Question for people who know a lot about Islam and the Middle East...???

[battleknight24]

I am currently working on a paper about the conflict between Shiite Muslims and Sunni Muslims. I am almost done with it; I have a lot of information about the basic differences between the two as far as their beliefs and traditions go, but I can't find any information on the 'net about current problems and conflicts, or any that have happened in the past few years, particularly in Iraq. Can someone help point me in the right direction?


Peace,

[eleny]

1. Well, it's been said that they're having a civil war right now

Didn't Saddham keep all that in check while he was in power? And now it's all gone to crap.

[glaucon]

2. You haven't found any info on conflicts

because there hasn't been any. It's a canard cooked up by Bu$hCo and the Mighty Wurlitzer.

[battleknight24]

3. Say what...???

???

[LynnTheDem]

8. Exactly.

Iraqis are NOT "Sunni vs Shia". They are TRIBAL.

And almost ALL tribes have BOTH Sunni AND Shia branches.

Sunni & Shia marry each other; their kids call themselves "Sushi". (That cracks me up :D )

TRIBES fight with TRIBE, but Iraqis are IRAQI FIRST, and then tribal.

NOT Sunni vs Shia.

Riverbend says so. Dahr Jamail says so. Juan Cole says so. Etc etc etc. But try telling that to most Americans.

[Czolgosz]

4. Much of the Shiite-Sunni conflict occurs in Pakistan, not Iraq. If you

research the history of Pakistan over the past 25 years, you will learn much about this struggle. Actually, things were not as bad in Iraq under Saddam as elsewhere in the Middle East. No question that Saddam was a douchebag (and you can put that in your paper if you want), but the working people in Iraq had a greater level of public education, greater gender equality, and more religious tolerance in Saddam's Iraq that in any other Middle Eastern country except Israel (granted, this is still setting the bar pretty damn low). You should post your paper in this thread when you finish it.

[insane_cratic_gal]

5. I think it's tribal

Part of it is anyway. Baathists are a maffia guised as a politics, there is big faction of Sunni that belong to this party.

Baathists in the 70-80's deported 200,000 Shiites, Turks and Kurds to Iran.

Also Shiites worship Grand Ayatollah (Iran) then it becomes a religious issue. Shiite is a different variant of Muslim. They believe the same thing but it's like a Irish Catholic and Roman Catholic. One is more liberal and relaxed about their religion then the other.

Shiite's often have a sect that is very fundamental (like we have here) local indigenous political leaders view them as radical and believe they are committed to the overthrow of existing government. They weren't always like this it was one man who tore down the wall of church and state. Khomeini, created a theocracy, shiite's began to become more fundamental about their religion.
Khomeini instituted a strict regime of Islamic law, women had to wear veils and criminal justice system was replaced with religious courts

(scary shit.. sounds familiar though doesnt it.)


For more on that google: Ayatollah Khomeini, he's pretty important why Shiite's are fundies.




The religious spin has to do with a blood line you can read that on this site
http://www.rim.org/muslim/shiite.htm

The "Sunni": 800 million:

The followers of Abu, called "Sunni" because they accept the "sunnas", the oral traditions and interpretations of the Koran after Muhammad's death, called the "sunnas", and later the "Hadiths".

They are usually more liberal. They belief the "caliph" ("successor" of Muhammad) should always be elected, not conferred by heredity. They claim they are the true followers of the faith, and until 1959 they refuse to recognize the Shiites as true Muslims. They believe in "predestination".
During the Ottoman Turks, the Caliphs were called "Sultans".

- The "Shiite": 100 million:

The "Shiite ("partisans"), are the followers of Ali, more orthodox and militant, mainly in Iran, Iraq, and Palestine. In 656, Ali and Fatima's son Hussein led a fight against the Sunnis. Hussein was torture and beheaded, and today the Shiites of Iran honor the memory of Hussein's death with an annual procession in which marches in a frenzied demonstration beat and whip themselves with chains and branches.

The "Iman" and "Mahdi" (Messhiah):
Shiites created the office of the "Imam" ("leader" or "guide"), who were infallible, one for each generation, the only source of religious instruction and guidance, and all in direct descendence of Ali. There were 12 Imams since Ali; the last one, the 12th, went into hiding in 940, and he will emerge later to rule the world as "Mahdi" ("Messiah"). For this reason they are also called the "Imamites" or "Twelvers".

- The present "Ayatollahs", ("signs of God") see themselves as joint caretakers of the office of the Imam, until he returns at the end of time. The "Ayatollah Khomeini" claimed that he was a descendant of the 7th Imam, and hence the rightful ruler of the Shiites.

[Yupster]

6. My favorite site

to get information on Islam is

www.askimam.com

Just search key words and you'll get your info. Every question you can think of has been asked and answered.

[LynnTheDem]

7. Make sure you point out that almost ALL Sunni branches have SHIA.

Sunni & Shia inter-marry & have for years, and have NEVER had any civil wars.

All This Talk of Civil War, Now This

Odd, isn't it? There never has been a civil war in Iraq. I have never heard a single word of animosity between Sunnis and Shias in Iraq

I ask myself why the Americans are rubbing this Sunni-Shia thing so hard. Let's turn the glass round the other way. If a violent Sunni movement wished to evict the Americans from Iraq - and there is indeed a resistance movement fighting very cruelly to do just that - why would it want to turn the Shia population of Iraq, 60 per cent of Iraqis, against them? The last thing such a resistance would want is to have the majority of Iraqis against it.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles360.htm

Why we say the troops must get out of Iraq

The US warns of the danger of civil war, but at the same time it is setting up structures of rule which institiutionalise sectarian and ethnic divisions. Like all occupying imperialist powers, the US can only maintain its dominance by playing different groups off against one another.

As political analyst Wameed Nadhmi told Egypt's Al-Ahram Weekly newspaper, "the US aim is to weaken Iraq-to divide it on sectarian and ethnic lines while keeping it geographically intact."

The warning of an imminent civil war has no historical basis.

We should also be very suspicious of US claims that the mainly Sunni-based armed resistance is targeting Shias. For example, after the horrific dual bombings in Karbala and Baghdad in March that killed over 200 people, hundreds of people in the Sunni city of Fallujah-the heart of the armed resistance-queued to donate blood to the mostly Shia victims.

http://www.iso.org.au/socialistworker/531/p6c.html

The Sunni Versus Shia Myth

Much that has been written about the ‘division’ between the Sunni and Shia in Iraq is not only a total distortion of the demographics of the Iraqi population, it also feeds into the propaganda campaign of ‘divide and rule’ tactics that even opponents of the war and occupation can fall into the trap of accepting as true...

http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-0156.html

As regards the Shias in the south, their divide from Baghdad has been much exaggerated as part of the anti-Saddam propaganda. It is totally overlooked that the historic Sunni-Shia divide no longer exists.

http://asianaffairs.com/may2003/us_invasion.htm

On Iraq Division

Iraq does not divide logically or neatly between Sunni Arab and Shia Arab. They live intermixed in much of Iraq and in Baghdad, where an estimated 60 percent of the population is Shia, 20 percent Sunni Arab, and 20 percent Kurd and Turkman. Sunni Arabs live in the southern cities of Basra and Zubayr and along the borders with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Iraq's Arabs-Sunni or Shia-do not now and never have sought division.

There is a long tradition of inter-communal cooperation and intermarriage. Many Sunni Arab clans and families, including Saddam's, have Sunni and Shia branches. Iraq's Sunni and Shia Arabs are Iraqi first and pan-Arab last. Arab nationalist sympathies have a long history in Iraq.

http://www.menavista.com/articles/yaphe.htm

Sowing The Seeds Of Civil War In Iraq

Some Shia and Sunni religious leaders formed an anti-sectarian front, the Muslim Scholars Committee. The MSC has organised demonstrations in Baghdad and other cities encouraging Muslims to unite and pray at each others' mosques, where secularpeople are also welcome. The committee invited over 30 secular and Christian organisations to attend the First Founding Iraqi Conference Against the US Occupation. This significant development attracted little media coverage, as it contradicts the notion that Iraqis are incapable of working collectively.

The western media predicted that civil war was imminent after explosions at Shia mosques killed hundreds of people in March. But instead, these explosions generated a massive show of unity across Iraq. People blamed the US (and Israel) for planning the atrocities or turning a blind eye to the perpetrators.

Bush and Blair continue to peddle the myth, beloved of old colonialists, that Iraqis will start a civil war if the "benevolent" presence of the occupation forces is removed.

It is the US-led presence itself which is dividing Iraqis now. The US is deepening a split between a minority for and an overwhelming majority against the US-led forces.

-Sami Ramadani is a senior lecturer in sociology at London Metropolitan University and was a political exile from Saddam's regime

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-ramadani030704.htm

Dahr Jamail; Unembedded in Iraq

The Shia/Sunni rift is largely a CIA generated myth. There are countless tribes and marriages alike that are both Shia/Sunni. There are mosques here where they pray together.

There is the possibility of war if the Kurds go independent, but the more likely possibility of that war would be Turkey invading Kurdistan before any Shia/Sunni action would occur regarding this.

Another Iraqi man pointed out that if there were a civil war, no Shia or Kurdish attack on Fallujah could ever possibly compare to the devastation the US military has caused there. I think he makes a good point.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20669

End the Iraq War

The Bush administration has promoted the idea that Iraq will descend into civil war and chaos without the occupation. This argument is no more credible than the “terrorist base” argument.

Unlike the United States, Iraq has never had a full-fledged civil war. There have been various revolts and revolutions, but never a full-fledged civil war on the scale of the American civil war. This propaganda about the inevitability of civil war if the US pulls out plays off stereotypes and prejudices many Americans have about “third world” peoples – that “they” are extremely unstable, have lots of civil wars, frequent coups and major ethnic tensions. Such stereotypes simply do not apply to Iraq.

http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/Iraq.html

What "Sunni-Shia conflict"?

[battleknight24]

9. Seriously... I was beginning to wonder why I had so much trouble...

... founding information about the Shia/Sunni "conflict."

My 10+ page paper is already done and I have to turn in a rough draft tomorrow... it actually has turned out to be about the different beliefs and traditions of these two denominations... It was supposed to be about clashes and conflicts.


Your post was VERY interesting!


Peace,

[LynnTheDem]

10. Yes the US steno-media isn't very willing to either learn the facts or, if

they actually do already know the facts, to pass them on to the General Public in this country.

It's like street gangs; in one gang they'll have Catholics, Protestants, etc. Their rival gang will have Catholics, Protestants, etc. And each gang tries to knock the other gang off.

They're all Americans (Iraqis), and their religions (Sunni, Shia) aren't a major factor; their GANG (tribal) affiliation is.

Good luck with the paper, hope you ace it! :)