On religious attacks..

[lildreamer316]

I certainly understand how tired people are on this board in regards to their Christian religion being attacked or demeaned. I am sorry that this is going on and sympathize with the feeling (see avatar;) ). It is no fun to have something that is a basic tenant of your life so lightly dismissed by others; and especially others whom you consider a support group in many ways.

Having said that, there is something that I would like to explain. You have no idea what it is like every day as a non-Christian. I swear it feels like this religion is being forced down my throat. I happen to like some country music; for example. Do I need to say more? It makes me feel like I cannot be part of that "community" because I am most certainly not "right with the man" in their view. Maybe you are thinking that I picked a bad example; but those are part of my roots as a southern woman. Everywhere I turn it seems that if I am not following this religion, overtly seen or just implied, something is wrong with me. I swear this is probably part of the reason I became an "exotic entertainer" in the first place; rebellion against the established mores of my parents and the country. You really cannot understand how this is a daily endured thing. Most days I can just deal with it and go about my business, but have you who are complaining ever looked at it from the other side of the fence? Really tried? C'mon. Then, the one place we go for some refuge from political repression & to express our (mostly) liberal views and peaceful life goals becomes yet another battleground for us to stand on equal footing with the dominant religion. You may infer from that last that I perceive my beliefs to not be held equal here; that is not really true; but is how, in general, the sentiment seems to come across. We who believe differently, or not at all, have inside the rising anger of the dispossessed and downtrodden. I hesitate to compare it to the civil rights movement, but it is certainly in the same vein. We suffer abuse, some of us, every day because of who we are. Recently a judge in Washington state took kids away from a couple (married) because they believe as I do. This is possibly something that could happen to me; I am a wiccan exotic entertainer mother of one. What if my southern Baptist neighbors find out what my religion is? What if they report me to Social Services? I have to hide my altar or disguise it; I do not usually wear my symbolic jewelry. You may say I am paranoid and a coward; I live in fear of losing my son who is my life. This is why I have such resentment about this religion being forced into my daily life; EVERY day. I know many Christians live by the true word of Christ and would be loving and accepting of me and mine. Are you telling me these are the kinds of Christians in power? On TV? I don't think so. Please try to understand--really put yourself in my shoes (you can skip the five inch heels!). It is a real and scary truth in many of your friend's and neighbor's lives; in this harsh political and religious climate, we may very well be the "....and then they came for the_______"; probably not too far down on the list. There are more of us than you realize; but part of our religion is to "keep silent". Therefore we do not go about raising a huge stink about this issue on a regular basis. That does not mean it should not be addressed.

I will say that I do not try to attack, condemn, or otherwise belittle the Christian religion here or otherwise usually. You will not see that from me.I am, again, genuinely sad to see that many of you here feel that others are doing so; and hope that I can be part of the solution instead of the problem I personally believe that the religion has been perverted horribly from it's original form and intention and is a product of patriarchy; however that does not mean it is not a source of great solace and inspiration to many, many people. Every belief system has it's good and bad points. Just wanted to give you a glimpse from across the divide. My glass house is warm today & I don't have a very good throwing arm. Blessed be.

Never again the burning times.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I hear ya. I am a liberal Xian and I feel like Xianity is being shoved

down my throat too.... not my version of it but the conservative fundagelical one...

Not fun at all. :(

[mcar]

26. Me too

I'm a liberal Christian in a primarily fundie community. We're forever being invited to bible studies. My son, who just graduated from high school, had to drop several friends a few years ago (to his great credit) because they kept saying that another friend of theirs was going to hell because she is Hindu.

I study all faiths, and hope I respect all beliefs, as long as one isn't disrespecting mine (like the fundies do). I'm Christian but I don't believe the tripe that that makes me "better" in God's eyes -- I was raised Catholic and we were taught that everyone has a chance to get into heaven but Catholics have a better chance. Even as I child I realized how stupid that was.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Yup nt

[dogday]

48. I think I know how you feel

it is like politics. You see things you don't like and it eats you up inside because day after day you see things going on you can't change. That goes for just about everything in life. When you don't like something and it is shoved in your face, everywhere you go, you will like it less and less till you can't stand and even hate it.

There are things in this world I can't stand and I see it on a daily basis and I can either let it get to me or I can shake it off and keep going and believing what I need to believe.

[youthere]

55. I'm there with you.

I'm a liberal Xian who homeschools so every wacko fundie in the area wants to camp on my doorstep. Donde los yikes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Blessed be

as a Universal Sufi, I understand a bit what you mean. I was raised a Christian and left my particular church because of religious intolerance expressed by members of the church. I found the Dances of Universal Peace and Sufism, which was the right fit for me.

I live in Arkansas, and have found, sadly, that it is not wise to use my Sufi name (I had considered legally changing it, but then 911 came along....)and also, sadly, not wise to talk much about the Dances, which honor all spiritual traditions (including yours) and welcome anyone who wishes to participate.

There have been times here at DU where people have said things about faiths that have shown their lack of knowledge of that faith, and sometimes the remarks come off as being very intolerant. What I would suggest everyone do is to look at their posts before submitting them and think how they would feel if the remarks were made about their faith (or their not having a faith). Perhaps that way we can all come closer to understanding why people of different faiths/no faiths sometimes get riled by things posted.

Blessed be to you.

[Kazak]

11. Right on!

:thumbsup:

[joneschick]

12. greetings from a past Dancer

we danced at the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago, um '92 or '93. Brother Joe at the helm...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. I"ve danced with Brother Joe

He's really neat. Dances are still going strong in the upper Midwest.

[joneschick]

84. Nice to make the connection!

Namaste

[estivi78]

20. Be open

Nothing offends me more than bashing religion or faith. Whether its a neoconservative bashing Islam, the other extremity bashing Christianity, or anything in between, putting down others' beliefs is a horrible practice.
Most religions tell their followers to help the religion expand. So when we encounter someone in a white shirt at the door we should be polite when we tell them to "shove it."
One of the things I am most proud of is seeing, in my neighborhood, a Mormon church next to a Wesleyan which are down the street from a Greek Orthodox, a Synagogue, and a Church of Scientology.
I welcome the diversity even though I know my religion is right.

[Hamlette]

3. for me, I don't mind being on the "outside"

my issue is people making decisions made on religion. "God told me to do it." There is no way to argue with it and I wonder where it will end. If it is illegal to have an abortion because of god, will they outlaw birth control for the same reason? If it is illegal for gays to marry because god doesn't like gays, will it be illegal for non-christians to marry for the same reason? If it iw wrong to teach evolution because it conflicts with the Bible, will the Bible be used to make all our science and laws?

None of us want to live in a society like that. People of faith need to make it clear religion has no place in politics.

[The Straight Story]

4. I dunno, Jesus bashed jews and the prophets did too

and in the NT there was some bashing of fellow, false christians, and we were told to watch out for such people.

I am a christian myself, and I don't really like broad based attacks without qualifiers - but sometimes I know it is more expedient to broad base instead of classify via sub labels.

Outside criticisms are worthwhile. Looking back at most the bible too we see a lot of prophets railing against those who wrongly used the faith. I am open to hearing them as it relates to modern day things, to not want to hear them seems too sheltering of one's beliefs.

I listened a lot to the words of Jesus as I read the gospels, and often found (and still do) myself falling well short of the person I should be.

[orpupilofnature57]

13. As i fail too, the best interpretation of the bible, self effacement which

leaves no time to judge others, total freedom!!

[thinkingwoman]

25. Jesus did NOT bash Jews

Jesus was Jewish.

He bashed hypocrisy and religious ignorance.

Read those gospels again. Jesus was absolutely NOT bashing Jews. He was preaching to them, his relatives and neighbors.

[smirkymonkey]

34. "He bashed hypocrisy and religious ignorance"

I think when any "bashing" goes on here at DU, the above statement usuallly applies.

[thinkingwoman]

43. if only that were true. nt

[eridani]

33. The Jew-bashing is mainly in the Gospel of John

It was written much later than the synoptic Gospels, when Gentiles had become the largest Christian subgroup. Ditto Acts.

[MiniMandaRuth]

5. 'Amen' to that!

I know what it feels like. I'm a kid and I do feel uncomfortable when I'm surrounded by feelings like 'God Knows Best' and 'I Heart Jesus'.

Just my input.

[undeterred]

6. Welcome MiniMandaRuth!

And thanks for your input. :hi:

[orpupilofnature57]

14. I agree ,They make a personal belief, a fundamental t-shirt! WELCOME!!!

[cynatnite]

7. religion shouldn't serve politics and vice versa

It's to the degree that I've grown farther away from it than I ever have been. I'm a little closer to it now than what I used to be, but in most respects I still consider myself rather agnostic.

I grew up southern baptist with fire and brimstone preaching on some occasions. Most of the people I admired the most in christianity always spoke of love, tolerance and not to past judgment on those different. Spreading the gospel was there, but in my lifetime I've never seen it taken to such a degree.

I've taken the attitude that my spirituality is my own business and I think it should be a personal thing for everyone. I don't care how or what people worship.

[orpupilofnature57]

9. You got it! religious politicians put Jesus on the cross, Shrub would too!

[Daphne08]

22. I've never seen anything like this religious movement either,

and I grew up in the Bible Belt.

These "Mega-Church people" seem too smug and self-righteous; and as a Christian myself, I find that to be quite disturbing.

[Klapaucius]

32. I guess what bothers me the most.....

Is the need for these people to try and legislate their spiritual teachings and viewpoints as laws which apply to folks who don't share that same faith.

Faith has it's place, but it should never take the place of rational thought on real world problems. It quite frankly makes me nervous that a man who may believe in the end times has the ability to launch nuclear warheads.

Some people who work in fields like Biology, for example, can reconcile their religious beliefs with their vocation, in such a way that the beliefs are compartmentalized, with logic and scientific method being the guiding principle where it applies to their field of knowledge. I think that with regards to government, people who are in positions of power need to compartmentalize their beliefs such that they don't interfere with a reasoned and rational analysis of problems that are faced by the governing bodies.

I have no problem with people's faith, but when it overrides reason and logic and begins to encroach on other people's freedom, that is where I begin to have problems.

The one moment where Kerry really shone for me during the debates was where he said, that in good conscience, he could not call for legislation which would turn an article of faith for him ( specifically abortion ) into a law for someone who didn't share his faith. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He didn't believe in abortion, *BUT*, it was not a decision that he could make for anyone else. That's the kind of reasoned and rational debate that needs to occur, not the posing and posturing and involvement of faith in practical matters ( the proposed anti-gay marriage amendment being a good example).

I think the interesting thing that going to occur is that people are going to start dividing on faith, where the religious right may demonize the folks who may be of the wrong denomination. It's already happening.

K.

[deanin2008]

8. rock on

you sound more like a christian than most so-called christians i know. i agree with a lot of what you say, and i always try to distinguish between the gospel (which says to take care of the poor) and the conservatives who have literally hijacked so many christian religions.
christianity is not so much about worshipping christ. jesus didnt want to be idolized. he wanted us to love ourselves and each other. sounds simple, dont it?!?

[NMDemDist2]

10. kicked and nominated n/t

[Broken_Hero]

15. I know the feeling darlin...

Keep your head high, your stories, your experiences will be the truth/fact, that having gov/religion mixed, or even just religion, isn't all ways good...like all things, cigarettes, booze, etc...religion needs to be taken in moderation, but a lot of people take it to the extreme, likes its their right to force it upon you to convert, to me, i think they believe its some kinda sick game...

[lildreamer316]

16. Thanks to everyone for the kind comments n/t.

[madeline_con]

17. What if my southern Baptist neighbors find out what my religion is?

How would they, if you don't tell them?

[seabeyond]

37. well, she has an alter.

what if the neighbor peeked in the window. what if the neighbor was invited into the house. what IF her little child said to neighbor we are wiccan cause the child doesnt know she/he is suppose to hide it. the bigger question, is why should this woman have to protect this secret to insure her child isnt taken from her.

[madeline_con]

45. " ...why should this woman have to

... protect this secret to insure her child isnt taken from her."

I would hope something that extreme hadn't been threatened! Are the children of Wiccansroutinely removed for the sole reason that they're the children of Wiccans?

[seabeyond]

47. there has been one case so far

about a month ago. i believe washington state. it has been a while so i dont remember if they threatened to take her away or they did take her away. the court ruled the parents could not have her in wiccan. was a disgusting and odd ruling from the little i had read

[Lilith Velkor]

71. Wasn't there a case in Indiana

where the parents were allowed to keep their child on the condition they don't teach her their religion? Or was that this case?

[seabeyond]

75. yes you are right. thought mid west

but then saw a post for washington. yes. and had something to do with custody hearing, though both parents are wiccan, so just odd. like it came up, and judge ruled on something none of his business.

[madeline_con]

82. "... was a disgusting and odd ruling ..."

It sounds disgusting and odd.

Too many don't realize Wicca isn't a dangerous cult. (sigh)

[Tux]

93. Yes

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/local/11755584.htm

[nonconformist]

18. THANK YOU

The 'poor, persecuted, disenfranchised' crap gets really old after awhile. They have no clue.

Nominated.

[NMMNG]

19. Blessed be with metta

Being an atheist lesbian dabbling in Buddhism I understand where you're coming from.

I recognize that criticisms and/or "bashing" of Christianity occur at times but historically members of other religions (or no religion) have been the ones bearing the brunt of the disdain. Christianity, being the dominant religion, enjoyed few if any overt voices protesting against it--and easily squelched those that arose.

It has gotten to a point where a subdivision of Christianity, namely the Fundamentalists, have supercharged the climate to the point that all but the meekest are fighting back. The result is a backlash that is sometimes healthy, but sometimes nasty and downright rabid. Some mistakenly consider the acts/beliefs of the Fundamentalists to be those of Christianity in general, and respond accordingly (much as many consider the acts/behavior of radical Muslims indicative of Islam as a whole).

People of the non-dominant religions are used to being bashed. They don't like it, but they're used to it. For the average Christian it's a pretty new phenomena (forget about the Fundies and their pretend "anti-Christian bigotry" here).

I openly bash fundies and have no qualms about that. I try to restrict any other comments to the Atheist board, unless there is a specific debate thread on one of the religion boards. If I slip and make a boo boo elsewhere I apologize--anyone is free to call me on it at any time.

[LightningFlash]

21. I don't feel any sympathy.

Then again, I see christianity for what it is a moderate religion. Others seem to see it as an extreme agenda they can blow down everybody's throught. And those people aren't christians, they're anything but like Dean pointed out.

They are extremist fuckers with an axe to grind. People I've beaten up before or seen beat up, because they try to force everyone to accept their view. ;)

[G_j]

24. having spent time

with Native Americans sometimes in a spiritual or 'religious' context, but also as a rights activist, I began to understand how arrogantly some in our society treat 'minority' beliefs.
I am also aware of the disgraceful history of this from a good deal of reading. Indigenous peoples all over the globe are under extreme stress. It is hard to have this conversation without looking at our history.

I also have Wiccan friends and have friends who consider themselves Witches. It is quite common for public Wiccan ceremonies here to be picketed and harassed by 'Christian' fanatics. I've never seen it the other way around (Wiccans harassing Christians)

[thinkingwoman]

27. You speak true

I can sympathise with your description of living a hidden life. Been there done that myself for many years.

My kids are both teens now, and once the youngest reaches 18 I will finally be openly Pagan. Just a few more years now.

[seabeyond]

28. i am a christian and i understand. i dont think it is even a little hard

to understand. i am having a tougher time understanding the christians, not understanding what people are saying. i love my religion, yet, in the last three years, the "christians" are making ME uncomfortable with my religion. and as a christian, i resent the hell out of it

of course i understand where you are coming from, and i am sorry, and i support you.

and yes i understand where so many who arent christians are coming from

it is only christians, that are going to be able to do something about the christians. it is only the baptist, that will heal their religion. only the catholic that will heal their religion.

so it is up to the religious, that are bothered by the bashing, to do something about the unchristian behavior of their religion that is creating this anger towards them

[thinkingwoman]

30. Amen

From your mouth to G-d's ears.

[H2O Man]

29. As a religious person

who believes that the teachings of the prophet Jesus are of great value, I think it is a huge threat to the nation's stability as a democracy when the lines between church and state are blurred. However, even if it were not a threat to the country, it would still be equally wrong in every individual case when a person's rights are violated by intolerant and ignorant Christians.

I spoke last night with a close friend who is heading to the Black Hills for this year's Sun Dance. It was not long ago that it would have been illegal for this elderly woman to participate in this sacred ceremony. The threat posed by the intolerant Christians effects many of us in a variety of ways.

[Ganja Ninja]

31. As a non-religious person ...

I'm sick of these people sticking their religion (and the flag) in my face as if it were their middle finger. That is their intent whether they want to admit it or not.

[youthere]

66. Hell Sentinel Chicken...I am a religious person and I'm sick of it too.

n/t

[bertha katzenengel]

35. I'm sorry.

"Are you telling me these are the kinds of Christians in power? On TV?" No! I don't think any follower of Christ on this board believes that anyone in the Bush Administration who claims the same mantle is honestly following him.

I used to be one of those who'd shove it down your throat. I'd be standing in a line in the grocery store and hear two people chatting behind me; one would say "oh, my God!" and I'd turn around and get in her face and say "IS He your God?!" I used to "witness" to any stranger standing with me at the bus stop or the people I played softball with or -- wherever. Witnessing is telling the "good news" of Christ's redemption, and he commanded his followers to do it (or so it's interpreted) at the end of Matthew's gospel. But I don't think most people do it primarily because of that command. I think they do it because they are co-dependent. I'm serious. I used to know exactly how to get you to heaven, and oh, I would weep at the thought of you spending eternity in the flaming torturous pit of hell, and pray, crying, on my knees, for you to accept Jesus. Why, you just HAD to accept his love & sacrifice!

I'm totally serious. This is how it is for FECs. It's how it was for me.

I never realized what was going through those peoples' minds: "this person thinks I'm an idiot because I don't believe in her extreme religion." I'm disgusted when I think of who I used to be.

In less than twenty years, I've gone from being a fundamentalist evangelical Christian to an atheist to an agnostic-leaning-atheist who still finds following Christ a worthy endeavor (much in the same league as following Gandhi).

So I apologize. You're too young to have been one of my victims, way back in my ignorant, "I-know-it-all" days. But on behalf of the mindless FEC salvation-wielding automatons, I apologize.

I'm not a pagan but I hope you don't mind if I say to you, blessed be. Good luck, lildreamer.

[seabeyond]

36. what an interesting story

wow, thank you for sharing.

[H2O Man]

38. Well said.

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this. The only thing I would say is do not be disgusted at who you once were. It doesn't matter where we started out -- it's where we end up that is important. And the message you share here is indeed important.

[frictionlessO]

39. tears Bertha, from this pagan a very warm thank you!

:hug:

I love it when I see people cross cultural divides and use phrasing from without their own culture to share their empathy....

Great post!

[thinkingwoman]

44. Thank you, and please forgive yourself

Reading your post helped me heal just a little from the past 5 years I have spent in fundie hell, hiding who I am.

Please don't be disgusted by your former self any longer. You have made amends inho.

Thank you again. God/Goddes/Universe bless you.

[Misunderestimator]

49. Holy shit, Bertha! I would never have imagined that.

You would have gotten a mighty earful if you had done any of that to me. SOOOOO glad you changed. :hug:

[lildreamer316]

96. Oh bertha...

You certainly don't need to apologize to me; as long as in general you have attempted to see things from the other side (as I see you have very well!) no apology is needed. I really do not have a serious complex about this issue, it is just that sometimes people who complain about Christianiy being bashed drive me nuts! They are just experiencing for the first time what I have been dealing with in some form since I was 13. I just wanted to make sure they took a good, calm, clear look from a different point of view. I am sure that you had your reasons to act the way you did, and hope that someone else would have the same kind of understanding for me in such a situation.
And you can say whatever you want to me dear! May the good Goddess & God bless you and yours.

[progressivebydesign]

100. Thanks for sharing that. You captured what people really think..

You have a unique perspective that absolutely captures how I feel when someone tries to shove their religion in my face.. I'm glad you recovered. YOu are absolutely right.. co-dependency sounds about right. I have yet to meet someone who is in a balanced place in their life AND actively freakin about religion.

[frictionlessO]

40. "to know, to dare, and to keep silent" its always struck me odd

that that particular rede could be the CIAs or some Special Ops forces motto.

Your post was awesome, from one Pagan DU'er to another I must say I find that the religious climate here is still way mor welcoming than many boards I've been on. Its a cold day in Lucifers hell when anyone gets away with denigrating pagan beliefs (or most other alternative minority paths) for very long around here.

The battle between the Christians for their religion and (gulp!) their own spiritual paths, is being fought and I know that I will stand with those that would not seek to constantly convert me but would rather live and let live. I don't give a hootie and the blowfish what they want to call themselves, as long as they live honestly by some form of the golden rule... and in saying as much I shall close with the Rede... "An it harm none, do what thou wilt"






....All acts of Love and Pleasure are here rituals....


Good Morning all ye Goddesses!

[Lilith Velkor]

74. to know, to will, to dare, and to keep silent

That comes from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. I think Gardner used to belong to that order, which is why you see a lot of overlap in the ritual structure.

[noonwitch]

42. Do you have a current threat to the custody of your kid?

If you do, contact the Lady Liberty League through Circle Network, or, of course, the ACLU.

In Michigan, we don't take children away from parents for religious beliefs-there has to be abuse or neglect. In custody hearings between parents, however, it's a different matter and probably something that is addressed differently in different jurisdictions. But if your neighbors called CPS to complain that you were a wiccan and had kids and had no allegations beyond that, they would be told politely that they don't have any grounds to make a complaint.

[lildreamer316]

94. Oh, no no...

It's just that I see that it could very well happen in the religious and political climate that currently exists; and (!!) I'm in the Bible belt (more !!!!). I'm probably a bit paranoid about it, being a relatively new mother and all, but I'm sure you can understand. If not me, probably soon someone like me, unfortunately. Thanks for the kind words of support....

[ComerPerro]

46. Now that's presecution

We suffer abuse, some of us, every day because of who we are. Recently a judge in Washington state took kids away from a couple (married) because they believe as I do. This is possibly something that could happen to me; I am a wiccan exotic entertainer mother of one. What if my southern Baptist neighbors find out what my religion is? What if they report me to Social Services? I have to hide my altar or disguise it;


And, you're right. I am tired of the fundie definition of persecution.

They think that refusing to write their religious beliefs into legislation is persecution.

[Festivito]

50. You don't seem to anser anyone lildreamer316?

Answer: Constitution protects free speech, not freedom of quiet.

I get fed up with other people's freedoms, but, remembering thats how I get mine, I'm not bothered so much.

Good luck.

[Tsiyu]

51. I am not a Christian

I am not a Pagan; I am not Jewish; I am not Muslim; I am not a Buddhist; I am not Wiccan; I am not Hindu; I am not anything. I am a person.

But I learned something today.

An example : If I say that I am angry at the way the Iraqis are treated by some Americans, even if I state that I am NOT an Iraqi quite clearly, there are those sorts of people who will say, "Oh, you are feeling persecuted. You must be an Iraqi!"

Me: "No, I am not an Iraqi."

Bigot: "Well, if you were a GOOD Iraqi, you would have spoken out against Saddam Hussein!"

Me: "I'm not an Iraqi, and I don't give a fuck about Saddam Hussein or the history of Iraq or why YOU personally hate Iraqis and Saddam Hussein. I am saying that I am upset over the way the Iraqis are being treated ."

Bigot: "If you were a good Iraqi, you wouldn't get upset like that and say mean things about all Americans."

Me: "I'm not an Iraqi. I didn't say anything about ALL Americans, only those who are using the Iraqis to suit their own selfish ends."

Bigot: "Well, they're just stupid Muslims, who cares? I mean, don't all Muslims beat up their women, make them wear veils, hate alcohol and pornography? Why worry about those assholes?"

Me: "No, all Muslims do not do these things or believe these things and furthermore, all Iraqis are not Muslims."

Bigot: "Yes they are and I can prove it because i know ten iraqis and they all do those things."

Me: "Really? So they embody ALL Iraqis to you?"

Bigot: "Well, the good Iraqis are nowhere to be seen. So what else do i have to go on?"


Me: "Maybe the millions of other Iraqis? Have you met them all? Have you actively sought them out before you made your blanket assessment?"

Bigot: "Well, let me tell you about Iraqi history. In 1894...."

Me: "Stop right there. I am not arguing the history or philosophy of past or present iraq. I am saying merely that we should not be abusing these people to get what we want."

Bigot: "Feeling persecuted? Stupid Iraqi."

Me: "Once again: I am NOT AN IRAQI so how can I feel their pain? I am merely speaking up in their defense because I am tired of what is happening to them."

Bigot: "Stupid Iraqi. Cry me a river....."



And so it goes. When people don't even take the time to read all that a person is saying, and they jump to conclusions, they can't argue any point, they are just jumping at the chance to attack someone.

I have hung around a bunch of Wiccans and was treated quite poorly by some of the women, which surprised me because I thought they would be more welcoming and kind to a female than some Christians or Muslims. I could tell you the details but it doesn't matter. I refuse to judge or condemn ALL Wiccans because of the actions of these few women. I have been treated poorly by Christians, but I refuse to condemn all of them because I know there are many good Christians. I have argued the merits of female genital mutilation with a Muslim male, but i don't believe his acceptance of the practice is a common theme among ALL Muslims. That's what being an adult is all about - not making childish assumptions about others.

I have no faith of choice today. I believe I am responsible for me and no Santa in the sky is gonna make it all better. But i respect and am tolerant of those who DO beleive in a higher power, whether they worhip God, Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Isis, the Goddess or otherwise.

And I will stand up and defend anyone of any faith if i feel that they are being unfairly characterized. That does not make me one of their faith. It just makes me a person who hates bigots.

i am sorry for your experiences and I know you are trying to find soem understanding here.

But others take a bad experience to be a red light to attack a whole faith, how are they any different than the Germans who blamed the Jews for all of their problems/ Christians have become scapegoats to some "progressives" ( and I use the term loosely, here) and that is just plain wrong. If people hate me for speaking up against that sort of religious bigotry, I am proud to have earned their enmity.

[beam me up scottie]

52. ARE YOU SAYING THAT CHRISTIANS ARE THE "NEW JEWS"???

You dare compare your perception of religious persecution to that of the Jewish people in Germany ???

ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?

"But others take a bad experience to be a red light to attack a whole faith, how are they any different than the Germans who blamed the Jews for all of their problems/ Christians have become scapegoats to some "progressives" ( and I use the term loosely, here) and that is just plain wrong."

I'd like to hear your justification for your insult to the victims of the holocaust.

[Tsiyu]

54. Of course not

Only the attitude is the same.

As I said, I know what it is like to be a non-Christian because I AM A NON CHRISTIAN!!!!!!! Did you not read where I typed that a half-dozen times? I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!!!I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!!!

How many times must I say that to you and the Christian haters around here?

I did not mention the Holocaust, you did. I mentioned the ATTITUDE of hating all persons of one faith or another. Was that not a factor in pre-WWII Germany? Or did I just make that up? Is Muslim hating not a factor in the current warmongering of this Administration?

I am just as disgusted with fundies as the rest of you, believe me. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. BUT SO DO MANY CHRISITANS WHO VOTE, HOLD PUBLIC OFFICE AND POST HERE ON DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lumping all Christians into one category is dangerous and bigoted.

You want to hate me for expressing my disdain for the bigotry against Christians? Hate me, please. I really couldn't give a shit

[beam me up scottie]

60. "How many times must I say that to you and the Christian haters...

around here?"

So now I'm a christian hater ?

"As I said, I know what it is like to be a non-Christian because I AM A NON CHRISTIAN!!!!!!! Did you not read where I typed that a half-dozen times? I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!!!I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!!!"

And as I said, I don't CARE what you are.
I don't look at the world like you do.
I don't see people as either christians or non-christians.

Thank you for your rational reply and for proving my point.

[Tsiyu]

79. Since the OP made that distinction I also made that distinction

Or did you even read the OP?

Can you come up with your own argument, or do you always parrot back what others say and then claim "you made my point?"

[beam me up scottie]

88. Your shrill cries of persecution were an insult to the op.

Your post had nothing to do with her experience.

And don't blame me for your words when I throw them back at you.

Back them up.

Oh, that's right, you can't.

Whenever someone calls your bluff, you call them haters and bigots.

Where's your proof ?

You brought your imaginary issue into her thread to try to show everybody how persecuted christians are since you failed to make your point in several others.

Guess what ?

It didn't work this time either.

Is that the best you can do ?

Let me guess, I'm a hater and a bigot, right ?

[beam me up scottie]

89. dupe

[Misunderestimator]

68. Holy crap man. What's with the yelling?

First you entirely misinterpret the OP, in my opinion... then you react this way when you offend someone by comparing this perceived christian persecution (yes, yes, you're not christian...) to jews during the Holocaust?

You simply cannot compare the perceived persecution of a majority with the actual (and deadly) persecution of a minority. Apples and Oranges.

[Tsiyu]

76. I was responding in kind to beam me up scotty's yelling

and I am comparing hatred against hatred, not the end result of that hatred. We have no idea how hatred of Christians will play itself out.

[Misunderestimator]

81. What hatred of christians? Is it hatred for someone to tell you the story

of their life, and the discrimination they have experienced? How? Where in the OP does it condemn christians or christianity?

I didn't detect one bit of hate in the OP towards christians... how did you interpret it that way?

[Tsiyu]

83. I was not speaking about the OP

I was speaking about those on DU who must bash Christians at every opportunity.

Today we had a thread that implied that all Christians are racist. had that post been made of any other group it would have been locked.

Progressive Christians ARE the minority in the Christian community. WE can attack Christianity and its practice all day long, but we shouldn't project our anger and hatred of "Christian" bigots to those progressive Christians who are on OUR side.

I agree with what the OP said. I feel for her unique situation. But I will not turn around and become a bigot myself to get even or take out my frustration.

[Misunderestimator]

85. I do not see the hatred. What I do see are people saying that they

are being persecuted. And your last paragraph made no sense at all. Is someone asking you to be a bigot?

Here, have this :beer:

[beam me up scottie]

87. "We have no idea how hatred of Christians will play itself out."

Unreal, absolutely unreal.
Yeah, before you know it, we'll be herding them off the the camps...

Nice to see your perception hasn't been altered at all by reality or compassion for the REAL victims of persecution, whose suffering you just minimized yet AGAIN by suggesting that christians may meet a fate comparable to theirs.

I'm glad this is on an internet forum, really, because if I ever tried to tell people I heard someone actually say that, they'd never believe me.

[H2O Man]

53. You are correct that

hatred is hatred, and ignorance is ignorance. There are not degrees of hatred based upon ignorance. Your post does not compare the victims of the ignorance and hatred, though some may choose to twist it into this. Rather, it compares the actions of those who hate. And you are right.

[beam me up scottie]

57. "Christians have become scapegoats to some "progressives"

Doesn't need twisting to sound ridiculous, does it?

Let's post it on other progressive forums, shall we?
Then we can better judge just how pervasive this "religious persecution" is.

I'll post the results.

[H2O Man]

61. Interesting

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And I am sure you are no more interested in my opinion than I am yours. Luckily there is room for both of us. Peace to you, and may George Bush make such an ass of himself tonight that in our distant worlds, we both have a laugh at something besides each other.

[H2O Man]

86. Note: He did!

Thanks, George.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Yes, he did at that.

But I feel more like crying than laughing for some reason...

[Tsiyu]

65. Play whatever game you want

Hate whomever you want.

It's your business whom you discriminate against.

You're so right. Christians are what's wrong with America today. They have destroyed the country and they should all abandon their faith.

You hear that, Kerry? You hear that Hillary? Stop going to church because you are all just racist fundies in disguise!


I have no business trying to defend the many Christians on this board who are too afraid to say anyhting or you'll jump down their throats. Have at em! Give em hell. That's what good progressives do! Condemn an entire faith!

i give up.....

[beam me up scottie]

69. Keep going.

"Hate whomever you want.

It's your business whom you discriminate against.

You're so right. Christians are what's wrong with America today. They have destroyed the country and they should all abandon their faith."

"I have no business trying to defend the many Christians on this board who are too afraid to say anyhting or you'll jump down their throats. Have at em! Give em hell. That's what good progressives do! Condemn an entire faith!"

I don't even need to respond at this point, you're making my case for me.

[BurtWorm]

70. I do see something that looks like hate here

but it's not coming from where you seem to think it's coming.

I have to say, as an atheist, I come out and say what I think of Christianity (which tends to be pretty critical), but I very rarely get into trades of condemnations with Christians here. In fact I find myself agreeing with or being agreed with by a lot of progressive Christians on DU, even on the subject of Christianity.

One thing I have low tolerance for, though, is an appeal to pity on behalf of Christianity, especially of the variety that opines that people's religious beliefs should not be questioned.

[Tsiyu]

77. WEll, we each see things differently

The PMs in my inbox would indicate that there are Christians here who are upset over some of the threads about Christians.

It's a small minority who bashes, but it's WRONG. If you posted some of these threads about any other religion here, they would be locked in heartbeat.

[beam me up scottie]

90. You mean like "Name three things dumber than christianity"? tm

Oops!

My bad.

That was a thread about ANOTHER religion that never got deleted or even locked.

Kind of blows your theory out of the water, doesn't it ?

Unless you can show us some more of these hateful threads bashing christians.

I'm sure the mods would love to see them since I'm positive nobody would have alerted on them, right ?

I'll wait here.

[BurtWorm]

95. Are you saying there are Christian DUers who are offended by attacks

on right-wing Christianity? Or are there threads on DU that bash progressive Christianity?

[Zhade]

98. Thank you. It's not "persecution" to question any faith.

It's NOT persecution to point out that things like virgin births and resurrections haven't ever been proven to have occurred, for example.

[Tsiyu]

58. Thank you H20 Man

That's all I'm trying to say.

I live in a very "Christian" area, although we have Mormons, Mennonites, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Pagans all living side by side.

Do the forceful Christians get on my nerves? Sure! Do I tell them what I think? Every chance I get! Do they keep me from believing what I want to believe? hell no! I celebrate the Summer and Winter solstices ( a holdover from my Wiccan days) and Christmas and I read Handsome Lake and I love Buddhist thought, and no one is taking that away from me.

If we alienate all Christians on this board, we are not going to have the strenght to fight the so-called Christians who want to turn their twisted faith into the law of the land. WE need all who are sympathetic to the cause, and we should make NO person feel unworthy or stupid or irrelevant becasue of their spiritual practices.

[H2O Man]

62. Sure.

No one can justify hatred. Those who try must always twist the truth. Always. Hatred twists people's minds.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

63. Wow, that was a helpful response.

Not. :eyes:

[patcox2]

67. Its the only response that actually will help.

Hey, you have a right to practice whatever religion you want, or non at all, and you cannot be discriminated against on the basis of it in housing, employment, and places of public accomodation.

But you cannot, and never ever will be able to, make people like it or accept you.

So, why keep living in a place where the people don't accept you? Sure it allows you the comforting dramatic role of persecuted minority, some people like that. I don't, so I have never personally given a shit whether someone is vocal about their religion or it is visible in signs or on TV. I never got all overly dramatic and over-reactive as to think "they're shoving it down my throat." I don't care what ignorant yahoos think.

And if you can't bring yourself not to care, than you have to move away from them. Why do you suppose so many young homosexuals move to the cities, its because the cities are more tolerant and accepting.

What am I supposed to say? {{{{{HUGS}}}}}, don't worry, we will fight for legislation requiring all christians to go to re-education camps where they will be taught to revere and admire you for your religious oddity? yeh, right.

This is the world, this is life, deal with the cards on the table, don't whine for a new deal.

[Terran]

72. Some folks can't afford to pick and move wherever they feel like it.

Did that ever occur to you?

Your logic applies to virtually everything that ever gets discussed at DU. If we can't change any of it, why are you here?

Actually, never mind any of the above. I just thought your attitude was shitty and mean-spirited, okay?

[H2O Man]

73. In fact

no one should have to be expected to pack up and move somewhere else. The idea behind the US Constitution is that every individual has certain rights, including the right to any religion they want, or absolutely no religion at all, without having to face discrimination or obnoxious people attempting to cram their beliefs down that individual's throat. Thus, I agree that "pack up & move" is not the answer; more, it misses the point.

[patcox2]

101. True, noone is expected to move.

And noone should have an expectation or perception that they have a right to be accepted or even not offended. Those behaviors which the constitution, Title VII, and the various state laws proscribe are limited to discrimination in housing, employment, and public accomodation. No laws, no constitution will ever make the majority "accept" or like you or prevent you from being offended. If your easily offended, thats your cross to bear.

[Zhade]

99. "religious oddity"? You're such a hypocrite.

I see you whining about others "bashing" (aka, asking critical questions about) Christianity, and then you say something like this.

Bookmarked for future reference!

[Tux]

97. Actually

As a Deist dating a Wiccan girl, that maybe our only option. We can't find jobs. I lost mine when the contract ended and she was a temp but told she was full time. We may have to move to a big, blue city in order to get work since conservatives here hate anything remotely non-Christian. Even the strip clubs have been cleaned up so they won't be dens for Satan. A big city, if an option, would do wonders since may rational people tend to live there.

[PassingFair]

78. Love it or Leave It, Huh?

Now what do you remind me of.......?

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Makes one wonder...

...how they might react to something like this ADL To Putin: Intervene To End Investigation of Jewish Holy Book? I wonder if an attack like this would wake some people up?

[Ready2Snap]

64. Have you forgotten

the parable of the Pharisee and the publican.
The point Jesus was trying to make is that religion -worship- should be a personal thing, not a show.

"It is no fun to have something that is a basic tenant of your life so lightly dismissed by others;
and especially others whom you consider a support group in many ways."

Fuck the Pharisees. Your beliefs should not be based, and don't need to be supported by,
what anyone else says or wants you to believe.

If you have a personal relationship with God, that's all you need? Que, no?

[Arugula Latte]

80. The "unchurched" are a growing demographic.

Maybe one fine day there will be more of us non-religious folks than religious ones. Wouldn't that be grand? *sigh* I can dream, can't I?

[beam me up scottie]

91. At least in Oregon and Vermont.

Two of the most tolerant states in the country.

Imagine