Pentagon Lies About US Military Deaths in Iraq

[DainBramaged]

http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/randirhodes/messageboards/index.php?act=ST&f=131&t=56646


I heard Randi talking about this on the way home, and here it is on her website:


<snip>
Out of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 either deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. US military personnel who died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals have not previously been counted. They total about 6,210 as of 1 January, 2005. The ongoing, underreporting of the dead in Iraq, is not accurate. The DoD is deliberately reducing the figures.

A review of many foreign news sites show that actual deaths are far higher than the newly reduced ones. Iraqi civilian casualties are never reported but International Red Cross, Red Crescent and UN figures indicate that as of 1 January 2005, the numbers are just under 100,000.

There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. <snip>


I hope to God this gets out in the MSM real quick. It all makes sense now. No photos of the dead returning to Delaware because the numbers wouldn't jive. They're ONLY counting deaths on the ground, not due to injuries.


Bastards.


(I can't donate so I couldn't search to find if this has been posted, I looked but didn't see a duplicate)

[merh]

1. Be ready for folks to tell you that you are wrong.

Personally, I don't doubt it. This administration lies about everything. :argh:

[FreedomAngel82]

8. Same here

I'm not sure myself but nothing would surprise me with these people. Heck, they've lied about everything else so why not this? This way, if they are lying, it would show they're "winning" and have the "insergents" "on the run" etc. If this is true I'm guessing they are listed just not in the "official" released count for whatever reason.

[rzemanfl]

2. I find it hard to believe that 6,000 plus next of kin would be quiet

about this, or that that many funerals could be conducted on the sly.

[DainBramaged]

7. Conducted all over the country at different times

Not implausable at all. What other source do we have to depend on? The Shell Answer Man?

[walldude]

26. I haven't seen ONE funeral, so it seems to me that it's

totally plausable. I'm sure the family's who have lost someone are not too worried about what number their family member was, this seems totally plausable to me and I have thought this was the case for awhile now.

[anotherdrew]

3. also what about non-us citizens in the army?

suposedly I've heard 3% in all the military are non-US citizens, now I doubt many of them are in non-combat MOSs and most likely are all in the Army. So anyone have a number for total US military and for total combat MOS soldiers in the army... 'cause I bet 3% turns into more like 6-12% of the light infantry guys over there are non-US. I wonder how many of them get 'lost in the paperwork'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. not Breaking News

This is sourced from a message board; which is source from tbrnews.com, which is a neonazi site and completely unreliable. There are people who post here on DU who work for icasualties.org, and their considered opinion is that the neonazis are full of shit.

[DainBramaged]

6. Whatever

If Randi believes it, and I believe it, are we full of shit too?

I was thinking of a couple of words, and Merry Christmas wern't those words.:grr:

[LynnTheDem]

15. Well since you asked...

;)

Look, the FACT is, and I can PROVE it, troops who die on the way to hospitals ARE in fact counted. Randi says NONE of them are.

She is wrong. It's that simple. And it's easily proven.

[meganmonkey]

5. ...

:popcorn:

[DainBramaged]

9. Ask yourselves one question

Is their a list of wounded available from the Pentagon?

[kittenpants]

13. A DU member works full-time helping to maintain this list

www.icasualties.org

it includes soldiers who died outside of Iraq if you look at casualty details

[Endangered Specie]

10. I wouldnt doubt that the military tries to under play...

its casulty figures, but I doubt by that much (probably around 10-20%).

However, I bet good money they grossly over count the number of 'insurgents dead'
probably a formula like:
1 civilian body, not sure if insurgent = 1 insurgent.
1 actual insurgent body = 5 more dead.

After all, they inflated the numbers of Viet Cong dead in Vietnam.

[EFerrari]

11. Somebody go grab Lynn and direct her to another thread!

:hide:

[wakeme2008]

12. Sounds Lynn should be directed to Randy :) nt

[LynnTheDem]

18. Oh gawd nooooo!!!

:P :P :P

TBR must be laughing their frigging arses off, I tell ya.

[merh]

28. Chicken!

:rofl:

[LynnTheDem]

30. buck buck buck

Talk about RUDE PERSON! You ever hear how Randi treats anyone, left, right or inbetween who dares disagree with her??!

:scared:


BRUUUUCK! :P :D

PS I emailed her; no reply to date.

[merh]

31. High strung!

She is very high strung. :freak:

But, we do need to have a loud liberal making noise.
Glad you emailed her. :hi:

[EFerrari]

32. In all fairness, she should now have Lynn on the show

so she can have equal time. :)

[LynnTheDem]

33. Only if she promises not to yell at me.

Or get Pat to go on, Pat can yell back much louder than I can, I'm sure. Plus Pat's even more PO'd about this BS than I am. And she's the Big Cheezie of the ICCC, I'm just a little cheeziepuff.

Pat's reading this, so I know I'll be getting an email about being puffy. :rofl:

[merh]

36. I don't disagree with that.

Sounds like a good idea.

[LynnTheDem]

14. "US military personnel who died in German hospitals or en route to German

hospitals have not previously been counted."

Well that one's super-easy to debunk.

[LightningFlash]

16. Has there ever even been any reports at all of hospital deaths?

Since the media is censored it must be out somewhere....Who has the listings of hospital bed deaths for the whole war?

[kittenpants]

17. look at post #13

[LynnTheDem]

19. This is not current; it's from the last time this TBR crap was posted;

been a few additions since then;

Go to; http://www.icasualties.org/oif /

At the top, click on "Fatality Details"

On the details page, at the bottom far right, set filter to "country of death" and choose "USA".

At the bottom far left, click on "set filter".

Died in the USA from Iraq;

1856 06/03/05 Mendoza, Antonio Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 5th Bat., 11th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - explosion Brooke Army Med Center, TX Santa Ana California US
1830 05/24/05 Collins, Randy D. Sergeant 1st Class 36 U.S. Army 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Long Beach California US
1797 05/11/05 Schmidt III, John T. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 8th Marines, 2nd Marine Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - explosion Brooke Army Med Center, TX Brookfield Connecticut US
1790 05/10/05 Bordelon, Michael J. 1st Sergeant 37 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 24th Infantry Reg., 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Morgan City Louisiana US
1768 05/02/05 Little, Tommy S. Staff Sergeant 47 U.S. Army National Guard 2nd Battalion, 114th Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Aliceville Alabama US
1726 04/12/05 Dickens, Tyler J. Corporal 20 U.S. Army 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack (?) Brooke Army Med Center, TX Columbus Georgia US
1677 03/03/05 Jones, Michael D. Sergeant 1st Class 43 U.S. Army National Guard 133rd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness Syracuse, NY Unity Maine US
1494 01/04/05 Washington, Bennie J. Sergeant 25 U.S. Army 44th Engineer Battalion, 2nd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Atlanta Georgia US
1483 12/29/04 Nelson, Craig L. Specialist 21 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 156th Armor Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Bossier City Louisiana US
1393 11/27/04 Smith, Michael A. Sergeant 24 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Bat., 153rd Infantry, 39th Brig. Cmbt. Tm., 1st Cav. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Camden Arkansas US
1382 11/24/04 Nolte, Nicholas S. Sergeant 25 U.S. Marine 2nd Low Alt. Air Defense Bat., 2nd Mar. Aircraft Wing, IIMEF Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Falls City Nebraska US
1381 11/23/04 Edinger, Benjamin C. Sergeant 24 U.S. Marine 2nd Force Reconnaissance Co., II Marine Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Green Bay Wisconsin US
1370 11/19/04 Downey, Michael A. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 1st Bat., 3rd Marines, 3rd Marine Div., III Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Phoenix Arizona US
1280 11/07/04 McVey, Otie Joseph Sergeant 1st Class 53 U.S. Army Reserve 706th Transportation Company Non-hostile - illness Beaver, WV Oak Hill West Virginia US
1246 10/22/04 Gadsden, Jonathan E. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 1st Combat Engr. Bat., 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Vet's Hospital, Tampa, FL Charleston South Carolina US
1205 10/03/04 Pettaway Jr., James L. Staff Sergeant 37 U.S. Army Reserve 223rd Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Brooke Army Med Center, TX Baltimore Maryland US
1200 09/30/04 Nolan, Allen Specialist 38 U.S. Army Reserve 660th Transp. Co., 88th Regional Readiness Command Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Marietta Ohio US
1172 09/19/04 Adams, Brandon E. Sergeant 22 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 32nd Inf. Reg., 10th Mountain Div. Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Hollidaysburg Pennsylvania US
1061 08/09/04 Houghton, Andrew R. Captain 25 U.S. Army 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Houston Texas US
1028 07/21/04 Engel, Mark E. Lance Corporal 21 U.S. Marine 2nd Lt. Armd Recon Bat., 2nd Mar. Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Brooke Army Med Center, TX Grand Junction Colorado US
1017 07/15/04 Mardis Jr., Paul C. Staff Sergeant 25 U.S. Army 3rd Bat., 5th Special Forces Group Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Palmetto Florida US
987 07/02/04 Martin, Stephen G. Staff Sergeant 39 U.S. Army Reserve 330th Military Police Detachment Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Warsaw/Rhinelander Wisconsin US
811 04/22/04 Dunham, Jason L. Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 7th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD Scio (Allegany Co.) New York US
687 03/20/04 Vega, Michael W. 1st Lieutenant 41 U.S. Army National Guard 223rd Military Intelligence Co., 223rd Mil. Intel. Battalion Hostile - vehicle accident Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Lathrop California US
587 01/05/04 Frist, Luke P. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Reserve 209th Quartermaster Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Brooke Army Med Center, TX Brookston Indiana US
534 12/02/03 Young, Ryan C. Sergeant 21 U.S. Army A Co., 1st Bat., 16th Infantry Reg., 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Corona California US
511 11/20/03 Tyrrell, Scott Matthew Private 21 U.S. Army C Co., 299th Engineer Bat., 4th Infantry Div. Non-hostile - munitions accident Brooke Army Med Center, TX Sterling Illinois US
459 11/08/03 Jimenez, Linda C. Sergeant 39 U.S. Army 2nd Sqd. Combat Spt. Aviation, 2nd Armored Cav. Reg. Non-hostile - accidental fall Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Brooklyn New York US
378 10/01/03 Ramos, Tamarra J. Specialist 24 U.S. Army 3rd Armor Med. Co., Medical Spt. Squadron, 3rd Armd Cav. Non-hostile - unspecified injury Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Quakertown Pennsylvania US
356 09/16/03 Pinkston, Foster Sergeant 47 U.S. Army National Guard 878th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness Augusta, GA Warrenton Georgia US
347 09/07/03 Thompson, Jarrett B. Specialist 27 U.S. Army Reserve 946th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Dover Delaware US
254 07/04/03 Coons, James Curtis Master Sergeant 35 U.S. Army 385th Signal Company, 54th Signal Battalion Non-hostile - suicide Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Conroe Texas US
231 06/18/03 Latham, William T. Staff Sergeant 29 U.S. Army Troop E, 2nd Squad., 3rd Armored Cav. Hostile - hostile fire Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Kingman Arizona US

Died in Germany from Iraq;

1816 05/22/05 Seesan, Aaron N. 1st Lieutenant 25 U.S. Army 73rd Engineer Company, 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Massillon Ohio US
1725 04/09/05 LaWare, Casey M. Private 1st Class 19 U.S. Army 2nd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment Non-hostile - building fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Redding California US
1678 03/04/05 Garceau, Seth K. Sergeant 27 U.S. Army National Guard 224th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Oelwein Iowa US
1434 12/09/04 Renehan, Kyle J. Corporal 21 U.S. Marine Marine Air Ctrl. Sq-2, Mar. Air Ctrl. Gp-28, 2nd Mar. Air Wing Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Kaiserslautern Oxford Pennsylvania US
1410 12/01/04 Pena, Javier Obleas-Prado Gunnery Sergeant 36 U.S. Marine 2nd Recon Battalion, 2nd Marine Div., II Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Falls Church Virginia US
1378 11/20/04 Heredia, Joseph J. Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Santa Maria California US
1376 11/20/04 Welke, Joseph T. Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine 3rd Bat., 1st Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Rapid City South Dakota US
1231 10/13/04 Baker, Ronald W. Specialist 34 U.S. Army National Guard 39th Support Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Cabot Arkansas US
1194 09/28/04 Prewitt, Tyler D. Sergeant 22 U.S. Army 2nd Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Phoenix Arizona US
1053 08/05/04 McCune, Donald R. Specialist 20 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Bat., 161st Infantry Reg., 81st Brigade Combat Team Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Ypsilanti Michigan US
933 06/03/04 Bolding, Todd J. Lance Corporal 23 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 4th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Hostile - hostile fire Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Manvel Texas US
901 05/18/04 Chaney, William D. Staff Sergeant 59 U.S. Army National Guard B Company, 1st Battalion, 106th Aviation Regiment Non-hostile - illness Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Schaumburg Illinois US
876 05/08/04 Holmes, James J. Specialist 28 U.S. Army National Guard C Company, 141st Engineer Combat Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. East Grand Forks Minnesota US
809 04/20/04 Fox, Bradley C. 1st Sergeant 34 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 36th Inf. Reg., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Adrian Michigan US
682 03/19/04 Matthews, Clint Richard "Bones" Specialist 31 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 18th Infantry Reg., 1st Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Bedford Pennsylvania US
679 03/18/04 Sutphin, Ernest Harold Private 1st Class 21 U.S. Army 2nd Bat., 11th Field Artillery, 25th Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Parkersburg West Virginia US
447 11/06/03 Fisher, Paul F. Sergeant 39 U.S. Army National Guard Det. 1, Co. F,106th Aviation Battalion Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Homburg Hospital Cedar Rapids Iowa US
320 08/17/03 Ivory, Craig S. Specialist 26 U.S. Army 501st Forward Spt. Co., 173rd Airborne Non-hostile - illness - heat related Homberg Univ. Hospital Port Matilda Pennsylvania US
319 08/14/03 Kirchhoff, David M. Private 1st Class 31 U.S. Army National Guard 2133rd Transportation Company Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Anamosa Iowa US
303 08/06/03 Colunga, Zeferino E. Specialist 20 U.S. Army 4th Squadron, 2nd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - illness - acute leukemia Homburg Hospital Bellville Texas US
266 07/12/03 Neusche, Joshua M. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Reserve 203rd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Homburg Hospital Montreal Missouri US
260 07/08/03 McKinley, Robert L. Private 23 U.S. Army H & H Company, 1-101st Air Assault Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Homburg Hospital Kokomo Indiana US
214 06/01/03 Lambert, Jonathan W. Sergeant 28 U.S. Marine Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Newsite Missouri US
168 04/24/03 Jenkins, Troy David Sergeant 25 U.S. Army B Co., 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Ridgecrest California US

Died in Kuwait:

1803 05/14/05 Gillican III, Charles C. Sergeant 35 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 118th Field Artillery Reg., 48th Infantry Brig. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Camp Arifjan Brunswick Georgia US
1739 04/18/05 Thornton, Steven W. Major 46 U.S. Army Communications-Electronics Command Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Eugene Oregon US
1693 03/15/05 Marracino, Salvatore Domenico Sergeant 28 Italian Army 185th Parachute Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Kuwait City (hospital) Apulia Italy IT
1536 01/23/05 Rangel, Jose C. Staff Sergeant 43 U.S. Army National Guard 1106th Aviation Classification Repair Activity Depot Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Fresno California US
1534 01/21/05 Lusk II, Joe Fenton Captain 25 U.S. Army 3rd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Non-hostile - unspecified injury Camp Buehring Reedley California US
1456 12/19/04 Farmer, Donald B. Staff Sergeant 33 U.S. Army 180th Transportation Battalion, 13th COSCOM Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ash Shuaybah Zion Illinois US
1455 12/19/04 Meza, Barry K. Sergeant 23 U.S. Army 180th Transportation Battalion, 13th COSCOM Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ash Shuaybah League City Texas US
1249 10/24/04 Boles, Dennis J. Sergeant 46 U.S. Army National Guard 171st Aviation Battalion Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Arifjan Homosassa Florida US
697 03/27/04 Toney, Timothy Master Sergeant 37 U.S. Marine Headquarters Bat., 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Camp Wolverine Manhattan New York US
674 03/16/04 Thigpen Sr., Thomas R. Master Sergeant 52 U.S. Army National Guard 151st Signal Battalion Non-hostile - unspecified cause Camp Virginia Augusta Georgia US
672 03/14/04 Normandy, William J. Sergeant 42 U.S. Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 86th Field Artillery Regiment Non-hostile - illness - heart attack Camp Virginia East Barre Vermont US
658 03/08/04 Milczark, Matthew G. Private 1st Class 18 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 4th Marines, 1st Marine Div., I Mar. Exped. Force Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Victory Kettle River Minnesota US
656 03/05/04 Gray, Michael J. Petty Officer 2nd Class 32 U.S. Navy Navy Detachment Non-hostile - vehicle accident Kuwait Naval Base (near) Richmond Virginia US
535 12/02/03 Boone, Clarence E. Chief Warrant Officer 50 U.S. Army Hqtrs. & Hqtrs. Co., 4th Infantry Division Non-hostile - accident (?) Kuwait City Fort Worth Texas US
486 11/15/03 Petrucci, Pietro Caporale 22 Italian Army Regular Army Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Al Sabah Hospital Casavatore, Napoli Italy IT
465 11/12/03 Bailey, Nathan J. Staff Sergeant 46 U.S. Army National Guard 1175th Transportation Company Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Arifjan Nashville Tennessee US
369 09/25/03 Rooney, Robert E. Sergeant 1st Class 43 U.S. Army National Guard 379th Engineer Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Shuabai Port Nashua New Hampshire US
342 09/01/03 Sarno, Cameron B. Staff Sergeant 43 U.S. Army Reserve 257th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Kuwait City Waipahu Hawaii US
339 08/27/03 Sherman, Anthony L. Lieutenant Colonel 43 U.S. Army Reserve 304th Civil Affairs Brigade Non-hostile - illness Camp Arifjan Pottstown Pennsylvania US
300 08/05/03 Loyd, David L. Staff Sergeant 44 U.S. Army National Guard 1175th Transportation Co., Tenn. ANG Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Not reported Jackson Tennessee US
262 07/09/03 Tetrault, Jason Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Moreno Valley California US
259 07/08/03 Boling, Craig A. Sergeant 1st Class 38 U.S. Army National Guard Co. C, 1-152nd Infantry, IN Nat. Guard Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Camp Wolf Elkhart Indiana US
246 06/26/03 Hubbell, Corey A. Specialist 20 U.S. Army Company B, 46th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - breathing difficulties Camden Yards Urbana Illinois US
229 06/17/03 Tosto, Michael L. Sergeant 24 U.S. Army 1st Bat., 35th Armrd Reg., 1st Arm. Div. Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Camp Wolf Apex North Carolina US
192 05/19/03 Shepherd, David Corporal 34 Royal Air Force Royal Air Force Police Non-hostile - natural causes Not reported Not reported Not reported UK
183 05/10/03 Smith, Matthew R. Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine Comm. Co., 4th Force Svc. Spt. Group Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Anderson Indiana US
179 05/09/03 Bruns, Cedric E. Lance Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 6th Engr. Spt. Bat., 4th Force Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Tac Assy Area Coyote Vancouver Washington US
175 05/04/03 Deibler, Jason L. Private 20 U.S. Army 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp New Jersey Coeburn Virginia US
95 04/01/03 Maglione III, Joseph Basil Lance Corporal 22 U.S. Marine 6th Eng'g Spt., 4th Force Serv. Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Coyote Lansdale Pennsylvania US
85 03/30/03 Brierley, Shaun Andrew Lance Corporal 28 British Army 212 Signal Squad., 1 (UK) Armoured Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported W. Yorkshire England UK
66 03/25/03 Stone, Gregory Lewis Major 40 U.S. Air National Guard 124th Air Spt. Oper. Squadron - Idaho Non-hostile - homicide Camp Pennsylvania Boise Idaho US
27 03/23/03 Seifert, Christopher Scott Captain 27 U.S. Army 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Div. Non-hostile - homicide Camp Pennsylvania Easton Pennsylvania US
13 03/21/03 Ward, Jason Major 34 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
12 03/21/03 Stratford, Mark Warrant Off. 2nd Class 39 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
11 03/21/03 Seymour, Ian Oper. Mech. 2nd Class 28 British Army 148 Commando Battery, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
10 03/21/03 Hehir, Les Sergeant 34 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
9 03/21/03 Hedenskog, Sholto Royal Navy Marine 26 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Pretoria South Africa UK
8 03/21/03 Guy, Philip Stuart Captain 29 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) N. Yorkshire England UK
7 03/21/03 Evans, Llywelyn Karl Lance Bombardier 24 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Llandudno Wales UK
6 03/21/03 Cecil, John Colour Sergeant 36 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
5 03/21/03 Waters-Bey, Kendall Damon Staff Sergeant 29 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Baltimore Maryland US
4 03/21/03 Kennedy, Brian Matthew Corporal 25 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Houston Texas US
3 03/21/03 Beaupre, Ryan Anthony Captain 30 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Bloomington Illinois US
2 03/21/03 Aubin, Jay Thomas Major 36 U.S. Marine MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Waterville Maine US

Died in Qatar:

1839 05/28/05 Smart, Albert E. Lieutenant Colonel 41 U.S. Army Reserve 321st Civil Affairs Brigade Non-hostile - illness Doha San Antonio Texas US
1134 09/06/04 Boria, John J. Captain 29 U.S. Air Force 911th Air Refueling Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Doha Broken Arrow Oklahoma US
640 02/10/04 Mariano, Jude C. Master Sergeant 39 U.S. Air Force 615th Air Mobility Operations Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Doha Vallejo California US
346 09/04/03 Brown, Bruce E. Technical Sergeant 32 U.S. Air Force 78th Logistics Readiness Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Udeid (near) Coatopa Alabama US
280 07/20/03 Scott, David A. Master Sergeant 51 U.S. Air Force 445th Communications Flight Non-hostile - unspecified cause Doha Union Ohio US
129 04/05/03 Smith, Edward 1st Sergeant 38 U.S. Marine 2nd Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Doha Chicago Illinois US

[LightningFlash]

20. That's interesting...

I see alot of names on that list, but how do we know that website is accurate? It seems to me there is quite a few under-reported deaths in Iraq that nobody seems to pay attention to. :shrug:

How do we know if there is no other source besides icasualties.org? Has anyone even done an investigation or ran autopsy findings through the american red cross?

[LynnTheDem]

21. There are plenty of other casualty sites; I only work for ICCC so I only

posted their list.

The Red Cross does not do US military autopsies.

And the US military only reports on US military deaths. Britain, for example, reports their own troops' deaths through their MoD.

[LightningFlash]

22. So where are they?

And why were the right-wingers going after the red cross? Seems to me there is more deaths than anyone's been led to believe, or old Norm Coleman wouldn't be so ticked off about it.

Where do we go to find out those other sources or the red cross's official listing?

[LynnTheDem]

23. The Red Cross is talking about IRAQI deaths. NOT US military deaths.

The US military ONLY reports their own US military deaths.

The Red Cross does not officially list Iraqi deaths. Or anyone else's deaths. If you want to know about the 100,000 IRAQI deaths, just google "100,000 Iraqi s killed".

If you're talking about US military deaths, I can get some links to other count sites for you;

UK troop deaths;
British Ministry of Defense’s website at http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/casualties.htm .

US troop deaths;

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html

Army Times
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-warkilled.php

Honor The Fallen (doesn't search for deaths, counts DOD/Centcom releases only, so they're a few deaths behind)
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html

And the US military now keeps a tally, after immense criticism for not doing so previously;

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

[LightningFlash]

27. Thanks for that info.

Seems its been under-reported by about 2% but its not nearly as severe as the civilian deaths. Is the red cross only allowed to report on civilian deaths of Iraqi based civilians?

[LynnTheDem]

29. The Red Cross doesn't make its reports public info, AFAIK.

Links re 100,000 Iraqi deaths;

John Hopkins;
http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/Press_Releases/PR_2004/Burnham_Iraq.html

BBC;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

GOP and their faithful rightwingnuts attacking the ICRC;

GOP Committee Targets International Red Cross

Senators ask Bush to reconsider financial support for the agency after its criticism of how U.S. forces treat their detainees abroad.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-redcross15jun15,1,4752320.story?coll=la-news-a_section

Red Cross Has 'Lost Its Way,' Study Says

WASHINGTON - A new study conducted for Republican senators alleges that the International Committee for the Red Cross has "lost its way" by abandoning its guiding principle of impartiality and is now working in "direct opposition to the advancement of U.S. interests."

http://www.nysun.com/article/15361

The usual republican MO; criticize bush & his rightwingnuttery and you'll be demonized and attacked.

[mmonk]

24. The problem lies in the fact

the government is not as accomodating on casualty figures as it used to be. Groups keeping up with the counts have to work harder at it. Given we no longer have a very open government and add the fact they lie profusely, suspicions will always be there, and people will exploit the mistrust. The fact that icasualties and others have to work so hard to verify the numbers actually may be a good thing in that the counts are probably more accurate than taking official numbers for granted.

[LynnTheDem]

25. That imo, is a damn good point.

And it's one I tell myself in the middle of the night when I'm digging thru those 20,500 articles every 15 minutes on my newsfeeds.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth the hard work when it's 4 in the bloody AM...seems too often either people don't care at all about the troops killed, or only care about rumors of "thousands" of hidden deaths, not one single shred of evidence to the rumor.

Sometimes I wanna tell Pat, just toss a few hundred "extras" onto ICCC and put "name not known at this time".

ARRRRRRRGH!!!

[Ilsa]

34. One funeral here, one about 90 miles from here, another about

50 miles from here two years ago.

I don't know what to think. I think it is possible they'd undercount; they lie about so many things.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. "I wouldn't be surprised" is NOT a positive argument for states of affairs

We can use our reasoning powers and common sense to determine - to a high level of probability - that the current death count of 1742 is entirely accurate. Can it be determined to a certainty? No, few things outside of theoretical mathematics ever can be. But the "opinion" that the count is accurate is much more probable than the opinion that the government is hiding numerous troop deaths. Why?

In order to believe that the count is accurate you'd only have to believe that there are enough eyes on the question to prevent any cover-up of any number of deaths - even five additional deaths. That's not hard to believe. You don't have to believe the government to believe that the casualty figures are accurate. You only have to believe that it would be extremely difficult for the government to fudge these numbers successfully, and it would be.

Now let's review what you'd have to believe in order to believe the opposite:

1) NOT ONE person connected to these additional deaths has come forward to seek recognition for their loved one. ZERO. NONE. NOT ONE. When you think (a foreign concept to some, I know) how many people would be thus connected to even ONE additional death, you see that this 100% success rate in "hushing up" people who would otherwise have a driving interest in having a relative, friend, student, comrade, etc. recognized in the official toll is completely implausible. It is a silly belief to hold, but you'd have to hold it in order to believe that deaths were being covered up.

2) So, do some hold that belief? Yes, some do. And the new way they've justified it (i.e., tried to make it appear less silly) is by claiming that the extra casualties are all non-citizen personnel - so-called "green card military." How, they ask, can Mexican and Central American parents be expected to contact the US media or otherwise be aware of the the current lists? Aside from the obnoxious racist presumption of such an argument (which asks you to believe that Mexican and Central Americans are somehow less in tune with their kids, siblings, friends, etc., and less capable of publicizing their issues, Zapatistas notwithstanding!), it also calls on you to believe that ALL the extra deaths fall into this category.

If the number of extra deaths is small (say, less than 200), you'd still have to be surprised by the 100% success rate in the cover-up, and you'd also have to wonder why the government would bother (and risk so much with so many contingencies out of its control!) to hide these deaths. If the number is assumed to be big, you'd still have the problems of the 100% success rate in cover-up (compounded), plus a number of other problems. Some have suggested 4,000 extra casualties, which would give the insurgents an more than 2 to 1 rate at hitting these green-card personnel! Do they have Mexican-Seeking I.E.D.'s, cuz that's a miraculously LUCKY rate....LUCKY for the US government, that is, intent on covering up green-card casualties. Well, miraculous, or, as people with a shred of common sense say, utterly implausible. Never mind that there are only 45,000 non-citizen personnel in the entire US military (all branches) - if you're gullible or intent enough on believing 1) and 2) I suppose you'd also think that the government is lying about that figure. Never mind that the government would have to rely on the total and perpetual silence of even the comrades-in-arms of these non-citizen personnel (combat veterans being somehow now notorious for covering up the deaths of their comrades in arms and letting them be buried in secret without the honor of a mention!) - if you're gullible or intent enough on believing 1) and 2), i suppose you'd also believe that we have non-citizen only units that rove around Iraq taking massive casualties without any other military unit noticing!

I should add a third argument that is often thrown out, despite its being a ridiculous non sequitor. It goes like this: Why else would they prohibit pictures being taken at Dover? It is never cashed out with any further descritpion, possibly because it is laughably incoherent, and further description would expose it as a sham argument. It is thus left bare, a simmering implication, but examined with any courage, even the implication is preposterous. Let's examine. Why would "they" prohibit the pictures at Dover? We're meant to believe that the only possible reason to do so would be to hide these extra dead bodies rolling through. But is that the only possible reason? Of course not. It is much more likely that even the daily sight of the acknowledged casualties would produce a negative PR effect in the American public. One need not suppose anything more sinister than that: even the 1742 is far too much for the American public to bear in the graphic sight of flag-draped coffins, and "they" damn well know it. So there is another possible reason for keeping Dover closed to cameras, and it doesn't involve "extra" coffins; the ones we know about are sufficient.

But let's look further into the other possibility, if only for its comic value. The implication is that there are hundreds - even thousands - of coffins coming through Dover that aren't acknowledged. So, the Pentagon goes out of its way to hide these casualties, but continues to drape them in flags and send them back on military planes, and bring them out at the standard body arrival site, and expose them to the troops there, who are assumed to remain silent in perpetuity? Could one imagine a more ridiculous scenario? This is some amazing cover-up that refuses to dispense with tradition, despite the threat that tradition poses to the success of the cover-up! If the pentagon is going to hide these casualties at all, why bother bringing them back through Dover? Why not just bury them in the desert (as one of the sites has suggested happens to the green-card personnel (see 2) above)? Are we to believe that the same schemers who have hushed up tens of thousands of family members and friends and dishonored thousands of dead continue to honor them with the standard transport through the standard channels? What fool would believe such a thing? Oh, but people will say, if they don't bring them back through Dover, then they couldn't send them out to their families officially! See 1) above for the intractable tangles this would get a believer into. The Dover argument is clownish on its face.

These beliefs are thus not equal. They are not of the same status simply because neither can be "known" to a mathematical certainty. The first belief - that the reported numbers are accurate - is supported by specific evidence, painstakingly collected by people like LynntheDem and the good people at www.icasualties.org , who are not connected with the government and actually work as watchdogs on the government. It requires us only to believe that the government couldn't possibly accomplish a cover-up on this level because the scrutiny is too severe and the conditions for success too tenuous. It requires us only to believe, in other words, that a 100% success rate is implausible for covering up such information.

The second belief is supported by no evidence whatsoever, and requires us to accept a number of "facts" that are contrary to all experience and common sense.

These beliefs are not equal in their uncertainty, but remarkably disparate in their probability. The first is probable and reasonable.The second is incredibly improbable and therefore utterly irrational. "I wouldn't be surprised" is not an argument. "I don't doubt it" - when lacking any evidence and any plausibility - is not a reasonable position, but the position of a dogmatist. Reasonable people doubt any claim that is not supported. Unreasonable people accept any claim they desire to accept, and when they can't support it, simply say that they don't doubt it.