What are the REAL U.S. troop casualties?

[Just Me]

Randi mentioned that the McLaughlin Group has determined that the DoD is hiding actual U.S. troop casualties: deaths and injuries. I realize that there are those who passionately refute the higher figures; BUT, I just want the friggin' truth!!!

Let's start with the injured: are there 10,000, 20,000, 40,000?

With respect to deaths :cry: : are there 1,800, 2,500, 4,200?

It pisses me off that we are NOT getting accurate figures!!! :grr:

How many American soldiers have REALLY been sacrificed for the BushCo/neoCon corporacratic profiteering blood-bath?!?!?! I fucking want to know, RIGHT NOW!!!! :grr:

[Richard Steele]

1. Not this urban myth again....

It's been DEBUNKED, time and again.
And again,
and again,
and again.....
:banghead:

[LynnTheDem]

4. No kidding. I dunno whether to

:cry:

or

:banghead:

:D

[Just Me]

8. Lynn, I'm not knocking your hard work, at all!!!!

But :wtf:

I swear to Gawd,...if these Mo Fos are intentionally hiding the human cost,...

Well, and they would, you KNOW they would do that.

Don't :cry: or :banghead:

I just want the goddamned TRUTH!!!! I am SICK of the goddamn LIES!!! :grr:

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I don't know if it's true or false

but nothing would surprise me with these people. Someone should look into it though (psst Greg Palast).

[Just Me]

13. They PROHIBIT pictures. They PROHIBIT view of arrivals. They PROHIBIT,..

,...way too much not to be secreting away. Excuse my frank language BUT these heartless fuckers are willing to deceive in every way to get what they want.

THEY ARE THE CRIMINAL BUTTSUCKS THAT WOULD ASSERT WE, "THE PEOPLE" CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH,...BECAUSE THOSE CRIMINAL SCUM USE "THE PEOPLE" FOR COVER!!! :grr:

If they actually believed in "democracy", if they had any faith whatsoever in "the people", they wouldn't betray and fuck us like this.

But, the BushCo/Neocon cabal do betray and fuck us like we mean nothing, absolutely nothing. :grr:

*i apologize for my angry language tonight but i am so freakin' angry at those who treat the rest of us VALUABLE HUMAN BEINGS like we're expendible for their complete and utter failure at being valuable to humanity.

[LynnTheDem]

19. Hang on.

Just Me, every person at the ICCC is anti-bush and anti-Iraq war. You know without doubt by now that includes me. Or you should know that.

The picture prohibition has been in place since 1991. Clinton also enforced the "Dover test" no-pics rule, although he did allow certain events of coffin ceremonies to be photo'ed.

They do not prohibit views of arrivals; they allow family members in.

Fact; the majority of US military & families WANT the prohibitions in place. *I* don't, but my own US military hubby does. As do the majority of soldiers & their families.

Fact; thousands of people would have to be involved in any such cover-up. bush is just not competent enough to cover up such a massive thing.

NOT ONE NAME of a soldier whose death was "hidden" has ever been made public; NOT ONE FAMILY has ever spoken out & said their soldier isn't on any of the many lists/memorials.

Be as angry as you like. I'm fucking FURIOUS because I have lost too damn many FRIENDS from bush's bullshit war.

23 fucking FUNERALS. I have attended 23 FUNERALS in the past 2 years don't EVEN talk to me about ANGRY!!!

But troops' deaths are not being hidden.

[LynnTheDem]

12. I understand what you're saying, Just Me. Look, try this;

Go to a US military base, and ask any 10 soldiers if they'd willingly cover up US soldiers' deaths in Iraq.

Wait...I like you, so on second thought, DON'T do that! :D

Just teasin' ya there; US soldiers, the very vast majority of them, would not cover up their fellow soldiers' deaths. My husband, active duty career officer, would punch anyone (male) saying otherwise in their teeth for saying what to him is an insult beyond the pale.

And thousands of US soldiers and their friends and their families and their towns etc would all have to be in on the cover-up.

Wounded and/or sick troops, yes, the US military is not documenting every one of them, that's beyond any doubt. And they can get away with it because actual names are not given on sick/wounded soldiers, so no one can do any checking.

But for deaths, there are names given in lists and travelling memorials etc, and they are checked. When Pat makes the tiniest mistake posting info on soldiers killed (on ICCC) she gets hammered by the soldier's family, friends, fellow soldiers, usually within the hour.

-If the Pentagon really wanted to cover up deaths of troops, all they have to do is stop releasing any death notices at all.

-Why do we not have even ONE NAME out of the supposed "thousands" hidden? Is bush REALLY that competent??! Don't think so. ;)

-Contrary to some people's belief, military families do have access to the internet. Besides that, each unit has a Support group that is in constant contact with the troops.

-The "hiding deaths" always comes with "only those killed on the battleground are included", and half of that rumor is flat-out wrong and easily debunked. Add to that not even one name of the "thousands" supposedly being hidden and this rumor is just not credible.

There are, I am sure, a handful of deaths which have slipped through the cracks. But not thousands, not hundreds, not even 40 or 50.

And not on purpose. The chance of the Pentagon being caught is 100%.

[Just Me]

21. I have a different, not objectionable perspective.

First, the Pentagon has less than a 50/50 percent chance of getting caught AT THIS TIME. Remember who has taken charge, yes. All those who fail to fall in line are subdued, dismissed or removed.

Second, hiding thousands of deaths in a population of 250+ million people isn't that difficult (unless "the people" are alerted to such deception).

Third, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME FORWARD AND ASKED WHY THEIR SACRIFICED SOLDIER WAS LISTED.

Fourth, you pretend that people track information rather than struggle in and through their difficult lives. Do you think these fuckers won't take advantage of that,...even refute the truth to keep our poor people who have suffered losses "quiet".

Fifth, maybe it is a mistake to assume that more than half of military families have internet access,...maybe.

Sixth, do you acknowledge your own vulnerability to deception in spite of your hard work? :shrug:

You are working hard to grasp the truth,...but, there are those working who have the resources to hide it.

[DemonFighterLives]

20. I agree with your take Just Me

There are plenty of apologists and debunkers, but the only facts come from the Rumfeldian pentagon. This in itself distorts the information and added to this regimes penchant for killing off reporters and bringing loads of caskets home late at night. Well :argh:

[hootinholler]

24. I agree that Lynn does great work...

But she cannot count the numbers of 'contractors' that have been kia or wounded.

I would also like to know how many legs, arms, severe brain injuries, etc have occurred.

-Hoot

[Geoff R. Casavant]

2. I read on Buzzflash a few days ago . . .

. . . an article to the effect that the 1740 deaths represented only those to actually died on Iraqi soil, and omitted those who were wounded and died en route to or at military hospitals in Germany. The author of this article said he was going to post a list of official casualties, and those who had lost a loved one who had shipped out to Iraq (the military still sends casualty assistance officers to the family of anyone who dies on active duty, regardless of how the death occurs) could see if their family member appeared on the official list.

I have not heard any follow up on this, however on NPR the other day I did here the commentator talk about "1740 deaths in Iraq," which could be taken either way. The author of the article mentioned that his source offered the opinion that the actual death toll may be as high as 9000 or so.

Has anyone heard anything more up to date?

[LynnTheDem]

3. What you read is incorrect.

Should I bother, or should I just :banghead:

LOL!

Go to; http://www.icasualties.org/oif /

At the top, click on "Fatality Details"

On the details page, at the bottom far right, set filter to "country of death" and choose "USA".

At the bottom far left, click on "set filter".

Died in the USA from Iraq;

1856 06/03/05 Mendoza, Antonio Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 5th Bat., 11th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - explosion Brooke Army Med Center, TX Santa Ana California US
1830 05/24/05 Collins, Randy D. Sergeant 1st Class 36 U.S. Army 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Long Beach California US
1797 05/11/05 Schmidt III, John T. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 8th Marines, 2nd Marine Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - explosion Brooke Army Med Center, TX Brookfield Connecticut US
1790 05/10/05 Bordelon, Michael J. 1st Sergeant 37 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 24th Infantry Reg., 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Morgan City Louisiana US
1768 05/02/05 Little, Tommy S. Staff Sergeant 47 U.S. Army National Guard 2nd Battalion, 114th Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Aliceville Alabama US
1726 04/12/05 Dickens, Tyler J. Corporal 20 U.S. Army 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack (?) Brooke Army Med Center, TX Columbus Georgia US
1677 03/03/05 Jones, Michael D. Sergeant 1st Class 43 U.S. Army National Guard 133rd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness Syracuse, NY Unity Maine US
1494 01/04/05 Washington, Bennie J. Sergeant 25 U.S. Army 44th Engineer Battalion, 2nd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Atlanta Georgia US
1483 12/29/04 Nelson, Craig L. Specialist 21 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 156th Armor Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Bossier City Louisiana US
1393 11/27/04 Smith, Michael A. Sergeant 24 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Bat., 153rd Infantry, 39th Brig. Cmbt. Tm., 1st Cav. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Camden Arkansas US
1382 11/24/04 Nolte, Nicholas S. Sergeant 25 U.S. Marine 2nd Low Alt. Air Defense Bat., 2nd Mar. Aircraft Wing, IIMEF Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Falls City Nebraska US
1381 11/23/04 Edinger, Benjamin C. Sergeant 24 U.S. Marine 2nd Force Reconnaissance Co., II Marine Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Green Bay Wisconsin US
1370 11/19/04 Downey, Michael A. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 1st Bat., 3rd Marines, 3rd Marine Div., III Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Phoenix Arizona US
1280 11/07/04 McVey, Otie Joseph Sergeant 1st Class 53 U.S. Army Reserve 706th Transportation Company Non-hostile - illness Beaver, WV Oak Hill West Virginia US
1246 10/22/04 Gadsden, Jonathan E. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 1st Combat Engr. Bat., 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Vet's Hospital, Tampa, FL Charleston South Carolina US
1205 10/03/04 Pettaway Jr., James L. Staff Sergeant 37 U.S. Army Reserve 223rd Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Brooke Army Med Center, TX Baltimore Maryland US
1200 09/30/04 Nolan, Allen Specialist 38 U.S. Army Reserve 660th Transp. Co., 88th Regional Readiness Command Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Marietta Ohio US
1172 09/19/04 Adams, Brandon E. Sergeant 22 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 32nd Inf. Reg., 10th Mountain Div. Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Hollidaysburg Pennsylvania US
1061 08/09/04 Houghton, Andrew R. Captain 25 U.S. Army 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Houston Texas US
1028 07/21/04 Engel, Mark E. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 2nd Lt. Armd Recon Bat., 2nd Mar. Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Brooke Army Med Center, TX Grand Junction Colorado US
1017 07/15/04 Mardis Jr., Paul C. Staff Sergeant 25 U.S. Army 3rd Bat., 5th Special Forces Group Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Palmetto Florida US
987 07/02/04 Martin, Stephen G. Staff Sergeant 39 U.S. Army Reserve 330th Military Police Detachment Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Warsaw/Rhinelander Wisconsin US
811 04/22/04 Dunham, Jason L. Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 7th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Scio (Allegany Co.) New York US
687 03/20/04 Vega, Michael W. 1st Lieutenant 41 U.S. Army National Guard 223rd Military Intelligence Co., 223rd Mil. Intel. Battalion Hostile - vehicle accident Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Lathrop California US
587 01/05/04 Frist, Luke P. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Reserve 209th Quartermaster Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Brookston Indiana US
534 12/02/03 Young, Ryan C. Sergeant 21 U.S. Army A Co., 1st Bat., 16th Infantry Reg., 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Corona California US
511 11/20/03 Tyrrell, Scott Matthew Private 21 U.S. Army C Co., 299th Engineer Bat., 4th Infantry Div. Non-hostile - munitions accident Brooke Army Med Center, TX Sterling Illinois US
459 11/08/03 Jimenez, Linda C. Sergeant 39 U.S. Army 2nd Sqd. Combat Spt. Aviation, 2nd Armored Cav. Reg. Non-hostile - accidental fall Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Brooklyn New York US
378 10/01/03 Ramos, Tamarra J. Specialist 24 U.S. Army 3rd Armor Med. Co., Medical Spt. Squadron, 3rd Armd Cav. Non-hostile - unspecified injury Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Quakertown Pennsylvania US
356 09/16/03 Pinkston, Foster Sergeant 47 U.S. Army National Guard 878th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness Augusta, GA Warrenton Georgia US
347 09/07/03 Thompson, Jarrett B. Specialist 27 U.S. Army Reserve 946th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Dover Delaware US
254 07/04/03 Coons, James Curtis Master Sergeant 35 U.S. Army 385th Signal Company, 54th Signal Battalion Non-hostile - suicide Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Conroe Texas US
231 06/18/03 Latham, William T. Staff Sergeant 29 U.S. Army Troop E, 2nd Squad., 3rd Armored Cav. Hostile - hostile fire Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Kingman Arizona US

Died in Germany from Iraq;

1816 05/22/05 Seesan, Aaron N. 1st Lieutenant 25 U.S. Army 73rd Engineer Company, 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Massillon Ohio US
1725 04/09/05 LaWare, Casey M. Private 1st Class 19 U.S. Army 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Non-hostile - building fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Redding California US
1678 03/04/05 Garceau, Seth K. Sergeant 27 U.S. Army National Guard 224th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Oelwein Iowa US
1434 12/09/04 Renehan, Kyle J. Corporal 21 U.S. Marine Marine Air Ctrl. Sq-2, Mar. Air Ctrl. Gp-28, 2nd Mar. Air Wing Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Kaiserslautern Oxford Pennsylvania US
1410 12/01/04 Pena, Javier Obleas-Prado Gunnery Sergeant 36 U.S. Marine 2nd Recon Battalion, 2nd Marine Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Falls Church Virginia US
1378 11/20/04 Heredia, Joseph J. Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Santa Maria California US
1376 11/20/04 Welke, Joseph T. Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 1st Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Rapid City South Dakota US
1231 10/13/04 Baker, Ronald W. Specialist 34 U.S. Army National Guard 39th Support Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Cabot Arkansas US
1194 09/28/04 Prewitt, Tyler D. Sergeant 22 U.S. Army 2nd Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Phoenix Arizona US
1053 08/05/04 McCune, Donald R. Specialist 20 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Bat., 161st Infantry Reg., 81st Brigade Combat Team Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Ypsilanti Michigan US
933 06/03/04 Bolding, Todd J. Lance Corporal 23 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 4th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Manvel Texas US
901 05/18/04 Chaney, William D. Staff Sergeant 59 U.S. Army National Guard B Company, 1st Battalion, 106th Aviation Regiment Non-hostile - illness Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Schaumburg Illinois US
876 05/08/04 Holmes, James J. Specialist 28 U.S. Army National Guard C Company, 141st Engineer Combat Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. East Grand Forks Minnesota US
809 04/20/04 Fox, Bradley C. 1st Sergeant 34 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 36th Inf. Reg., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Adrian Michigan US
682 03/19/04 Matthews, Clint Richard "Bones" Specialist 31 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 18th Infantry Reg., 1st Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Bedford Pennsylvania US
679 03/18/04 Sutphin, Ernest Harold Private 1st Class 21 U.S. Army 2nd Bat., 11th Field Artillery, 25th Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Parkersburg West Virginia US
447 11/06/03 Fisher, Paul F. Sergeant 39 U.S. Army National Guard Det. 1, Co. F,106th Aviation Battalion Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Homburg Hospital Cedar Rapids Iowa US
320 08/17/03 Ivory, Craig S. Specialist 26 U.S. Army 501st Forward Spt. Co., 173rd Airborne Non-hostile - illness - heat related Homberg Univ. Hospital Port Matilda Pennsylvania US
319 08/14/03 Kirchhoff, David M. Private 1st Class 31 U.S. Army National Guard 2133rd Transportation Company Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Anamosa Iowa US
303 08/06/03 Colunga, Zeferino E. Specialist 20 U.S. Army 4th Squadron, 2nd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - illness - acute leukemia Homburg Hospital Bellville Texas US
266 07/12/03 Neusche, Joshua M. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Reserve 203rd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Homburg Hospital Montreal Missouri US
260 07/08/03 McKinley, Robert L. Private 23 U.S. Army H & H Company, 1-101st Air Assault Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Homburg Hospital Kokomo Indiana US
214 06/01/03 Lambert, Jonathan W. Sergeant 28 U.S. Marine Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Newsite Missouri US
168 04/24/03 Jenkins, Troy David Sergeant 25 U.S. Army B Co., 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Ridgecrest California US

Died in Kuwait:

1803 05/14/05 Gillican III, Charles C. Sergeant 35 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 118th Field Artillery Reg., 48th Infantry Brig. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Camp Arifjan Brunswick Georgia US
1739 04/18/05 Thornton, Steven W. Major 46 U.S. Army Communications-Electronics Command Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Eugene Oregon US
1693 03/15/05 Marracino, Salvatore Domenico Sergeant 28 Italian Army 185th Parachute Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Kuwait City (hospital) Apulia Italy IT
1536 01/23/05 Rangel, Jose C. Staff Sergeant 43 U.S. Army National Guard 1106th Aviation Classification Repair Activity Depot Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Fresno California US
1534 01/21/05 Lusk II, Joe Fenton Captain 25 U.S. Army 3rd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Non-hostile - unspecified injury Camp Buehring Reedley California US
1456 12/19/04 Farmer, Donald B. Staff Sergeant 33 U.S. Army 180th Transportation Battalion, 13th COSCOM Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ash Shuaybah Zion Illinois US
1455 12/19/04 Meza, Barry K. Sergeant 23 U.S. Army 180th Transportation Battalion, 13th COSCOM Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ash Shuaybah League City Texas US
1249 10/24/04 Boles, Dennis J. Sergeant 46 U.S. Army National Guard 171st Aviation Battalion Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Homosassa Florida US
697 03/27/04 Toney, Timothy Master Sergeant 37 U.S. Marine Headquarters Bat., 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Wolverine Manhattan New York US
674 03/16/04 Thigpen Sr., Thomas R. Master Sergeant 52 U.S. Army National Guard 151st Signal Battalion Non-hostile - unspecified cause Camp Virginia Augusta Georgia US
672 03/14/04 Normandy, William J. Sergeant 42 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 86th Field Artillery Regiment Non-hostile - illness - heart attack Camp Virginia East Barre Vermont US
658 03/08/04 Milczark, Matthew G. Private 1st Class 18 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 4th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Victory Kettle River Minnesota US
656 03/05/04 Gray, Michael J. Petty Officer 2nd Class 32 U.S. Navy Navy Detachment Non-hostile - vehicle accident Kuwait Naval Base (near) Richmond Virginia US
535 12/02/03 Boone, Clarence E. Chief Warrant Officer 50 U.S. Army Hqtrs. & Hqtrs. Co., 4th Infantry Division Non-hostile - accident (?) Kuwait City Fort Worth Texas US
486 11/15/03 Petrucci, Pietro Caporale 22 Italian Army Regular Army Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Al Sabah Hospital Casavatore, Napoli Italy IT
465 11/12/03 Bailey, Nathan J. Staff Sergeant 46 U.S. Army National Guard 1175th Transportation Company Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Arifjan Nashville Tennessee US
369 09/25/03 Rooney, Robert E. Sergeant 1st Class 43 U.S. Army National Guard 379th Engineer Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Shuabai Port Nashua New Hampshire US
342 09/01/03 Sarno, Cameron B. Staff Sergeant 43 U.S. Army Reserve 257th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Kuwait City Waipahu Hawaii US
339 08/27/03 Sherman, Anthony L. Lieutenant Colonel 43 U.S. Army Reserve 304th Civil Affairs Brigade Non-hostile - illness Camp Arifjan Pottstown Pennsylvania US
300 08/05/03 Loyd, David L. Staff Sergeant 44 U.S. Army National Guard 1175th Transportation Co., Tenn. ANG Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Not reported Jackson Tennessee US
262 07/09/03 Tetrault, Jason Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Moreno Valley California US
259 07/08/03 Boling, Craig A. Sergeant 1st Class 38 U.S. Army National Guard Co. C, 1-152nd Infantry, IN Nat. Guard Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Camp Wolf Elkhart Indiana US
246 06/26/03 Hubbell, Corey A. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Company B, 46th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - breathing difficulties Camden Yards Urbana Illinois US
229 06/17/03 Tosto, Michael L. Sergeant 24 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 35th Armrd Reg., 1st Arm. Div. Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Camp Wolf Apex North Carolina US
192 05/19/03 Shepherd, David Corporal 34 Royal Air Force Royal Air Force Police Non-hostile - natural causes Not reported Not reported Not reported UK
183 05/10/03 Smith, Matthew R. Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine Comm. Co., 4th Force Svc. Spt. Group Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Anderson Indiana US
179 05/09/03 Bruns, Cedric E. Lance Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 6th Engr. Spt. Bat., 4th Force Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Tac Assy Area Coyote Vancouver Washington US
175 05/04/03 Deibler, Jason L. Private 20 U.S. Army 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp New Jersey Coeburn Virginia US
95 04/01/03 Maglione III, Joseph Basil Lance Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 6th Eng'g Spt., 4th Force Serv. Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Coyote Lansdale Pennsylvania US
85 03/30/03 Brierley, Shaun Andrew Lance Corporal 28 British Army 212 Signal Squad., 1 (UK) Armoured Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported W. Yorkshire England UK
66 03/25/03 Stone, Gregory Lewis Major 40 U.S. Air National Guard 124th Air Spt. Oper. Squadron - Idaho Non-hostile - homicide Camp Pennsylvania Boise Idaho US
27 03/23/03 Seifert, Christopher Scott Captain 27 U.S. Army 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Div. Non-hostile - homicide Camp Pennsylvania Easton Pennsylvania US
13 03/21/03 Ward, Jason Major 34 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
12 03/21/03 Stratford, Mark Warrant Off. 2nd Class 39 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
11 03/21/03 Seymour, Ian Oper. Mech. 2nd Class 28 British Army 148 Commando Battery, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
10 03/21/03 Hehir, Les Sergeant 34 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
9 03/21/03 Hedenskog, Sholto Royal Navy Marine 26 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Pretoria South Africa UK
8 03/21/03 Guy, Philip Stuart Captain 29 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) N. Yorkshire England UK
7 03/21/03 Evans, Llywelyn Karl Lance Bombardier 24 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Llandudno Wales UK
6 03/21/03 Cecil, John Colour Sergeant 36 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
5 03/21/03 Waters-Bey, Kendall Damon Staff Sergeant 29 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Baltimore Maryland US
4 03/21/03 Kennedy, Brian Matthew Corporal 25 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Houston Texas US
3 03/21/03 Beaupre, Ryan Anthony Captain 30 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Bloomington Illinois US
2 03/21/03 Aubin, Jay Thomas Major 36 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Waterville Maine US

Died in Qatar:

1839 05/28/05 Smart, Albert E. Lieutenant Colonel 41 U.S. Army Reserve 321st Civil Affairs Brigade Non-hostile - illness Doha San Antonio Texas US
1134 09/06/04 Boria, John J. Captain 29 U.S. Air Force 911th Air Refueling Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Doha Broken Arrow Oklahoma US
640 02/10/04 Mariano, Jude C. Master Sergeant 39 U.S. Air Force 615th Air Mobility Operations Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Doha Vallejo California US
346 09/04/03 Brown, Bruce E. Technical Sergeant 32 U.S. Air Force 78th Logistics Readiness Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Udeid (near) Coatopa Alabama US
280 07/20/03 Scott, David A. Master Sergeant 51 U.S. Air Force 445th Communications Flight Non-hostile - unspecified cause Doha Union Ohio US
129 04/05/03 Smith, Edward 1st Sergeant 38 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Doha Chicago Illinois US

[Geoff R. Casavant]

6. If I am reading your list correctly . . .

it looks like the "official" death toll of about 1750 is incorrect, but the 9000 estimate I spoke of is way too high. I assume that the number preceding each name represents the numerical order in which the person named was killed. (If this is not the case, then please accept my best Emily Latella "never mind" and move on to the next post.) The highest number in the list you provided is 1856, and there are 107 people in your list by my count.

Ordinarily, I would note that 1856 less 107 is 1749, which is close to the 1750 I used as an estimate above. However, #1856 is dated 3 June, and there have been numerous deaths since then (I think the "official" count on 3 June was about 1700 or so, but I can't be sure right now). So it looks like the "official" count underreports the actual count by about 150 or thereabouts.

Does my analysis sound right?

[LynnTheDem]

7. No; the list I posted are all included in the 1742.

Notice some of the troops listed in my post are not US soldiers, but "coalition" troops.

The total number of all troops (non-Iraqi) killed in Iraq is currently 1930; 89 UK, 99 other "coalition" troops, and 1742 US.

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

[maynard]

15. Death Toll could be a lot higher

In Vietnam, they did not have body armor. When someone was hit, they died. In Iraq, when someone is hit, they just loose a limb or two. At least that is true for those who actually have body armor. Our death toll could be higher. That doesn't excuse anything. You would think that Rummy would be doing his best to get everyone protected. Maiming does not fit into the death toll.

[EFerrari]

5. Welcome to DU, Geoff.

:hi:

[Fla4kerry]

9. Go on Randi's web site

and there is a link under do your homework. It tells everything you are asking about.. Interesting investigation coming out soon.

Turning Fla blue 2006!! :patriot:

[Just Me]

10. I tried to link her earlier,...

,...right after she made the assertion, actually. I could NOT get on it. But, I am going there now!!!! :hi:

I have just HAD IT WITH THE GODDAMN LIES!!!! :grr:

[LynnTheDem]

14. So am I; wish Randi would stop spreadign them.

THAT's gonna get me flamed, lol!

US troop deaths are not being hidden. Not in Iraq, and not in Afghanistan.

[shance]

16. Lynn, you don't have any idea if they are being hidden any more than I do.

The sources you are taking your numbers from could be invalid as well.

I'm hope at the least we all agree to disagree, AND it would be nice for everyone to not claim to know one way or the other.

[LynnTheDem]

18. As I've been spending 8+hours a day 7 days a week every week for the

past 2 years researching soldiers' deaths in Iraq, as I've been a member of the US military and live on US military bases for over a decade, I beg to differ with you; I most certainly do have a better idea than anyone who hasn't been spending 8+ hours a day, 7 days a week, for the past 2 years.

So unless you also spend 8+ hours/day, 7 days /week the past 2 years, staring at newsfeeds of 20,500 articles/blogs/websites worldwide every 15 minutes, then I say I do happen to have a better idea than you.

The US is not deliberately hiding soldiers' deaths. That is my experienced opinion and it's an opinion I seek to destroy every day by spending 8+ hours/day 7 days/week for the past 2 years. No luck yet.

You are of course free to believe whatever rumors to the contrary; on that we can agree. :)

[shance]

22. I apologize for the tone Lynn. I admire your passion, concern

and tenacity on what Im sure is a challenging project you have taken upon yourself.

I will be all too grateful to know that is one area that perhaps has been lucky enough to escape the corrupt practices taking place in so many sacred arenas these days.

There's no question I have become overly quick on the draw due to the constant barrage of assaults coming from every angle by this Administration.

I do so hope you are right.

peace amiga***

[LynnTheDem]

25. Thanks, Shance.

I truly appreciate it.

I feel like I'm taking crap from all sides; I go to funerals of fallen soldier-friends and know about the devastated lives; and I'm just so bloody tired of people blithely assuming most US troops would willingly lie & cover up the deaths of fellow soldiers.

And meaning to or not, every time someone says, without a shred of any evidence whatsoever, that the US is hiding "thosuands" of troops' deaths, they denigrate and downplay and take the spotlight away from the actual number of soldiers who really have DIED for a steaming pile of total utter BUSHIT.

"Gee, 1750's not so bad, actually it's 9000!" That IS the implication, whether people mean to imply that or not. And when it's debunked people will say "Gee 1750's not bad, I'd thought it was 9000!".

I get crap from people for searching for US & other soldiers' deaths.

I get crap for not finding enough, I get crap for finding too many.

Pat and Michael at the ICCC get the same shit from all sides; too many not enough how dare you track US deaths you traitors how dare you not add "9000" you traitors...

All I can say, Shance, is we're actively hunting for ALL soldiers' deaths. It's all I've dreamt about for the past 2 years; names of the dead, images of the dead, images and words of the devastated loved ones, funerals and funerals and funerals.

:hug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Nonsense

We can use our reasoning powers and common sense to determine - to a high level of probability - that the current death count of 1742 is entirely accurate. Can it be determined to a certainty? No, few things outside of theoretical mathematics ever can be. But the "opinion" that the count is accurate is much more probable than the opinion that the government is hiding numerous troop deaths. Why?

In order to believe that the count is accurate you'd only have to believe that there are enough eyes on the question to prevent any cover-up of even five additional deaths. That's not hard to believe. You don't have to believe the government to believe that the casualty figures are accurate. You only have to believe that it would be extremely difficult for the government to fudge these numbers successfully, and it would be.

Now let's review what you'd have to believe in order to believe the opposite:

1) NOT ONE person connected to these additional deaths has come forward to seek recognition for their loved one. ZERO. NONE. NOT ONE. When you think (a foreign concept to some, I know) how many people would be thus connected to even ONE additional death, you see that this 100% success rate in "hushing up" people who would otherwise have a driving interest in having a relative, friend, student, comrade, etc. recognized in the official toll is completely implausible. It is a silly belief to hold, but you'd have to hold it in order to believe that deaths were being covered up.

2) So, do some hold that belief? Yes, some do. And the new way they've justified it (i.e., tried to make it appear less silly) is by claiming that the extra casualties are all non-citizen personnel - so-called "green card military." How, they ask, can Mexican and Central American parents be expected to contact the US media or otherwise be aware of the the current lists? Aside from the obnoxious racist presumption of such an argument (which asks you to believe that Mexican and Central Americans are somehow less in tune with their kids, siblings, friends, etc., and less capable of publicizing their issues, Zapatistas notwithstanding!), it also calls on you to believe that ALL the extra deaths fall into this category.

If the number of extra deaths is small (say, less than 200), you'd still have to be surprised by the 100% success rate in the cover-up, and you'd also have to wonder why the government would bother (and risk so much with so many contingencies out of its control!) to hide these deaths. If the number is assumed to be big, you'd still have the problems of the 100% success rate in cover-up (compounded), plus a number of other problems. Some have suggested 4,000 extra casualties, which would give the insurgents an more than 2 to 1 rate at hitting these green-card personnel! Do they have Mexican-Seeking I.E.D.'s, cuz that's a miraculously LUCKY rate....LUCKY for the US government, that is, intent on covering up green-card casualties. Well, miraculous, or, as people with a shred of common sense say, utterly implausible. Never mind that there are only 45,000 non-citizen personnel in the entire US military (all branches) - if you're gullible or intent enough on believing 1) and 2) I suppose you'd also think that the government is lying about that figure. Never mind that the government would have to rely on the total and perpetual silence of even the comrades-in-arms of these non-citizen personnel (combat veterans being somehow now notorious for covering up the deaths of their comrades in arms and letting them be buried in secret without the honor of a mention!) - if you're gullible or intent enough on believing 1) and 2), i suppose you'd also believe that we have non-citizen only units that rove around Iraq taking massive casualties without any other military unit noticing!

These beliefs are not equal. they are not of the same status simply because neither can be "known" to a mathematical certainty. The first belief is supported by specific evidence, painstakingly collected by people like LynnDem and the good people at www.icasualties.org, who are not connected with the government and actually work as watchdogs on the government. It requires us only to believe that the government couldn't possibly accomplish a cover-up on this level because the scrutiny is too severe and the conditions for success too tenuous. It requires us only to believe, in other words, that a 100% success rate is implausible for covering up such information.

The second belief is supported by no evidence whatsoever, and requires us to accept a number of "facts" that are contrary to all experience and common sense.

These beliefs are not equal in their uncertainty, but remarkably disparate in their probability. The first is probable and reasonable.The second is incredibly improbable and therefore utterly irrational.

[Kraklen]

17. It'd be about 20,000.

1,742 or so deaths. Ten times that wounded. Give or take.

More to follow.