"Christians in this country are the victims of widespread discrimination "

[BurtWorm]

Chris Matthews apparently had a conversation about religion similar to ones we've been having on DU.

http://jeffrey-feldman.typepad.com/frameshop/2005/06/frameshop_stack.html


Last night on national TV, while most Americans were getting ready to listen to the President talk about Iraq, Chris Matthews filled a room with about 1,500 Evangelical Christians, two Jews and a Muslim. Next, he asked them questions about the separation of church and state, abortion, and morality. He called the whole thing a healthy discussion about religion.

What did America learn?

Well, we learned that America has very serious problem. We learned that Christians in this country are the victims of widespread discrimination so extreme that the moral foundation of our nation is at risk. We learned that the plight of Christians in this country, today is the same as the plight of segregated blacks was in the 1950s. We learned that our country is facing a battle like the civil rights battle to stop Christians from being excluded from American society. We learned that the repression of Christianity in this country is systematic, and has been going on for years. We learned that this country has become so committed to the rights of minorities that it has forsaken the rights of the majority.

Yes indeed.

[flakey_foont]

1. Whatever happened to the plan

for the Xtians to take over South Carolina???
they were going to make it an independent country,,,

[marmar]

11. If the fundies will all move there and appoint * their president...

I'm all for it. South Carolina is a small state, I'm sure the normal people who live there wouldn't mind moving.

[Island Blue]

15. Hey now,

I'm a SC ex-pat and once in a while I have to go down and visit relatives. I'm afraid if they turn it into it's own Christian nation they won't let me back in.

It's funny though because I graduated from the University of South Carolina (and yet I can still read and write ... imagine) and it's probably the only place in the world where 85,000 people get together on Saturday's in the fall and yell "GO COCKS' at the top of their lungs. Now that's a good Christian slogan!

[FreedomAngel82]

48. LOL

"Go cocks"??? LOL!

[MadHound]

97. LOL, now let me channel my inner Lisa Simpson

"I will NOT be a Gamecock"

"Go Cocks"? All I can say is DAMN! Cock has been phallic slang for centuries, one would think that SC would have recognized the problems. Oh well:shrug:

[China_cat]

16. Yeah...if we could afford to, we'd have already done so.

[knitter4democracy]

2. In the immortal words of brian k. reese:

I'M SICK AND TIRED OF WHINY CHRISTIANS!!!

Sorry to shout, but that's how it was said long ago in that Contemporary Literature class we were in. Long story short: Evangelical Christian college, new prof assigned the New Yorker, kids complained about the fiction piece and labelled it porn (:eyes: whatever), and the administration banned the New Yorker as pornography from the campus (those of us who kept it could've been expelled if found in our possession).

Christians who can't stand up to persecution (and I mean the real kind) need to work on their faith. Buck up, stop whining, and get a grip!!!

[FreedomAngel82]

49. If they want to know

what real persecution is like read about Jesus and the apostloes. Now those guys went through it and didn't whine about it! Stoning and heads cut off and don't forget what Jesus himself went through. And all for these selfish whining people.

[knitter4democracy]

86. Exactly!

That's why it gets so annoying! They whine about not being in power, when they are, and they whine about not getting everything they want all the time, which would be ridiculous.

Gah! They just need to get over it.

[Bouncy Ball]

3. 1500 Evangelical Christians, two Jews and one Muslim?

How could the Evangelicals even CLAIM to be victims with a straight face with those kind of numbers?

Oh oh oh I'm a Christian and I'm SO persecuted and victimized! Oh help me, help me, they are CRUCIFYING ME!!!!!

Give me a fucking break. I'm a Christian and I have NEVER ever been discriminated against because of it. If anything, I suspect I've been given favor in situations where people know I'm a Christian.

Good googly-woogly, these people will stoop to any low.

[Zhade]

59. Yet another reminder...

:yourock:

[Swamp Rat]

65. Sounds like the beginning of a joke

:D

[JHB]

88. And that was SUCH a representative sample...

It pretty much by definition leaves out Catholics, which are the largest Christian denomination in the US. And despite their noise, I'm pretty sure that evangelicals are still a minority of Protestants too.

[NorCalDem]

4. Jon Stewart had a great line about this....

"You've been in power in Constantine, remember him, it was in like the 1300's"

The Daily Show (w/ Jon Stewart) is my medicine :woohoo:

[okasha]

27. That was the 300's.

[NorCalDem]

39. sorry, my bad

[Jade Fox]

5. Wide spread discrimination does not happen to 80% majorities....

It simply does not happen. This is a fantasy of victimization. Far-right
Chrisitians have learned to use the theory of victimization to explain why
they are prevented from imposing their agenda on everyone.

[dissent1977]

64. It happened in South Africa

Now this is a very, very different case than South Africa of course, don't get me wrong.

I also think it is absolutely ridiculous for these people who hold all three branches of government to whine about being discriminated against.

I just wanted to remind you that majorities can be the victims of discrimination, not to defend these people.

[madeline_con]

6. " 1,500 Evangelical Christians, two Jews and a Muslim ..."

walk into a bar...

Seriously. Another case of extremitosis. Because reasonable people don't appreciate "Christian" extremists trying to turn this country into an Inqusitionesque theocracy, Christians are being persecuted.

Reasonable Christians and Muslims need to get louder and take political control of their religions away from the lunatics who've hijacked them!

[LightningFlash]

13. Exactly!!!!

:rofl: :rofl:

These people ARE the minority, and are simply using voting machines to inflate totals bogus double votings, invisible votes etc.

Nobody prosecutes christians!!! What total bullshit. We all have our own religions. We don't like to have some crazed version of christianity, dominionism or whatever else smashed down our throughts like we don't even exist!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

And for fucks sake, we are one of the most religious tolerant countries in the WORLD. Regular christians have no problem living here.

[madeline_con]

25. "..some crazed version of christianity, dominionism or whatever .."

Here's the Evangelical "Christian" ideology, random picks from the first page of the google search: Evangelical Christian?


"We believe in the resurrection of the saved to everlasting life, and of the lost to everlasting damnation."

http://www.christisalive.org/

(this one has soothing music as the page opens)

--------------------------

"The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) clearly and repeatedly states that followers of other religions worship demons.


Thus, they see few differences among Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, Wicca, Neopaganism, and hundreds of other religions. All are viewed as involving demon worship that will prevent their followers from being saved, and will lead them directly to the pits of Hell."


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_ev.htm

-------------------

Religious Tolerance Dot Org :puke:

:spank: That's a Bible he's holding...

[Bill McBlueState]

120. you should read more of that site

religioustolerance.org is stating facts about evangelical christianity, not advocating it. There's also plenty of interesting, neutral coverage of other religions there.

[dissent1977]

67. We are not one of the most religious tolerant countries in the world

Ask any Muslim, and they will tell you that there is plenty of religious intolerance here.

[dogday]

7. I have never had to check my Christianity at the door

I don't know why they feel so persecuted.

[madeline_con]

14. "I don't know why they feel so persecuted. "

Real Christians aren't. These people who scream about 'persecution' are those who are against the rights of anyone besides the narrow-minded bilbe thumpers in their little group. They'll tell you about love and throw you right into the fire if you don't repent, you sinning heathen! :crazy:

They wouldn't know Christian if it bit them in the ass.

[dogday]

20. I believe that, what they practice is far

from the Christianity I have always known. These people are wolves...

[madeline_con]

26. "These people are wolves..."

In lambs' clothing.

:rofl:

[TimeChaser]

44. What is it with these people and their discriminatory talk...

... about wolves? :shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Yep

They only proclaim that so you'd feel sorry for them and they can get their rightwing legeslation passed to take away everybody else's freedoms.

[cynatnite]

8. I asked my rw mom where in this country is christian oppression

She couldn't name one.

[tanyev]

9. Go figure.

I've been a Christian all my life and I never knew I was the victim of discrimination because of it. Huh.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. Of course they are discriminated against.

After all, many of our elected representatives have been Satan worshippers, Commander Cuckoobananas always gives praise to Allah, atheists have bookstores all over this country, "Christian-looking" people are always profiled, and court witnesses must swear on the Koran.

When will these idiots realize there is a huge difference between their personal beliefs and forcing them on everyone else?

[Xipe Totec]

12. 1,500 Evangelicals? What about us Christians?

Why weren't we represented?

That's what I'd like to know.

:sarcasm:

[ismnotwasm]

17. Horse pucky

At least in my experience. I rarely reveal to my mostly christian co-workers that I am not, because I don't wish to get into that discussion which would either insult or make them uncomfortable. They are very nice people for the most part and certainly don't push religion, but mention their pastors and church, and church camp and ministries etc. as frequently as they feel like it.

[Taverner]

101. Yes, Evangelicals are discriminated against...

That's why we have had so many Athiest presidents, and Athiest members of congress...

And that's why its illegal to put posters of Jesus on billboards, or stickers of fish on cars.

yes, Christians are SOOOO FUCKING persecuted.

To Fundies, not being able to rule us all with an iron fist is persecution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Well, that explains why all the candidates shun churches.

Yeah, right. The Christians are so "persecuted" that politicians dare not make a display of their Christianity...oh, wait.

[KharmaTrain]

19. You Can Be Jew For A Day...

I'll gladly swap skins for a couple days...let them be Jewish...especially in their inclusive little coven. Now this person won't look any different, just wear a star of David and let the folks around town know he's one of "them".

Or maybe we can make him an honorary black. Let's do this one real nice. Let's get him a nice car...his own, paid for. Then let's turn him loose in his black skin in a white suburb...especially near a shopping mall. Let's see how persecuted his xtian faith is then.

Or, even better, let's make him a mullah for the day. While they'd rather have the moolah, let's put him in a beard and then send him through a security check...a TSA checkpoint would be a regular riot.

What do you expect from people who have perfected the ultimate con over centuries? Their game is fear and hatred...without them "god" can't do his work...he can't save or bring retribution or demand total subservience.

[nikraye]

21. Let them be gay for a day...

[TrogL]

63. That's "queen for a day"

[madeline_con]

28. "...without them "god" can't do his work..."

And he's always broke. Send $$$!!

[BurtWorm]

40. Excellent post!

:toast:

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Something I've always wondered

How can black people be republican?? I don't get it. The republicans now days don't think of the blacks like Lincoln did. :shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

68. Call It Stockholm Syndrome

It's where the captive identifies with the captor. To some "making it" means being "just like white" (a black friend of mine uses that great term)...that somehow to beat "whitey" at their game, you somehow have to be one of them.

They forget they're black, just to be "one of the boys" or get this feeling that they're somehow on an equal level...based strictly on the rich white boy's rules...money and acceptance. Somehow this makes them either a bigger black or better than.

Look at the Repugnican Blacks and there's no pigment. But then there's also no soul, no heart and no common sense.

[knitter4democracy]

87. Just like that 30 Days show last night

That was frickin' awesome! I'm thinking of getting a tape of it. They sent him to Howell, for goodness sakes!

[HockeyMom]

22. Who is discriminated against in this country today?

Gays. When your daughter won't come with you to look for apartments to rent and says, "Mom, if they see me and see I am gay, they won't rent to us. Go by yourself." Her saying that really brought it home to me. Unbelievable in this day and age. Of course, I took her with me. I went with the attitude just let them dare say something to ME.

Do Christians have to worry about anything like that?

[FreedomAngel82]

54. Aww

I'm glad you took her with you though. And yeah, if these people want to know what persecution is then they should be gay for a day.

[yellowdogintexas]

23. "persecution" by their definition is the fact that they can't

prosletyse in the public schools, or pray at public functions, or force their own version of things on everyone else.


the removal of offically sanctioned public prayers from the school systems is blamed for almost as many things as Bill and Hillary are.



I too have been a Christian all my life and have never been discriminated against because of it. I have had it insinuated to me that I am not "saved enough" or "worthy" because I am a Methodist, rather than Baptist or Church of Christ, but that's doctrinal bullshit and I just don't bother with arguing about it anymore.

[madeline_con]

29. "... they can't" ...prosletyse in the public schools,

... or pray at public functions,"


Two items for starters: "Christ on Campus" and the invocation before the innauguration. Thay can and do. :(

[yellowdogintexas]

122. Christ on Campus is an organization. That is OK

the use of prayer at functions such as inaugurations is not the kind of thing I mean, and I probably should not have used that phrase, sorry.

I am talking about the morning prayer over the intercom in the public school or directed by the teacher in the classroom, with Bible readings, songs and prayers, or the big prayer we used to have before every highschool basketball game (although if they were praying the gym wouldn't fall down before the game was over, it might have been appropriate!!!LOL)

I went to public school in Kentucky before the Supreme Court ruled on this. When the Baptists and the Church of Christ kids led the devotionals, there were ardent prayers for those who "had not seen the light" etc. When the Methodist kids led the devotionals, we offered silent prayers, believing strongly in the keep it to yourself admonition in the New Testament.

I was highly offended by the kids who thought they were superiour to me because they were more "saved" than I was because I was a Methodist, and more holy because they were dunked in a pool instead of sprinkled. Still am, in fact.

These types of devotions are what the ruling covered. The fundamentalist/superevangelicals have been crying "persecution" ever since this was ruled into law. The Republican absorption/manipulation/whatever of these groups has made them think they can scream about it even more.

So that is what I was really getting at...I don't care if a public school has 100 little religious clubs on its campus as long as they are privately directed, out of class time, and no one is forced to be there.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. I know how you feel

I'm Church of Christ myself and have never had any problems. I no longer worry about other people unless they come to me and want to talk to me about it themselves.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. BS. Pure and unadulterated.

I think there's a certain segment of Christianity that really seems to *require* a feeling of persecution. Perhaps it helps them feel closer to Jesus?

No, Christians are not in any way, shape or form persecuted in this country. Being told you cannot stomp all over everyone else is not persecution. Not being allowed to insist on (your) prayers being offered by gov't officials or teachers is not persecution. Having to tolerate the mere presence of people who think differently is not persecution. And I say all this as a Christian, albeit one whose theology would no doubt cause most of the Christians in question severe heartburn at the least.

Did you really have the stomach to watch that crap last night? I couldn't do it.

[madeline_con]

30. "Perhaps it helps them feel closer to Jesus?"

It is written. Everyone's going to persecute, but bear that cross. It's part of being in the club, like a secret handshake.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. That whole thing is so distasteful to me

When so many in this world truly do live lives of horrible want or illness or sadness, when my life is truly so blessed... how do these people manage the feat of such out-sized arrogance?

[madeline_con]

33. I have no idea....

where it comes from. Total misinterpretation or something. It used to be sinners welcome. Now it's burn in hell sinner. :shrug:

Jesus has left the building...

[bunkerbuster1]

104. Some "Christians" just can't give an inch.

It pains them to see that in a lot of metro areas, there is a great deal of genuine acceptance of other religions, and that there ARE some restrictions being placed on their imagined "right" to be obnoxiously in-your-face about their beliefs when it's ON THE PUBLIC DIME.

Truth is, they do have a point, if you think that they were entitled to this exalted position in the first place.

(I try not to think like these wackos, but I'm surrounded by them here in Red America; it's not like I've a choice.)

[FreedomAngel82]

55. All you have to do

is compare what Jesus and his apostloes went through and compare it to what they go through here in this country. I remember reading earlier this year that when Bush took out Hussein the first people to flee their country was Christians. I wonder why. You don't see them fleeing the country here.

[Cha]

32. Oh, Jon Stewart had the Funniest Show

on that "discrimination against Christians in America" thing.

He said ..paraphrasing.."What a shame about the Christians being discriminated against..if only they could have a President or maybe 43 in a row!"

It's a freakin' bunch of hogwash..why are the fundies always trying to be victims?

[lildreamer316]

34. Hey...what religion is JS anyway?

..or is he atheist/agnostic? Just wondering.

[Cha]

36. I'm betting that Jon

is Jewish so I don't know if he's kosher or not.

And why would you think he's either "atheist or agnostic"?

[FreedomAngel82]

56. I think he is

I think he's Jewish. On Howard Dean's last appearance he mentioned being a Jew in the 80's.

[lildreamer316]

60. Because I seem to vaugley remember

him dissembling (disassembling?!)to some guest about it, saying something like he didn't claim to know what was "up there". Just wondering if I had missed an "official" declaration.

[dissent1977]

69. He is most definately Jewish

He jokes about it all the time.

[secretpoet]

37. I'm pretty sure he's Jewish

[KamaAina]

35. Well, that's the honest truth...

...as long as by "this country" they mean China.

Otherwise, well... :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Zenlitened]

38. It's true! There are only half a dozen christian churches in every town.

Can you believe it? There are buildings in towns all across America that AREN'T christian churches! Oh, when will the persecution end? :cry:

[Bake]

41. Persecuted, my ASS!

Let's see: there they sat in their multi-million-dollar megachurch buiding, in their fine clothes, with nobody telling them they couldn't assemble there anytime they felt like it ...

With "In God We Trust" on every dollar in their fat wallets ...

I drive down every Main Street in America and I see what? First Baptist Church, First Presbyterian Church, First Methodist Church, you get the picture. What I don't see are any armed soldiers keeping people out of the churches.

These WHINERS are complaining because SOME PEOPLE don't want to let them DICTATE EVERY DAMN THING THAT HAPPENS in this country. And believe me, they honestly think they are being persecuted. You could see it in the faces on Tweety's "Church Tour." (What the hell was THAT all about????)

If these WHINERS want to know about REAL persecution, let me suggest they breathe the dank air in the catacombs beneath Rome. Let me suggest they line up to crucified upside down, like the Apostle Peter was, according to church history. In fact, let A SINGLE ONE OF THEM pick up a copy of Fox's Book of Martyrs and read about the grisly end that came to Christians back in the first and second centuries (AD/CE), back when the Romans KNEW how to persecute people.

These people are SOFT, LUKEWARM WHINERS. The same people about whom Jesus spoke when he said, "Because you are neither hot nor cold, I will spew you out of my mouth."

Persecuted, MY BIG ASS.

And yes, I AM A CHRISTIAN, and sometime student of church history. But I've never been persecuted because of it.

Bake

[Solly Mack]

42. Muthafuck why don't they come down from the cross already

These theocrats attempt to impose their will and their so-called morals and beliefs on others...then have the bloody nerve to claim they are persecuted by others.

I'm sick of the entire lot.

[Bake]

45. They wouldn't know the CROSS if it bit them in the ass!

"What? Nobody told me it would involve PAIN."

They think it's just something to wear on their lapels.

Bake

[Solly Mack]

46. You make an excellent point

The cross is like the flag to them....more real that what either represents.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. Oh yes

One Sunday my preacher talked about that. How people now days wear the cross like it's a flag and how it really was in Jesus' days. Back then it was humiliation and a lot of pain and suffering. I used to wear a cross necklace myself but after that lesson I took it off. Now I just wear an eagle and a star.

[Cats Against Frist]

43. You have got to be fucking with me

Right -- because they can't indoctrinate everyone with their fairy tales, they're "discriminated" against. What a bunch of horseshit. If they feel any ridicule, from the rest of us, it's because the rest of us don't like having sex on plastic sheets and drinking Nada-Coladas with Aunt Doily, over devotionals, on a Saturday night.

And we don't want to hear about it, either.

I think I'm discriminated against. I worship my own made-up gnostic Church of Thomas Jefferson, Freemasonry, Jewish mysticism, Jesus and the Buddha.

Bet they wouldn't let me put my Buddha Jesus on the coins.

HELP! I'M A VICTIM!!

[FreedomAngel82]

47. Uh yeah right

I'm a Christian and I can tell you from my view and life that it's not the case. I'd say it's harder to be a Jew or Muslim now days. Not a Christian. It's even harder being a democrat now days and a Christian. But a Christian a lone? Nope, don't think so! Unless you count not being able to put the Ten Commandments on public property (/sarcasm the last sentence). Why only two Jews and one Muslim??? What did they have to say?

[Miss Chybil]

50. I guess this means no more Christmas, right?

Not even a happy holiday? Damn. I wonder what I should do with the plastic tree in my attic? I sure don't want to get strung up for it.

[Zhade]

58. That's patently laughable bullshit.

Just because we won't let rightwing Christians impose their beliefs on our freedoms, that doesn't mean they're "oppressed" or "discriminated against" - or "persecuted".

Christians are a majority in this SECULAR-BASED society (not a Christian nation, guys, sorry - you don't know history). They are not being held down - although, of course, to Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists and related christofacists any obstacle counts as oppression in their warped eager-to-be-a-martyr mind.

It's the exact same mindset as an al Qaeda suicide bomber's zealotry. The exact same.

[Outrider]

61. A message to all Christians who have been discrminated against

I'm a Christian. I've never been discriminated against because of my religion. I challenge you to prove to me that you have been discriminated against because of your religion.

Of course you can't, because you aren't being discriminated against because of your religion. If you are actually being discriminated against it is because you are a fucking asshole who is unpleasant to be around.

[Tsiyu]

62. The title of your post has nothing to do with the discussions on DU

Come on, BurtWorm. You are more intelligent than this. Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

There is absolutely no reason for any Christian to feel persecuted in American society today..

They worship as they wish and are not hindered when they express themselves ( oh, if only some were.)

How is it that the great minds of DU cannot see that the discussions of religion on DU have nothing to do with Christians in the larger society, but are concerned with how some DUers disrespect Christians
on DU ? What happened to all the intelligence?

As I just posted elsewhere, name a progressive or liberal cause and there is a Christian church somewhere in America doing something to help. Christians protest war, the death penalty. Christians ordain gays and women. Christians feed the homeless. Christians visit the sick, the AIDS patients and those in prison.

If you want to base your arguments against Christians on reality not prejudice, open your phone book and tell me how many Christian denominations you see there.

Answer that question, and you will see why lumping all Christians together under one "evil" or "out-of-touch' or "fundy" label does not make one appear intelligent, reasonable or rational. Quite the opposite.

Separate your feeling about the issue, respect others even if you do not respect their beliefs, and act like an adult. That's all folks are saying - even agnostics like me.

Would you tell your boss he or she was delusional if he or she was a Christian, as many tell Christians on DU on a regular basis? No professional, mature person with any manners would.

[dissent1977]

70. I don't understand why are attacking BurtWorm

Nowhere in the original post do I see the terms "evil", "out-of-touch" or "fundy". Nor do I see him accuse Christians of being "delusional". He was merely stating what happened at the event he saw on a television.

Now I agree that sometimes people on DU tend to unfairly lump all Christians together, and should sometimes be more tolerant. But I do not see any intolerance in the original post.

[Tsiyu]

73. I was not attacking BurtWorm. How did you get that?

I will attack his assertion that the program he referenced has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the discussions on DU.

If we are going to bring up these discussions, then we must bring up the substance of those discussions. Did BurtWorm make the remarks I mentioned? No.

But he referenced threads where those statements or attitudes were made. What happens on DU is not the same as what happens in America at large. That's my point.

What was stated on that program has nothing to do with discussions here calling for respect of Christian DUers. It's like comparing apples to oranges, to use an old cliche.

Or did I misread where he compared the two issues?

[dissent1977]

76. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying

[Tsiyu]

77. it's cool

I was upset yesterday, much calmer today about this issue.

I was merely offering proof to back up what I was saying. I haven't presonally read any Christian-bashing out of BurtWorm.

Have a great night :hi:

[BurtWorm]

91. I said the discussions were similar, not identical

And it's very interesting to me to note that Christians and others in this thread are in perfect harmony on this issue. That's exactly what I was expecting, based on my experience with Christians on DU.

[Tsiyu]

92. They aren't in any way similar

Christians on DU are only asking to be tolerated and not made fun of and lumped with fundies, while the program dealt with Americans at large. Apples and oranges, but juggle on...

[BurtWorm]

93. Let's see, on the one hand we have Christians claiming to be discriminated

against in American society, and on the other we have a charge that Christians are the object of bigotry at DU. Not identical subjects, to be sure, but not similar even?

It's not a big point anyway. I didn't post this as a continuation of that other discussion. I posted it as something of interest in itself.

[Tsiyu]

95. No, not similar at all

I can't find any proof ( ohh, science....)that Christians are discriminated against in America. No where will you find that proof. It is a false claim made by hate-filled people who wouldn't know persecution if it was right in front of them ( as it is regarding gays, women taking birth-control, etc).

There IS proof of bigotry here, though only by a handful of posters. If you'd like I can pull up threads where Christians are called mentally ill, etc. There is PROOF.

If you posted this as something of interest only, you should not have related it to threads asking for tolerance here. I have never heard a Christian DUer claim persecution in America at large. NEVER. So why compare them? If asking for a bit more respect and tolerance on DU is now claiming vast persecution in America, I am just not thinking clearly, because to me, it just doesn't follow.....:shrug:

[BurtWorm]

100. Okay. You're on.

Please post evidence of bigotry against Christians on DU.

[Tsiyu]

109. Okey dokey

This thread is full of veiled and not-so-veiled insults to people of faith, without actually discussing what the OP said:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3958140

or how about this one implying all Christians are racist?
(Check out the poster who claimes that "If Jesus returned today, Christians would kill him." No qualifier. All Christians would kill Jesus?):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3958140

This thread is just oozing with religious tolerance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1589745


A search for Christian threads in the last month in GD revealed 10 that were locked. Hmmmmmm......do a search for that and you'll see. Why were they all locked? Tolerance? I'd love to post some of the "Christians breed like rabbits" or "Christians are mentally ill" etc. posts but can't access those threads. The ones who do this know who they are. They are a small minority and hopefully they now realize they will be called on it.

You know yourself that there have been many anti-Christian posts here, BurtWorm, even if you pretend not to. It doesn't matter to me whether it's acknowledged or not by you or others. What matters is that it stops, because it only hurts us as a community.

Bash fundies all you wish. I agree with that bashing. The ignorant sonofabitches deserve it. But remember they are only one offshoot of Christianity. That's all I'm saying and I( an agnostic) -or the progressive Christians here- really aren't being unreasonable in asking for a bit more maturity.

[BurtWorm]

110. I agree that some posters are careless explicitly distinguishing between

right-wing and left-wing Christianity. From context, however, it ought to be clear that they do make that distinction, from the fact that the object of their "attacks," if you will, is the sort of Christian who votes for Bush because he thinks Bush is "godly," or who thinks nothing of lying about her intent to put Creationism on par with evolution while running for a schoolboard position, or who goes on Hardball to complain about how discriminated against "Christians" are in the US. Now perhaps Christians on DU believe that lefties shouldn't attack right-wing Christians for holding such views. I haven't met too many here who haven't wound up tombstoned. Most Christians I have dialogued with on DU agree that right-wing Christianity is a threat to democracy.

[Tsiyu]

111. Of course progressive Christians cannot stand fundies

You and I know that. But respect for others' beliefs is how I distinguish myself as a liberal. I don't agree with the practice of most faiths, and I haven't seen any Christian DUer support the far right. Like you said, they get the granite prize and they should. NO ONE should support what they are doing to insert their radical beliefs into our nation's laws.

If you haven't seen me bashing them, you haven't read too many of my posts. I'm just saying that the attacks on progressive Christians must stop or we will turn away many progressive folks who could help our cause. That's not too hard to agree with, is it?

A poster with over 10,000 posts, who has had a lot to offer this board, was ready to abandon DU because of the "Christians are racists" thread. Is it not worth a few moments to qualify an anti-Christian post with "fundy" or "right wing?"

If we were discussing any other subject we would expect specifics. That's what intelligent people do. Specify exactly what they mean. Most old-time DUers will know that an anti-Christian post means "fundy" or "right wing." But someone perusing the boards, without any history of this place, can come away from here seeing gross intolerance when we don't thoughtfully take the time to qualify our statements. Can you agree with that?

[BurtWorm]

112. I don't necessarily respect other people's beliefs.

Do you respect a person's belief that a man should be the head of a household? I don't. Or that the United States always acts in the best interests of its citizens and the world? I don't. Or that the war in Iraq is a just war? I don't. And frankly I'm not too keen on the belief that Jesus is coming to save the souls of believers in a battle against the forces of the Anti-Christ, either. I think it's kind of a ridiculous and even dangerous belief, being one that has given certain American Christians license to thrust themselves and their religion deep into our national politics out of desire to put American military might on Jesus's side when Armageddon comes.

And again, I don't see anyone attacking progressive Christians on DU. I have seen many attacks, if you will, on bizarre Christian beliefs, but I don't attribute those attacks to offense in the culture wars. I think of them as defense against the steady assault on secularism and free thought that right-wing Christians have kept up for--well, forever.

Do casual perusers of DU get the sense that we're intolerant of Christianity here? If they do, that's their problem. I know freepers think we're intolerant of Christianity here, because even the Christians here tend to be intolerant of freeper Christianity.

[Tsiyu]

114. So qualifying a statement is too much to ask, then

You can have the last word after this if you wish. I have never suggested that we not debate the beliefs others hold that we find offensive. But there is a difference between debating beliefs and belittling someone who is a Christian, Wiccan, whatever.

I think making women wear veils is retarded. But there are Muslims on this board who post that they are Muslims, and if someone suggested to them that they have to fix all the wrong Muslims, or belittled them for believing in the Koran, that might be stepping over the line into accusation, prejudice and insult rather than debate.

That's my opinion and it will not change.

have a nice day. I'm going swimming....

[BurtWorm]

117. Could you please point me to a specific post

where a DUer belittled a Christian for his or her beliefs?

[beam me up scottie]

113. "This thread is full of veiled and not-so-veiled insults "

Looking for examples of tolerance, are we?
How about this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=291&topic_id=1872

"This thread is just oozing with religious tolerance"

How about this:

"Again, I apologize for the idiots, and I hope Christians and people of all faiths will come to DU to post and that things will change so that they feel free to express themselves." ?

or maybe this:

"Personally, I think that the Science-Worshippers are naive." ?

or this

"The fact that seemingly intelligent people try to put the two issues into the same basket tells me that they aren't the intelligent folks I assumed they were"

or

"I imagined the Christian bashers as pimply faced adolescents posting away"



A bit more maturity you say?

[Tsiyu]

115. Well, at least you're reading different viewpoints. Good for you!

I hope some of what I wrote sinks in. I do apologize for the idiots. They are turning away people we need. And I was not bashing ANYONE for their religious views, but for the way they treat others. If you can't see the difference, so be it.

Have a nice day. I'm going swimming....you go on and have the last word and enjoy yourself bashing me now. You seem to enjoy that activity....:freak:

[beam me up scottie]

116. The NEXT time you want to speak for me,

I suggest you ASK ME first.

I don't recall non-christians on DU electing you to be their spokesperson so that you could grovel and beg for forgiveness behind their backs for something they're not even guilty of, not to mention calling them names.

You don't know the meaning of the word "respect".

[really annoyed]

118. The beginning of your post

Is a smear against atheists, yet you are claiming bigotry against Christians.

I can and WILL respect somebody's right to practice their religion, but I refuse to accept something I see as false.

BTW, some of us "science" atheists aren't very scientific at all.

[NAO]

66. Christians have been in control of EVERYTHING since 314 A.D.

as Jon Stewart astutely observed on The Daily Show of June 28.

It was funny Stewart mentioned that - right now I am reading Gibbon's monumental "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (8 volumes, 1776) which describes how Christianity was a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire and how it effectively destroyed Western Civilization and took us into the Dark Ages for 1,000 years.

The Christians burned libraries, destroyed schools of learning and philosophy, burned heretics, and seized control of the government, after which things went downhill fast.

Christians in the first few centuries were ignoring major problems because they thought the rapture was going to happen any day! This is in the 300's and 400's! They did not want to bother repelling the barbarians, because Jesus was coming back and the world was going to be destroyed by fire, so why bother?

I think what we need is a Freethought movement similar to what the US had around the turn of the 20th century. Robert Ingersoll was touring the country, lecturing on secularism and exposing the claims of revealed religion to be false.

Unless something breaks the stranglehold of religious fundamentalism in the US - and in the world - I think we are going to continue the slide into Theocracy and destruction.

The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition
http://freethought.freeservers.com /

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org /

Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org /

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

Evolve Fish - Your One-Stop Shop for Freethought Materials
http://www.evolvefish.com

[progressivebydesign]

71. If I was in a room with 1,500 evangelicals I'd kill myself. n/t

[undeterred]

72. Discrimination isn't just a subjective experience

If its happening, there should be evidence for it and not just anecdotes and accusations. I would consider the following to be evidence:

Are people being denied jobs, housing, or admission to schools on the basis of their affiliation?

Are they being paid less for the same work than people who do not belong to the same group?

Do they lack access to health care that is available to others?

Are their places of worship being shut down by the government?

Do media refuse to report news related to them?

Does the legal system make it more difficult for them to get a fair trial?

Are crimes committed against them taken less seriously by police than crimes against other people?

Are they being illegally detained and held without charges?

[PsychoDad]

78. I don't know about "evangelicals"

But you've just described women, gays, pagans and muslims. :(

[undeterred]

81. and blacks

way over-represented in prison and on death row

[bling bling]

74. Were there any black christians in the audience that agreed?

The white-right-wing-fake-Christians who feel their plight today is the same as those of segregated blacks in the 50's need to take a walk through the Lorraine Motel museum in Memphis, watch a documentary on the plight of blacks in the 50's or educate themselves in some way because they are embarrassing themselves with their sheer naivety and simple-minded-ness.

[NMMNG]

75. WTF?

We learned that the plight of Christians in this country, today is the same as the plight of segregated blacks was in the 1950s.


You'll have to excuse me but I cannot even begin to take this statement seriously. :crazy:

What has Chris Matthews been smoking?

[AlienGirl]

79. They need to believe they're persecuted to justify what they want to do

which is, persecute everyone else.

If they can convince themselves they are under attack, in mortal danger of being denied basic civil rights, or as a fundie dorm-mate once claimed, about to be sent to concentration camps, they can justify making a pre-emptive strike.

So they project onto non-Christians and liberal Christians the intent that they themselves have.

Tucker

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Yes. Evangelicals at the Air Force Academy have been discriminated

against by people who actually had the nerve to complain when the Evangelicals tried to force their views on 'em.

Pro-Lifers are discriminated against because they can't decide for the rest of us that life begins at conception... or that birth control should be illegal.

"Concerned Women of America", "Focus on the Family" and other puritannical zealots are discriminated against because they can't stop other consenting adults from looking at pictures of naked people having sex.

Of course, if a gay couple is allowed to get married, that is "discrimination" against the total strangers who can't deal with what is none of their business in the first place... and who usually also happen to be fundamentalist, right wing Christians*.

Whenever people have sex out of marriage, get divorced, or use birth control, it is discrimination against the folks who would like to see those activities punished by jail time, death by stoning, etc. etc. etc.

And lastly, lets not forget the egregious discrimination done to Christians who are not allowed to have their prayers forced upon children of other faiths in public schools, and not allowed to have their sectarian displays of religion endorsed by the federal government.

Why, they're right- this anti-Christian discrimination is clearly out of control!!!

* Please note the use of qualifiers. When I speak of "Christians", the easily irked would do well to note the context. Like Jimi Hendrix said, I aint talkin' 'bout your ol' Lady. 'Kay?

[anitar1]

82. I am chimimg in late here, but am proud to say

that I am not a christian.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. I'm happy you're happy, but....

Really. I personally want to be crystal clear- when I bag on the evangelical, right wing Christians who are currently on a theocratic rampage in the United States, it is in no way meant to impugn the integrity of everyone who believes in Jesus, attends Church, calls themselves "Christian", or even just digs the excellent poetry and wisdom of the Sermon on the Mount ("What's so special about the cheesemakers?"... sorry, couldn't resist a little Life of Brian reference) or anything of the sort.


Seriously. Several of our good Christian DU members have quite recently complained that they feel tarred with the same brush as the out-of-control fundies, so right now I don't think I can over-emphasize that distinction.

:)

[Tsiyu]

90. Thank you!

BurtWorm still has not answered me, so I will assume he realizes that the substance of that program and the substance of the discussions here calling for respect and tolerance are two entirely different issues.

BurtWorm just always seemed too intelligent and rational to engage in such foolishness.

[Hidden Stillness]

84. Embarrassing and Stupid

With every pronouncement these extremists pretending to be Christians make, they push themselves further and further away from the sane mainstream of religious thought, and get themselves into "Tom Cruise" territory. They were always offensive to most Christians, and now they offend even the definition of "discrimination," a word that many people have a right to use, and that these people don't. I always wonder about so-called religious people who spend all of their time thinking about secular things, the way these "fundamentalists" do--is this the extent of their "religion"? I am a Christian, deeply religious, and I never in a million years would use stupid language like that; instead I would refer to how the male "church" oppresses women, against God.

[chalky]

85. But the author of this article asks some very important questions!

"Can anyone think of a day in our national calendar when Federal and State offices are closed because of a Christian Holiday?

Can anyone think of one President or Vice President, or any member of the President's cabinet who was a church-going Christian?

Can anyone name a Representative or Senator in Congress who has not been forced to resign once he or she became openly Christian?

Can anyone think of a state level representative who openly practices Christianity?

Can anyone think of a state or federal judge who has been appointed to the bench or elected despite being Christian?...."

Those poor downtrodden Christians! And when one of "those families" moved out of "their side of town" and into a house down the street from us, some hooded heathen burned a PENTAGRAM on their front yard! It's an outrage, I tell ya!

[H2O Man]

89. Religion ....

"This afternoon it's not our intention to talk religion. We're going to forget religion. If we bring up religion, we'll be in an argument. And the best way to keep away from arguments and differences, as I said earlier, is to put your religion at home, in the closet, keep it between you and your God. Because if it hasn't done anything more for you than it has, you need to forget it anyway."

-- Minister Malcolm X; Detroit; April 12, 1964

I've been attempting to avoid the more histrionic debates concerning theism and atheism, because in large part, I do not believe they are sincere attempts to examine differences in a way that could be helpful to anyone. But I think the OP here is sincere, and that the poster is attempting to make a point for a good reason. So, at risk of having Malcolm say, "But didn't I warn you?" .... I'll add my two cents.

No matter if we are theists, atheists, or agnostics, we face a common enemy today in the United States. More, you might be black, brown, red, yellow, or white .... and you face that same enemy. You could be male or female; heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, autosexual; you could be employed as a professional, be a laborer in a factory, have two part-time jobs, be disabled, or be unemployed; and you can be tall, short, fat, skinny, or any combination of any one of these things .... and we all still have something in common: a common enemy, right here in America.

That common enemy takes the form of the Bush administration today. We see it in the Dobsons, the Falwells, and the Robertsons. Its tactics are confusion, fear, anxiety, mistrust, and apathy. Its tools include ignorance and hatred. It does not oppose the OPers atheism any more than it opposes my water rituals; today I will sort through a large load of rocks I was given last week, for 42 stones that I will use in a sweat lodge this weekend. I will be praying for a family of friends, who are going to the Black Hills for this year's Sun Dance. This family, which ranges from youngsters to elders, and spans four generations, poses no threat to our society .... yet for many years, the ceremony they are taking part in was illegal. Both they and I will be praying for the innocent children in Iraq, who suffer from the madness of the Bush administration, and the religious hatred of those Dobsons, Falwells, and Robertsons, and the ignorance of the shrinking number of Americans who support the war.

Yet everything is not black or white. When I pray, much the same as my family of friends, I must examine myself .... and look for the areas where I harbor hatred, fear, anxiety, and ignorance. Because the truth is that even though the administration is the greatest threat to peace, because of their darkness, I must confront the darkness in myself in order to confront the darkness in others.

And that same thing can be applied here on DU. We can participate in debating games, and pretend that there isn't some hostility towards theism and atheism on these threads. And we can be very silly and invest in foolish debates on which is worse, and take an ignorant pride in our scars from old wounds.

Or we could recognize that we have different manners of interpreting the meaning of life, but that we are as closely related as my family of friends. And we can recognize that we face a common enemy, and that the enemy is using a brand of religious hatred and intolerance against each of us individually, and all of us collectively.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to an old man.

[Touchdown]

94. I cut to the chase on this the other day on yet one more

"Christians are victims of bigotry on DU" thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3958140

Although I found some support, the OP and her supporters still didn't get it.:cry:

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GeekMonkey]

106. I call BS

Disagreeing with your interpretation of the fantasy novel is not an attack on YOU, it's an attack on the silliness of religion.

I guess while you're praying you should pray for a sense of humor and a spine.

This whole 'victimized christian' act is sooo old and sooo full of baloney.

I mean, cmon, be real for just a minute!

[Gelliebeans]

124. I thought your response

in that thread was wonderful Touchdown and I only hope that people would see that. :thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

96. 1,500 wolves, two lambs and a hen announce wolves are the victims of

widespread discrimination...

[SomewhereOutThere424]

103. yeah but...

Little red riding hood wasn't 'attacked' by reverand mcdonald. Wolves have had their share of propoganda and good thinking people at places like this should give it a rest, eh?

[mondo joe]

105. No, I won't be giving it a rest while evangelicals do attack the civil

rights of others.

Thanks!

[SomewhereOutThere424]

107. err?

I was talking about your comparison of wolves to evalengelicals, not the religious nuts themselves. I'm pagan and my parents are both fundies, so I know what you're getting at, but it's unfair to put wolves on their same level. Just as much as it was for bush to compare them to terrorists.

Yet if you want to just randomly point the finger at anyone who you think disagrees with you...fine by me :)

[mondo joe]

108. Wait, am I now guilty of saying wolves are predators?

[GeekMonkey]

99. It's not hard to sell new delusions to already delusional people

If someone really believes a magic man in the sky wants them to vote republican, then they are 'pre-qualified' to believe all kinds of silly shit.

[really annoyed]

119. Right....

Try being a Christian in the Middle East...

Then get back to me about your "persecution" complex.

[BMG]

121. They are so dumb its just not even funny anymore.

How can they say that, and then go and persecute gays and lesbians in the way they do?

In my opinion; they deserve to be excluded (fundies) and discriminated against for being such moronic bigots all the time. They make other peoples life hell, protest against the most asnine things imaginable and then go and say, "HEY YOU CANT DO THAT TO ME! I AM SPECIAL!".

These are the only group of people I hate and I feel obligated to be bigoted against, there really is no saving them either, they are fanatics and will go out of there way to make everything "Their way". And I am sure Jesus would probably hate them too.

I once saw a fundie at my school demand to talk to the principle about some bullshit about her son INSTANTLY because she was a christian, even though other people were waiting.

[patrice]

123. They wouldn't be if they'd stop trying to evangelize everyone.

Their ideas of service seems to be to strong arm you into being like them. There seems to be an awful lot of Christians who Hate Gays and are Racists. This bothers me. It appears to me that Christians whine a lot about what victims they are, instead of looking for real victims to server. To some Christians it seems all of the problems with the 10 Commandments, not to even mention the One Commandement of the New Testament, is about everyone else except themselves. Everything seems to outwardly directed about them to me.

Some people should consider working for others, being quieter and really patiently listening more; that includes so-called "church fathers" in some of these HUGE church cartels we see around now.