I agree with Bush's speech. Slavery is an important issue.

[Armstead]

I am totally cynical about why George brought it up today. Hearing him talking about it was jarring, and I am sure he is using it for stupid political reasons.

But I am glad he brought it up.

Modern slavery is one of the most important human-rights problems today. It should have been a central international issue years ago. There is no excuse for ignoring it. It is not a partisan issue.

All over the world, millions of people are enslaved and living short, miserable lives because of it. Sex slaves. Child slaves. People held prisoner on plantations as slaves. All over the world.

Sorry if I sound like a self-righteous prig, but this really is a heartbreaking issue -- and a major problem today.Whatever the reasons, I am glad he brought the subject up. It is one of the major failings of our society that we are ignoring it.


Read about it, and then see how you feel.

http://www.antislavery.org/

http://www.iabolish.com/

http://users.erols.com/bcccsbs/bass/bass.html

[Maple]

1. Except it has nothing to do

with the issue at hand.

[Armstead]

4. I don't give a good goddamn!!!!

In the fabulopus 90's, it was a well-known fact that millions of people were being enslaved.

We ignored it because it was not politically fashionable.

I don't give a good goddamn WHY Bush brought it up. If he can get all of the right-wing fundies up in arms about it, I say more power to him.

[Maple]

5. So you got distracted I see

Lots of things are important...famine, AIDS etc

NONE of which had anything to do with Bush's reason for going to the UN

Try to focus...it's how they get away with what they do

Short attention spans like yours

[Armstead]

7. No, I've been worked up about this for years you twit

This is not about short attention spans. This is about a fundamental wrong that we -- ESPECIALLY THE GLOBALIZERS WHO CONDONE VARIOUS MANIFESTATIONS OF SLAVERY -- should have made a central issue years ago.

[Maple]

9. So has everyone else

but that was not the issue today.

Focus.

[Armstead]

24. No, if that were true it wouldn't be so prevalent today

Read about all of the excuses why we have put up with this crap for so long. There's no reason for such an evil to continue to exist on such a scale right under our noses.

[Maple]

29. It's not as prevalent today

But hunger and disease are.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Armstead]

26. PS

Global organizations ban the practice. Nudge, nudge, wink,wink.

Then why do so many multinational corporations provide such ready markets for the products of factories and plantations that rely on slave labor, oir sweatshops that are just one step above it?

[Maple]

33. Just because they don't get paid

YOUR wage...doesn't make it slavery.

Check the definiton of slavery, and chuck the ideology.

[Bandit]

54. So you believe the US should be World Policeman on this issue

That is what this is all about. Bush* was saying that the US was right to defeat a tyrant and that there are more issues the US wants to address, would like UN support and listed a few of them. Granted they are horible but do you really want the Empire of America to Police the world with Freeper like Christian Values?

[AP]

2. He's trying to distract middle class Americans from realizing that

if were all working our asses off, and we're still going into debt, and we have no dignity, then we're just middle class wage slaves.

[whathappened]

3. yes you are right

but do you think for a minute he gives 2 shits about people and what kind of life they have to go thru , it is all him all the time and no room for anybody esle who don't kiss his ass , this was about poitics , nothing esle , first i have ever heard him mention anything about slaves

[Armstead]

6. I don't care about his motives.

I agree, he is probably using it as smoke-and mirrors.

But we have ignotred this problem for far toio long.

If Beezabulb himself came out against it, I'd support him on it.

We all should be absolutely ashamed of ourselves for turning our backs on the millions of peopel who are subjected to this. REad the links, and normal political games pale in comparison.

[Maple]

8. Still not the issue

Please try to concentrate

[Armstead]

11. No, I can walk and chew gum at the same time

I am well aware of the issue.

George got in over his head in Iraq. Now he's trying to get all of the nations he thumbed his nose at to help bail him out.

He also threw in some other issues into the mix, to avoid looking like he is begging, and to make people forget what happened.

SO FUCKING WHAT?

He brought out an importanbt issue, and I am glad he did,. And when I see DUers -- who are supposedly an enlightened bunch -- making jokes about this incrtedible tragic issue -- I have to say something.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

19. Go take a cold shower

It sounds like you need one to cool your rhetoric.

Then focus on THIS issue.

Not 3000 other ones

[quilp]

16. It not only matters what is said. It matters who said it.

Bush is a total hypocrite. His use of this issue has probably damaged it more than helped it. He has as much credibilty in this as he has in his concern for "democracy" in Iraq.

[ET Awful]

46. Think of it this way . . .

If you take your car to the mechanic to get your transmission looked at, you don't ask him to give you a test for prostate cancer.

Both are serious problems, but only one is proper to address at the time.

By bringing this up now, he's just trying to distract attention from the issues at hand.

If he truly cared about the issue of slavery, he would address it separately so it would receive full attention, not present it as secondary and as a distraction.

[Armstead]

47. A better analogy

If the mechanic looks at the transmission, and says "By the way, your brakes are about to wear out and you'd better do something about that too" I'd say it was advice worth listening to.

One of the major problems I also have about Bush is their "selective" conserns about freedom and human rights. I agree that his administration only seems to care about such things when it is politically helpful. In that regard, they are hypocrites.

But at the same time one has to be pragmatic. We here in America tend to accept too many evils and abuses in the world. I think your average conservative person DOES care about such things. But the media and politicians keep the real issues quiet, or make one thing the "flavor of the month" and then move on. (i.e. women in Afghanistan.)

The real problem and challenge we face -- whether Republican or Democrat -- is to work to create conditions in the world in which things like slavery and abuses like Sadaam did commit on his people are unacceptable.

Bush is going about it all wrong. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Bringing the subject of slavery to widerspread attention is one of those times.

[FlaGranny]

48. Armstead,

have you considered that whenever Bush mentions a concern for something he actually either cuts funds for the mentioned cause or passes legislation that impacts that cause unfavorably?

We all agree this is a real problem, but it doesn't give me confidence that Bush has taken up the "cause."

[Solomon]

52. One step at a time Armstead.

First we get rid of Bush, then we work on the other problems. You will never get relief while Bush is in office.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. And what is the Chimp going to do about it, Armstead?

Nothing.

Important issue but not germaine to the reason that Chimp was at the UN.







(I understand that it's an important issue. But please leave the issue outside the context of the Chimp. He doesn't give a shit about it. Smoke. Mirrors. Look over here! He went to the UN and said nothing about the most important isssue facing America. He didn't clearly ask for help. He didn't apologize. He talked about slaves. :wtf: Please bring this issue up again, outside the context of the Chimperor, who couldn't give a flying fuck.)

[Armstead]

20. I have in the past

And threads about it sink like stones because it isn't a sexy "Democratic issue" or something.

Just read the damn links and find some news stories about it. This shit does matter. Bush may do nothing else, but if he even gets attention paid to it, that's a good thing, regardless of his motives, IMO.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. Alright, I believe you.

I'll check into the issue further. That being said, why do you think the Chimp brought up one of your "key" issues?

[Armstead]

30. Two possibilities

I figure there are two basic possibilities. Eitehr:

1)He actually does have enough human compassion to be moved by an issue that is horrific and tragic. And so he wanted to put it on the agenda.

2)He cynically saw it as a way to change the subject from his basic faiulure in Iraq, and to try and "butter up" the world with an issue guaranteed to tug at the heartstrings.

or 3) Some combination of the above.

And I don't care. If he even moves the attention of the world slightly more to this issue, I say that's a good thing. Some issues transcend political divisions. This is one of 'em.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

45. 2) is my choice.

However, I understand the frustration. That's what makes it even more maddening. Taking an important issue and prostituting it. Words can't describe it.

[Armstead]

31. Posting error

Thrice posted because of DU maintainance work.

[Armstead]

32. Two possibilities

I figure there are two basic possibilities. Eitehr:

1)He actually does have enough human compassion to be moved by an issue that is horrific and tragic. And so he wanted to put it on the agenda.

2)He cynically saw it as a way to change the subject from his basic faiulure in Iraq, and to try and "butter up" the world with an issue guaranteed to tug at the heartstrings.

or 3) Some combination of the above.

And I don't care. If he even moves the attention of the world slightly more to this issue, I say that's a good thing. Some issues transcend political divisions. This is one of 'em.

[KoKo]

39. Armstead....it's just we don't see him doing anything about it...that's

what the fuss is about....but thanks for your links...many of us knew about this...and feel it's a huge problem...as much as female rape in the AirForce Academy and the other services and on the streets of our town...and I appreciate your bringing this up....we forget much....with the campaigns..and aren't focusing on issues.

Some of us..thought that Bush was "Crass" brining it up when he's begging for money and soldiers from UN...that's all....but again, many thanks for the links and attention to this.....it is a problem...and why we need a strong UN which we can get after....now that we are focused on them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. Once we rid ourselves of Chimp...

...issues like this will become important again. And nothing will come of the issue until that, The Removal, is taken care of. I still feel bad because it's obviously an important issue to Armstead. So much crap, so little time.

[TahitiNut]

50. At least one other possibility.

Smirky McSockpuppet read the words written for him as cover and distraction for crony corporatist practices which exacerbate this human condition globally.

I see very little in 'black or white' terms, and enslavement is not exception. Coercion of human beings by others who'd (disproportionately) benefit from the labors of those so coerced is the fundamental theme. Slaves in antebellum America were 'free' to the extent they could walk off the plantation -- but how far and at what cost? All peoples, whether 'North" or 'South' who, either individually or under the specious cover of their legal systems that 'respected property', were participants in slavery. The notion that the 'North' wasn't participating in slavery is (IMHO) noxiously specious -- insofar as those states participated in and coopertaed with the coercion.

In summary, whenever the net real compensation for labor is materially reduced as a result of coercive practices on the part of those who benefit from that labor, we have some degree of enslavement. When, in a (local or global) society, we have some who, in the exercise of their political and economic power, maintain or exacerbate conditions that create a great socioeconomic schism between those who are operating at one end of Maslov's hierarchy of needs and those operating at the other end, with the result that the compensation of labor is diminished by amplified considerations of survival itself (highest on the hierarchy), we have some degree of coercion and enslavement. The question, as I see it, is what kind of distribution on this hierarchy do we accept? Bimodal or 'normal'? What standard deviation do we accept in this distribution? These, IMHO, are measures of enslavement.

[liberalmuse]

10. You don't sound self-righteous...

this is an extremely important issue, but Bush isn't the right person to address it. He has shown he doesn't give a damn about the average American, nevermind victims of slavery or oppression. In his speeches, he likes to throw references to 'torture' and 'rape rooms' and 'sex slavery' for dramatic effect, so people will think he is compassionate. I do hope the U.N. brings this issue to the forefront. I used to work with runaway teens, and there are some real creeps who prey on them. They are those guys who wear business suits, go to church and have families, but who don't hesitate to use a child for whatever purpose. This is an intolerable situation here in America, and around the world. That wealthier nations haven't done more to draw attention to, and help stop the sex trade industry is disappointing.

On edit: correcting grammar, and adding that this is an EXTREMELY important issue. I'm offended that Bush is using this issue merely as an embellishment for his crappy speeches.

[Spoon]

13. Thanks for the links.

Even though you proclaimed your cynicism with his motives, prepare to be flamed anyway. Only Bush bashing, candidate pumping/trashing, and pointless banter is allowed here.

[frank frankly]

17. thanks for the links

Drawing genuine attention to this is the last thing President Stupid intended, so I welcome it!

This is very important, and, incidentally, it's very easy to concentrate on an issue such as slavery while staying focused on getting rid of the Nazi in Chief.

[GreenArrow]

18. it's funny

because I absolutely detest that man, and seldom if ever agree with any thing he says, and I have no idea why he was making an issue of it in this speech where the issue is completely unrelated, but I do agree with him on this. The whole issue just makes me feel sad and sick.

[Jacobin]

21. It's like Jefferson Davis decrying American Slavery

It's total fucking hogwash, and the fact that he spewed this rhertoric to cleanse his bloody hands and insult the U.N. will set your cause back a century.

Now, whenever the issue comes up, it will be connected with Smirk pissing in the face of the U.N. and trying to distract from the failed invasion and attempted conquest of Iraq.

Methinks it DOES matter how and in what context this issue is brought up. And by whom.

[Armstead]

22. Why was Wellstone the only Democrat who stood up about it?

Okay I exagerate a little. Madeline Albright also addressed it in the Clinton era.

But this issue has been kept on the back burner while millions have lost their existance because of it.

I don't care if it's a pure hearted Democrat or a blackhearted Republican who puts it in front of the public.

If our side was doing our job, it wouldn't be the world's biggest dirty little secret.

Those who wish to put a partisan spin on it are welcome to. But I choose to see it as a human issue, and we should link arms with Jerry Falwell if that's what it takes to end this scourge.

[Jacobin]

25. I've read a few articles about it

It's inexcusable that it exists in developed countries. We actually have police forces and laws against it. It will be hard to eradicate it from Africa and Asia any time soon.

It's sometimes hard to fathom the depths of man's inhumanity to man.

[Solomon]

27. Well said.

Bush is looking for an easier war this time. He can't invade Syria or Iran because of the debacle in Iraq. There's already a war on drugs, and a war on terrorism. Now he wants a war on slavery. Something to distract, distract, distract. He never finishes anything. He just goes from shit to shit to shit.

Maybe now we can have a Department of Slavery only somehow we will have trouble funding it.

Don't anybody hold their breath.

[cally]

36. I completely agree!!

I don't care who says it or why but the world must focus on modern slavery. We all just look away too often while humans are enslaved and it is wrong. I agree with your passion and I am disgusted that the world has done so little to stop this.


I also am well aware that the chimp used it to draw attention away from the debacle in Iraq. I, too, can walk and chew gum at the same time. I'll use any attention to stop slavery.

[SOteric]

37. Women ought to be especially interested in this

as there is a common practice in the global community of seducing young respectable women into sexual slavery with adverts for glamourous, high-paying careers with flexible hours.

I, too, have been following these issues for years, and am glad to have some attention payed them.

Regardless of that sentiment, I do acknowledge Bush is likely using the issue to destract and/or to benefit himself by association.

I regard it as possible, albeit difficult, to devote attention to the issue without indulging in denial and without letting ourselves be distracted from his ongoing perfidy.

Good post, Armstead.

[Maple]

38. HOW EASILY BUSH DISTRACTS YOU ALL

No wonder he's running the country while you all bash each other.

Attention span of a gnat, the lot of you.

[frank frankly]

40. that's rude, maple

it is also incorrect to assume anyone writing about this is distracted by it. If Bush had tried to deflect attention by pointing out the Catholic Priest molestations, I would use the opportunity to highlight the truth about that ungoing tragedy.

i think you're being rude.

[Armstead]

41. You don't like it don't read it

We are all supposed to be obsessed by one issue and one issue only 24/7/365?

Bullshit.

And before you cast stones like "attention span of a gnat" I'd remind you that some people here have been concerned about and/or working in our own way on various issues for years...decades.

We didn't just decide on Jan. 2001 that a glorious and wonderful world had suddenly gone bad merely because a Republican took over the White House.

I could return a remark in your spirit and say that some of you fiddled while Rome was burning long before Bush took office....But I won't.

[SOteric]

42. My world is not

as black and white as is the limited thinking implied in your unwarranted castigation.

I'm not distracted by Bush. I have an ongoing belief in his perfidy. That doesn't make slavery right by comparison, or unimportant because of his duplicity.

[IrateCitizen]

55. How you can sport a UU icon is beyond me, Maple...

... when almost all you seem to do on these boards is display intolerance for other points of view, smug superiority and condescension.

As a practicing UU, I would hope that your real-life persona is infintely more open-minded than your online one.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. Human rights is a huge problem...

I heard one account I think it was on CNN that North Korea can be compared very much to Nazi Germany. Unfortunately there really isn't an easy answer to this problem. The best we can do right now is use diplomacy to try and put pressure on evil leaders to change their ways.

[Plaid Adder]

49. Yes, absolutely, I'm glad he brought it up too...

...because maybe now we can talk about how George W. Bush's approach to the world is going to make the problem worse:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/plaidder/27149.html

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[Armstead]

53. That's fine -- But at least we need to TALK about it

I agree with what you wrote on your website, and I see the policies that Bush AND all Corporatists contributing to it.

And I would love to see Democrats call GW's bluff on this by pushing for more aggressive plans to combat modern slavery.

But the sad fact is that the rennaisance of slavery over the past decade reflects IMO how humankind is sliding backward on the evolutionary scale in general.

Things that were once unacceptable are now standard business practice. And as a result we put up with cruel bullshit that we would railed against in the past.

In some instances, slavery is part of an ingrained traditional culture of a nation. But in the past we would (as a world community) have condemned and fought to stop it, rather then accept it and turn out backs -- or, as in the case of Global Capital, taken the bennies under the table.

That's what modern slavery represents. That's not a Democrat or republican issue. So anything thet forces us all to examine our conscience and feel some personal pain about it and hopefully start doing something about it is positive, IMHO.

[LeahMira]

51. No conflict here...

All over the world, millions of people are enslaved and living short, miserable lives because of it. Sex slaves. Child
slaves. People held prisoner on plantations as slaves. All over the world.

Sorry if I sound like a self-righteous prig, but this really is a heartbreaking issue -- and a major problem
today.Whatever the reasons, I am glad he brought the subject up. It is one of the major failings of our society that
we are ignoring it.


You're not a self-righteous prig at all.

A couple of thoughts:

Those people held prisoner on plantations as slaves are often suffering under a military dictatorship or another similar type of system that is supported by the U.S. I am thinking of Guatemala and other Central American nations in particular.

I suspect that Bush's solution would be to put all those ten-year-old sex slaves to work sewing Nike sneakers for 15 cents a day and let them imagine that if they just work hard enough they one day could be running the factory and providing gainful employment for a slew of otherup-and-coming ten-year-olds. Pardon my cynicism, but really what other kinds of solutions does he have to offer? Putting the perpetrators in jail? Sure. Those who can afford to trek over to Thailand for a little kid can afford a good lawyer back here in the States, and those who are selling baby sister aren't doing that because they have many choices about how to survive in the world. Wonder who goes to jail, eh?

I suspect that Bush brought the subject up as a way of deflecting attention from the sufferings of the people in the Middle East. Given a choice, I wonder what the average ten-year-old Iraqi would choose... being a sex slave or being deprived for life of an arm or a leg. Quantifying suffering is a strange way of looking at the world, IMO.

I also suspect he meant it as a way of shaming the U.N. by pointing out that the U.N. is not successful in addressing this and other serious world problems. I can't say that I entirely disagree with that, but I don't believe for a minute that the U.N. has done nothing to address those problems.

Finally, I think you have your "favorite cause" here. Mine is the American Indians. I do what I can to support American Indians and to speak for their causes, when a discussion comes up about these causes I feel I can jump in with some credible thoughts, and I wish not only that I personally could do more to help, but also that more citizens of this nation paid attention to their concerns (i.e. Cobell vs. Norton... a truly shameful behavior on the part of the U.S. government). But each individual has his/her own special interests and concerns, and I respect you for yours. There's a lot of work to be done out there, and we need people willing to actually work for the causes they believe in... not simply spout platitudes about how sad it all is.

Frankly, I haven't seen any cause that Bush has personally supported either with his personal time or his personal donations, so whether he is concerned about sex slaves or not is a moot point. I don't mind a certain percentage of my tax dollars going to help people in need wherever they are in the world, and Bush seems to be sending my tax dollars and yours here and there. That's OK, but where is his own personal commitment? He could lead by example, couldn't he? I think his only personal commitment is to the oil companies that make him richer and more powerful. That's too bad.

If, as I suspect, the plight of children is one that is close to your heart, by all means you have my support and respect! In no way does your "cause" take away from mine. We are all trying to heal our own corner of the world. That is what unites us.