Can Liberals, like Fundies, be too strident in preaching?

[Stinky The Clown]

I'm a guy who is as subtle as a brick thrown through a window. I wear my emotions - and opinions - right out there on my sleeve. I don't hesitate to engage in political discussion. I don't even hesitate to use the word 'Nazi' if it can help rhetorically to make my point.

And I sometimes piss people off. I like being in your face. I **like** arguing. But I am also engaging and can win some arguments on charm alone. But by charm or by bluster I'll engage most anyone anywhere. I also feel as if I'm on a mission. Idiot son is SO bad for our country - MY country - that I simply cannot refrain from talking about him constantly. I now find myself concerned that I'm starting to sound as bad as the efungelicals. Different tune, to be sure .... but a similar tone and pitch (at least that's what I fear).

I also know I'm not alone. I'm not unique in this. I suspect many of you can identify with it.

So my question today is .......

Can we sound that nutty? Do we appear to them as they appear to us? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Does it help or hurt our cause?

Help this old curmudgeon see more clearly.

[Wetzelbill]

1. yeah we can, that doesn't mean it is so

[Not_Giving_Up]

2. The only way the word gets out is if it is spread

They know it, and they aren't afraid to shove down their beliefs down someone's throat. We are now in a position that we have to shove back, or no one will hear us.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. That's my view, too.

Cuz surely no one else is speaking on our behalf.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. The difference

You probably sound intelligent, informed, and ethical. Wingnuts just sound like whatever neo-con hate radio host they heard on the way into work that morning.

Besides, they have the entire frigging media also doing their work for them. We are the only "liberal media" most of the people we know are ever going to hear.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. The 'liberal media' .... yeah ... right .......

You're correct. We *are* our only means to get the message out.

As to trying to argue with wingnuts ...... that's a losing battle not worth fighting. In order to argue, one must have a thinking person on the other side. Argument is a comparison of thoughts. The underlying assumption is that both sides are capable of independent thinking and critical speaking and listening skills. If not, it isn't an argument. Its a soliloquy.

[brainshrub]

4. Yes.

Make use of Goodwin's law as much as you can. Of course, it's difficult when you really are dealing with fascists. (I think just yesterday I compared US torture techniques with Nazi torture... but there is no nice way to frame torture without breaking Goodwin's law.)

I've learned that the best long-term way to change hearts is to live an honest life and speak from integrity. Arguing isn't going to change minds, neither is strident preaching.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Living an honest life as role modeling for an argument is the easy part

It has my observation in my near 60 years upright that pople on the left side of the spectrum tend to live more honest lives than those on the right. The contrast is more stark the farther one goes from center.

I'll put my life and life story up against anyone anywhere. And that includes virtually **any** self-righteous religious fundamentalist. My life has been more a study in moral values than many - even though my church has been the Church of Stinky The Clown for the last 45 years.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. I think the thing to do is be sincere

And don't pick arguements with people who have drunk the Kool Aid and aren't going to listen anyway--you do this not only not to waste your energy but also to avoid having any bystanders decide that you are as nutty and out of it as the wingnuts are.

But if you are sincere and walk your talk, you'll find people who will want to listen and find out the truth. Speak to them, giving them what they need to know and don't overload them.

[WePurrsevere]

15. You worded how I feel very well...

it's how I am about my spiritual beliefs and political beliefs.

I guess the Desiderata is firmly implanted in my mind and I remember very well the old commercial "if you want to catch someone's attention... whisper" and found that it works. :)

Of course there's also the old quote my late MIL used to use: Never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig. ;)

[MindPilot]

6. Nope -- not any more

I used to worry about that but now I'm in nothing left to lose mode.

[Ariana Celeste]

7. It really depends on who you speak to

I have a friend who is pretty close to Libertarian, though doesn't define herself that way. She hates this Administration as much as we all do, but doesn't really think the Democrats have a whole lot to offer, either, except to put some more money into health and education. But, she says she doesn't like liberals (she knows the diff between lib and dem) because they are just as down her throat as fundies can be. And I sat and thought about that for a minute- and I have to agree with her. Not to say all liberals are like that, I'm certainly not. I know others who aren't. But I know some who are just as bad as fundies when they start talking politics. Then there are other types who will listen, others who will argue, others who are indifferent. Really depends on the person.

[oneold1-4u]

8. Loud, clear, clean!

Maybe even with a bit of humor. When we can claim to change, or hope to, one voter because we can be progressive and not abusive we are on the right road!
Too many Democrats are offensive to their own by their personal ideologies coming out of their mouths and writings.
If you want to just be "the BOSS", get there illegally and then enforce your opinions with new laws and forces, under the guise of justice!

[Igel]

9. Yes.

I've known strident preachers who were loved by some people, hated by others. I've known pedantic, plodding preachers who were loved by some people, and hated by others.

The strident ones drove people away from their message by their hyperbole and over-the-top oratory.

The pedantic ones hid their message behind big words and alleged scholarship, and bored people into drifting away.

Both sets defended their views: The strident preachers said they needed to wake up the congregation, people were too complacent. The pedantic ones said that if the congregation was too stupid to understand what they were saying, well, they should just go, buy a dictionary, and learn a few words.

A couple of years after I left the church, church membership had declined by nearly 50%; two years later, the groups of ministers split the church, and yet more people left. Nonetheless, each group of preachers continues to believe that they're wonderful preachers, with only the laity's interests at heart.

Neither group of speakers really cared about the message, or the audience. They were each too busy patting themselves on the back and saying how superior they were to the sheep, and to each other.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. I think maybe I need to define the word 'argue'

It is NOT yelling and screaming - although there are surely times when that's an appropriate rhetorical tactic.

What it IS, is more along the classic definition .... as in 'argue a case in court'. No yelling involved. Just speaking truth - or at least the truth as one sees it.

I tend to use more humor and sarcasm when arguing than I do yelling and sceaming. Yelling and screaming are essentially last ditch tactics and almost - but not quite - always counterproductive.

[Igel]

20. I guess my point is that the audience is more important than the

speaker when the speaker's trying to make a point.

The definition of "strident" depends not on my point of view, when I'm speaking, but the person's I'm talking to.

Especially these days ... no benefit of the doubt's given by the "opposing side" and that's somehow seen as a virtue.

[yewberry]

10. Absolutely.

Just my opinion:

If someone refers to me (or anyone, really) as a 'Rat (dummycrat/baby-killer/lieberal/feminazi/etc,) I dismiss them as divisive, childish, or just plain too far gone. They're simply not worth listening to.

To my mind, there's a big difference between having a discussion or argument about politics and demonizing a political opponent--the latter is the strategy of RW radio and of the administration. They're nutty.

I'm better than that.

[julialnyc]

12. Preaching

Preaching usually only works when directed at the choir.

[Goldmund]

16. Dude, you just described me.

[MrPrax]

18. If too dogmatic and aggressive...

then people will simply avoid talking to you about 'political' topics.

Winning 'hearts and minds' is not an easy task and much of the time, being informed with facts, background and information, places you above the 'punditry' and goes a long way to gaining 'respect'.

(Mind you it is sometimes tough to resist, 'I watch fuckin' TV too, idiot--can you say something ELSE that shows you NOT some idiot robot who believes whatever some rich drug addict tells you??') ;-)

[BiggJawn]

19. Oh, sure we can.

Ever read one of the many "Wal-mart is EEEEVUL!" or PETA threads around here?

[Stinky The Clown]

23. No

I never read those threads ..... hence making your point! :)

[nonconformist]

21. No.

We're not being strident enough if you ask me.

Then again, I'm a very passionate person who will also not hesitate to make Nazi comparisons... so consider the source.

[Bouncy Ball]

22. Yes, we certainly can.

And nothing makes me cringe more than to be talking to a middle-of-the-road person, calmly relating facts to them about the bush administration or the war when a fellow liberal pipes up with "MOTHERFUCKING NAZI FASCISTS ALL OF THEM!" (I'm describing a real situation that happened recently.)

Sure, I feel the fellow liberal's rage. But the middle-of-the-roader who was just nodding along and asking for more information suddenly looks totally spooked, and can I blame him?

So I simply pull middle-of-the-roader off to the side and fortunately my fellow screaming liberal has found somewhere else to yell "motherfucking nazis" and I explain with a smile that the bush administration has some people so alarmed that some alarming behavior can occur as a result. In this situation the guy laughed a bit and we went on with our very calm, but very eye-opening conversation. A couple of days later, he introduced me to his wife with "this is that smart liberal woman I told you about, can you believe I was talking to a liberal?" And they both laugh and I say "yes, he discovered I don't have horns after all" and I proceed to tell his wife what I told him.

And there you go, two more people learning what I have learned, and opening their eyes to how the bush administration in particular and the republican party and corporate interests in general are hurting THEM specifically.

BUT, Husb2Sparkly, don't write your style off. I am of the opinion that it takes all kinds and my laid-back, fairly quiet style of communicating the danger of present times isn't always what is needed, know what I mean?

So keep plugging away. Personally, from what I've read of you here, I think you're damn good people, Husb2Sparkly. That goes for your wife, too.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. In person, I'm pretty much the same as how my posts here come across

Irreverent, cynical, laced with humor and good humor, a little scoldy at times, a little profane, (hopefully) well informed, (hopefully) reasoned, (hopefully) non-judgmental, **hopelessly** liberal, but not 'fringe'.

I'd like to think I'm generally well liked, no matter what one's political views are. Plus, when judged, like a book, by my cover, I'm often mistaken for a republican!

And thank you for your complimentary comments. I appreciate that. :hi:

[Bouncy Ball]

26. Well, hey, you sound great to me!

:hi:

You've always struck me as someone the husband and I would have a grand old time with.

[LittleClarkie]

24. I think it's important to listen

and try to tailor our message to the person we're talking to.

That said, I have trouble doing it. But yes, I think anyone can sound like a nut if they sound to strident and esp if they don't let the other person speak. We don't want it to seem as if we don't listen or don't take all facts into account. You know what I mean?