues, and the answer is We don't know. But we sure know what he looks like! < sigh >

Edit: typo

[JVS]

41. Do you mean this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=389712

Where I am sad to say, my questions have gone unanswered!

[janekat]

43. Let's face it - Charisma is an important factor - you can't win a

Presidential election without it.

[WoodrowFan]

16. New Poll?

Let's settle this once and for all, a poll comparing penis size between Clark and Dean supporters. Winner gets to taunt the lone Lieberman supporter.

[bloom]

27. You assume we're all men?!?

I think the orignal poster is on to something with his "search for Masculinity" idea.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

24. I am on board with Clark. I don't care what namby-pamby euros think.

I am solid in my masculinity with Clark. Solid as a downed 12-pack watching NASCAR.

European men can continue to wear dresses and dance among flutes. It doesn't matter, the effete Euros can't vote for General Clark anyway. Their prissy manner would not allow them to vote for a real General in any case.

[RichM]

32. Someone please tell me: is the above post satire, or not?

My guess is that it's serious! :scared:

[JVS]

35. Everything is floating and undefined

Kind of like Clark's views on the issues!

[noiretextatique]

36. can't be serious...it is satire...i'm sure

at least i hope it is. yeah...i'm sure it is :D

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

39. I can't tell whose serious and who's not in this thread! But it's funny!

There IS something very weird in the American psyche having to do with this whole issue. I have been puzzling about this since the whole Clinton's penis obssession and then the 2000 election, when I heard Chris Matthews screaming over and over, "Whose gonna be the daddy?" And people take the guy seriously!

Then after that flight suit thing, I have really started wondering if some of these weirdos have some kind of extreme daddy complex. Whatever they have, how in the world does Bush fulfill it for them? What is going on in people's heads?

[OrdinaryTa]

42. The President's Main Squeeze

In other countries people don't care about the president's sex life, but Americans want to know all about it. How many first ladies can you name? In other countries this is unheard of.

We even know about the first ladies of other countries! Remember Raisa Gorbachev? Putin's an exception. But we have George's assurance that Putin's trustworthy. Bush looked into his eyes ...

Here's a hypothetical for you ... suppose it got out that one of the candidates was a closet queen. That would be a deal killer, no questions asked! Just imagine if Monica Lewinsky had been a guy.

[janekat]

52. I think it comes from men who are unsure of their masculinity....

There's quite a few of them out there. They feel that this may make them appear to be more "manly."

[Tinoire]

56. I'm not so sure n/t

[janekat]

58. It's a joke - look at his name "Half Man" half "biscuit"

"Biscuit Bandit" is another name for a gay man. Ms. biscuit is a drag queen. A biscuit is something that may be placed in a certain part of one's anatomy for personal/mutual gratification (to put it nicely).

http://www.the-house-of-love.org/gaymennames.html
http://www.cruise-travelers.com/main/CTDivas.htm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. LOL De Gaulle was actually a cross dressing female, eh?

[WilliamPitt]

53. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

It just gets better and better!!!!

See:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=218016&mesg_id=218016&page=

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee hee hee hee hee hee hee...

[OKNancy]

57. This is silly pychobabble

I like Clark for what he says. I didn't even notice that much if he was masculine or not ( he's a little short for me ).

The one thing that really grabbed(no pun)me was when he said that this nation was founded by people of the Enlightenment. They used reason. Then I decided to read more about him. For universal health care, pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, good on the environment and renewable energy, unilateralist...and on and on.

I like smart people. I like someone who can speak Russian, French, Spanish and unlike Bush, he can speak English too. I like that he is highly regarded in Europe. That could go a long way to soothe our foreign relations ( no pun).

I like how he gets on Bushes tail ( no pun) Called this Whitehouse like Nixon. I like it because he says to ask questions about 9-11.

And today I read that he said Limbaugh was full of shit. I like a man who talks dirty....oops -- didn't mean that.

[noiretextatique]

59. not so silly, really...explain the gender gap in voting?

nothing really new in this post. the appeal to masculinity seems to work well, even for wimps like bush.

[OrdinaryTa]

60. Discredited Sexist Ideas

Discredited sexist ideas are the reason that women may not fly combat aircraft. This exclusion has no purpose other than to shore up the crumbling masculinity of America's military.

Of course you can call this psychobabble; in the early days of feminism, objections raised to the exclusion of women were called worse things than that. It's significant, too, that this late in America's history we still don't see women in serious contention for the Presidency. Why is that? Well, women aren't masculine!

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrdinaryTa]

71. Fear of Ridicule

I was out there in 1967 onward busting my butt and being ridiculed

If your commitment to feminism goes back to 1967, you're certainly aware that fear of ridicule shouldn't stop anybody. One of the important ways the patriarchy retains power is to control discourse so that any challenge to the established order seems ludicrous. It was true in 1967; it is true today.

You recall that when Shirley Chisholm ran for president in 1972 she was ridiculed. Last night Dan Rather dismissed another black woman's bid for the presidency, calling it an "ego trip". Nothing much has changed in 30 years, has it?

I'd encourage you to use more gender-neutral analogies in your writing. In your earlier post, speaking about Wesley Clark, you wrote: I like how he gets on Bushes tail. If I understand your analogy here, you are referring to the way a male animal mounts another to show dominance. This relates to my point that we are electing a head of government, not necessarily a dominant male.

Of course when I point out that masculinist rhetoric stacks the deck in favor of male candidates, I expect to be ridiculed - that's the nature of the struggle. If we were not deterred by ridicule in 1967, we should not be deterred by ridicule now either.

[OKNancy]

74. You are humor impaired or maybe

I'm bad at humor. Those remarks followed by (no pun) were on purpose.

[OrdinaryTa]

78. Humor Impairment

I did a quick web-search on "patriarchy" and "ridicule" and was not surprised that there are close to 3,000 hits. Humor impairment is a standard accusation which was no doubt used against you numerous times. Here's one site that discusses it explicitly:

" ... Patriarchy is one of the deepest and oldest forms of oppression in the world today. It is so deep that we are discouraged from even naming it. You can say you are against apartheid without offending progressive white people. But start talking about the patriarchy and you will run into howls of protest and ridicule from otherwise progressive men. Nonetheless, patriarchy needs to be addressed by any truly revolutionary theory. In fact, the failure to address patriarchy is one of the great shortcomings of Marxism.

Ecofeminism points out that there is a parallel between the way this patriarchal society treats nature and the way it treats women. This is reflected in such expressions as "virgin redwoods" and "rape of the Earth". More important, however, ecofeminism holds that one of the reasons for the destruction of the Earth is that only the "masculine" traits of conquering and dominance are valued by this society, while the "feminine" traits of nurturing and life-giving are devalued and suppressed. Both men and women, by the way, possess both masculine and feminine traits. But feminine behaviour is held in lower esteem no matter who is exhibiting it ..."

(emphasis added)

http://www.thrall.orcon.net.nz/textsrevecology.html

[A-Schwarzenegger]

61. O.M.G.

My apologize, OrdinaryTa. I was high on
some bad barbercue sauce. I agree with
everything you said especially that we are
looking for a lover not a political leader.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. ROFLMAOPIMP!!!!

[phegger]

64. try this:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0338/goldstein.php

kind of an interesting take


-ph B-)

[screaming_meme]

70. New Clark supporter checking in

He's our man.

[janekat]

73. welcome....

to the club. Be prepared to be bashed though....

[noiretextatique]

76. bashing is a term that i see here far too frequently

or my tastes.