It's not about D vs. R to me

[justinsb]

I understand that this is a Democratic Party discussion board, and that this post may not necessarily be welcome but as an expat living in Canada my perspective has shifted dramatically, based on the people I talk to here and the news we get here. To most it is not about Republican or Democrat. Many here, if not most, don't feel that Kerry being president would have changed much from a worldwide perspective. Although I've been welcomed with open arms and treated very well, there are alot of people here - including informed and educated people - who fear a wave of immigration from the US even if it is a liberal wave.

There is a mind set, a set of values if you will that Canadians seem to share with Europeans and many others and the current agenda has little to do with terrorism or war. People here see the problems of the planet in terms of the environment and poverty and these are the problems we are seeking to resolve as much as is possible. It seems every month here there are new environmental initiatives and incentives to try to reduce pollution, more money all the time - both federal money and private donations is flowing to the poorest countries in the world and our military is busy with peacekeeping and nation building in places like Afghanistan and Sudan.

There is a strong sense, justified or not, that many Americans - even Democrats are locked into a mindset that makes them feel entitled to things like SUVs, cheap energy, low taxes etc and that is the mindset that causes the fear of immigration. People here would like lower taxes but I'm positive that if the federal government held a referendum on a tax hike to help with poverty in Africa that people would groan but it would pass, the same thing if the government held referendums to support environmental conservations, improve public transit, improve health care, etc. People watch the US carefully and hope for a sea change, but I think what people are really hoping for is a shift in overall perspective that goes well beyond electing a Democrat President.

[eallen]

1. Is there no sense that the GOP has become particularly corrupt?

[justinsb]

2. Don't get me wrong

people here (and there have been polls on the specific question) think Bush is more dangerous than Bin Laden but there was great dissapoinment that Kerry also supported the war (the whole we're just fighting it the wrong way thing), people here wanted Kerry to win, in the hopes that it would make MORE invasions less likely, but in terms of seeing an alignment between what people here believe in and the policies of someone like Kerry, it just wasn't there.

[Beaver Tail]

3. Replying as a Canadian

That’s quite true. In general Canadians (IMO) viewed the Kerry vs. Bush option as not much of an option at all. I believe their voting history similar.

I remember telling my wife in 1999 that I don’t like to trust Bush. He is going to be trouble.

[justinsb]

7. I think the lack of comment on this post

is interesting in and of itself. I see alot of comments on these boards about US lives, US soldiers, what this is costing the US, even the illegality of the war, but very little comment on Iraqi lives, what this is costing the Iraqi people, or the implications of an illegal war from the perspective of Iraq. That, I think, is very illustrative of the problem I was trying to point out.

[DrDebug]

5. The main reason for people being here is Bush

And maybe Kerry wouldn't have been the greatest president either and he probably wouldn't have stopped the war either, but it wouldn't be as bad as it is today. I would certainly given Kerry the benefit of the doubt. Heck, Nixon would have made a better president than Bush!

It is what is being said in the About of this site and if you can live with that then this a good place for you. This is place of people who are anti-Bush and progressive, but not necessarily Democratic.

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

[justinsb]

8. Thanks for posting that, it's good to hear

alot of what I say here either gets no response at all, or is greeted with shock and a little hostility (although I'm certainly not a freeper, neocon or anything of the kind) but I will keep posting if there is a chance of anyone paying attention.

[DrDebug]

11. The lack of response was because of your critism

And the level of response always varies. Sometimes I get no response whatsoever and somebody a lot of people respond, so it's always unknown what the response rate will be.

You have made valid points, but the real dilemma with the United States is Bush. As long as the illegal war is going on then stuff like SUVs and pollution and the economy are minor issues.

And Bush knows that as well: That is the reason for continously focusing on the War in Iraq, the War on Terrorism etc. etc. Because that allows them to do all the other evil stuff as well.

Nobody talks about Enron anymore even though it was clear that it was a tip of the iceberg and there were dozens of companies who did similar things, but the investigation has been stopped due to the illegal war.

[justinsb]

14. Thanks again

And I understand your perspective. It still seems to me though that if Bush's entire focus is on the war, and Democrat's (and other progressives) allow their entire focus to be on Bush then there are some very important issues vanishing under the radar and that neither side is doing anything about it.

[Bridget Burke]

4. A shift in "overall perspective" would be great.

In the meantime, we still in the USA would like to dump as many Republicans as possible.

It's a start.

[justinsb]

9. I hope you're right and

certainly, elect who you want. I just hope that electing people with a D after their name on the ballot doesn't become the be-all, end-all of the goal.

[Telly Savalas]

25. Although one can make a strong case...

that until a shift in overall perspective occurs, there's not going to be any significant Republican dumping.

[Warpy]

6. that shift has to occur in the party, too, from the grassroots up

because the party has been representing K Street and the country's yuppies very well, but the vast majority of us are totally unrepresented today. Nobody is looking out for us in Washington.

People are starting to realize that it's a class issue, and always has been. 51% of the electorate stays home instead of making an effort to go vote for another rich man who will raise their taxes without giving them anything in return.

Yuppies feel entitled to the McMansion and the SUV. The people the party needs to listen to aren't feeling entitled to anything, not even a living wage, or health care, or retirement insurance. The party needs to address all of that if they want to start winning elections.

[justinsb]

10. I certainly wish you luck

I was a Democratic activist for years in the US, but felt that things were getting no better, inside or outside of the party and the choice to leave ultimately came down to the type of culture I wanted my children to grow up in.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I couldn't agree more. The Canadians (et al) have the right perspective.

What we have is essentially two corporate parties vying for votes by promoting the "American Dream" of material success at the expense of the rest of the world and it's own "underclass".

The only real difference between the (R)s and (D)s is how far they will go to protect the status quo of the American predator. Which is why we hear the "not as bad" chorus from the kneejerk Yellow Dogs when their "leaders" sell them out time after time.

I, for one, will vote the issues hence forward. Which means that the Greens will be getting most of my votes in the future.

The Canadians should fear a wave of liberal immigrants. We'd be there in a flash if we weren't retired and had the dough required to get a residency.

[justinsb]

15. Even here

the fairly progressive liberals who have governed the country for the last few decades are in trouble. The Greens in the last Canadian election, managed 5% of the vote without a single federal dollar and without a single nationally recognized candidate. That 5% is enough to get them federal money for the next election.

[Finder]

13. I don't see it a D vs R either...

I feel there are progressive republicans as well as conservative democrats in our current political system.

A majority of members of both parties are part of the ruling corporate party IMO.

[justinsb]

16. The corporations are certainly a challenge

but even corporations will adapt to political change. Change the atmosphere in Washington, or your state capital and the corporations will adapt and live on - because if they are any good at what they do, that's what corporations do.

[Finder]

23. I disagree

This country, and I would argue the world today are controlled by corporations.

Both parties are nothing without corporate backing. If corporations were not allowed to contribute, we would have more political parties.

[justinsb]

24. I'm not arguing that

corporations control American politics and that of much of the world. What I'm saying is that the focus has to be on politicians, not corporations. Take back the government and elect a government that will control corporations rather than vice versa. You can't unelect a corporation, only their puppets - it's a matter of focus and how you spend your time and resources.

[Name removed]

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[justinsb]

18. Here Taxes are

something of a necessary evil, granted people moan and groan about them just like any other major expense, but I think on the whole people see them not as something that is being taken away, but as a form of collective action. This (insert reasonable goal) is something WE want to do and this (tax line on paycheque) is what it costs to do that.

[Name removed]

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[MadHound]

20. Well first off, you're not hearing from the majority of people in the US

And that group is the great non-voter. Mostly liberal, quite cynical, and still pissed off, they looked at Kerry vs. Bush as more of the same ol' same ol' two party/same corporate master system of government. They have gotten sick of this good cop/bad cop game that passes for bipartisan politics in this country, and have completely opted out.

I understand, sympathize and empathize with this mindset, yet I still find it counterproductive. While I see the ravages that the two party/same corporate master system of government wreaks on the populace, I feel that dropping out of the political process serves no good purpose. Rather, I am donating my energy, time, and money to candidates that do not take a corporate dime, which rules out 99% of the Democratic candidates. Rather, I'm trying to build up the Greens.

You also aren't seeing what is going on at the local level. Many, many cities and towns are much more liberal than their state, or nation as a whole. I live in the middle of a red state, yet we have a thriving liberal community that supports and passes laws concerning recycling, pot decriminalization, green space, use of renewable energy, etc. etc. These things don't make the national news, but they're out there and flourishing across the country.

I think that there are many liberals who are in the same boat I am, former Dems, still wanting to be active, but feel left out by a Democratic party that has moved right a great deal, and become increasingly coroprate tools. I think that we're starting to see the beginning of a fight for the liberal soul in this nation, and that whoever comes out on top will be a much stronger force to deal with. Too many of the left leaning Dems are feeling like I do, and are going Green.

If the forces opposing corporate America and its political puppets prevail, then I think that you and your fellow citizens can breath easier. However if the forces of plutocracy win, whether they wear the label of Republican or Democrat, I don't think even the border will protect you.

[justinsb]

21. If you're right

those are the Americans that Canadians and Europeans need to hear from, don't be afraid to reach across borders for assistance. Most Americans may not be aware of what goes on outside your borders, or at least unaware of most of it, but everyone knows what happens in the US, and the danger it represents and you will find considerable support for the 'resistance' inside the US.

[Terran1212]

22. I think you're absolutely correct

There is a very strong military-industrial complex that true progressives have to deal with. There is a large conspiracy of elite powers in Washington, and it's not just about bringing down their puppet, the fanatic Bush.

We have a very long struggle ahead for us.