If I burn your flag, I don't harm your love for your country, do I?

[Lex]

If I choose not to worship your God, I don't keep you from worshipping your God as you see fit, do I?

If I want to get settle down with a member the same sex, I don't keep you from settling down with a member of the opposite sex, do I?

If I choose to have an abortion, I don't keep you from having as many babies as you please, do I?



Sometimes I wonder why Republicans think their country, their religion, their sexuality, and their family life is SO FRAGILE that if people aren't JUST LIKE THEY ARE, then everything would fall like a house of cards.

I have faith in my country, my religion, my sexuality, and my family life so much so that I'm comfortable that everyone doesn't have to feel the same, be the same, or act the same.

Why do Republicans just have so very little faith in these institutions that they claim to love so much? Do they think these things will be revealed as worthless, a sham, a lie, so much Amway hoo-doo or something?

I just don't get their superficiality on these things they claim to hold so dear.

[gulliver]

1. I may not like what you say...

I think it is base, classless, inconsiderate, and reflects immense inner stupidity to burn the flag, but it should not be illegal. I don't think the "ban flag burning" crowd thinks about it as deeply as others might. That doesn't mean their feelings don't count.

But burning the flag is legitimate speech and free speech means more than people's feelings. Putting the two in opposition (except to make a very important point) strikes me as wrong.

[DanCa]

4. Burn flag burn books

Whats the difference between one and the other ?

[madeline_con]

2. "Republicans think their ....... is SO FRAGILE "

That's the weakness of the whole system right there.

Everything they do is typical of a regime that fears its own people.

It's the Democrats' strength.


edit BTW:

We aren't allowed to desecrate the flag literally, but the Right Regime has done so figuratively, and has no plans to stop soon as they drag Old Glory through the mud and make a mockery of what she stands for!!

:mad: :rant:

[Lex]

10. Exactly! Why do Republicans have no faith in the strength

of our institutions and by extension, the American people?

[madeline_con]

19. Thay know darn well

the American people are on their way to clean the WH!

They have some NASTY dust bunnies!

[Outrider]

33. Because,

Republicans know that at the heart of our nation is a flaw. They know that that flaw has once before threatened to bring down the nation, the civil war, and they are now trying to make sure that the flaw can not do so again. The problem is that the flaw is them, the flaw is the idea of an aristocracy in which some people because of birth or other events are deemed to be more equal than others. Their whole ideology is based on this and unless they can insinuate it into the very fiber of the nation it has the potential to once again attempt to rip the nation apart. The only way to do this is to supplant our current institutions and force the majority of citizens to be subservient to their betters.

Personally, I could give a shit about their false patriotism that is designed to make people feel obligated to those that are deemed to be their patriotic betters.

[mistertrickster]

3. Well, don't burn my flag, my friend. I may be a liberal but I'll still

kick your ass.

I'm against a flag-burning amendment (because I respect the constitution too much to support "vanity" amendments), but I'm not going to stand around and watch while somebody burns old Glory.

Sorry . . .

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Gee, that's awfully "liberal" of you...

:eyes:

[mistertrickster]

6. Yeah, sue me . . . some things I refuse to intellectualize about.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. It's a piece of cloth.

No more, no less. Burning that piece of cloth doesn't do a damned thing to what it represents. The map is not the territory.

[geek tragedy]

35. So, we can assume that you thought the allegations of Koran

desecration were a non-story then, right?

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Not quite the same thing.

There's a bit of a difference between a flag (which is merely a symbol) and what is seen as the actual, literal word of God by a billion people. I don't know anyone who thinks that the US flag IS America; not a valid comparison.

[geek tragedy]

39. Putting a few pieces of paper in a toilet isn't going to harm Allah or

injure Islam.

The flag is a symbol of the United States and its people. Burning it is an objective act of hatred and disrespect. People who burn the flag know this--they know it has shock value and that's why they do it.

[Lex]

8. What if I were burning the flag to dispose of it properly?

Would you be able to read my mind?

Do you kick people's asses who wear the flag as a bandanna? A tank top? That is descretion of the flag just as surely as burning it.

Hope you are consistent in your actions, at the least.

[mistertrickster]

12. See, this is why conservatives RIGHTLY ridicule us liberals. It's nothing

but a piece of cloth.

Yeah, and your finger is nothing but a piece of meat. You don't mind if I cut it off, do you?

As for burning a worn-out flag, of course, I don't oppose that--I'm not an idiot. People can tell when you respect the flag and when you don't.

Let's not play some too clever equivocation game--we're not fucking lawyers here.

ON EDIT--we liberals got all bent out of shape, as we should have, when suspected terrorists were subjected to desecration of Al Koran. But, hell, it's "just a book," right?

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. If you don't see the difference between burning a flag...

and cutting off a finger, then you deserve to be ridiculed.

EDIT: And last time I checked, America was neither a religion, nor sacred, despite what a lot of Americans seem to think. Apples and oranges.

[mistertrickster]

18. Well, if you don't see the difference between a piece of cloth and

what the American flag represents to patriots . . . then . . . you ought to, IMHO.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. I see the difference between the map and the territory.

Tear up the map, spill ink on it, set it on fire...the territory remains. And "patriotism" is more than what YOU think it is; ask any veteran of WWII what he was fighting for, and I don't really think "the flag" Is going to be the answer.

THere's a quote attributed to Voltaire: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." As far as I'm concerned, that's a far more "American" attitude than "I'm going to kick your ass".

[mistertrickster]

34. Actually, I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU, and they would

probably agree with you that burning the flag is "free speech" protected by the first amendment. I agree that people have the right (and should have the right) to burn the flag under law.

They have the legal right to express themselves in this way, just like American companies have the legal right to lay-off Americans and move their factories to China.

And I believe that I have the right to try to stop these ignorant pieces of shit from doing it.

*****

It's ironic that liberals like ourselves are always preaching tolerance for the other, unless it's tolerance for the vast majority of Americans who believe flag burning (as a protest) is shameful and despicable.

Perhaps we Americans are entitled to respect our own superstition as well as the Trobriander's and the Sufi's.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Actually, if someone has the legal right to do something...

then you don't have the right to stop them (and if you think they SHOULD have the right to do so, then why try to stop them, anyway? There's a bit of a logical disconnect there). And your argument contains something you should reflect on, as well: anyone who DOES burn the flag in protest is probably going to be viewed with distaste by most Americans, which makes it rather ineffective at doing anything save causing anger....not to mention that anyone burning a flag in a public demonstration would most likely be arrested on any of a number of charges, including arson, creating a public disturbance, reckless endangerment, et cetera. Which makes it rather self-defeating, I'd say.

[Lex]

16. Yeah, it hurts to be too "thinky" about these things . . .

let's just kick their asses!

Wearing a flag as a bandanna = okay.

Burning a flag under any circumstances = ass kicking.


Got it.

[mistertrickster]

21. Damn right, the bandana isn't my way to show respect, but the

bikers who wear it that way, are not deliberately showing disrespect.

Burning the flag as a protest against the United States is deliberate disrepect meant to shock and appall.

And it does.

[burrowowl]

9. Let's say that

Some French friends who came over from France with me (Iwas living in France at the time) to see the Grand Canyon and all that were askance at a baseball game where there is the Stars Spangled Banner, the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. They said if they had that in France they would burn the French Flag, however none would pay attention.
As for 'descration', this only applies to things holy or religion related, ergo, the American flag cannot be descrated as long as there is separation of church and state and the 2nd commandment: thou shall not have false gods before me holds.

[bluestateguy]

11. You can burn your own flag

But if you burn mine or somebody else's without their permission then you are destroying private property. We have existing laws on the books to deal with those offenses.

I oppose this absurd amendment to the constitution. This is not the form of protest I choose to use because it never works to win people to my side of an issue. You don't win over conservative white people in Kansas to your cause by burning a flag to get attention.

[Lex]

13. Well the post wasn't just about flag burning

but I was trying to make a larger point, which I must've failed miserably at doing.

[flyarm]

14. what do we do with a flag thats worn and tattered??

or that has gotten into mud or dirt??

how do we dispose of the us flag with reverance to our national flag??

we are supposed to burn it..never ever put it in the trash..

it is supposed to be burned!!!!

[RandomKoolzip]

17. They actually don't give much of a shit...

Issues like this are intentional distractions.

[skyounkin]

20. It's the ownership society.....

with the republican reich, they own it so therefore it cannot be yours, the flag, supporting the troops, abortion, etc, therefore if you do not own it you cannot have it, it's mind game, you cannot "own" supporting the troops, no one can- but democrats fall into the trap of trying to one up the republicans on crap like this......

If you want to burn a flag I won't like it, but I won't stop you.

You try and burn MY flag that I have on my house I'll kick your ass.

Somethings ARE worth something to some people while they are not worth something to someone else.

Also after 9-11, to me they should have burned the flag from on top of the towers, instead of parading it around. There are times you are suppose to burn a flag to retire it from service.

But that is just me.

[Lex]

23. I guess if the Republicans could, they'd force us all into conformity.

All of us good little citizens, widgets, exactly the same.

Revere the flag, get married, have babies, worship as told, don't dissent.

That's what the Republicans want it seems.

[skyounkin]

25. Republicans fall in

Line, Democrats fall in love....as the saying goes.

They are really lock step about this stuff, conformity uniformity, individualism need not apply.

[Broken_Hero]

24. Because they don't know...

What they are talking about. They say this, or that, becasue they have no first hand knowledge of it, most depend on what other people say on it, well, what other important people in their life say about it. If good old reverend SassyPants, hates gays, Rev. Sassypants is a good man, so i must agree with Sassypants cause he is a good man. But on the other hand, how are they to make judgements on say, gays, when there are no gays around them, to help them make a judgement (wait, there are probably gays around them, they are just hiding). But in most cases, they don't have that. If it was 18 yrs ago, i would be on the freeper side, back when i was an idiot...

I was raised mormon, believe what was told to me, was told if i masturbate i'm going to burn in hell, told if i drank caffeine i was going to hell, told if i didn't serve a two year mission, i was going to hell, you get the picture? So, they had me, i went with the churh ideaology, even defended it, when people would find out i was mormon, they would pot shot me, and i would defend the church. I was the stereotpyical mormon, until i went to college.

I went to college in Lawrence, KS. I wsa surronded by a whole new slew of people, diversity, and a wide range of hotties!...:) And there, i met a lot of gays/lesbians, at first i was, well, i wasn't afraid, i was curious more than anything, about what they are like, and guess what, they are just like us, (hetero) except they like the same sex, everything is about the same. But, back to the point, this little story is an example, of how i over came, something that i didn't know, and with this story, i started to question a lot of other things, (if they lied about this, what else did they lie about)

But, in some cases, i'm sure this is one of the many reasons why. But mostly, ignorance, not knowing any better, that is what ignorance is, just plain not knowing any better, yet a lot of RW think they know everything, yet their field experience in life is relatively minimal, and really sheltered/protected....:P

[Broken_Hero]

26. ack...

not 18 yrs ago, i mean 10 yrs ago, damn it...:)

[Lex]

27. Thank you. I enjoyed your post.

I think that conservatives really *are* afraid that they might find out they are dead-ass wrong on many issues if they actually learned more, traveled more, and knew different people.

That's why they hate education, other countries, and anything or anyone that is different from them.

[Broken_Hero]

30. Thanks....

A woman i argue with from Ark, she is really sheletered, she has been to a few states, all within driving distance(OK, MO, KS), but othe than that she hasn't been anywhere. She went to school at OSU (Oklahoma ST. University) and she claims that the knowledge she learned there, plus her knowledge she learned from the farm/church is all she needs in life. I took that comment with a lot of salt. I told her so you make your decisions based on farm/church/osu standards, and not your own? She says they are her own, i'm like no, they are not, its what you have been told to believe, but its a tug of war with her, and the precious farm/church/osu, and she hates osu, she is a huge OU fan.

If you go no where, learn everything you know from books, and only listen to people who have a certain narrow view of right/wrong, your out look on life is going to be pretty narrow, cause there is no one there to question you. Well, im there to question this woman, and by god, i'm just full of elitist left media bias, and of course i know nothing, but again, her knowledge is farm/church/osu...

As far as the flag burning thing, i really don't care wheter its burning, or proudly displayed, what i care about is the RIGHT, the RIGHT to do whatever you want to it, why is the government trying to tell you wwhat you can do, or not do to a ten dollar flag?

[Broken_Hero]

28. its a war of ideas, essentially...

its like Limp Bizkit said "its all about the he said she said bullshit". I don't really care about the flag burning or not. I don't care, if the flag is burning, or if its planted in someones yard. But the right, the plain and simple right, to burn it, to do whatever you want to it, is a right. Its a right of the owner of the damn flag. If i spent 10 bucks on a flag, and i wanted to burn it, why the hell should the goverment tell me no? whats next, i can't burn a bible, or i can't burn wood for warmth? Its just a flag, its a symbol, it means nothing essentially, in the scope of things.

The flag represents the nation the where you are from. If soemone wants to burn it with gas, go ahead, its your buddies, its an ownerships society, you paid for it, go for it. If soemone wants to put it on their car/house/front yard, go ahead man, its your right to do so, its your RIGHT. They are threatning to take away that right, to burn the flag, whats next?

[cynatnite]

29. I hate to see anyone burning the flag

but, I'm not going to stop anyone from doing it no matter their reason.

Having said that, if I go to the store, buy a flag and take it home, it is my property. I should be able to sit on it, use it as a rug or whatever I want.

Desecration is like pornography. I'll know it when I see it.

[Kipepeo]

31. I think there is a difference between Republican leaders

and Republican voters.

I don't think Republican leaders give a damn about burning the flag or legalizing gay marriage or having the ten commandments in a courtroom, etc. But they know that if they build up these ridiculous fears on the backs of existing prejudice that they can enrage a large group of people and while getting those folks to vote for them they are also simultaneously keeping them from focusing on any of the REAL problems they face that the government could REALLY do something about.

[cynatnite]

32. gotta protect 'em from us sinners

:sarcasm:

[Just Me]

38. It is strange, isn't it; symbols holding more gravity than substance.

They seem so fearful that they are compelled to cling to empty icons and to impose dominance over others. The projection of their fear makes co-existence far more difficult than need be.