Scientology bashing GOOD? But Christianity bashing BAD?

[dhinojosa]

Christianity believes in just as many crazy things as Scientology, yet whenever anyone bashes Christianity it is an outrage.

Anyways, lets discuss....

P.S. I kept this message short because the mods may want to prove my point by locking this.

[matcom]

1. its ALL good

;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. If you ask me

they're both good. But some things are more "good" than others.

[smbolisnch]

3. Bashing any religion is "bad".

I for one am sick of reading about any of them!

[beam me up scottie]

4. It's been nice

knowing you...
:evilgrin:

[dhinojosa]

6. hahahah

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[beam me up scottie]

18. It's not nice

to bring up religious hypocrisy.

[Walt Starr]

5. Okay, I agree the rising from the dead bit is over the top

but come on, Xenu the galactic ruler soilves his overpopulation problem by sending everybody to Teegeeack (Earth) in DC8 space planes to sit by volcanoes wiating for hydrogen bombs to go off and kill them all, just so they could inhabit human bodies in clusters millenia later and be expunged via Dianetics?

What's not to make fun of there?

[dhinojosa]

9. Oh tons...

But when I make fun of Jesus doing his mystical journey, raising the dead, making water into wine, walking on water, and all the other bullcrap, I get locked.

Lets have fun, and let even-handed bashing continue.

[FreedomAngel82]

95. Figure out why you get locked

Why do you get locked? Is it because of what you bash or is it because of something you said in the process? The mods here are pretty fair but when something gets out of control they will close it. That's what you have to figure out you did.

[dhinojosa]

111. Oh, I said...

eh, let me send you a private message. I have given the mods more than enough to do already

[Renew Deal]

7. Scientology is not a religion.

It's the equivelant to chem trails and Kwanzaa.

[dhinojosa]

12. Sure it is....

They have crazy ideals, gullible followers, and penchant for revenge.

Same ingredients that make up Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

[Renew Deal]

13. Good point

but, it is still not a religion. It's more of a cult.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Thank you.

Last time I said the same thing, I woke up nailed to a cross.

[movonne]

19. So is organized religion a cult...

[Renew Deal]

22. Not technically

That's the difference.

[insane_cratic_gal]

28. Ever seen a Revival?

err it's a cult if I have ever seen one!

People talking in tongues, laying hands, and Hallelujah's. Hands up in the air!

[beam me up scottie]

30. Excellent visual aid !!!

:applause:

[FreedomAngel82]

98. What makes you think they're a cult?

Why do you think they're a cult? Just wondering. I have heard of Christian cults though. I remember once watching something on MSNBC about two years ago or so and this girl was on there talking about how she was in a Christian cult. She thought they believed in what she did and then she figured them out and was able to get out. They used religion and pulled her in. They told her she could only hang out with them, eat certain foods, etc. Things got really out of control and the girl got out of the group a live thankfully.

[beam me up scottie]

106. Some of us believe

all religions are cults.
It depends on your definition.

[BurtWorm]

36. I'm not sure what the difference is, unless it has to do with political

power. Whatever the powers that be accept as religions are religions. What they don't accept are labeled "cults."

Notice how the Moonies have gone from being the epitome of the cult sect in America, the one every parent worried about losing their child to, to being the harmless pet of one of the most powerful capitalists in the world. The powers that be overlook Moon's religion because he funds the American right wing.

[dhinojosa]

60. Nice point....

Very nice. Thank you.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

48. That, Sir

Would make the fellow a keen observer, but hardly an innovator....

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

96. The definition got deleted ?

:banghead:

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kraklen]

42. Kwanzaa?

Now what's your beef with Kwanzaa? It's as valid as any other holiday.

[beam me up scottie]

44. uh oh

:hide:

[Renew Deal]

76. Yep, it sure is.

:shrug:

[Kraklen]

78. Then what's your point?

:shrug:

[getmeouttahere]

8. Join the lock-step with BushCo

Amurika is a Christian nation, haven't you heard. Here, have some Kool-Aid and it will all come back to you.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. If I believed Scientology was a religion

and not a cultish pyramid scheme, I wouldn't bash it.

[insane_cratic_gal]

32. hehe Ever had

a Jehovah witness show up on your doorstep?

recruiting pyramid scheme. How about "I want to hear the rustle of bills not the jingle of change." as the donation basket is being passed around.

Just saying one could assume the same about the hardliner Christians too. They are bit scary after all

[sam sarrha]

11. if critisizing, pointing out falacies and stupid Sh*t.. is bashin? I bash.

this is the new state religion..
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm


http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/052805A.shtml

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia

these are all based on the philosophy of leo strauss, there are cabnet members who were actual diciples of strauss.. studied under him.. http://www.alternet.org/story/15935

[dhinojosa]

15. Hey good links

:)

[H2O Man]

14. You're silly. n/t

[guntherconcept]

17. Scientology is not a religion

Lots of religions believe things that seem weird to outsiders. But there is a difference between religions that have existed for thousands or hundreds of years, and one that was formed 50 years ago but some writer of bad science fiction. Also, most religions don't threaten, harrass and otherwise persecute people who happen to leave that particular sect, like the scientologists do. In addition, most religions don't charge huge amounts of money for spiritual enlightenment -- I take it as a rule of thumb that how seriously a religion should be taken is inversely proportional to how much money they gouge from their believers. And finally, even though many religions believe some things that seem weird to me, some things just ARE weird -- the scientologist belief that we are all inhabited by the souls of dead aliens is nutzoid.

[getmeouttahere]

21. Some of those points could be applied...

to Mormonism...regardless, denigrating ANY religion is messed up!

[dhinojosa]

24. So old bullshit is better than fresh bullshit?

Harrassment, extortion, persecution are all in the to do list of every religion. Its been done for thousands of years, but bashing Scientology is the latest craze I guess, but when I do the same to Christianity people get uptight.

[The Magistrate]

37. In Effect, Sir, Yes

As Mr. Wilde observed long ago: "Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."

Where un-scientific beliefs are concerned, there is a sort of grandfather clause in operation: beliefs that date to a pre-scientific era are naturally marked with supernaturalism and other implausibilities, but it is understandable that they could have taken such deep root in human consciousness, as people quite honestly did not know any better, and indeed, often proposed these ideas as explainations for things they did not understand. But where such ideas originate in a modern, scientific society, this factor is not present. Their promotors have no seniority, and no standing: they are mere johnny-come-latelies, occupying about the same place in the world of ideas and faith as forgers of antique furniture occupy in the decorating trade....

[RandomKoolzip]

53. I am in awe over your gift for turning a phrase, Magistrate.

:thumbsup:

[dhinojosa]

63. Wow

they are mere johnny-come-latelies, occupying about the same place in the world of ideas and faith as forgers of antique furniture occupy in the decorating trade....

What a sentence

[mccoyn]

64. Science isn't done.

There is much we don't know about the Universe. So the founders of Scientology knew about evolution; In their crackpot theories aliens come from other planets and inhabit the evolved species. The founders of Christianity (or its predecessors) didn't know about evolution; In their crackpot theories people are made on earth by a creator. Both are making baseless claims that fit with the available knowledge. I don't see how the one is more legit than they other?

Wait, the one has had evidence piled up against it so it doesn't even fit with modern science.

[insane_cratic_gal]

69. Adam Made out of Mud

very good point.

I would say most religions suffer from a lack of evidence that is why they are taken on "faith".

[beam me up scottie]

27. How do you feel about

ritualized cannibalism ?

[beam me up scottie]

39. Money? Three words : Creflo Dollar Ministries

http://www.creflodollarministries.org/about/aboutus_t.html

[sam sarrha]

40. But is is a cult... see #31

[insane_cratic_gal]

55. Pagan religions

vs monolithic religions are much older then Christianity. Does it diminish religion of Christianity?

Why does the idea of God change so much over the years. He was mean sob at one point, now he's more tender. As a society grows from barbaric into a law ab-bidding society, the ideas of the religion change. It still encompasses fear factors (not the show) step over this line and your burn in a fiery pit of hell.

Refuse to pay homage to this god and your crops will fail. So karma still plays very heavily into our belief system, in ANY religion it exists. Why is that if not to enforce the nature of man be law ab-bidding citizens.

I can't speak much for the idea of dead aliens..except to point out, the religion was brought forth by someone who wrote science fiction.
The bible is written by various MEN who might has well have written fantasy.
A man born from a virgin, men parting seas, men talking to burning bushes, Men on horseback with trumpets, Oh ya and Winged Men!!

So you can't pick on one without first seeing the nutzoid in all religions. Yes?


:D

[seabeyond]

23. this was my point on another thread. i agree

on edit, my conclusion

there are good things in this program. for me, all groups are sucker mentality. now, if we did as i like to be, that would mean no religion, aa, any of this stuff. not how it works. i also recognize that i may do much better individually, others are built to need want and desire group. how they travel

to believe it is what? intergalactic, in thought, can be just as real as an entity parting the red sea.

many religions and other orginizations milk money out of members, capitalism

if one choses to be a sucker, so be it. my contention is the essence, (whether stolen from religion, new age, self help) has intergrity and growth

gives southern califorians something to do. south has fundamentalism, calif has scientology. it is as it should be.

[TWiley]

25. Careful ......... they hear voices and talk to imaginary friends.

Do NOT piss them off. They are dangerous.

[dhinojosa]

26. Scientologist or Christians?

or both?

[TWiley]

45. Well, I was refering to the Christians.

I do not know what the Scientologists do. About all I know of them is that they apparently follow some book called Dianetics by Ron L Hubbard.

American Christians hate everyone. I cannot think of a single culture or different religion that they have any tolerance of.

The problem with Christian Evangelicals is that by defination, their faith is compatible with nothing but themselves. In fact, they even war amongst themselves.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. In my opinion, ALL religion is unecessary.

But Scientology is exponentially more fucked-up than Christianity. It's just a question of degree with me.

Plus, it's FUN to pick on Scientologists. What are they gonna do, point their E-meters at me and pray to Xenu for my destruction?!

[beam me up scottie]

33. What about picking on

xtianity ?
Should that be the only sacred cow on DU ?

[RandomKoolzip]

35. IF we don't want to alienate our Christian brethren, yes.

"Hello, fellow voter! Mind if I tell you your religion is shit?"

Scientologists are a much smaller voting bloc, therefore they're free game.

Sorry to get all cynical, but them's the fax.

[beam me up scottie]

47. So we should revere xtianity because

they have more voters than other cults ?

As in "I'll pretend to respect your fairy tales as long as your votes can throw an election" type thing ?

Damn, that's more insulting that me treating them all the same.

[RandomKoolzip]

52. I never said "revere."

As in "I'll pretend to respect your fairy tales as long as your votes can throw an election" type thing ?

Yup, I'm willing to put my criticism of Christianity on the back burner if it puts a Dem in the WH or helps take back the Senate. Call me craven, but I'll hold my tongue about certain things if we can help swing the pendulum back.


Not asking YOU to do the same, just sayin' that's my own personal policy.

[beam me up scottie]

54. Thanks for the honesty.

I doubt many others will be so frank.

[RandomKoolzip]

59. You're welcome.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I hafta go fix my e-meter. Are we "clear?"

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. A smaller voter block,

but one that is generally quite liberal.

I think the scientology bashing here is mostly based on the idea that it makes all liberals look like froot loops; guilt by association.

Pound for pound, scientologists are no scarier than any other religionists, and a lot less than most.

That doesn't mean they're not nuts, though.

[RandomKoolzip]

81. You said "pound for pound."

Don't you know that Scientologists who are "clear" have no weight?

[getmeouttahere]

34. Nice progressive, tolerant thinking folks!

if I didn't know better, I would think I got transported to the Freeper website

[RandomKoolzip]

38. It's a big tent.

[dhinojosa]

65. with different flavors of Kool Aid inside....

I think the tent should have "All religions subject to bashing" or "None religions subject to bashing" inside.

[RandomKoolzip]

41. Now I'm curious....

What part of my post struck you as "freeper-" ish? Just wondering.

[getmeouttahere]

58. Scientologists are a much smaller voting bloc, therefore they're free game

for starters

[RandomKoolzip]

62. That's something a freeper would say?

Freepers can't even SPELL "Scientology," much less know what they're all about.

[getmeouttahere]

84. It's the attitude, not the grammar or spelling...

[datasuspect]

43. let's do away with this word "bash"

you can have critical opinions that aren't necessarily "bashing."

they are merely critical opinions

[RandomKoolzip]

46. Thank you.

You have crystallized my own thoughts beautifully on this subject.

[dhinojosa]

66. I can't call a bull a chicken, so therefore

I can't call posts like "Tom Cruise and his scientology are getting out of hand." a mere critique.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Is this a critical opinion: " Name three things dumber than Scientology"?

Or would that be bashing ?

[datasuspect]

82. that would be a regarded opinion in the form of a question

now, seriously . . . since when did we become a nation of thin-skinned nancies?

[beam me up scottie]

87. Try posting that question replacing scientology with christianity and

let me know what happens.

Don't bother, I KNOW what will happen.

That's the point.

Christianity gets special consideration on DU.

Either that thread was over the line and should have been deleted.
(then why wasn't it ?)

or

It was acceptable and we should be able to mock christianity in the same fashion.

Right...

[RandomKoolzip]

91. That was my thread, in the Lounge.

It wasn't deleted, but if the mods found it deletable, I wouldn't have objected.

[beam me up scottie]

97. Right.

It's the double standard that is the bone of contention, not the actual words.

[RandomKoolzip]

86. Hey! That's my thread!

YAY! I've become a bone of contention! :bounce:

[beam me up scottie]

94. You didn't see the shitstorm that thread started?

Geez, they're still mopping up.

[RandomKoolzip]

103. No! Really?!

I posted that, then went to work.

I think chickenscratching won the e-meter.

My apologies if anyone got splattered with shit from that feces-tornado.

[beam me up scottie]

117. No biggie.

As you can see, it shined the light on a sacred cow and that's always good.

[Taxloss]

49. Scientology is so irrevocably messed up,

I personally see it not only as a ready target of mockery, but also a necessary target of public derision and scorn.

Christianity, however, is quite popular, and must therefore be enagaged with, but I certainly don't agree with it.

[ET Awful]

50. Because at least Christianity, at many times and places, has at least

attempted to help their fellow man in a manner that didn't involved making a profit. Most churches won't charge you $100 for the book of Genesis, $500 more for the book of Exodus, $50,000 more for the rest of the old testament, then $20,000 per book for the new testament, then, after you've spent every penny you have (including the money they convinced you to steal from Aunt Gertrude in Arkansas), tell you that you need to re-purchase the last few chapters before you're ready for the final chapter (or what they tell you at the time is the final chapter), then when they finally deem you ready (after haveing re-purchased several chapters), they finally sell you the "final" chapter wherein you find out that there are actually more chapters that won't be released unless X number of people join each branch of the church. Until then, the world isn't going to see the really "final" chapters.

Of course, this leaves out the other thing most Christian organizations don't do (like breaking into the IRS offices which several Scientologists were convicted of, including Hubbards wife), locking people in rooms and depriving them of food and water in favor of massive doses of vitamins (which granted some extremist Christian sects do, but it's hardly the normal practice in the vast majority of Christian churches).

[RandomKoolzip]

74. Good points.

At least Christianity has given us Martin Luther King, St. Francis of Assisi, and countless works of charity and selfless giving. Even if I don't agree with the cosmology and the dogmatism of their sect, I can at least acknowledge that they've done good works in the past, and that the values they uphold (I'm talking about the TRUE Christians here, not the Falwell/Rapture types) are good, sane values which further the betterment of humanity.

Scientology has given us....uh, Kirstie Alley and Tom Cruise.

[getmeouttahere]

85. In the name of Christianity....

BushCo has murdered 10's of thousands of Iraqis

in the name of Scientology, L Ron Hubbard has murdered...zero

[RandomKoolzip]

89. I could bring up Lisa McPherson, but what's the point?

I could bring up the Crusades, too, but again....what's the point? Isn't everyone and everything a product and paragon of dualism?

You and I will both continue believing what we already believe, and I'm fine with that.

[ET Awful]

102. No, BushCo has murdered them in the name of profit.

Many of their supporters who belong to the more extreme fringes of Christianity say it is for religious purposes, and even Bush has allegedly said such things, but oncea gain, they are the fringe of Christianity, not the majority (this is why so many religious organizations were against the war).

Bush's actions were not for religious gain but for monetary gain. If you wish to compare Bush or Neocons as a group to Scientology, then I will agree that there are similarities, but to compare all of Christianity to Scientology is to insult all of the Christians who have done good in the past.

I'm not a Christian, not a Scientologist, I'm not an "ist" of any kind. I may be an "ic" as in agnostic.

If you believe Scientology hasn't murdered anyone, I suggest you do some more research http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ is a good place to start.

[leftofthedial]

51. bash everything

especially "religion"

[beam me up scottie]

57. That's my policy.

Makes us popular, eh ?
I'd rather be fair and non biased.

[dhinojosa]

67. Hear, hear

I don't like being gagged.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

68. WHy the double standard?

If I posted this thread:

"Quick! Name three things dumber than Christianity:"

it would get deleted.

But yet this:

"Quick! Name three things dumber than Scientology:"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3484300&mesg_id=3484300

was not.

[dhinojosa]

73. Set and Match

That's what's going on.

[Taxloss]

83. I wonder how long "Quick! Name three things dumber than atheism!"

would stay up.

[beam me up scottie]

100. Most of us wouldn't get emotional and hit alert.

So it would probably last a while.

[Spider Jerusalem]

104. That one would stay, probably.

With atheists posting responses like "Okay...1) Christianity 2) Islam 3) Judaism"...

[dhinojosa]

114. Oh that would last for centuries....

Thousands of years from now aliens will hit the DU website and find out that Democrats were 100% Christian.

[Endangered Specie]

61. This is like comapriong apples to oranges...

Christianity is a religion
Scientology is a cult,

not just any cult:
- a cult of personality and brainwashing (LRH)
- a money making cult (scam)
- a criminal cult, indirectly and directly responsible for thievery, destruction of property, vandalism, harrasment, assault, injury and death.

- what they 'beleive' is not nearly as relevant as what they DO.

[dhinojosa]

70. Christians don't brainwash? make money? steal? destruct? etc?

Wow. uh.
Yikes.....

Do you wanna think about that for a while?

[Spider Jerusalem]

71. A "religion" is simply a cult that's gained respectability.

There's no difference in denotation, only in popular connotation. Christianity is just as much a cult (or perhaps more accurately a loose confederation of cults, considering the many fractures over the past two millenia). Sorry, but you're wrong...and there are quite a few criminal Christians, too; televangelists, "faith healers", et cetera, robbing people by preying on their fear and insecurity and using the money to buy mansions and silk suits...

[trotsky]

93. The distinction you're trying to make...

...is simply not there. Xianity has featured all of those bullet points, and many versions of it still do today.

[nonconformist]

72. I'm an equal opportunity basher myself nt

[dhinojosa]

75. EOB?

"Christians suck, Scientologist suck, and I am agnostic and therefore......well yes, I suck too"

I too must be a member of the EOB.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. "Sacred cows (of any kind) make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

Parenthesized comment added for emphasis of what Mark said.

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Here's my opinion

And my opinion alone. I don't care personally what someone believes in. I'm a Christian myself and even though I may not get some other religions it's their right to believe in it. God gave us freewill to choose to believe in Him or not. Not everybody's cup of tea is Christianity. Just like my cup of tea isn't Scientology. I may not understand it but I know there are people who don't understand Christianity. We have a Bill of Rights that states we have freedom of religion and freedom from religion. So if someone wants to believe in something, go ahead, who am I to stop you?

[derby378]

92. Without reading the other responses yet, here's my experience

Part of the appeal of Scientology is that, at the most basic levels, people who undergo auditing and other related exercises to deal with bad memories or bad behavior appear to gain some relief. Even many of Scientology's critics admit this, some of whom are ex-members, a few even being OTs who have passed through the Wall of Fire and entered the realm of New Era Dianetics.

Some of these critics have gone "squirrel," which is Org-speak for defecting from Scientology and attempting to start their own religion based on Hubbard's teachings. This has resulted in spinoffs such as Amprinistics, Dianology, and Freezone International - all of whom embrace much of Hubbard's teachings but have no further use for the Sea Org, the OSA, and what they claim is Hubbard's own double-dealing and history of pathological lying.

Best to leave it here for now. Never was a Scientologist myself.

[Zodiak]

99. Scientology may be Hubbard's Joke

I honestly think that Scientology is L. Ron Hubbard's great joke upon the world. The man's science-fiction is fraught with all sorts of references as to how stupid, greedy, and predicatble people are. Inventing a religion and reaping the rewards from it seems to be in keeping with the methods of the aliens in the "Invasion" series, and a great personal, private joke.

I don't know.....just my take on it having read a few of Hubbard's books and knowing very little about Scientology (except that there is a great internet activity called "Weekly World News or Scientology?" that really had me floored with what these people believe).

[dhinojosa]

115. interesting...nt

[beam me up scottie]

118. It's like the religious version of The Village People.

:evilgrin:

[Ikonoklast]

101. You are all very lucky today

as of this moment I am starting a new religion. No one has to bow down, worship, obey, sacrifice, destroy, finance, exclude, denigrate, or hold any particular tenet to belong. There will be no hierarchy or discernible structure to attain control over. Since my name just about sums up my feelings toward those who would use organized religion to control the lives of their followers, the first person I would not trust to follow is myself.

[beam me up scottie]

109. We are not worthy.....................

nt

[slackmaster]

105. All religions are wrong except Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

http://www.venganza.org/

[Taxloss]

112. May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

On a daily basis.

[dhinojosa]

116. Finally, mankind finally has a delicious religion.

pass the cheese, parmesean that is.

[hiphopnation]

107. I'm in the equal-opportunity bashing camp.

It should all be open to scrutiny. As in ALL religions, cults, sects, beliefs, theories, etc. You say you see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toast, I should have the right to laugh at you and call you a lunatic. You say you are waiting for a volcano to explode so that you can make it back to your home-planet (or whatever it is they believe), I should have the right to make fun of you. I say all potential for love, compassion, and human-understanding flows from artistic expression; you should, and do, have the right to make fun of me. Or, better yet, challenge my belief.

All I want to know is, regarding Christianity, what happened to the whole "helping the poor and sick and those less-fortunate than you" kind of approach to the world? You know, the one that Jesus talked about the most? I dare say that Christianity leaves itself much more open to scrutiny as it has seemingly strayed so much further from its original tenets than Scientology. Hell, I don't even know what Scientology's tenets are.

Again, equal-opportunity basher, here. :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

110. Another one !!!

It's getting crowded in here, but in a good way.

[dhinojosa]

113. But we cannot bash freely without being...

deleted by the man.

[hiphopnation]

120. my guess is

there are more christians than there are scientologists on this board. that might have something to do with it. not saying it's right, just offering and explanation.

[Moderator]

119. Locking

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DU Moderator

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.