There should be no college deferments in the coming draft.

[Swede]

Senator's sons and daughters must be included. Or will it be the same old same old like Viet Nam?

[POAS]

1. No deferments of any kind other than

extreme physical handicap. I'm not talking flat feet here!

[BrotherBuzz]

11. Wrong!

College students can receive postponements until the end of the term, or of the year for seniors. However, Ministry students are exempt if in accepted divinity schools. So, just where will do you think all the rich white-wing fundy kids will be going to college? Hmmm....

[POAS]

17. I didn't mean to imply that this is the case NOW

I was expressing my opinion of what the new draft should look like.

It is in the power of Congress to change those deferment rules, and they should.

[BrotherBuzz]

19. That's cool...

I was just venting about a loophole that is sure to be exploited by the rich white-wing chickenhawks. :)

[POAS]

24. And that is why we need to keep the pressure on to

close the loopholes when the draft starts

[BrotherBuzz]

25. Agree. All this dumb draftee, that added......

"no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time."(Rumsfeld), wants is a level playing field. You know, as awful as it sounds, reinstating the draft may be the quickest way to end the Bush* war once and for all. Cripes, I don't want to encounter thousands of fundy divinity students either!

[POAS]

28. Did he really say this

""no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time."(Rumsfeld)"

DId he forget about the limbs and lives lost? No wonder they don't fund the veterans the way they should.

[BrotherBuzz]

29. Full quote

"If you think back to when we had the draft, people were brought in; they were paid some fraction of what they could make in the civilian manpower market because they were without choices. Big categories were exempted -- people that were in college, people that were teaching, people that were married. It varied from time to time, but there were all kinds of exemptions. And what was left was sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time." - Rumsfeld, 08 January 2003

Without choices? That ass Rumsfeld chapped my butt when he said that! No value? Tell that to the families of the soldiers that died in Vietnam, or better yet, say that to a busted up vet! I dare him!!! I double dare him!!!

[MichiganVote]

18. 1. There won't be a draft 2. My sons are not available for Bush ideology

3. My sons are not available to prove a point to republicans
4. Grow up, war for anyone is not a game
5. If you feel so strongly about it, sign up yourself

[POAS]

22. Hey guy

I'm as anti-war as anyone you can name.

Until the pukes on the right realize that their asses are on the line along with my kids then they will remain insulated from and immune to the realities associated with war.

I have always been against the all volunteer armed forces for several reasons. Not the least of which is the isolation from society as a whole it puts the military in.

We have allowed the elite classes to avoid the responsibilities associated with protecting our country while sending the children of the poor off to die. WHile Cheney had "more important things to do" during Nam my friends were dying there.

I hope you don't ever have a son or daughter go to war for Bush. But if other children must go then all children must be in that risk pool even the children of Cheney and Bush.

[MichiganVote]

31. The US has averaged a war in my lifetime approximately every

10 years. No one has been isolated from the military in that time. As I said, I've had enough of ideologies that kill our young people. Its time we quit but I don't expect anyone to listen to me --- yet. It has always been the case that elites or others have found a way out.

Even a "draft" will not change that. If anything, it could be worse.
The future of the military will include specialists (those who have achieved the best education or are the brightest will be in this group) and the soldier who is trained to do one thing - kill or be killed.

That's it. Guards, cooks, mechanics...all are about to become a thing of the past. All those claims on the part of the military to train and educate enlistees in job skills are just more hype.

It's a nice fantasy to think that elite youth would willingly serve but that is not a reality. Anyway when this government sells that shit, it is sure to mean one thing--another total screw up.

For me, for my family, we've about had it with this culture. Time to pull up stakes. This country permits its elites to war with others to further an economic agenda that few people even want to live anymore.
Inventing threats, creating chaos both within and outside this country, cheating, robbing, ignoring what people want, raiding a treasury, the list just goes on and on. Its not fun to live in America anymore, its become hard and hateful.

In war, friends die. That is what war does.

[POAS]

33. As I said I am also anti war but

we are in a war now and who is fighting it. Mainly poor folk with either a patriotic fervor or no alternatives outside the military. That will not change unless the elite caste in this country is forced to partake of the suffering.

The country, as never before in our history, is being protected from the suffering and real costs of going to war.

There is little to no financial burden being felt thanks to the insane Bush tax cuts.

There is no sacrifice by the industrial base as happened during WWII when entire industries were mobilized for the war effort.

And there is no suffering, or fear of suffering and death, for the vast majority of average Americans because the soldiers doing the dying are all self selected.

Charlie Rangel proposed re-instating the draft several years ago and I agree with him. I think it is time provided there are NO deferments other than extreme physical handicap.

The Bush administration knows we need a draft. The only thing keeping them from saying so is the uprising they know will follow.

[MichiganVote]

34. I agree that the "wealthy" are not feeling a financial pinch in

comparison to the middle class or the poor. Education, health care and money for basic subsistence have been and are being greatly reduced for those in need. That has been true since Reagan; the same could be argued since Nam'.

As to there being no alternatives for low income or middle income young men and women outside the military, that I don't agree with. There are alternatives. A draft, however, removes the alternatives and places social benefits on a 'if you survive' basis. Either way, there is no question that outsourcing, illegal immigration, and a slow business climate have reduced job opportunities and that has accounted for the perception on the part of some that economic opportunities are enhanced in the military.

You know the military is about the poorest employer around. Oh they make themselves attractive to some kids but a year or two in the ranks usually clears their heads about that. Everything the military promises they essentially quantify or outright take away. The military has avoided a draft by enacting provisions in the Reserve and Guard contracts that essentially extend service beyond what is customary. The result= reduced enlistments b/c youth get older, grow wiser, make other plans etc.

The idea of a draft to make elites accountable, to make them aware of the seriousness of war, to make them somehow 'pay' in lives, money or inconvenience is not the purpose of the military. The purpose of the military is to protect or defend this country in the event of a threat. (Obviously this has been distorted by Bush &Co.)Frankly, I'll take a poor or middle class kid who has experienced hardship and knows what limitations mean over a 'private benjamin' anyday.

America is a big country and some communities have suffered more as a result of the violence of the past five years. That is a fact.

Lastly, there are ample reasons not to utilize people with mental illness in the military. Physical impairments alone are not sufficient.

[Jon_da_brockman]

2. Heh, I have recently been thinking...

if the draft does occur, how much you wanna bet that the percentage of Registered Democrats to Republicans will be woefully lopsided?

[bowens43]

3. You are naive

The sons and daughters of the rich and powerful will not be put in harms way.

BTW , why would you want to send more children to deaths by denying deferments to those who can get them?

If anything we should be arguing for more deferments that are easier to get.

[jobycom]

5. The idea is that there are only a certain number of draftees allowed

per quarter or year or whatever. Then you won't increase the number of people drafted, you will simply take away the deferments that the wealthy use to scoot out of it, and give blue collar kids greater odds of not going.

I agree it won't happen, but it's one of those "oughta" kind of things. Hopefully there will be no draft, and no need for one, as soon as we imprison the Traitor in Chief, and his cabinet filth.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

7. There has to be. One soldier KIA'd yesterday was on his third tour.

If there is no draft the men and women in the military now will go insane.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

30. No. I think that SUV drivers ought to be the first to go.

[journalist3072]

10. On his 3rd tour?

That's absolutely disgusting. Our military is being stretched so thin now. I just keep thinking about how on the eve of the Iraq invasion, the military leaders were watching a slide presentation on the upcoming Iraq invasion, based on the military plans put together by the WH & the Pentagon. When they got to the slide on post-war planning, it said "To Be Provided." Well, unfortunately, we are living with the consequences of the "To Be Provided" administration right now.

[babylonsister]

6. That should also apply to Governors' sons, like Pataki.

His son wants a deferment to go to law school. :eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1577570

Governor Pataki's Son Joining The Marines


Jun 24, 2005 9:00 am US/Eastern

(1010 WINS) (ALBANY) Gov. George Pataki said Thursday his eldest son, Teddy, is about to be commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps, but hopes to get a deferment to attend law school.

"But once you take the oath and swear the oath, it's up to the Marines at that point," the Republican governor said, adding that his son would be sworn in on Saturday, the day after his father turns 60.

Pataki said that if his son was not granted a deferment and is sent to Iraq, "I think I would feel the way every parent feels, which is tremendous pride in the courage and the patriotism of your child, along with the appropriate concern whenever any of our loved ones are placed in harm's way." //more

[jobycom]

9. I'd love to see deferments for anyone who makes below the poverty line

or whose parents do. Those who benefit least from society should be the last ones required to risk their lives for it.

Just dreaming.

[PsN2Wind]

12. There are very few that are unable

to perform some function that the military requires. Those that are physically unable to perform combat assignments can free up many personnel that can. IF there is a draft there should be virtually NO deferments. Those of us that have served are very aware that for every combat troop there are multiple support people, so no deferments for bad knees, anal cysts and other minor ailments that kept many out of the draft in Viet Nam.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. The kids of the rich and well-connected will not have to serve

The republican majority openly abuse their power, act unethically and sometimes illegally and mock or shame anybody who tries to point out their blatant hypocrisy. They cheat in ways large and small, just because they can. They'll pack the draft boards with their own and the deferments will go to protect their own. You can bank on it.

These chickenhawks mocked Kerry's purple hearts; they know no shame.

It will be as it always has been, our children will die in their place. Buy hey, it's not all bad, they'll build a nice monument for them when it's finally over. :eyes:

[Vickers]

14. No deferments if anyone in your immediate family owns a Humvee

or has a plasma TV.

[sam sarrha]

15. and the lord knows we need another lawyer... you go boy!!

[James T. Kirk]

16. There is not going to be a draft any time soon.

The only ones who want a draft are those like Rangel and his ilk who want to instill some kind of whacko service-to-the-state ethic in young people. It's just not gonna happen.

[Swede]

20. Rangel introduced the draft in order that “rich and poor equally share

the burden of the war,” . This is the ilk you speak of?

[BrotherBuzz]

23. That summarizes Rangel's bill - nothing more, nothing less...

unless you listen to the Faux spin...;)

[James T. Kirk]

27. And if nobody gets drafted, that would treat the rich and poor equally.

Then only volunteers would fight.
It seems some people want a draft just so they can be against it.

[James T. Kirk]

26. I don't want the rich or poor to be drafted. Rangel wants them all drafted

I oppose the draft. Rangel was in favor of it. His bill was thee closest we have come to reinstating that frightful institution.

I oppose those who are in favor of the draft. I oppose Rangel. And yes, that is the vile ilk I speak of. If he wants to send poor kids to fight against the war just so they can die in an equal proportion to rich people, I don't see how that helps poor people, or even rich people for that matter.

[BBradley]

32. Agreed. I'm not a pawn for Rangel to use for political gain.

Rich, or poor, nobody should be fighting this war against their will.

[James T. Kirk]

35. Yeah! If Rangel wants to fight so much, HE can go fight in Afghanistan!

[Mizmoon]

21. It was in place back when college was elite

Now that anyone can go to college (theoretically) they will find another way to allow the children of the elite to avoid service. Maybe they will go back to allowing draftees to hire replacements for themselves like they did during the Civil War.

[davepc]

36. Ever bother to actually read the selective service web site?

HOW THE DRAFT HAS CHANGED SINCE VIETNAM

If a draft were held today, it would be dramatically different from the one held during the Vietnam War. A series of reforms during the latter part of the Vietnam conflict changed the way the draft operated to make it more fair and equitable. If a draft were held today, there would be fewer reasons to excuse a man from service.

Before Congress made improvements to the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress toward a degree.


Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the academic year.

If a draft were held today, local boards would better represent the communities they serve.
The changes in the new draft law made in 1971 included the provision that membership on the boards was required to be as representative as possible of the racial and national origin of registrants in the area served by the board.

A draft held today would use a lottery to determine the order of call.
Before the lottery was implemented in the latter part of the Vietnam conflict, Local Boards called men classified 1-A, 18 1/2 through 25 years old, oldest first. This resulted in uncertainty for the potential draftees during the entire time they were within the draft-eligible age group. A draft held today would use a lottery system under which a man would spend only one year in first priority for the draft - either the calendar year he turned 20 or the year his deferment ended. Each year after that, he would be placed in a succeedingly lower priority group and his liability for the draft would lessen accordingly. In this way, he would be spared the uncertainty of waiting until his 26th birthday to be certain he would not be drafted.

http://www.sss.gov/viet.htm

People need to keep in mind that the selective serive system we have in place now was modified heavily by JIMMY CARTER when he reactivated it in 1979.