Does a Duck Have a Soul? How foie gras became the new fur.

[shockra]

Does a Duck Have a Soul?
How foie gras became the new fur.

By Marshall Sella

<snip>

Ariane Daguin, co-owner of D’Artagnan, the country’s leading distributor of foie gras, is not tortured by doubt. “Animals have no soul,” she says, in her rich Gascon accent. “God made ducks to have that liver—and He made it incredibly delicious! Why would it exist if not for us to enjoy it?”

Daguin does not come by her beliefs lightly. Her family has been producing foie gras continuously since the French Revolution. Further, she argues, the process is merely something ducks do naturally, to bulk up for migration. “No one invented the foie gras—the ducks did it themselves,” she says. “The liver is their cockpit for calories, and they need this when they are going to fly across the Mediterranean, when it is cold. So they have a natural propensity to extend and retract the liver. Besides, they have no gag reflex. It takes me pages to explain this, but all the protesters have to do is hold up a picture of a poor duck and people say, ‘If that were me, it would hurt.’ But this . . . this is the anthropomorphisme!” Daguin also invokes, and can produce, a French study appearing to demonstrate that ducks do not experience heightened stress from gavage. Judging from steady corticosterone levels, the study concluded that ducks actually worry more during the rearing process.

In a softer moment, Daguin concedes that abuse does occur in some farms’ production of foie gras—but adds that mishandling of poultry only renders bruised, unsuitable livers and is simply bad business. Still, she rues the misguided reasoning of her detractors. “There is a certain amount of cruelty in killing an animal to eat,” she says, “but there is also a certain amount of cruelty to pull a leek or carrot out of the earth to eat! Foie gras—this is the easy target. If these people wanted to start in the right place, they would outlaw the slaughter of cows in a kosher way, which they could never do here. The one time I saw a cow slaughtered that way, seeing it bleed for two hours, this was the one time I had to go outside and vomit.”

Daguin’s is the unspoken logic of many who have quietly resolved never to think about where meat comes from—those who will decry deer-hunting through a mouthful of venison. In the modern world, where humans increasingly see themselves as separate from nature, most carnivores are willfully blind to the direct line from butcher to brunch. To their way of thinking, in the Darwinian game, we’ve won. If ducks don’t want us to braise their livers, they would be wise to arm themselves.

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/features/12071/index.html

[Ragnar]

1. I love foie gras

I also like Goose liver pate, venison, and veal.

I have eaten moose, whale, dog and all sorts of more traditional meats.

And I'm not stopping. Life springs only from death. Vegetarians sometimes have a hard time embracing this fact.

[NashVegas]

2. I Don't Think That's The Point

The 'life springs from death' thing.

If someone bags a loaded-up goose in flight, we call that sport.

The odds here are a little more stacked (understatement). Similar to confining calves for veal. If you like it, I guess that's your business, but please don't attempt to rationalize your way to thinking it's not inhumane. When ducks load up naturally, they do it on their own time, controlling their own intake.

[Ragnar]

3. It actually is the point.

Too many of these campaigns are from the same PETA nutballs who would ban seeing eye dogs, meat and insulin.

[smbolisnch]

15. delete

delete

[NashVegas]

19. I Really Hope

You intended that post for someone else.

[smbolisnch]

20. OMG yes I did!!

I am SO sorry!!! :hug:

[NashVegas]

22. Thought So

Just wanted to make sure before I get slap-happy :)

[smbolisnch]

24. I think that was my problem, too quick to go in for the attack!

Simmering down over here......
Sorry again!!

[shockra]

4. Life springs only from death.

I guess that's why moms always die after giving birth.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ragnar]

9. I doubt it very much.

I find you amusing.

[Vladimir]

11. Fucking hell, you almost make *me* want to

become a vegetarian. And that is no easy task.

Sheesh.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vladimir]

14. Look, this is a *public* forum

I might make that kind of joke whilst on the piss with my mates. I wouldn't walk into a room full of people I don't know and shout out anything remotely resembling it, and neither I guess would you.

[Ragnar]

16. Actually I might.

I tend to be a bit of an asshole when I sense stupidity, ignorance or intolerance. Sometimes shock is a good way to get people thinking on a subject.

You have my apologies for my offending you. Perhaps I went too far, but the overwhelming absurdity and self deprecation of my post amused me so much I could not resist.

If two more people ask, I'll strike it.

[shockra]

18. The comment in your profile is ironic.

It is better to remain silent and be though(t) a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt - Lincoln

[Ragnar]

23. Thanks.

I made a typo. Now I can fix it. Thank you for pointing that out.

Making a typo is not irony, btw.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

6. Not always, but SOMETHING had to die to get her to giving birth.

Where does one draw the line? If PETA says it's wrong to kill, eat, and otherwise "exploit" animals, then why not extend the same Rights to our Brethren in the plant world?

Could it be that it's because plants don't have eyes, and aren't very cute when they're infants?

Never had Foi Gras, never want to have Foi Gras, and I think I'd have to class it right up there with eating tumors or something like that.

Tain't natcherul, y'know....

[Ragnar]

28. You know what....

...my censored post was more graphic but no more offensive than this purely fallacical crap:

"I guess that's why moms always die after giving birth."

That implies something untrue, comical (in a laughing at you sense) and totally unrepresentative of my position.

[Stuckinthebush]

8. Life springs only from death!

My physician didn't mention that to me when she said that if I didn't stop eating so much meat, that I would die.

I guess that upon my death, the decomposition of my body would allow life to spring from above my grave.

I'll cheat death for a while longer and continue my vegetarian ways.

[Ragnar]

10. See, you get it. (edited for PC understanding)

"the decomposition of my body would allow life to spring from above my grave."

And until the day I die, I will not presume to mark one non-human form of life as more precious than another.

[NashVegas]

26. So ...

If you would not presume to mark one form of life as more precious than another ... and someone discovered that human beer bellies make excellent eats ... would it then be okay to confine someone, force feed them Schlitz for two weeks, and then on to the table they go?

on edit: let's be real and make it force-fed Schlitz for two years.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smbolisnch]

32. He/She was not suggesting cannibalism in a literal sense, obviously.

Only pointing out the ridiculousness of your post and your justification for inhumane practices. No censoring neccessary. :shrug:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smbolisnch]

34. I didn't see where you were censored. However, advocating eating dogs

veal and fois gras IS demonic to some people. Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Ragnar]

35. And advocating not allowing me freedom...

...is offensive to me. What's so hard to understand?

If you don't like meat, don't eat it. I'm cool with that.

[smbolisnch]

36. So your position is that your first post in this thread was NOT intended

to be inflammatory? I doubt that. It's ok for you to bait vegetarians and non vegetarian compassionate DUers but it is not alright for us to defend our positions?? :eyes:

[Ragnar]

37. There's a fine line between inflammatory and challenging.

I meant to challenge the proposition that vegetarians have some sort of moral high ground. I do not believe it to be the case that plants do not suffer. I do not believe it to be the case that most meat producers are overly cruel in their production processes.

I understand that ethical vegitarians and vegans disagree with me on this. It is my contention that those groups use inflammatory rhetoric and imagery in an attempt to paint their position as one of moral imperative rather than simple belief. I find that practice offensive.

Moreover, I find that among the moderate population the environmental movement gets (unfairly) lumped in with animal rights movement because of the preponderance of animal rights advocates who also advocate environmental issues.

I find this association harmful to the environmental movement, as someone will wrongly equate Ingrid Newkirk as the primary sort of person defending endangered species. No one needs to be told that the fringe elements are not the ideal spokespersons to broaden a movement.

For these reasons, I do not feel I should let radical vegans have an unchallenged voice on these issues; even from the left they must be challenged.

[NashVegas]

40. Actually I Was

Being quite literal. A suggestion of a hypothetical situation is all.

[NashVegas]

41. Hey Hey

I see that edit. Tsk.

Most Americans also have a problem with the cooking of cats and dogs. Maybe you should try another edit?

What I'm getting at is, there are people who place higher value on different forms. Sacred cows, etc. (Suddenly I'm wondering what the Delhi McDonald's serves up.)

Is there no animal and no treatment of said animal, for human consumption purposes, where you draw the line? I find that hard to believe. Everyone has a line, somewhere.

[Ragnar]

43. My line is actually higher primates.

Hey, give me some credit. At least I didn't just make the edit and not label it as edited.

I would not want to eat something I felt had actual awareness. I also would not eat dolphins, as there is some evidence of language among them.

Believe it or not, I am a highly ethical person. In fact, my vociferous opposition to hardline vegans is a result of my own ethical stand. Frankly, I know meat will not be banned in my lifetime, so it is of little practical use for me to argue. It is an idealistic reason which drives me.

I understand and respect the idea od decreasing the suffering in the world. I applaud efforts to make slaughterhouses more humane. What I have problems with in the animal rights camp are the far fringes who would stop meat, insulin, leather and service animals...all of which serve important purposes.

I also believe, (I'll admit it's because I am reading between the li(n)es of PETA's mission statement) that they would keep us from owning pets. I find that wholly disturbing. My kitty would not survive in the wild.

[NashVegas]

45. I Wouldn't Let Peta Scare Me

Seriously. They have about as good a chance of getting *everything* they desire as Fred Phelps does.

Yes, they're extremists, but they have accomplished some very good things. As a semi-conscienable (sp?) meat-eater, I appreciate everything they've done to raise awareness of the brutality of the livestock industry. Because of their campaigns, niche businesses have sprung up that attempt to treat their livestock humanely. The SPCA was saying 'please' and 'thank you' all along; that method doesn't stand a chance against the ruthless efficiency of the modern age.

[Ragnar]

46. My larger concern is the division effect.

I am afraid that PETA and their ilk are alienating mainstream Americans formthe environmental movement. It is easy for a person to accept the idea of public funding for the protection of drinking water. But when the same person who convinced you of that turns around and tells you "meat is murder!" it is counterporductive. I saw this repeatedly when I worked for environmental groups.

Some of the hardcore vegans with whom I worked wanted me fired because I admonished them publicly in a staff meeting. Luckily, I was a top fundraiser.

I explain my position more in the other part of this thread, in the last post.

[mondo joe]

30. How the hell much meat were you eating that it would KILL you?

[Stuckinthebush]

51. Obviously way too much!

That was a year ago and I haven't had a bite since.

My numbers have all improved dramatically and I plan on staying this way for the rest of my life (so it won't be too short!).

[smbolisnch]

21. Keep telling yourself that.

The fact is, force feeding these animals until they cannot stand due to their own weight IS inhumane. As is veal confinement and DOGS???? No comment required on that one. This is not a PETA issue, it is a cruelty issue, one that you seem to take pleasure in contributing to.

[Piperay]

39. Uh

:puke: I agree with Lincoln, ironic that YOU use it .....

[graywarrior]

13. Quackity quack quack.

[Taxloss]

17. A colleague on our sister site ran into a flamewar on that:

http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/06/23/foie_gras_follies.php

We on Londonist have so far avoided the issue.

[sendero]

27. In this case...

... I don't have to deal with this moral dilemma.

The liver is the waste treatment plant of the body and I don't eat the stuff at all :)

[LeftyMom]

31. "soul?" who cares if ducks have something that may or may not exist?

The question is if they suffer needlessly, and the answer appears to be an obvious yes.

[shockra]

38. Also, editorial in the New York Times today on this subject.

Face to Face With the Foie Gras Problem

By LAWRENCE DOWNES

Published: June 26, 2005

The web of life can be a trap for the conscience. Try twisting your mind around the human relationship with animals and it may quickly snarl in crisscrossing strands of compassion and guilt. Contortions may ensue.

Consider, for example, the strange role reversals behind an effort in Albany to outlaw the force-feeding of waterfowl to engorge their livers into foie gras, the fatty restaurant delicacy. One Senate sponsor, John Bonacic, is an upstate Republican who says he has no special sympathy for ducks or geese, despite what his bill says. He says he wants only to help a Sullivan County constituent - Hudson Valley Foie Gras, the nation's leading producer of fresh foie gras, which has not only lobbied for the bill, but also helped to write it.

Why? Michael Ginor, an owner of Hudson Valley Foie Gras, says he feels an anti-foie-gras mood building and is willing to be put out of business in New York if he can land on his feet somewhere else. The Bonacic bill, unlike others lurking in the legislative wings, does not take effect until 2016, giving Mr. Ginor ample time to make other plans - moving to Canada, maybe, or an Indian reservation - without worrying about losing his market dominance or facing prosecution for cruelty.

Animal welfare advocates have thus found themselves opposing a foie-gras ban, which in this case they say cynically gives a duck torturer a decade of indulgence.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/26/opinion/26sun2.html?

[Catchawave]

42. The Delicacy of Despair (sensitive photo links)

http://www.gourmetcruelty.com/photos.php

http://www.nofoiegras.org/FGphotos.htm

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/foie_gras_new_slideshow/foiegras1.html

Bon apetite !

[Tinoire]

48. Horrible. HORRIBLE & a far cry from the farms I saw in France!

I love foie gras. Loved visiting the French countryside and seeing the duck/goose farms from the rood. I buy it in/from France often but after seeing those photos I'm going to have a hard time eating it. I know I defintely won't be eating any American foie gras. Our meat/poultry/dairy industry is unacceptably cruel- IT CAN BE DONE differently!

Now though, I'm off to research what PETA has to say about the French Foie Gras industry. Apparently they're *only* forcefed for the last 10 days of their lives.

Good lord. Pretty soon DU is going to make me cave in to my sconscience & turn me into a full vegan.

===
(excerpt)

One animal rights group has made a film of what it calls the horrors of the force-feeding room and is trying to educate the French public about what the geese and ducks go through to produce foie gras. Dominique Hoffpower is a member of the group.



"They are kept in individual cages for about 10 days," said Hoffpower. "They are force-fed with a tube, twice a day into their throats, about two pounds of corn per day. And that makes their liver swell to about eight times its normal size so they can't breathe, they don't sleep anymore and some of them die before the end. That's what foie gras is."



Born to gorge?



But as he force-fed his ducks, St. Blancard, insisted that the animals do not suffer: Foie gras was first discovered by the ancient Egyptians, he said, adding that making it only exploits the migrating waterfowl’s natural ability to gorge themselves and store the excess fat in their livers before long flights.

"We do everything for the ducks to be comfortable," he said. "They always have clean water and fresh air. Yes, they have to digest intensively, that's true and we can't deny it. But they're not sick. It's like a sporting challenge for them. We do not hurt the birds because if they are unwell they can not produce a nice liver."


But St. Blancard admited that large, industrial producers may not take as much care with their birds.

While animal activists so far have not driven any foie gras producers out of business in France, European Union regulations may. The EU has demanded that the cages widely used by French farmers be replaced by larger ones so that the birds can move freely, for example.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1553359,00.html

[UdoKier]

44. I don't think souls are relevant.

I don't eat foie gras because the animals are tortured. I prefer the meat I eat be slaughtered as humanely as possible, so I don't eat it or veal. There are a ton of other delicious things to eat.

I don't rag on people who do eat it, but I'd just rather not.

[shockra]

47. Wolfgang Puck a Duck

He has a line of organic soups you might want to avoid if you're a vegetarian, or opposed to foie gras or veal. I saw them in the natural foods section of my local store after I heard about this Farm Sanctuary campaign.

http://www.wolfgangpuckcruelty.org/

As one of America’s most high profile ‘celebrity’ chefs, Wolfgang Puck has had a huge hand in promoting both foie gras and 'white' veal among American consumers. It is widely acknowledged that these items are produced by some of the cruelest farming practices imaginable-- practices so patently cruel that they have been outlawed in countries around the world.

Mr. Puck has ignored the many earnest efforts of humane advocates to educate him about the cruelty behind foie gras and veal and to urge him to stop promoting them. While hundreds of restaurants and chefs across the nation have pledged to stop serving crated veal and foie gras because of their inherent cruelty, Puck continues to flout the facts and to feature these items on the menus of his eateries, in his cookbooks, and on his television cooking show.

As long as Mr. Puck promotes veal and foie gras to the public, he is helping sustain industries that are steeped in cruelty. He is also going against the majority of public opinion: More than 70% of Americans polled state their opposition to the force feeding of birds to produce foie gras, and polls have repeatedly shown that most Americans oppose the use of veal crates.

[NawlinsNed]

49. How about...

... he likes to eat veal and fois gras, and the whining of sycophants doesn't affect him? If America were really as hellbent on doing away with those meats, then he wouldn't have a market for them, now would he? After all, veal and fois gras are acquired tastes, even amongst meat eaters. Yet he's extremely successful.

Grow the fuck up. Your right to whine and protest does not outweigh his right to prepare legal dishes for his clientele.

[shockra]

50. There was nothing immature about my post.

Can't say the same about yours.

So nice you admire the rich and famous. I'm sure that fact validates the morality of everything they do.

[Tinoire]

52. Your post has left me totally confused

Who's whining? Requesting a little responsibility from restaurateurs when it comes to a more ethical treatment of animals is not sycophantic whining.

It's unfortunate more people don't give a rat's ass how much suffering it takes to laden their dinner table.

There's no excuse for cruelty to animals.

Additionally, what does the fact that he's catering to a clientele have to do with it? Bush is catering to a clientele also and all the whining of Democratic sycophants hasn't affected him. Does that make him right?

I love foie gras because I grew up eating it any my ex is from the region that produces it. I realize it makes me a contributor to animal cruelty and a huge hypocrite in my support of PETA but that hypocrisy doesn't make it right.

Do you believe that our right to whine and protest does not outweigh Bush's right to wage legal wars for his clientele?

[Algorem]

53. ducks do,Daguin does not.

coldblooded byotch.

[kineneb]

54. Ducks with souls? why not?

perhaps a bit too esoteric for me this late in the evening. All I know is that my pet chicken is fairly intelligent and does have an individual personality. As for ducks, the wild pair that visit us in our yard are quite charming. I'm not sure about foie gras; why not just be satisfied with regular duck or goose livers? Sounds kind of mean to over feed them.

[Ragnar]

55. I've never seen a duck even wearing shoes.

So how could they have soles?