I'm a liberal. I believe in science. I believe in God and Jesus too.

[Splinter Cell]

There seem to be just as many people that refuse to respect people of faith here at DU, as there are religious nuts that refuse to respect people that don't have faith in a religion.

I'm not the best Christian. I rarely attend church. However, I believe in God and Jesus, as well as sciences like evolution. Is there a reason some here would think less of somebody like myself for believing in God?

For those that say yes, how do you know? How can you be sure? You could be as wrong as anyone else, yet many still seem to see people of faith as foolish.

I don't know the answers, but I'm sure enough to say that something created this all. It didn't just happen.

[RandomKoolzip]

1. Welcome to DU!

[sui generis]

2. here's my take on it:

this is a political forum. If something someone does in the name of religion impacts politics for everyone, it should be discussed on its merits as a political topic, and not one of personal belief.

The problem is that people on both sides love to posture and take offense and then the original POLITICAL impact gets obscured.

Personally the only conversation I think believers and non-believers are capable of having together on the topic is where to go have dinner. Neither side is going to convince or convert the other and it's rude and dishonest to expect "respect" for your viewpoint from someone who has the opposite view.

[Splinter Cell]

10. ?

It's "rude and dishonest" to expect someone to respect your point of view if they don't agree? That's not the way I was brought up.

There are some people on the non-religious side that act with just as little or no class as hardcore bible-thumpers.

Respecting other points of view and expecting to have your views respected has never been "rude and dishonest". It should be a goal for EVERYONE.

[Inland]

12. a thread calling for respect shouild probably not bring it up.

Not talking about it goes a long way.
See my post number 11

[sui generis]

32. sorry, I didn't mean that in any personal way

gee whillickers is everyone out to be offended?

My point is that it is an unreasonable expectation to think that you can have a polite USEFUL conversation about religion once the reasons for your beliefs are brought up.

It's dishonest to think that I can have a "good" conversation as an atheist, with a Southern Baptist. I can't. All we can do is bray our subjective stances and walk away.

And let's split hairs about "respecting". Accepting is the word you are looking for. If I really "respected" someone else's point of view in conflict to my own it would be at the expense of my own.

I accept your point of view. I do not respect its validity in my worldview.

Hope that clarifies a bit - I'm not trying to be an ass.

[Misunderestimator]

59. You know what? I don't expect you to respect my atheism.

The very tenets of Christianity insist that you believe that what you believe is all there is. How, then, could you respect my lack of belief? I don't think that's possible. And I don't expect it from you.

And until you actually have the answers, I'm not going to respect the "fact" that you believe in god or jesus anymore than I respect the fact that scientologists believe they're from outer space.

[Inland]

11. He can expect respect, if not for religious views, for his political ones

While his religious views may not command respect, he himself does. So avoiding picking a fight, taking huge umbrage, or otherwise engaging in a little communal bloodletting is always a good idea as far as attitudes re: religions go.

Just saying.

[sui generis]

34. agreed

I probably didn't word my response as eloquently as I should have to avoid angst and umbrage.

It's a bit prickly in here today.

[DanCa]

3. I believe in god and evolution

but not in the gop piles that pretend to be holier than though. That is the reason why I try to differentiate between the god christians and the posers.

[The Magistrate]

4. There Is No Reason For Any To Do So, Sir

People have the right to go to Hell by whatever road and in whatever handbasket they choose, in my view....

[mondo joe]

5. Just one point: if all this "didn't just happen" then how did God "just

happen"?

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Why not just make ten louder?

...But these go to eleven.

[FreedomAngel82]

6. I'm the same as you

I too am Christian and liberal and pretty left-leaning. I also love science. I love figuring out how the Earth works and was created and all that. I don't see how someone could not like science. If God created the Universe and all the planets then he did create science as a part of it, right? I always loved science themed classes (biology, chemistry etc) in high school. :D

[Rainbowreflect]

23. That is how I feel as well.

I have always been curious & questioning. I don't have all the answers, the only thing I know for sure is that there is more out there then we can understand or know.

[BOSSHOG]

7. Respect is not my issue

When religious zealots who hate in the name of Jesus Christ have as their agenda the desire to destroy the constitution and force all Americans to live as the bible tells us to then this veteran will stridently voice his objections. Believe what you want; worship or don't worship; go to church; don't go to church but don't force your religious "beliefs" on me by changing or altering laws.

You are free to believe because of the constituion. Don't take that freedom away from the vast majority of american citizens because of religious zealotry.

Shall we segue into a post of christians and hypocrisy?

[Splinter Cell]

18. Try

Try not put everyone into a group, just because they believe in the Christian faith. Otherwise you're doing the same thing as those you are pointing out.

True Christians don't attack others, even if they disagree.

My only brother is gay. I love him anyway. I don't judge him or think less of him or think it's wrong. The key is to take everything on a personal level. That's what so many on the right don't understand.

You can't study faith like math. There are no exact points to know. You have to create your own thoughts on every subject, and do the best you can.

[BOSSHOG]

28. I haven't put everyone into one group

I think religiously insane zealots are trying to destroy this country one constitutional amendment at a time. If you are not part of that group I am not referring to you. I do believe the work of such liberty hating fascists should be exposed loudly and often in this country. I also believe that such fascists have no idea how lucky they are to live in this country under our constitution.

[The Magistrate]

29. What Is A True Christian, Sir?

Competition for that title seems fierce indeed....

[aka-chmeee]

37. True Christian

I think, based upon observation here and in the real world, the "True" christian is one who is present when christianity or christians are being discussed, especially in an unfavorable context.
They rally to the cross and exclaim that those whose acts are in question are not "True christians" and are therefore merely exceptions to the rule defining what ALL other christians really are.

[The Magistrate]

38. But That, Sir

Leads us no closer to defining what beliefs and actions are displayed by a "true Christian"....

[Kraklen]

49. I don't consider myself a christian...

But I usually consider "true Christians" to be those that follow the actual teachings of Christ; e.g. "turn the other cheek" or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or "do onto others as they'd do onto you."

But like I said, I'm not a Christian. So I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Welcome to DU, aka-Chmeee!

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

31. So you are an adequate judge of who is and isn't a "true christian"?

nt

[GeekMonkey]

52. Love Him Anyway?

As if his being gay was something you had to overcome to love him?

I don't want to paint you as a bigot, but maybe you would want to rephrase that a bit, as to avoid it being taken the wrong way. (unless, of course, that's how you meant it, in which case, im disgusted)

[Misunderestimator]

64. That was my reaction too...

Basically, it reads that his brother is big old sinner because he's gay, but he loves him in spite of it. This is one of the many reasons why I have no respect for Christianity.

(And since he didn't reword it after your post, I'm going to assume he meant it that way as well.)

[Geoff R. Casavant]

8. Where does that faith come from?

My philosophy has always been to never mock or seek to bring down another person's faith, because you never know when faith may be all he has left. The only exception is when that person seeks to actively impose his faith on me. You aren't doing that, so expect no mocking from me.

[BOSSHOG]

13. Welcome Teammate

Its great to have another one who raised his right hand and swore to support and defend the CONSTITUTION on DU. I appreciate your post. This argument has become muddled. Plain and simple don't alter the constitution to reflect your religious beliefs. And don't force me to think the way you do. I look forward to your future posts.

[sam sarrha]

9. welcome and dont think a vocal minority represents us all.. just like

everywhere else there is a group that vents.. I welcome them because that means we are not robots of the leash masters... it means there are free thinkers that are giving you the opportunity to be tollerant of them....

I personally suffer from PTSD from childhood torture in a fundi church.. I have my own issues about the fundies and the minions of Leo Strauss and the Dominion types... but i make a dedicated effort to be specific and i use the dictionary to qualify definations.. sometimes to no avail... i try to share information and clarify the disinformation of the Reich.

but, there isnt a mission statement here to bash christians or any religion..

[sam sarrha]

25. A lot of what people are actually complaining about is this..LINK>

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia

[insane_cratic_gal]

14. In the age of Internet

Respect for ideas do not exist they hide behind anonymity.


Is it right? Absolutely not, but it happens all of the time.

Personally I believe what practice, I would never say anything behind someone's back on "on-line" that I would say to someone's face.

In the age of internet, go see a political story on Yahoo (message area) to see how bad and disrespectful it really is out there. I can tell you it's no where as bad in here.

[madrchsod]

15. join the club....

i believe in what christ said and try to lead my life that way.don`t know about the god thing but if it works for some so be it..

[Barak And Roll]

16. I've been suprised by

the fact that I've met many Christian voters who think Bush is absolute scum, believe in evolution but also want to overturn Roe v. Wade. I've also known Christians who believe that Jesus was not the son of God. I don't think one issue can define you as a voter. I respect people who can stand up and wholeheartedly say they believe in God just as I respect the faith of someone who says there is no God. Right now, we're fighting against a Republican Party that has no respect for other people's faith, so there is going to be some criticism of their religiois beliefs. I've seen many threads on here apologizing for using coverall terms like Christian to talk about Republicans when evangelical or theocrat are more appropriate.
The sad thing is, the Repulbicans seem to have hijacked your religion. People who say they are Christian are assumed to vote Republican. But if we could take one lesson from Republicans, it would be political unity. Your personal beliefs are your own, but regardless of your faith, we are Democrats.

[madrchsod]

21. interesting...

yes the republicans have hijacked religion. i`m old enough to remember when someones religion was pretty much a private matter,now people wear it on their sleeve..glad to see another chicago du member.

[BMG]

17. Christianity today is false. Almost everywhere.

Jesus stood for not judging others, a lot of christians today just have the wrong idea.

[GeekMonkey]

54. Jesus Was Just a Dude

Jesus Was Just a Dude

you play victim like
someone is attacking you
youre pretending like
you arent doing what they do
you're in my face with your
superstitious nonsense
forcing me to live in
your world that doesnt make sense

'cause the world isnt flat
theres no heaven in the sky
everything's not controlled
by some omnipresent guy
you build stained glass windows
while people have no food
the one thing you dont realize
is jesus was just a dude

yes jesus was just a dude
not a god, not a savior, just a dude
the truth might upset your mood
but jesus was just a dude

you sit and wonder why
people are distrusting you
when they look up in the sky
they are not seeing what you do
youve been told all your life
that god is real and loves you
said prayers every night
in hopes that he'd accept you

now im not saying that
jesus was not one of the good guys
some of the things he said
i still try to live my life by
i try to give needy people help
and give hungry people food
but i have come to realize
that jesus was just a dude

yes jesus was just a dude
not a god, not a savior, just a dude
the truth might upset your mood
but jesus was just a dude
yes jesus was just a dude
not a god, not a savior, just a dude
the truth might upset your mood
but jesus was just a dude
yeah jesus was just a dude
yeah jesus was just a dude

[Endangered Specie]

19. If religion makes you a better person... so be it

[slackmaster]

20. I think you're in good company

Most Christians I know aren't flat-Earthers.

[datasuspect]

22. respect is earned

it isn't automatic because you profess belief in a god or gods

[Rainbowreflect]

24. Should disrespect be earned as well?

[datasuspect]

27. it's all how you perceive

and yes, there are some people who are not worthy of respect.

[Rainbowreflect]

35. Of course their are people who are not worthy of respect.

My question is should someone have earned it before another person shows them disrespect? Or is ok to just disrespect them before you know them due to a dislike of their political or religious views?

[Splinter Cell]

26. I'm not talking about "God" when I talk about respect.

I think you respect someones views if you agree or not. Some folks on here seem to think that showing respect for another view on ANY topic means agreement. You shouldn't have to meet anyones admiration to have them respect another opinion, as long as you show respect to theirs.

[The Magistrate]

30. And By The Same Token, Sir

Some people perceive expression of disagreement in any degree as assault....

"It is strange the doctrine of Original Sin finds so little favor in the modern age, as it is perhaps the one item of Christian dogma susceptible of empirical proof."

[MissB]

33. Use the alert button next time

No reason to start a thread on this topic, just hit alert. It is located in the lower left hand corner. Let the mods take care of it.

[beam me up scottie]

36. I would like to see

examples of disrespect for "people of faith" on DU. Do you mean the people who were mocking scientology ?

I have no more or less respect for you than anyone else I meet on DU.

I have the right to criticize your religion, your religious leaders and anything your religion advocates. If you perceive any of that criticism to be disrespectful to you, then there is a problem with your perception.

You can criticize my lack of belief(s) and I won't be offended.

[Lerkfish]

42. LOL! I'll have to disagree with you somewhat.

well....
I think we both know there was a huge flap in the religion forum over my mistakenly referring to atheism as a 'belief" in which many were offended. It wasn't even a criticism. In fact, I was being very respectful, just made a bad word choice.

you and I met in that conversation and came to respect each other (or at least I you).

however, I would disagree that some nonreligious people are much different than anyone, for that matter, who are quick to take offense at criticism of their belief/nonbelief.

therefore, do those nonbelievers have a problem in their perceptions?

I think ANY criticism can be taken in a negative light, even well-meaning criticism...and it isn't relegated to just religion. If you'll recall, there are people here ascribing to one candidate or another who take criticism of their candidate as an offense.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Actually, most atheists will get upset if you try to define

atheism, as would theists in the same situation.

Defining ourselves has nothing to do with believing or not, it is each individual's right to do so for himself and to resent anyone trying to usurp that right.

But if you were to criticize atheism or atheists, I doubt you would get the same emotional response as you would from criticizing a religion.

We have no religion to defend, no philosophy, no gods, no dogma.

What is there to defend ?

Atheism is the default setting.

It would be like me taking offense if someone called me human, or female.

[Lerkfish]

46. well, the only response I have is that

I do think you accepted the situation relatively calmly, but there were other atheists who did not.

I just think its a common human reaction, no matter who it is. What I don't agree with is attempting to portray nonreligious people as paragons of civility and politeness and religious people as "batshit crazy" about criticism.

Reality lies somewhere between.

[beam me up scottie]

47. Who do you see doing the complaining ?

I don't see post after post in thread after thread of atheists claiming DU is anti-atheist and that atheist bashing is rampant, do you ?

How many atheists have said that we may just leave the party if we're not made to feel welcome ?

How many atheists wanted DU to change the rules so that others would have to be more respectful of atheists and atheism ?

I don't use a broad brush and you know that, so tell me where do I try to "portray nonreligious people as paragons of civility and politeness and religious people as "batshit crazy" about criticism." ?

[Lerkfish]

48. well, our perceptions will have to differ.

I think in general we see, or don't see, what we prefer to see or not see.

[Inland]

53. I remember getting a dozen posts for not capitalizing "Atheist"

and you telling me I had "issues with atheism" and getting a shitload of trouble for posting about a hypothetical "hateful atheist".

But you just tell us what the rules are now, and we'll follow them.

[beam me up scottie]

60. Some other time, Inland.

I believe in answering all of my replies so I'm acknowledging your beef with me and we can continue this when I'm feeling up to it again.

I bear you no ill will, nor do I towards any DU'er I've gone round with.

'til we meet again.

[Inland]

61. selfdelete

[beam me up scottie]

63. Thanks, Inland.

I won't forget that.
Really, thanks.

on edit: nevermind.
I thought you were making a kind gesture.

[Inland]

62. Unfortunately, I don't doubt it.

eom

[Inland]

51. *sigh* Exhibit "A" appears.

I can think of one disrespect---the disrespect shown a relatively new DU member by an presumption that he has no reading comprehension.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. So if you say that "Something Created This All. It Didn't Just Happen"

You are expressing your belief, right?

So... if I say that I don't believe in invisible beings for which there is no physical evidence, I am expressing my belief, too.

It has been my experience that many of the people who strenuously object to a "lack of respect" for religious people here are objecting to comments or statements essentially identical to the one above.

I don't "think less" of people for believing in "God", but I'm certainly as entitled to my opinion that they are not correct as they are to theirs that I am. The problem, as I see it, is many religious people are not used to having the tenets of their faith discussed, much less challenged, at all.

Lastly, I've met far more religious people who seem to be incapable of conceiving that they are "wrong" about this stuff than I have atheists. That, too, is my experience-- and hardly "bigotry".

[BeTheChange]

41. Welcome..

Some people tend to paint groups with a broad brush. Im disheartened when I see it here and yes, it is very rampant. If you are talking about Christians there is a very very good chance several people are going to glom on and judge immediately. They dont get past the word Christian. You could say a Christian saved a puppy and that would be followed by several attempts at being witty or hateful.

I will never forget the thread where someone posted about how a woman had thwarted an attacker who was trying to rape her by reciting bible verses. The responses were some of the most tasteless, biased things I have ever seen. It sure wasnt enlightened or in respect of this woman who had, by whatever means, protected her body from the advances of someone else.

My only suggestion is that perhaps if we try to set positive examples as Christians who aren't the stereotypes that many believe, we can show them that they should put their broad brushes away.

[H2O Man]

45. "Intolerance betrays

a want of faith in one's cause." -- Gandhi

The majority of atheists are confident enough about their system of belief not to feel the need to insult others. Likewise, the majority of religious folks feel confident enough about their system of belief to not feel compelled to insult others by pushing their religion on them.

[Bouncy Ball]

57. Very well said. I totally agree.

[GeekMonkey]

50. as soon as believers start respecting non-believers

we'll respect the believers

but, telling me i'm going to burn forever if i dont follow some magic man's rules is NOT respecting me.

i dont understand how some superstitions are supposed to be respected when others are ok to ridicule. how is it ok to ridicule someone that thinks a black cat crossing their path is bad luck but it's not ok to ridicule someone that thinks some magic man in the sky controls everything and created everything?

i think ALL superstition is fair game for ridicule, and if your 'faith' is so strong, it shouldn't bother you

[Bouncy Ball]

58. I have to say,

I'm a Christian and I couldn't find a thing in your post to disagree with. Cheers.

[friesianrider]

55. As evidenced by my avatar...

I love Christ, and everything He stands for. I do not regularly attend church because I have yet to find one that fits my beliefs, but I DO pray regularly. IMHO, Christ is an excellent role model for my life, and most people's lives. That being said, I am passionately pro-choice and pro-gay rights. I do not pretend to know what Christ would feel about abortion or gays, but I know it isn't my job to judge ANYONE. Period. Only Christ can judge us - not me, not Bush, not the Christian Coalition...no one. All I know is that I should accept everyone's choices in life, and show compassion for others. I'd rather come down on the side of being TOO tolerant and accepting than being TOO hateful and intolerant. (that being said, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin because gays are clearly born that way). I live my life the best way I can, trying to always do the right thing, and be as compassionate, acceptance, loving, understanding, and helpful to others as I possibly can. I don't always to a good job, but I try my best.

Despite all of this, I am VERY guilty of eye-rolling as soon as someone spews into what I just typed above...because I assume they are GOP and take Christianity down a hateful avenue. To me, it is a no-brainer that true Christians who believe in Christ's teachings would support liberals and the Democrats. Compassion for ALL people (and animals!), caring for the poor and sick, helping the unfortunate, accepting others...etc etc...these are all "moral" values to me, and that is why I am a Christian Democrat.

I think may on DU do believe in God/Christ, but like me, immediately "fear" someone (for lack of a better word) who goes into the God stuff because of the way most Christians are today - and THAT is what is hurting Christianity today. It's a shame so many Christians take their religion and faith to such a hateful, intolerant, and uncompassionate place. I don't believe judging others from a position of superior morals is that God intended.

[Bouncy Ball]

56. I believe in science. I'm a liberal. I believe in God and Jesus, too.

But I don't really give a good shit if anyone disrespects my point of view. What does that mean anyway? Does that mean they say "HA! You're stupid for believing in a higher power? HA HA HA!!! You believe in fairy tales! You are sad, because you have a need for an imaginary friend! HA HA HA!!"

I guess it'd be the same if I said "HA! You are stupid for not believing in a higher power! HA HA HA!!! You'll burn in hell, HA HA HA!!!"

In both cases, we're just talking about rudeness. But if a person said that to me (about believing in fairy tales, etc) I would still think they had every right to say it. Whatever happened to "I may not agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?"

I mean, who cares what other people think about your religious beliefs? Does it diminish them? It doesn't for me. My atheist friends just MAY think I'm a bit off my nut to believe in a higher power and that's A-OK with me, they can think that. So what?

(On edit, both examples I gave are alertable behavior on DU.)