Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A question for religious DU'ers WRT CIA paying fake clerics.....

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:34 AM
Original message
A question for religious DU'ers WRT CIA paying fake clerics.....
This is not designed to be a flame war, but an actual question. I am agnostic who grew up as a Christian, but turned away from organized religion because on examination, I found I didn't require that in my life to be spiritual. That is neither here nor there.

Reading the article about the CIA paying fake Muslims clerics/mullahs to spread "moderate, pro-american" sentiment in the Middle East struck me as a disgusting tactic, although I read a couple of DU'ers that actually thought this was a good idea.

I don't. I have always believed that being a cleric of any faith was a vocation (a calling from God if you will). I find the notion of hiring people to pretend to be muslims clerics to be disrespectful and downright blasphemous and I wonder how DU'ers who are aligned with particular faiths would feel to find that their particular priest, priestess, rabbi, whatever was a paid operative of a particular government?

I understand the nature of propaganda, but I wonder if this is really a good idea.

What are your thoughts on it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think that's absolutely disgusting
and discredits much of what we have to say about our "moderate", "pro-american", we're-the-good-guys propaganda. Giving voice to moderate or pro-american clerics fine, but putting up mullahs to preach that message is the ultimate slap in the face. If people began listening to these charlatans and they were discovered ANY goodwill that might have existed would evaporate faster than alcohol near chimpy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. 'jesus wept'
just about says it all.
if xtians would remember the shortest bible verse, they might think before they act.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Agreed. And I do remember that phrase often.
Now more than ever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joycep Donating Member (847 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. It is not good as far as I am concerned
If the US would act in the right manner, we would not have to pay someone to say that we are ok. In other words, we should walk the walk, not talk the talk. I would certainly not want my minister paid by the Government to influence me a certain way. I believe the Golden Rule is just as good for governments as for ordinary people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. If they would do it to Muslims there ...
they would do it to Christians here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. It does make me wonder....
Who else may be on the payroll? American Muslim leaders? Sun Yung Moon maybe? Fallwell, Robertson? Benny Hine? L. Ron Hubbard?

Maybe entire conventions/sects, ie: Aryian Brotherhood, The Southern Baptists, Mormons, etc.?

Paid by the government to keep the belivers in line, and centered firmly in proper view of politics, obedience, and religion by preaching a pro-agenda/USA message. Unquestioning seritude to the state in the name of religion....

Wonder how this works in regards with the first admendment?
:eyes:

Tin foil kufi time :tinfoilhat:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Black churches take Repuke money
as admitted by a high level RNC operative whose name I cant remember. (First name = Ed?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. The Unification Church
Moon's Unification Church does have very close ties to the CIA and the cash flow between the two organizations has essentially been bidirectional at times.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. As a Christian, I despise the idea.
However, I am not averse to having Muslim believers go in and preach tolerance of the US and others ON THEIR TERMS, not those of the CIA or bush administration. That means no money from the gummint.

In fact, I think that would be a pretty good idea: no conversion involved, instead, offering a different perspective that they are accustomed to in the ME.

It would have to be initiated by Muslims, of course, wth Muslim scholars oversseing it.


Haven't read that thread but I'd like to. Link?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. Happens all the time, and has forever
Surely no one is surprised that religious leaders are being paid by political leaders? Try reading a history book.

Not only that, but the US via CIA has lots of connections to missionary groups sent from the US to South America and elsewhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think it's the notion of creating fake clerics out the whole cloth...
"In Islam, as in many other religions, anyone can call himself a religious leader," Mr Kessler is quoted as saying. "So, besides paying mullahs, the CIA created fake mullahs - recruited agents who would proclaim themselves clerics and take a more moderate position about non-believers."

I dunno....I just find the notion of fake mullahs to be a lot more disgusting and disrespectful than subsidizing REAL clerics who are sympathetic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. no different than Pat Robertson
as far as I can tell
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. It IS offensive...
but the U.S. governments have done it a lot, and I bet they're still doing it.

During the Central American conflicts, there were persistent rumors that the C.I.A. was helping American fundamentalist and Pentecostal missionaries who told the people to submit meekly to their governments. President Rios Montt of Guatemala, one of the worst human rights violators in that country's sorry history, was a member of one of those American-sponsored groups.

I keep asking why the fundies are able to build large, luxurious church complexes in the suburbs almost instantly. Having grown up as a preacher's kid, I know that mainstream churches take years to reach that stage. Since the huge church complexes provide a total information environment (church services, study groups, social activities for everyone from preschoolers to seniors, broadcast and print media, music, personal counseling) and instill a fear and suspicion of "non-Christian" sources of information, they can be a tremendous force in indoctrination.

If any investigative journalists are reading this, I urge them to investigate the possibility that the suburban megachurches are being funded by conservative political forces. I may be wrong, but the question warrants an inquiry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. Spain's King & Queen paid "real" clergy to support it invasion of America
It's practically the same thing, except the clergy were authentic. But they were on the royal payroll and the Church blessed the carnage, the robbery and the enslavement of the Native Americans and was paid HANDSOMELY for that blessing, with a fixed percentage of the loot.

I have been reading an extremely interesting book on the "American Holocaust", which cost about 100,000,000 native Americans their lives. Since the CONQUEROR'S wrote the history, it takes a lot of work to get to the FACTS. I really urge every Liberal reading this to go out and get this great book by David E. Stannard.
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org.

See what Christ might say about the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" imposters.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Dec 27th 2024, 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC