My first Gay Pride parade (Portland yesterday)

[Danieljay]

I'm proud to say, that as a heterosexual male I attended my first ever Gay Pride parade in Portland Oregon yesterday. Moving from the midwest just two years ago (the land of Fred Phelps) I'm pleased and proud to live in a city that can hold a gay pride parade without the threat of massive protests and perhaps violence. Seeing the floats, the support of many faith communities who participated, the support of legislators, and the support of the community was wonderful! Everyday people celebrating "Gay Pride".

Now, I've always considered myself a progressive, and am very open to diversity of lifestyles and free expression. That being said, I have to say that I had some very mixed feelings about the Gay Pride Parade yesterday. With the risk of being majorly flamed...I have to say this:

At times, I wasn't sure whether or not I was at a Gay Pride parade or a Sexual Fetish parade.

Now, before anyone goes completely defensive and begins flaming me, hear me out. Time and again I hear the gay community telling me that being gay isn't about sex and is definitely not a sexual "fetish". Now granted, sex happens with gay people just as it does with people who aren't gay. Also, sexual fetishes are just as common among heterosexuals as those who are gay. But why the open display of sexual fetishes during the parade?

Some examples included BDSM and S/M displays, D/s (Dominatrixes and their subs wearing fetish clothing), Doms in leather cracking whips toward their subs, topless women shaking their breasts at the spectators, Drag queens and gender FETISHISTS, not to mention the behavior of some of the spectators (seeing a guy simulating oral sex on his friend on the sidewalk, perhaps just an isolated incident but I witnessed lots of references to sex..sex...sex among participants AND spectators). I know being gay is not just about sex..but WHY all the sexual connotation?

Let me say that I'm all for a woman's right to go topless, but running up to a spectator and shaking their breats in their face goes beyond that.

Let me also say that I fully support transgendered persons and the variety of expressions how that shows up in the world.

My question again goes back to this: Why the mix of sexual fetish play with the Gay Pride theme. Everyday people? Gays, lesbians, and transgendered are definitely every day people. Fetishists running through the streets are not. There is a time and a place for that and let me add that I completely support that right also.

Again, I fully support equal rights (including marriage) for gays, lesbians, and transgendered persons. I have many good friends who are gay, lesbian, and transgendered. I don't however think they are very well represented as "everyday people" by the sexual displays and innuendos at the Gay Pride Parade. I think that these types of displays do a huge dis-service to the gay community at large. And in a media driven world that reports the extreme, the sexual fetish displays don't portray the gay, lesbian, and transgender community as "Everyday People".

Thanks for letting me share.

[gratuitous]

1. I won't presume to answer your questions

But I know that for a lot of g/l/b/t/i folks, the opportunity to be fully themselves in public is a tremendous release, and many of them take advantage of the liberating atmosphere.

That being said, I'm glad you made the parade. It was a spectacular day for it, although I got a rather nasty sunburn on my waving arm. I was driving the Peace Church of the Brethren pickup.

[Occulus]

2. Oh, I understand completely what you're saying

Some of the things in the pride parades simply don't belong in a parade. I think, to some people, this only reinforces their distaste, and underscores for them what's "wrong" with gay people in general.

I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment, but.... at the same time.... I think some of the participants may unintentionally be driving away some people who then go on to think all gay people are "like that".

[nickinSTL]

3. i know a number of transgendered people in my area

who won't go anywhere near the Pride event, for exactly the reasons you mention.

Though I don't recall it ever being quite as sexual as you describe, that may just be because we're IN the midwest :D

Nevertheless, the fetishist aspect does turn some people off.

[swag]

4. Well, thanks for coming out to the parade. It was a beautiful day for it

and even though I missed meeting DU's own gratuitous, I had a great time (as I do every year).

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the day as much as I did.

on edit: Gratuitous, I yelled your name as your group passed, but I was right in front of Embers where the reviewing stand was blaring.

[gratuitous]

6. Yeah, where the heck were you?

Kidding! I was concentrating so hard on keeping it tight, keeping it safe, I probably would have missed someone shouting through the window with a bullhorn. I was driving an unfamiliar pickup truck, and the crowds were overflowing the sidewalks in several areas.

:hi:

[Danieljay]

7. I enjoyed the parade...

but just left with a lot of mixed feelings. Perhaps thats a good thing.

[Misunderestimator]

5. Holy Shit.

And that's about all I can say at the moment. :mad:

(On edit... I will say that your post literally OOZES exaggeration. I've been to many gay pride parades, and this excessive amount of sexual fetish display you describe sounds extremely far-fetched. There is a small element in EVERY community, straight and gay, that fit that mold... your post seems ever-so-under-the-radar bigoted to me.)

[Danieljay]

13. I expected that accusation...its common..so let me say

there were MANY good things about the parade. I saw at least 4 faith communities represented, educational groups, gay and lesbian youth groups, HIV awareness, etc. The gay firemen thing was great, and i was moved by the float with the CHER song if we could turn back time. Gay rights have come a long way, and have a long way to go, and I still believe there is a better time and place for the fetish ball.

[Misunderestimator]

14. Yes, but that is not the way you described it at all.

And I would refer you to Sui Generis' post #11 below which answers yours much more eloquently than my current level of annoyance allows me.

[gratuitous]

24. I remember my first time . . .

Uhm, maybe I want to change the subject line. Oh well, folks will click and be disappointed.

But I think danieljay is giving us a fairly honest assessment, and comports with my own first experience with seeing all sorts of stuff I'd only heard or read about. I know that for me there was a lot of "Did I just see what I thought I saw" kind of gawping. I reckon that my initial impressions were that a small part of the parade was much larger as well, due to the attention I paid to the new and the novel (and let's admit it, the prurient).

Having attended a dozen or more events, though, I've gotten quite a bit more accustomed to the proceedings. Case in point: Yesterday, while prepping our vehicle for the parade, a tall young man approached and asked for directions to where the group he was marching with might be located. I told him what number our entry was, considered where his entry might be, and pointed him in the right direction. It was only after he walked off that Mrs. gratuitous mentioned that the young man wasn't wearing any pants below his suit coat, dress shirt and tie -- and I hadn't noticed at all!

[sui generis]

25. me too, but just bare-ly

:blush:

who knew that loincloths would go out of fashion so quickly?

[MsTryska]

8. i actually take issue with this statement:

Gays, lesbians, and transgendered are definitely every day people. Fetishists running through the streets are not.



On the contrary i would say Fetishists are every day people. meaning all sorts of folks are rather extreme fetishists, altho they are unable to talk about it. the recent rash of bizarre sexuality coming out of the Republican world should tell you that.



and as a straight female who went to her first pride last year, i have to say i enjoyed myself. At one point this float went buy with a whole bunch of really cute looking guys on it. then i realized the really cute boys were actually girls. that was pretty hilarious.

[fryguy]

9. a question to your question

do you consider what happens at Mardi Gras, or as it seems now any parade/event, where women wear next to nothing and expose their breasts (and other body parts) to the crows and do other similar sexual displays similarly inappropriate?

[Misunderestimator]

10. A very good question.

Thanks for putting it in a nutshell. :thumbsup:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. LOL..GMTA

[Danieljay]

18. yes..thats a good question...

and I'll give it some thought. Im not sure you understand the point I'm trying to distinguish between being gay and having a sexual fetish. There IS a difference.

To answer your question, Mardi Gras is all about that, gay and straight alike, I expect that at Mardi Gras. Its a party and people know that going in.

[sui generis]

22. not assaulting you - just a point to make

you seem to think that "fetish" implies a deviation from some norm.

That deviation is on a very slippery sliding scale - there really isn't a standard. It's not up to us to judge what is "mainstream" as far as sexual expression in the gay community, so we don't.

We're all different and unique - sexuality is more open and less "dirty", and an undeniable part of our culture, both gay and straight. Certainly, we accept it among ourselves, whether we like the more colorful expressions or not.

That's all that matters.

[Misunderestimator]

23. And a pride parade is NOT a party?

I no more identify with those sexual fetishists you describe at the Portland Gay Pride parade, than I identify with those drunken naked straight partiers at Mardi Gras.

I however do not judge all straight people by the behavior of those straight people. Why are you so worried about how the gay community might be perceived by people mistakenly judging them all by the behavior of a few gay people in pride parade?

[Danieljay]

27. First, I'm not "worried" about it...

I'm concerned about the image it portrays to a society that already tramples on the rights of my gay and lesbian friends and encourages acts of emotional and physical violence toward that community.

Thanks for your response.

[Misunderestimator]

28. I'm more concerned that anyone would make the leap...

to judge all of us by the behavior of a few. And further than that, that such a blanket judgment would encourage violence. Instead of pretending that there are none among us that are outside the "norm"... we should be working to eliminate the kind of hatred that would be so blind to react against an entire group of people with violence.

Say what you like about how these people represent our community when they party at pride festivals... it isn't going to change anything. I would be more concerned for the gay community if we chose to be exclusionary.

Let's put our priorities and concerns about the gay community in the right perspective. We are no more defined by a group of fetishists at a pride festival, than you are by drunken partiers at Mardi Gras. It's really pretty simple.

[Danieljay]

29. I'm concerned about that leap too...

You know it isn't true, I know it isn't true, but an entirely misinformed public doesn't always know its true. I also believe that one can be outside the "norm" without pushing the bounds of pubic decency.

[Misunderestimator]

31. So, what's the solution then?

prohibiting these people from doing what they do?

I don't think you're going to get an argument from gay people like me that I would prefer that people don't assume anything about me based on the sort of people you describe. Any more than you would want to be judged based on the behavior of a specific group of straight people who would be considered out of the "norm" (like swingers, for instance... I just don't get that).

But would I take away their right to be there? No. So, what's the solution? Were you just.... musing about your concern for our community in that we may be mistaken for sexual fetishists? Or, did you have a solution in mind?

[Danieljay]

33. my solution is exactly this....

sharing my mixed feelings about the parade bringing forth discussion, which brings the issue to the forefront of individual minds, allowing one to come to his/her own decision on the issue, and go forth into the world considering the implications of one's behavior...good, bad, or otherwise.

[Misunderestimator]

34. Noble...

but your OP sounded a bit more judgmental than that...

[foreigncorrespondent]

51. Have you not...

watched an episode of cops when they attend Mardi Gras and have to arrest men and women alike for indecent exposure, having sex in the middle of the street, etc? If not, I suggest you do, because the majority of those people are bloody well straight.

[Swamp Rat]

70. And NOT from New Orleans!!!

:mad:

I am sooo SICK of drunk, redneck HETEROS fucking up my hometown and our traditions with their psychotic fetishes and drunken brawls.

[ldf]

60. beg to differ....

please, please, let me, let me....

mardi gras is a whole nother story.

if someone goes to a mardi gras parade out in the suburbs it can be a family affair.

but mardi gras in the french quarter is no way a family event. yet you see people with their small children right in the middle of it.

i have seen actual, FOR REAL, blowjobs being given, on balconies where crowds of hundreds, if not thousands, can see.

i have seen prostitutes giving blowjobs on major french quarter streets in the middle of the day.

i have seen total nudity more times than i can count. (got quite a few photos...!)

now. i KNOW what to expect. and i get quite a kick out of it.

but it is NOT like having a celebratory parade, inviting all to join us while we express pride in ourselves.

there is a time and a place for everything. mainstreet, broad daylight, ain't it.

having said that, i do greatly enjoy the amount of humor that the gay community has, and shows during it's parades. i think our drag queens are some of our greatest assets.

airing our sexual proclivities in public is NOT the way to garner respect.

please proceed to flame, since i have donned by red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple sequined jockstrap.

:-)

[Swamp Rat]

72. I beg to differ...

I loved Mardi Gras in the Quarter when I was a tot. Best sex education EVER! ;)

Then again, I was raised by Frida Kahlo and the Nutty Professor. :D

Thank Dionysus my mom lives in the Quarter. Mardi Gras in Jefferson Parish is NOT Mardi Gras. It's some kinda quasi Disney-Gras... :boring:

[sui generis]

11. the first answer is

"they" don't represent the entire gay community.

But the second answer is it's an inclusive community. It's a facet of who we are as a whole. Not everyone who is gay agrees with it or even likes it, but we accept it. It is not our job to sanitize ourselves for the media. Lipstick lesbians in business suits just aren't as exciting Dykes on Bikes! But there are a lot more of them watching the parade than in it.

The guy simulating oral sex - bad taste is everywhere, we're certainly not immune.

Somebody showing their boobs? well, here's the tricky part: If a guy has a breast augmentation is it considered "lewd" to show his male "breasts"? Some natural men have bigger man boobs than partial TG's I've seen. Who gets arrested? Why worry about it.

You probably also saw nursing associations, social care groups, church groups, cheerleaders, tavern associations, rugby teams, softball and baseball teams, swim teams, political associations, and lots of other more "maintstream" things marching right next to or hand in hand with the more "colorful" side of the community - they deserve equal time, not just the notably different.

We're not responsible for the media. They will always manage to show the least "sexy" guys kissing (to avoid getting anyone turned on?), and no matter if drag queens are banned forever, will manage to find stock footage of drag queens and guys in buttless chaps to show, because it's "scandalous", and scandal is entertaining and sells viewership, and advertising.

Anyway, a sincere thanks for your support; it's always a party. The downside you didn't get to see are the ghosts of hundreds of thousands of our friends and families who didn't survive AIDS, or self-destruction or criminal predation. That's the real point of "Pride". We're here. Look where we came from.

[arwalden]

37. Great Post.

Thanks! :applause:

[libnnc]

12. I understand your squeamishness about seeing

certain things, but as a lesbian and a student of gay/lesbian culture and history, let me take this opportunity to explain and defend the beautiful phenomena of "Drag Queens".

I am a self described "Lesbian Drag Groupie". I love drag. I appreciate it as performance art. It takes a whole lotta effort and talent to do drag (do it well, anyway). Drag is a form of entertainment, like burlesque but with more sequins. To me, there's nothing "sexual" about the art of drag, therefore it's not "icky" to me. It's just really dedicated, talented guys who enjoy performing an illusion. Nothing to be scared of. :hi:


"When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."~~Dr. Wayne Dyer

[Danieljay]

30. You're correct...I happen to go to drag shows and find it

extremely entertaining, both male and female. Some of the funnest times I've had out were at a drag show. Its a riot. Again, there is drag and there is sexual fetishism, I'm glad you helped remind me of the distinction. Thanks.

PS...Its not "icky" to me at all. For each their own..it was just the combination with the sexual fetish aspect (in public) that I had mixed feelings about.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. And yet every year the MSM covers Mardi Gras where the exact same

things and more (such as people pissing on other people's heads) happens..

While some of the acts you describe would offend my sensibilities even as a gay person, the Pride festival is just that..proud of our identity...proud of our sexuality and accepting of all of it whether we would personally participate or not.

The only thing I would ask you as a hetero... is would you post the same post and direct it to heteros about what's fishy in Denmark had you just attended Mardi Gras?

[BR_Parkway]

16. That's exactly the reason my partner and I don't go to them. We

have never felt the need to display what goes on behind closed doors in public like that and I do think it detracts from the message. I'm proud of who I am - Lover, father, grandfather, businessman, son. And if my sexuality is not the business of any of the people in my life who mean the most to me or the government's, why in the hell would I want to walk up and down a street displaying it for everyone else.

On edit - thank you for your support of the gay community.

[sui generis]

19. the point of "pride" is not sexuality

It's of being where we are today. Much of the world thinks that we should be locked up in the closet in a "don't ask don't tell" world, and worse, punished for being different.

In a pride parade we get to take "pride" in our differences.

[BR_Parkway]

38. exactly, and i think the over the top display of sexuality dilutes

that message

I'm proud of who I am and what I've accomplished. I'm proud that I am respected and loved by those who know me and that I don't have to hide who I am anymore.

I also respect those differences in others and am proud that they feel comfortable displaying them so openly. But it doesn't mean that I have to participate, it's not my style and going along with it 'just to fit in' would be as false as my first marriage to a woman - trying to be something I'm not. I might be into whips or chains or candlewax - but that's personal to me and the few people in my life that I've chosen to share it with.

I also wouldn't fit in at Mardi Gras with all the hetero over the top displays. So I don't go. Prudish? perhaps. But true to my beliefs? absolutely - and isn't that the true purpose of a pride parade?

[sui generis]

39. here's where I disagree

nobody has claim on pride parades or parades in general.

If you want a nice sedate parade, no problem - there are plenty of streets and cities to have it in. Have at it. Some of you may have to double up as spectators though, or run back to the end of the parade and go through a couple more times. :evilgrin:

If I read correctly, optimally we wouldn't have ANY parades that the public could see our "displays" in. That's exactly what I don't agree with.

That's why a parade has to be inclusive - anyway, no single one of us makes choices for all of us, and that's probably a good thing no matter which way you take your coffee.

Sedate old geezers have their slot in the parade just like everyone else.

(*scuse me while I go put on my fire jacket and prepare to be flamed):P

[BR_Parkway]

61. Never said they couldn't have their parade, I said this is the reason "I"

don't choose to participate. Other than the 'old geezer' comment, no flames from this side!

Unfortunately, the people who want to demonize us look for the examples to bolster their arguement that it's a choice and it's all about irresponsible sex, as many hookups as possible.

That's not the reality, no more than Queer as Folk, but my life would make one boring ass TV show - so I know the reality that sex sells, but sadly, it also does much to support the hateful accusations that those who would tear us down can use.

Parade away, I'll cheer you on from home. But I won't be there in person. I guess that's part of what the parades are celebrating - our respect of each other's diversity - your 'in your face' parade, my 'stay at home old geezerness'.

[eridani]

67. The demonizers hate us as just as much when we are sedate--

--so why not get hung for sheep instead of lambs?

Actually, the Seattle committee has cracked down on some of the more outre practices, which has caused my husband to quit attending. As vanilla as we are in our own sex life, both of us enjoy transgressiveness. That is, as long as other people are doing it. ;-)

[BR_Parkway]

76. my sedateness has nothing to do with other's opinions of me - I got

over that issue years back (and wish it would have been sooner)

Again, to each their own. For some it will be loud parades, for others sitting home watching the tube.

[nikraye]

20. Ever been to Mardi Gras?

Why do we never hear straights expressing their disgust and disdain for the x-rated displays of heterosexuality at New Orleans' annual Mardi Gras, e.g., drunken straight women flashing their naked breasts to crowds of equally drunken and sexually misbehaving straight men?

Stop already with the double standard. If you're going to *judge* gay pride festivals, then you'd better turn the mirror on your straight counterparts, like those who attend Mardi Gras, Carnivale, and other equally *shocking* festivals.

[Kraklen]

21. I know, it drives me nuts. When will those people learn...

that "pride" means being ashamed of yourself and looking and acting like normal people.

:eyes:

[swag]

26. Plugging "Bites for Rights" tomorrow night in Portland

http://www.basicrights.org/events/event.asp?ID=56

"Tuesday, June 21st join thousands of Oregonians in turning your food habit into a political act by dining out. Participating restaurants will donate 15% of your bill to Basic Rights Oregon; what a great reason to not cook…ALL DAY! Mark your calendars and make your breakfast, lunch, and dinner plans NOW…and don’t forget to order dessert!"

See the link for participating restaurants. Me, I will be having fried green tomatoes and blackened catfish at Bernie's Southern Bistro, because the food is great, the owner is a honey, and Bernie's is within stumbling distance of my home.

Peace and Love.

[Bridget Burke]

32. It was a PARADE!

I'm Irish American (mostly bogtrotters, a few from the Orange tribe who won't admit they're Irish). Do most St Patrick's Day celebrations make me proud? Hardly. Too much green beer & blarney.

How do you KNOW the people in the "Fetish" costumes aren't "Everyday People"? Most of them don't dress like that 24/7. They're just letting off steam.

[Danieljay]

35. I've already said everyday people have fetishes...

I'm all for it, but not all of them display those publically. Call me conservative but there are some things I personally think that should be kept private. I hear people all the time saying its not anyone's business what people do in their private sex lives. Its when it becomes public that the lines begin to blurr for me. Personal choice I guess.

[Obamarama]

36. Thoughts from an "out" gay man....

Thanks for your post. It was very interesting. I also think it's cool you actually went to a gay event not to gawk, stare or condemn, but just out of basic support. Kudos to you.

I have to say I identified a lot with what you shared in your description of the event. I have attended one gay pride parade in my life, in Columbus, OH. I was really disturbed by some of what I saw in the parade and didn't quite connect the concept with pride with some of the things I saw in the parade. I thought "well, I guess this isn't all it's cracked up to be," and pretty much figured that was my first and last pride event.

Quite frankly, it pisses me off to no end that those of us who are gay bitch and moan about the right-wing's portrayal of us, yet every year we give our enemies miles of footage so they can add fuel to the anti-gay fire. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. These events should reflect our dignity, not each and every one of our sexual fetishes.

As some people have posted, heterosexuals break loose of the chains of convention during Mardi Gras and revel in the joy of sexuality mixed with partying. Why shouldn't we have the right to do the same, you are likely ask.

We SHOULD have the right to do it, and with the month of June as witness, we DO have that right and gays and lesbians are exercising it this month across the nation.

Comparing Mardi Gras with gay pride is not really comparing apples to apples, though. Mardi Gras is one, huge, pretty much centralized annual event. Gay Pride plays itself out across the country, during multiple weekends, and provides us a hell of a lot more exposure to the media and mainsteram America than a few hundred thousand drunk, reveling heterosexuals in New Orleans.

We have circuit parties. There are huge, well-organized local,regional, and national events year-round for people into S/M, Bears, Watersports, and just about any sexual fetish out there where we are free to "be ourselves" and indulge in anything we damned please. Therefore I don't buy into the argument that we need this one time in June to fling open the closet doors and bear everything for all to see.

Leather daddies, trussed up like a thanksgiving turkey in nothing but a harness, a leather jockstrap and Doc Martens does not translate into pride no matter which way you spin it - it just looks fucking silly as hell.

Ultimately, I think pride parades represent a great potential, but I think as a minority, we're wasting that potential because nobody has the balls to say "The P.C. bullshit stops here, and no you can't march in the parade if you are waving around a 13" dildo."

And no, I am not some self-loathing Log Cabin "Republican." I'm a dyed in the wool liberal who hate seeing my fellow gay and lesbian compatriots shooting ourselves in the foot every friggin' June.

Flame away if you must, but I'll bet more of my fellow gay men and lesbians hold opionions simialar to mine.

[baby_mouse]

43. Thoughts from another out gay man

'kay.

Why is ""out"" in inverted commas in your subject line (it's in inverted commas here because I'm quoting you, just to avoid confusion...)? Is being out sort of a pretendy thing?

I have to say I identified a lot with what you shared in your description of the event.

Hm. Well, I don't, really. I don't entirely *disagree* with the sentiment, but I don't know what use I would make of it, if you try to interfere with things like Pride and streamline them into one sort of thing or another you just get a billion tons of internal wrangling and politics and nothing happens. It's a bit of a go with the flow thing.

Quite frankly, it pisses me off to no end that those of us who are gay bitch and moan about the right-wing's portrayal of us, yet every year we give our enemies miles of footage so they can add fuel to the anti-gay fire. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. These events should reflect our dignity, not each and every one of our sexual fetishes.

Well... (sigh, scritch scritch) is it the same gay people who dress up as leather daddies and so on that bitch about the right's portrayal of gay people? If so, well, yes, that's a bit hypocritical. I don't understand why you place importance on the right wing's "portrayal" of gay people. If there weren't leather daddies and drag queens to vilify, be assured that they'd find some other sort of image. Their opinions of us aren't really formed from Pride, I suspect, I think their weird attitude comes from inside *them* and would plaster itself over whatever picture of homosexuality the media could give them. :shrug: I could be wrong, I don't understand what goes on in their heads...

We have circuit parties. There are huge, well-organized local,regional, and national events year-round for people into S/M, Bears, Watersports, and just about any sexual fetish out there where we are free to "be ourselves" and indulge in anything we damned please. Therefore I don't buy into the argument that we need this one time in June to fling open the closet doors and bear everything for all to see.

"Argument"?! What *argument*?

???

Is someone somewhere on a discussion board defending their right to dress how they please in a parade that's supposed to represent their sexuality?

I'm sorry, but *I* don't buy this idea that being gay isn't about sexuality, I'm afraid the thing that sets gay people apart from the mainstream is their *sexual* orientation. This will mean that in parades that celebrate the gay experience you will have some people who are into straaaange sexual things, wooo, help everybody, they might make ME look bad.

Leather daddies, trussed up like a thanksgiving turkey in nothing but a harness, a leather jockstrap and Doc Martens does not translate into pride no matter which way you spin it - it just looks fucking silly as hell.

Well, as long as you don't do it, what are you worried about?
Pride isn't about the photos and the press, its about the *street* it's on.

Ultimately, I think pride parades represent a great potential, but I think as a minority, we're wasting that potential because nobody has the balls to say "The P.C. bullshit stops here, and no you can't march in the parade if you are waving around a 13" dildo."

This is *annoying*. The reason they don't have the balls to tell someone "The P.C. bullshit stops here, and no you can't march in the parade if you are waving around a 13" dildo" is that the response of a substantial number of people in the parade would be to tell them to fuck off. And rightly so, really. Who the hell are you to tell anyone else what to do, pal? You get to be the boss of me cos we're both gay? No, dear, no more than a straight guy gets to be the boss of you cos you're both guys.

You're right, Pride does represent a great potential but it's supposed to be one of solidarity. If you want to take advantange of the fact that large numbers of gay people want to go out and show solidarity with each other but you don't want *THOSE* sorts of gay people or *THAT* kind of weirdo cos they don't look right then I think you ought to be asking yourself what it is you want to claim solidarity WITH, cos it's not homosexuality as *I* understand it, it's some nice, sanitised version that will make people think nicely of you but not the kinds of gay people you don't want to be associated with, which is actually a different thing from homosexuality itself.

And no, I am not some self-loathing Log Cabin "Republican." I'm a dyed in the wool liberal who hate seeing my fellow gay and lesbian compatriots shooting ourselves in the foot every friggin' June.

Okay, but I think you're trying to fix the wrong problem. It shouldn't matter whether or not people who look silly go on these marches, the RW idiots shouldn't make silly decisions based on what people LOOK like but what they DO, for one thing, and pandering to that sort of thinking is pandering to the same instincts that lead to witch-burning.

People should not be castigated with disgusting legislation for looking silly. It's irrational. Locking step with irrational social mechanisms by kowtowing to them strengthens them and allows them to bud off into new forms.

Flame away if you must

So many people say that sort of thing but they never really mean it...

but I'll bet more of my fellow gay men and lesbians hold opionions simialar to mine.

Perhaps. It seems possible.

You know, you *could* organise your OWN Pride. You could call it "Sensible Gay Pride" or "Not Weirdo Gay Pride" or something. Or you could pull of a Fred Phelps and counter-protest the parade, or you could join the procession in an enormous float next to the sadomasochists with giant arrow shaped sign on it pointing to them and saying "We're not with THEM..."

What is it that you actually *want*?

[Misunderestimator]

47. Excellent Post!

:thumbsup:

[baby_mouse]

48. Thank you! n/t

[ruggerson]

55. Maybe he doesn't want his civil rights to always be tied to

images of leather harness daddies dancing on a float.

Maybe he doesn't like giving political ammunition to the enemy.

Maybe he wants OTHER images to be shown in the media for a change.

Just musing.

[Obamarama]

62. BINGO....we have a winner!!

Although you made my original point MUCH more succinctly than did I, thank you for clarifying EXACTLY the idea I was trying to convey.

[baby_mouse]

75. shrug

Well, he's entitled to his opinion.

But I think if he's genuinely concerned about his civil rights he might want to think about what they're FOR. Patronising, I know...

Really, he might want to worry more about HIS image with his allies (i.e. people like me) rather than our image with our enemies. They've already made up their minds, you see...

I can understand his frustration but I think he's over-reacting.

Sorry for talking about you 3rd person, Kzoo.

[donheld]

65. Consider yourself flamed

i heartily dis-agree!

[geniph]

40. Because the two communities traditionally support one another

Both the GLBTQ community and the leather community face a great deal of societal misunderstanding and prejudice. The two communities tend to band together to support one another. There's a lot of overlap between the communities, but it is a HUGE misconception that all leatherfolk are GLBTQ or all GLBTQ folk are leather. There's a lot of overlap between the fetish and pagan/Ren Faire community too, but I didn't notice anyone complaining about the pagans being in Pride (here in Seattle they have at least one contingent in the parade every year).

The fetish community, while a very visible part of Pride, is by no means anywhere near a majority of the Parade. This year, Seattle Pride has 178 registered parade march groups, of which about four are leather/fetish groups (and that's counting the Goths). Yet that's what people will focus on. Maybe people need to examine their own fascination with such a small minority.

And please. It's ONE FREAKING DAY A YEAR they get to show their joy and pride in being part of a larger community. Can't they have even ONE DAY?!

[bobbieinok]

41. in 1980 IA had a referendum for the ERA on the ballot...a group

opposing the ERA constantly played an ad with visuals from a gay pride type parade in SF....after some stuff about ERA being wrong and bad, the ad ended with 'do you want to see this every day in IA'?

I know, I know, what do scenes from a gay pride parade have to do with the ERA

but that's the connection the opposition constantly made.....passing ERA means supporting homosexuality, and unisex bathrooms, and.....

the IA legislature had passed the ERA amendment a year or so earlier..several states had, and it was on its way to getting the necessary number of state approvals to become part of the constitution

and then there was a massive national attack on the ERA everywhere...and enough Iowans signed a petition for a referendum to withdraw the approval

the intensity and extent of the opposition in IA was frightening .... women speaking in support of the ERA in meetings in small towns were called 'secular humanists', etc......this was the first time most had ever heard the phrase

several neighbors to whom I spoke were very clear they opposed the ERA because 'passage would lead to approval of homosexuality'

also, the Mormon church was a major leader in the opposition with front groups everywhere

I'm not saying shut down gay pride parades or anything like that.....just be aware how some may use the images in ways you might never expect

[DS9Voy]

42. I call bull shit

I've been going to pride parades the past 5 years and the ONLY thing very sexual I usually see every time is a company that likes to advertise lubricant everywhere. (but hell, if it was a heterosexual event it would probably be done as well)

You have to remember that pride parades are dealing with SEXUALITY - therefore you see a little bit more SEXUALITY. It is intended to be more pronounced than say if it was a barney the dino parade.

If it was a heterosexual pride parade you would see more SEXUALITY - because the subject of the parade is based more on SEXUALITY therefore it would be more pronounced.

But all of this "guy performing oral sex on the sidewalk" - I call bull shit on.

[donheld]

44. Welcome to DU

and i must say i agree with you. I've been to pride parades for 15 years here in Denver. They are not all sexual. We have over 100,000 people and i've only seen about 2 sets of tits in the entire 15 years.

[Misunderestimator]

45. Welcome to DU!

I agree with you too. :toast:

[Danieljay]

46. call it what you will...

perhaps the guy kneeling in front of his friend tugging his underwear out with his teeth provactively was an isolated incident however...the sexual innuendos,BDSM/Leather/S&M, breast shaking, and overt expressions of sexuality were anything but.

Like I said, my feelings were mixed. Joy on one hand for how far the gay community has come and sadness for those who might give the gay community a bad name. Over all, I enjoyed the parade.

[newyawker99]

49. Hi DS9Voy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[foreigncorrespondent]

50. Hmmmm!

"I fully support..." "I have many freinds who..."

Ya know, if you are going to bash the shit out of a group of people for no bloody reason than for not being you, then don't add the above mentioned lines. One thing us queers cannot stand with a passion is someone who bashes the shit out of us then try and tell us not to blame them because they support us and in fact have many freinds who are queer.

Ya know, if you supported us, then you would understand that gay pride is a release from actually living most of the year in an oppressed way.

Ya know, if you were a true mate to those queer friends of yours, you wouldn't be on a public forum bashing the crap out of their party.

[Danieljay]

52. so...tell me how you really feel!

Are you actually saying that public displays of ones personal sexual fetish is the only way a "queer" (as you put it) can find release from their year long oppression? Please tell me it isn't so. I would venture to to say that many of your "queer" friends as you call them would disagree. And many of those showed up in respectable fashion (yes that can include drag) to participate in or observe and support the community.

And for the record, I'm not sure what your definition of bashing is, but I'm not "bashing" the *hit out of anybody, I'm simply exercising my right to express what I observed and felt about my experience at the Portland Pride parade.

My mixed feelings about the parade was not about gays and lesbians, its about the behavior of many who say they represent gays and lesbians. If thats who you want as your community spokespeople, (because THAT is who the media and those on the right are going to point to when the next vote for gay marriage or gay rights comes up) the gay and lesbian community will never gain the respect they deserve, my friends included.

Just my opinion.

[foreigncorrespondent]

53. Oh please!

And if I was to tell you how I really feel, I would be banned in an heartbeat. And no one is worth my being banned for.

Now, why are you lumbering ALL queers into the same boat? Did I say that a display of sexual fetishness is how we all release? Funny I don't recall saying that. What I did say though was that pride is about not living in an oppressed way for one bloody day a year.

Many of my queer friends? Hell mate I am queer. I am sure I have a damn site more knowledge of my community than you. And I am sure I do not go around bashing your community as you have mine.

I'm simply exercising my right to express what I observed and felt about my experience at the Portland Pride parade.

Really? Funny what I saw in your OP was nothing more than you insulting a group of queer people. You didn't go into the good stuff pride offered until further down the thread. You pulled a Fox news and did nothing more than express the negatives that come with any party that happen to have several thousand people in attendance.

And please don't tell me that your feelings are not related to the group. Especially when you lumbered us all into your leaky little boat.

Just my opinion!

[Danieljay]

56. perhaps you should read again my original post...

First Paragraph:

"I'm pleased and proud to live in a city that can hold a gay pride parade without the threat of massive protests and perhaps violence. Seeing the floats, the support of many faith communities who participated, the support of legislators, and the support of the community was wonderful! Everyday people celebrating "Gay Pride"."


I never said nor ever implied I had any more insight into the gay community as you, nor did I ever lump everyone into the same group, you defensively jumped into that boat on your own, mate. I said from the beginning I was on the outside looking in, and honestly stated what I observed and how I felt about it. Do they have the right to do it? Damn straight they do (forgive the pun). Just because one has the right...SHOULD they do it? I guess thats for each individual to decide. If that is bashing, then I guess I'm a gay basher. I would argue otherwise.

So,call me want you want, I just called it how I saw it. Just as I don't speak for all heterosexuals you don't speak for all homosexuals. What you call queer I refer to as gay, lesbian, or transgender. In my world queer is still a derogatory term for gays and lesbians and simply reinforces the image that some already have of the community.

I'll take your opinions and give them some thought, thank you. My objective here was not to offend or "bash" anyone.

[ruggerson]

57. If it's "gay bashing"

then many, if not most gays, are guilty of it. Myself included. My post to you below was rather measured in tone, but feel assured that there are many gay folks, men and women, who totally and completely agree with your sentiments.

And I'm sorry you have people jumping on you for expressing your thoughts. You said nothing that many gays don't discuss amongst their friends, gay and straight, quite often.

[foreigncorrespondent]

73. I don't have to read your post again!

I have already read it through several times prior to even posting my first response in this thread.

This is exactly where you begin to lumber the entire gay community into one little leaky boat:

Now, before anyone goes completely defensive and begins flaming me, hear me out. Time and again I hear the gay community telling me that being gay isn't about sex and is definitely not a sexual "fetish". Now granted, sex happens with gay people just as it does with people who aren't gay. Also, sexual fetishes are just as common among heterosexuals as those who are gay. But why the open display of sexual fetishes during the parade?

And obviously I am not the only one who read your OP this way. I see several have pointed this out to you.

So maybe you need to go back and reread your OP in an objective light. Maybe then you will see it.

[Obamarama]

63. Oh good god.....

Get a grip. The man is not bashing anyone.

[donheld]

66. I've seen more homophobia in this thread

than in any other thread in a very long time. :grr::grr::grr:

[eridani]

68. More anti-kinky than anti-gay, no? n/t

[Danieljay]

77. hey..I fully support kink...but there is a time and place for it...eom.

[foreigncorrespondent]

71. I think you should take your own advice!

When you have someone pointing the mistakes of a few, but blaming an entire group of people then you in fact have someone bashing a group of people.

[Misunderestimator]

79. Apparently a lot of people do feel bashed by his OP...

including myself.

[ruggerson]

54. Don't even give it a second thought

Let me tell you something:

I'd estimate that 99% of the general gay population out there never goes to those parades.

I went when I was a young kid, and had pretty much the same reaction you did, and I ain't even straight. :)

The folks who go to those parades have every right to do so, they have every right to act out sexually, just like people do at Mardi Gras.

But, there is a severe political downside to them, as well. The 99% of the gay population that doesn't go to them are your average joes and josephines, and when the media talks about "gays" on television, the average joe in a suit climbing into his Camry in the driveway isn't the image you see over the story. A prancing character making lewd sexual gestures is. The media loves to pretend that THAT"S the image that represents "gays". Because, you see, they think sensationalism creates ratings. And more than a few of them are truly homophobic and probably create the image intentionally. After all, the weaponry to do so is given them as a gift, is it not?

Some of the marches on Washington have been more representative of reality. You saw everyday folks, many in business clothes, and they were indistinguishable from any straight parade goer.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, as well, but I don't think the Pride Parades do anything except make the parade goers temporarily feel good about themselves. I think, longer term, they do great political/image damage, and I don't think many of the more flamboyant parade participants give much of a thought to it.

[Danieljay]

58. perhaps I didn' make myself clear to some.

I'm not here to bash anyone, I really think that open discussion is what needs to be had here. There are many opinions around this whole issue, inside and outside of the gay community. Shutting ourselves down from differing opinion gets us nowhere, whether it be gay marriage, abortion, birth control, or any other issue which seems to be a political hot potato.

Defensiveness never gets anyone, anywhere..and we are all prone to that when we get our buttons pushed (I know I am, the ego doesn't like to be challenged). I would hope that honesty prevails and wisdom results in an openess to seeing how the behavior of a few affect the opinion of the whole.

I knew I would receive a lot of accusations and misunderstandings of my intentions here, thats to be expected on a board like this. What I have a difficult time with is when a person becomes so entrenched in their own point of view that they can no longer even hear what the other person is trying to say. Unless two opposing views can find where they agree and build on those agreements, all is lost, communication breaks down and conflict breaks out.

I am taking all the opinions posted here into consideration and will hopefully come to a greater awareness of the issue at hand. Its called growth, and I'm committed to it, regardless of how painful it can be.

[Obamarama]

64. You made your self perfectly freakin' clear....

And you have nothing to apologize for. Not all of us who are gay are socially and politically myopic, not to mention uppity. Pay no heed to the gnashing of teeth your post seems to have elicited among the more excitable DUers who have weighed in with their pithy exaltations.

[Misunderestimator]

80. Yes, by all means, pay no heed to anyone you have offended.

What wonderful advice.

[Duncan Grant]

59. So what? I've never been to Mardi Gras.

I can only imagine that the hetero-sexual energy would baffle me. The titties/beads fetish is probably more than I want to see. Truly, I would be puzzled by the behavior of straight people. :sarcasm:

And the alcohol consumption? Tsk. Tsk.

edit: Looks like NSMA already beat me to this point (post 15).

[NMMNG]

69. There are plenty of "everyday people" in the GLBT world

If you were to attend events other than the parade you would no doubt have seen them. In fact, if you'd just scanned your audience you would have gotten a good look at many of them. Unfortunately it is often the people outside the mainstream who end up being in the parades--those who are very flamboyant, unusual, even exhibitionist. The "everyday people" aren't equally represented in most parades.

Really though, since when is any parade a good representative sample of a group of people? Take the 4th of July parade in Town X. You'll see the High School Marching Band, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the town's blonde Prom Queen waving from a convertible, Mayor Baxter waving from his convertible, and a few other carefully selected individuals or groups. Do you see individual steel workers, chaimbermaids, real-estate salespersons, teachers and all of the other people who make the community work? The people who actually form the cross-section of the community? No, you see the stereotype of "Hometown America", just as in a gay-pride parade you usually end up seeing the stereotypes of gay people.

If you want to see the "everyday people" gays, skip the parade next time. Head to the other events instead. You'll get a much better representative sample.

[Irreverend IX]

74. The difference between Pride and Mardi Gras

Mardi Gras is just a party; exhibitionism by drunken straights isn't construed to represent all heterosexuals. On the other hand, Pride is supposed to represent the gay community, and reporters covering it will always focus on the most extreme of the participants. When Joe Average American sees press photos featuring leather, dildos and nudity, he's going to assume that these images represent the gay community. After all, it's gay pride, right? No one can ignore the importance of public relations, least of all GLBT people who are trying to garner respect in a homophobic society. Pride parades are the biggest PR events the gay community has, and they should make sure that the message they put across won't alienate people who might otherwise be receptive to their message. There's a reason the Democratic party won't feature LIHOP theorists at its press conferences, and that's because if there was a speaker with views like those every Democrat would be seen as a conspiracy nut (regardless of whether LIHOP might be true). The GLBT community should do some thinking along those same lines.

[Obamarama]

78. The point you make is the very crux of the issue....

Very good post. My point exactly. And, welcome to DU!

[Misunderestimator]

81. "The GLBT community should do some thinking along those same lines."

Why, thank you so much for your heartfelt advice. :eyes: