What's the Democratic Solution to the Iraq Problem Created by George Bush?

[Stephanie]

Let's provide an answer to this question:



Listening to Mr. Bush offer the usual emotional rhetoric about the advance of freedom and the sacrifice of American soldiers, our thoughts went back to some of the letters we received in anticipation of the speech. One was from the brother of a fallen Marine, who said he did not want Mr. Bush to say the war should continue in order to keep faith with the men and women who have died fighting it. "We do not need more justifications for the war. We need an effective strategy to win it," he wrote. Another letter came from an opponent of the invasion who urged the American left to "get over its anger over President Bush's catastrophic blunder" and start trying to figure out how to win the conflict that exists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/29/opinion/29wed1.html?oref=login

[applegrove]

1. Get rid of Halliburton and introduce UN procurement laws so that

Iraqis and baathists have a kick at the can and get busy with making money on the rebuilding - rather than Halliburton.

[Erika]

2. The globalists, under Bush, are robbing all Iraqi assetts

and no one is speaking up for the Iraqis.

[opihimoimoi]

4. Its High Time someone steps in with a worthy plan....could it be the DU?

[Stephanie]

9. Why not us? Us and our compatriots at Kos & other dark dungeons of the

internets. We are the grassroots. The news bubbles up from us to them.

[doodadem]

11. Howard Dean is on Hardball tomor. night

Giving his impression of Bush's speech, etc. We need to take this opportunity, and EVERY single chance we can get to say, this is how we are better than Bushco and how we're going to get this country back on track. The public should be hearing the same message so often, that there's no question about how they will vote in 2006, or '08.

[opihimoimoi]

44. Step up the Level of Information Correction to counter the BushCo BS

I Luv it....

[applegrove]

5. Those are not globalists. Neocons are not globalists. They don't

believe in free trade and democracy. They believe in private at all costs and no national industry for emerging nations to share wealth while they diversify, build middle classes and decide what are the best trade deals and rules and regulations to follow for themselves. Like human rights standards. They believe in letting American corporations dominate either at the end of a gun or by blackmailing countries into signing up to their alternative to global initiatives (to get aid) like the International Criminal Court which Bush hates so he has "invented" a system of his own.

[Stephanie]

6. I was wondering tonight - do we have info on ownership of Iraqi oil?

What was the ownership under Saddam, and what is the ownership now? Curious to know, seeing as Dick Cheney was holding secret energy panel meetings to divvy up Iraqi oil interests among various "suitors" in spring 2001.

[Teaser]

3. What makes you think there is an answer?

Sometimes problems don't have solutions.

[linazelle]

8. Especially quagmires...

And why do Dems have to solve problems created by BushCo? Let BushCo clean up after the elephant.

[Stephanie]

10. We have to be able to do a better job with the situation than they are

than they are doing. They created it but we are stuck with it regardless.

[linazelle]

12. They are "we"..."we" is America. It's not the Dem's problem

it's America's problem, courtesy of the regressive party.

I am confident that a solution will be found--the only question is how long it will take.

[ugarte]

13. We're not stuck with anything unless we choose to be

The same arguments were made against us getting out of Vietnam...a 'bloodbath' would follow, blah-blah-blah, the loss of American prestige, blah-blah-blah, etc.

Then one day we just left, and it was the right thing to do.

[Teaser]

15. This is the Kobayashi Maru!

If you don't know what that is, click here.

[ugarte]

7. Wars of aggression don't deserve to be won

and wars of occupation cannot be won without levels of extreme brutality which Americans would never tolerate.

The only rational policy for Americans is to get out. We have no right to be there and staying only postpones the inevitable. With all we've done to fuck the place up, what makes anyone think we have the capacity to fix it, or 'win' it?

[LynnTheDem]

14. But the RIGHTWING, including REPUBLICAN SENATORS who are angry

and who OPPOSED bush's war from the start, even VOTED AGAINST bush's war, DON'T have to "GET OVER ITS ANGER"???

Ain't it typical that a rightwingnut thinks ONLY THE "LEFT" opposed, still opposes, and is ANGRY over bush's war. :eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Only Lincoln Chafee opposed the IWR in the Senate.

In the House, six Republicans -- Ron Paul of Texas; Connie Morella of Maryland; Jim Leach of Iowa; Amo Houghton of New York; John Hostettler of Indiana; and John Duncan of Tennessee -- joined 126 Democrats in voting against the resolution.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

[noamnety]

16. The Poor Man said it best

"… And, before you ask: no, I have no clue about how we can improve things in Iraq. I don’t have a single idea for how we can un-shit the bed, and I don’t hold out much hope that this whole bed-shitting episode is ever going to be brought to a lemony-fresh conclusion. I do, however, know who shit the bed, and have some sense of how frequently he shits there. Let’s stop shitting for a start."

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/003609.html

[Stephanie]

17. OMG that is too too funny!

LOL!

[ugarte]

18. Couldn't agree more

If the war is your fault to begin with, why is it honorable to continue?

[laundry_queen]

20. OMG! LOL, that is perfect!

Our first plan of action is to stop the shitters! :rofl:

[im10ashus]

43. LMAO!

That's great. Although the link doesn't work.

[KharmaTrain]

19. If We Provide An "Answer"...We Get The Blame

There is and shouldn't be a Democratic plan to fight this invasion. There should be for ending it, but not fighting it. Trying to play armchair general gives the Repugnicans a hammer to bash us with.

The Repugnicans got us into this mess...and we should let them drown in it. Let's watch them trash and flail...while we stand by and enjoy some :popcorn:.


We'll have to be the ones to clean up the mess afterwards...that job will be tough enough...and getting tougher.

[1democracy]

21. The only answer is what Bush could never do...

admit we were wrong and hand it over to the UN as peace keeper.

Unfortunately, Bush wants to dismantle the UN and has tried to prove it is riddled with corruption, exactly what the US occupation is so guilty of-- public funds and Iraqi assets plundered by US companies.

[KharmaTrain]

29. The Best Peacekeepers: Arab League

I know it wouldn't happen in this regime's wildest dreams...especially the neo-cons, but the organization with the highest regard in that area is the Arab League, and it'd be their presence/blessing that could cool things down quickly.

We agree that an international peacekeeper has to be brought in as an honest broker, but I don't see that happening while this regime is in power.

[confludemocrat]

37. So far Demos have a "we could do better message"

That didn't go over big in 2004. They will have that until a 2006 loss or tie convinces them to distinguish their message from Repubs on the war. Bush is using the war and it is driving domestic political destruction of the nation by Bush.

[Chango]

22. Chango's 10-point Plan for Victory in Iraq

1. Establish specific numbers for Iraqi soldiers and police required to provide their own security.

2. Establish specific numbers for U.S. soldiers that can be released as Iraqi numeric targets are reached.

3. Declare victory and announce the U.S withdrawal per the numeric schedule - not a calendar schedule.

4. Draw down about 10% of U.S. forces to show good faith that the process has begun.

5. Halt all U.S. offensive operations and concentrate on training, guarding, and patrolling borders.

6. Bring Iraqi recruits to the U.S. for training alongside U.S. recruits.

7. Involve other countries in the training in order to expedite it and get international support for the plan.

8. Eject U.S. companies and their personnel from Iraq. Turn over infrastructure projects to the U.N.

9. Relinquish all plans to establish permanent bases in Iraq.

10. Fire Rumsfeld to acknowledge that we've made some bad mistakes in Iraq.

[deliusmax]

24. Now that is a PLAN!

Those are great points. See? It can be done..
I would like to add:

Negotiate with the Sunni insurgents, openly aknowledge that they are not terrorists but people defending their homes against a foreign occupying force.

Negotiate a ceasefire for a six month period, offer to withdraw the majority of U.S. troops (80%?) if no major attacks take place in that period. The ceasefire is especially important during the elections that are planned for the end of this year. Part of the negotiations with the Sunni factions should focus on getting them to participate in those elections.

Then, after six months of peace and a truly representative governemnt: leave!

[Just Me]

52. I add three more points.

11. Flood with massive aid. Those poor people need basic sustenance.

12. Internationalize security (including training Iraqi police and troops). Our presence will only cause a persistent rebellion (i.e. they no longer have reason to trust us).

13. Immediate award of contracts to Iraqi companies to rebuild infrastructure. They need water, electricity and travel reinstated.

[leftofthedial]

23. leave and ensure that bushturd and the other criminals

and profiteers are made to pay.

problem solved

[necso]

25. It is walking into a potential trap to talk about "winning" a war

(except when this is done as a form of shorthand for a broader, deeper and more appropriate understanding.)

Wars are fought to achieve war objectives (if the war-makers are even roughly sentient) and are not some sort of contest or game with a fixed set of criteria for "winning" (like the most runs scored -- or the highest bodycount -- or knocking the "other guy" out).

And in the case of the war in Iraq, we have had changing war objectives (which speaks very poorly of the war planners), so it is understandable (that is, expected (and foreseen) in the circumstances) that our warlords and their flunkies would not care to discuss the problem in these terms.

But these changing war objectives are an important part of the problem, because, effectively, we started off to do one thing and are now trying to do another. (Indeed, I would argue that we lack any meaningfully specific and realistic war objectives even now, which promises near certain failure -- if not complete disaster.)

And not to belabor the well known history of all this, we entered this war to deal with a supposed threat from Iraq which simply did not exist. And when this lie was so widely exposed that only the willfully blind could still hold to it, then another objective "democratization" (which was already a secondary war objective -- but not one justifying an attack in the absence of a serious threat to us) was thrown up.

But the sort of secular, pro-US, pro-Israel, free-market based, liberal democratic state that the neocons talked of for Iraq was never more than a neocon delusion. And so we are left with a war objective that is largely just avoiding being worse off than before we invaded (which we could have avoided by not invading). And although "democratization" is still spoken of, all the other attributes associated with this "war objective Iraqi state" have been quietly discarded (except for the free market stuff of course -- we're talking neocons here.) (It should be noted that in terms of public support for the "war", some sort of "pay-back" objective plays a critical role, and this is evidenced in the carefully crafted propaganda that the neocons use. But this pay-back rationale is just as bogus as the WMD thing.)

Now, there is a certain logic in trying to avoid leaving a really bad mess in Iraq, one that could come back to haunt us. And it would be possible to discuss various options at length and in terms of specific war objectives, strategies and tactics, costs, the likelihood of success, and etc.

But this would be pointless. * and the rest of our neocon masters have no intention of doing anything (significantly) different in Iraq than what they are already doing. -- And they will be perfectly happy to continue this fruitless course indefinitely, because they aren't the ones getting wounded and killed -- or bearing the costs. (Indeed, the neocons have benefitted immensely from the "war" in political and economic terms)

You see, it was never really about war objectives with the neocons; it was always about political objectives -- and using every advantage and opportunity to achieve these (political) objectives. And the only "war" objective that really matters now to the neocons is keeping the war from getting in the way of their political agenda, the war-profiteering of their cronies, fostering the careers of their military and civilian toadies, flunkeys and lackeys, and etc.

And as of now, the war (in terms of our earlier objectives) is irretrievably lost. Moreover, given the counterproductive net effects of our efforts there (after the initial invasion), then why bother with creating new war objectives, etc, at all -- since the trend (and the expected outcome) is already clear. The neocons hosed it -- and they will likely hose whatever comes next. But they don't care and they won't change -- as long as this doesn't interfere with their looting, consolidation of power and etc.

And it is only by holding neocon political objectives hostage that one can hope to get the neocons to change course on the "war".

[EFerrari]

26. There is going to be a bloodbath in Iraq. Let's not fool ourselves.

We can delay it, maybe, but we can't stop it. Not after having pissed off every country with a significant troop strength.

The most we can do is return the assets American profiteers are stealing, get the hell out asap, and put this on the table at the U.N.

We won't do that.

[LightningFlash]

27. Impeachment's the only thing that will save it, period.

I don't really expect any solutions to be presented until the whole legal review.

[booley]

28. Get Rid of Bremer's order 39

Apparently the iraqis think they hav ebeen colonized and who can blame them?

before he left, bremer sold off the countries assets faster then an Enronian price hike....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. The Dems don't have a "solution" either. There isn't one.

There is no "mission" to be accomplished.

There is no "win" possible.

There is only more death and destruction until the Iraqis throw us out.

The politicians in both parties are both trying not to labeled as the ones that "lost" Iraq and the Middle East.

The "war" against the people of Iraq was lost the day the first GI crossed the border into Iraq.

[confludemocrat]

36. Bet no one can refute the post above this one (without lieing or delusion)

Sorry, gotta get out now. Get out and hope for our descendants sake that history will provide some forgiveness (but I doubt it, it shouldn't).

[MadHound]

31. Very very simple

Pack up the troops and their gear, load them up, and come home. Meanwhile, negate the contracts of all private contractors in Iraq. Also, we should apologize, admit that our invasion was a mistake, and pay out generous reparations to every single Iraqi. All costs of rebuilding Iraq should be borne by the US. And the entire top tier of the Bush regime should be tried in international court for war crimes, after the US impeaches his happy ass, along with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest of the ghoul gang.

Any and all neccessary peacekeeping troops should be made up of UN forces, and there should be no Americans included.

[Tinoire]

32. What they really want is for us to get over our anger against THEM

for their complicity in this war so that they can carry it on under a future Democratic administration.

Success is subjective for some, objective for others, and inside the "iron triangle" of military, big business, and politics success is measured by the ka-ching-ka-ching, not the liberation of peoples that the average American considers backward barbarians. It's the usual combination of money and an insensate American population. We are basically, predominantly still a nation willing to follow without question the politicians finger as he points to a demonized enemy, be it jap, gook, commie, terrorist, or raghead.

http://kateablog.blogspot.com/

[Stephanie]

38. THEM being the republicans, or the New York Times

NYT is extremely complicit - they fostered the WMD lies.

[Tinoire]

42. Democrats and the Democratic Party Machinery

of which I consider the NYT a part. And yes they are extremely complicit- the NYT as equally as the Democrats. With every passing day, this charade just gets sicker and more depressing.

[mmonk]

34. Say we won the war,

and get on with life. As long as we stay there, there will be those in Iraq that won't accept the government there. As long as we stay there, death tolls will continue to rise. As long as we are there, we won't have international credibility on world issues concerning human rights, torture, international standards on when its permissable for countries to attack each other, etc.. As long as we are there, the overall effects will hurt our economy, drain our treasury and hinder economic co-operation. As long as we are there, hatred for us will simmer and boil. As long as we are there, Iraqis will have to endure suicide bombings (something Iraq never had before in its history). As long as we are there, we will eventually exceed the number of people in prisons in that country beyond Saddam's numbers. Or we can still believe that they will become a peaceful western style democracy there while we build more military bases as a lauch pad for the rest of the region.

[MsTryska]

35. Well...here's my thoughts:

First get all those Contracting companies the hell out. What we spend on them can be spent funding Iraq's reconstruction done by Iraqi companies, and prolly get a hell of a lot more for our money and be doing the right thing.

Next thing discuss with the Current Iraqi government how they want to proceed with this country - do they want to Balkanize into separate areas, continue with one Iraq and mend there differences or what?

After deciding on that - If they want to continue as one iraq - help them to really get a police force and troops in place. But they need to be in charge - we're there to train and that's it.

Lastly let's get Corps of Engineers working on infrastructure - let's secure their water supplies, oil fields and electric plants while the iraqis build so that we can get the infrastructure really going, and this society back on it's legs.

When we've managed to put right what we've destroyed, we can pull out with a good conscience. Considerign the Construction involved - i don't see that taking more than 2 years tops.

The outside insurgents will need to be dealt with - but that should be more of a securing the borders thing. The internal insurgency should dry up, as the menfolk start having opportunities that make suicide seem not so appealing.

[Just Me]

39. I agree with your proposal with one exception.

I would propose that security (including training police and troops) must be internationalized. Our presence will perpetuate instability.

[MsTryska]

40. You make a very good point.

we could make it a UN mission, and have them train in Switzerland or something.

that would make added incentive for people to actually want to join up.

As opposed to "you could have american troops letting you die of dehydration in ditches whilst having your countrymen try to kill you whenever htey get the chance."

[Just Me]

50. A poster above suggested involving the Arab League.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

Another part of the plan has to include bringing in massive aid to provide those poor people the sustenance they need to survive. In doing so, the added benefit is less desperation --> less incentive towards violence.

[ComerPerro]

41. The beauty of the Iraq mess is that there is no answer

That's just the way they wanted it.

They spent the entire 2004 campaign conditioning the public to think that there is no answer that Bush hasn't already tried.

The Democrats say "build alliances, reach out" and Bush says "we've done that" (but he fails to mention that there might be more success if someone trys it who isn't an asshole).

The Democrats say "get the UN in and the US out", the Republicans say "The UN wouldn't help Bush, they won't help the Democrats" or "The UN is corrupt". (They negelct that Bush lied to the UN and his administratin is just as corrupt, if not moreso, as the UN).

And any time anyone even suggests bringing the troops home, all we hear is a chorus of "We can't leave now! Freedom is on the march!"


The Democrats don't have a plan, but to accuse them of not having any solutions overlooks one crucial detail, the one that the GOP wants you to forget about:

The party who started this war, the man who started this war, has no plan. Nothing at all. All they have to offer is "Stay the course".

[LiberalEconomist]

45. It is rather simple actually....

Reinstate Sadam Husein. It is his fucking country!!! Remember?

[Stephanie]

46. A jokester

Well why not - we've reinstated King George over here.

[dr.zoidberg]

47. Easy.

Step1: Pull out. This will cause the factions in Iraq to fight each other, if they already aren't.

Step2: Air it live on TV. Give each faction a color and assign points to probable objectives,then assign the number that each force has killed. Each side loses points for their dead. Can you smell the ratings:evilgrin: .

[More Than A Feeling]

48. We can start by getting rid of the people who got us into this

and don't even realize there is a problem yet. (or at least, pretend not to realize it)

Then we can threaten to withdraw immediately unless there is a NATO/UN force to enforce the peace. (No country wants to see Iraq disintegrate, but as long as we insist on being there, no other country/organization will be willing to shoulder part of the load)

Then, we cancel the military bases we are building there.

Then we establish a timetable for getting out.

Then we get out.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Just Me]

51. True. I would even suggest convicting those who perpetrated fraud,...

,...in order to exploit their own people and engage in an illegal war from which they have profiteered.

[Hubert Flottz]

49. Send Bush To Rule Iraq!

And have a Real Election and Democracy here for a change!

[Just Me]

53. .

:kick: