A small suggestion re: new Abu Ghraib photos from the wife of a soldier.

[peacebaby3]

I see many threads on here about the new photos of torture at Abu Ghraib that are about to be released to the public. I know there is a concerted effort to make this information very high profile. First, let me say I completely support the fact that what went on was horrible and criminal. It should be made public (and should have been originally).

I also want to point out that my husband came home after serving over a year in Iraq about a month before the first Abu Ghraib photos were released, but had he been over there at that time or now, I would have been very worried for his safety because of the justifiable anger these photos will have on the Arab world and especially people in Iraq.

I have to be completely honest and tell you that if he were over there now, I would have very mixed emotions about these photos coming out. On one hand, the anti-war protester in me is gung ho to show the world the disgusting practices of this administration, but the wife of a soldier in me would have been very upset that my husband's life was going to be put in extreme danger when he had nothing to do with these atrocities. Granted, there are some POS, demonized people who wear the US military uniform who fully support all that is going on, but there are also a lot that do not.

Believe me when I tell you that I am not wishy-washy about my feelings regarding this war and this corrupt administration. I was on the streets protesting the war before and during the time my husband was serving in it, and still am today. I have been spit on by other people in the military, my husband's life was threatened once because of my activities, etc. I could go on and on about events that happened over the last couple of years, but I still would have had very mixed emotions about the photos.

My basic point to this is if you are going to hand out posters and really talk up these new released photos (which I support), then please, please, remember who is really going to be hurt and have their lives endangered because of the abuse by this administration. Make sure you emphasize those points as well. Be very careful and sensitive when you are talking to family members who have loved ones serving over there now because this will be very difficult for them and some of them don't deserve it.

Thanks.

edit: typo

[Just Me]

1. I understand your concern. Our focus should be on the administration.

After all, it IS this administration which intentionally created the conditions for the torture problems, past and present. They should be convicted for so doing.

[bpilgrim]

33. please post images here -------- ---------- --------- > LINK

http://media.GlobalFreePress.com

peace

[Vickers]

2. If the administration would have addressed this when it FIRST occurred

then it wouldn't have been an issue.

Then it WOULD have been a case of a few bad apples (and I am a veteran, I know that there are bad folks who serve), instead of a case of coverup, disinformation, feet-dragging and lies.

[pansypoo53219]

16. even better

IF IT HADN'T HAPPENED TO BEGIN WITH.

more shoopoo from bush.

[Coexist]

3. Have you read the response by General Clark?

http://www.securingamerica.com/?q=node/184

"Stop Blaming the Troops - Investigate the Real Culprits of Abuse"

[peacebaby3]

10. Thanks. Yes. I worked on the General's campaign in my state during the

primaries and I am a member of WESPAC. I completly agree and thank him. I think he is one of the few folks out there that can empathize with the troops and really cares about us and our families.

I was and still am a big supporter of him and of Howard Dean.

Although my perfect candidate was Kucinich. I'm very liberal, no yellow dog in me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. No yellow dog?

I thought that 'yellow dog' was in reference to "I'd vote for a yellow dog before I'd vote for a Republican!". Am I wrong?

I'm strongly liberal, but I'd wholeheartedly support a moderate or even conservative dem to get our majority back. And I always felt that Clark was on the liberal side of moderate. He was always high on my list.

[Jackpine Radical]

21. I think you're right, EvilDUer.

In my lexicon a yellow dog is a die-hard Democrat; a blue dog is a conservative Dem.

[peacebaby3]

29. Here where I live a yellow dog is more moderate. I'm in the deep south.

Some of the folks that used to label themselves yellow dog Dems have switched to the repukes. That's what I found when I worked with the state Democratic party back in my college days.

Makes sense though because many of these are Dems from back in the dixiecrat days and although they don't really fit with the party much anymore, they refuse to vote rep, but they are definitely not liberal. We still have a few of them around.

Just my take from my personal experience.

I agree, I think Clark is much more liberal than many of the other '04 candidates, but not as liberal as Kucinich and I agreed with Kucinich on most all issues.

I supported Clark completely (time and money) up until he pulled out of the race. I still send money to WESPAC and unless something changes, I would support Clark again.

[smoogatz]

40. The term goes all the way back to the Reconstruction era

post Civil War. Yellow Dog Democrats were Southerners who claimed they'd vote for a yellow dog before they'd vote Republican--because Lincoln was a Republican.

[Zodiak]

73. Ends my confusion

Thank you for that....I was always confused why the best damned liberal doctor I ever knew said "I 'aint no yellow-dog Democrat" and I found out later that "yellow-dog" was liberal in modern, yankee usage.

He didn't seem like no blue-dog, that's for sure.


I guess us progressives are really "no dogs" thus far. I certainly do not want to be a Post Reconstructionist backlasher or a "conservative Democrat." I'll stick with progressive and be proud of it. Liberal if you are "nasty."

[liveoaktx]

76. Baloney. Not here in Texas-it's well known Yellow Dogs are libs

Blue dogs are the "Repub lite".

[peacebaby3]

77. I don't live in TX, although my brother-in-law is from Wichita Falls, but

here where I live, yellow dogs are the more conservative members of the Democratic party and go back to the days of the Dixiecrats.

Someone pointed out earlier the historical significance of the statement of the term "yellow dog Democrat."

Not baloney here where I live.

[Iris]

4. The fact that these photos put your husband's life and the lives of all

the troops in danger is exactly why the abuse must stop. Why don't the conservatives understand this?

Keep your chin up, peacebaby; I know these life must be excrutiating for you these days.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. That's the point. It's not the photos that are endangering the

troops. It's the policy condoning abuse.

Stop that policy and the abuse, and the photos, go away.

[seabeyond]

5. i agree and i dont have a loved one in iraq

i too have been a bit quiet on these photos. i think it is important they get out, and i think we should have seen them all a while ago. i think the administration should have been pinned with the horrors. i am not even a big advocate of going after the few soldiers, but the administration. i feel they are much more responsible and they had a greater obligation in taking care of these soldiers that it didnt happen. and i believe our administration encouraged and asked for this from our soldiers

i am also bothered by the pictures, because those in the picture, the innocent victim will be on display. and that sickens me and in my view is just another terrorizing and rape of the victim

yes this is a sensitive manner

i appreciate your post

[whistle]

6. Over 500 investigations are going on over Abu Ghraib prisoner

...abuses and some 200 have already resulted in prosecutions, all of which have been against lower ranking military personnel. The top two commanders who were responsible for Abu Ghraib received promotions!

Now, if the rank and file military people know something which will nail the bastards who are responsible for the policies and orders that resulted in these and countless other abuses, they need to speak up. Otherwise, the grunts will be the ones facing prison terms and possibly worse consequences, while the top brass will retire with huge pensions. Fuck the esprit de corp shit!

Have the military families encourage their soldiers to tell all that they know regardless of who they think they need to protect. A great movie specifically about this topic of military responsibility is Stanley Kubrick's 1953 film "Paths of Glory".

<snip>
PATHS OF GLORY behind the scenes - 166 kb

SUBJECT:
Generals send soldiers on suicide mission.

NOTES:
Though based on a onetime best selling novel, no studio was interested in making Paths of Glory until Kirk Douglas agreed to star in it. United Artist then agreed to a $935,000 budget.

The film was shot in Germany at the Geiselgasteig Studios in Munich. The two main location sites, the chateau and the battlefield, were only a 30 or 40 minute drive away.

Kubrick spent a month supervising the digging up of the battlefield and used 600 German police as extras. The wooden planks in the trenches doubled as a track for the camera's dolly shots.

While the novel began and ended with the three soldiers who are tried for cowardice, they don't make their appearance until much later in the film, Kubrick having shifted the emphasis to the officers.

<more>
<link> http://pages.prodigy.com/kubrick/kubpog.htm

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. The world needs to know the truth

and only then can we begin to fix this mess.

I think most of the world understands that there is a big difference between Bu$hCo and the rest of us poor slobs.

What is important is how we respond to these pictures. If justice is served and the people at the head of this cabal are removed from power, then the Arab world will have a few less reasons to hate us. Right now the hate that some of these people have for us is well deserved.

[u2spirit]

13. I disagree slightly

You said

I think most of the world understands that there is a big difference between BushCo and the rest of us poor slobs


That may have been so before Nov 2004. Even if Ohio was stolen (Likely), Shrub probably still won the popular vote. The world saw a perceived majority of Americans supporting this jackass and his minions. No one to blame but ourselves at this point.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. Unfortunately, what you say is probably true

that is why it is even more important that we respond to the overwhelming evidence of these crimes, by having a full independent investigation and indictments issued to bring these criminals to justice.

If the top leadership of this country is not brought to justice, then I it will be the end of us.

[unhappycamper]

8. You are correct.

It is a dilemma: on one hand the truth comes out; on the other our brave soldiers are placed in more peril.

At the moment, it seems the only way to stop this evil occupation and fascism at home is to shed light on the truth. How do we wake up the sheeple?

I pray for true Americans around the world. The shit is about to hit the fan.

[uppityperson]

19. Good message. It is a dilemma but I agree they need to come out.

I am really really sorry for everyone that has been and continues to be hurt by the administration. I place the blame directly on the administration but never expect them to accept it. What happened at Abu Ghraib, the increasing hatred of the USA is their fault. Releasing the photos and videos will increase hatred, but it needs to be done and the blame placed squarely on the administration.

[asjr]

9. I completely understand you. The only ones

who will be hurt by the release of photos will be our military in Iraq and elsewhere. When the first ones were released there was much gnashing of teeth and rhetoric from our congress about this. Mainly by Democrats. But no one has been held accountable except for a "few bad apples." I will never be convinced they did this all on their own. Upper echelon people knew it was happening and condoned it. And gave instructions to do it. In the meantime, our soldiers will be the ones who take the brunt of Arab disgust with us.

[DistressedAmerican]

38. Not True! The First Set Resulted In Two Attempted Rummy Resignations.

He is VERY LIKELY to go down this time. He will end up being to focus.

You seem to have given up hope that we can ever win against these bastards. Don't give up so easliy. This is a crucuial victory for the anti-war movement. m Do not try to undermine it with defeatism.

[Hubert Flottz]

11. I'm a veteran and I never thought I'd see American soldiers do

anything so disgusting and UnGodly! I'm sickened! I think the "MORAL MAJORITY" should see what they and their War pResident are responsible for! It might wake them all up before it's too late!

Bring Them On!

[IrateCitizen]

12. ALL soldiers end up doing disgusting and ungodly things in war...

That's one of the most basic things that war does to people.

Atrocities were commonplace in the US campaign to "pacify" the Philippines following the Spanish-American War. During the trial of one Marine Major, Littletown Waller, a witness described how a General Smith had given them orders to burn and destroy everything they saw, and when asked about the age limit for killing, Smith replied, "Anything over ten."

And just look at the things that went on in Vietnam. In the words of Stan Goff, a Vietnam veteran and 23-year soldier who served in some of the most elite units in the Army, including Special Forces and Delta Force, the only thing that was out of the ordinary about My Lai was "that those guys got caught." He describes talking to helicopter pilots who told him that they "just loved greasing them."

This war is nothing new with the atrocities being committed. The only real difference is that atrocities are being carried out against those who have been captured, as opposed to just those in the field.

ON EDIT -- Perhaps I shouldn't have said "all soldiers", but instead said that such events become somewhat common in war. War is something that makes it incredibly difficult for people to hold on to their humanity. Still, some manage to do so through everything.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. "atrocities are being carried out against those who have been ...

captured"

There it is!

[Solly Mack]

17. I understand what you're saying.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

22. We know whose to blame

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfailed,, the whole dirty lot of them.

We support our troops!

[quiet.american]

23. Well said. I've had the same thoughts.

Some of the recent headlines on the board, though I'm sure unintentionally, have trumpeted the release of these photos with a tone that evokes perhaps the release of Madonna's new album.

You've expressed the same concerns I've had far better than I could. My admiration goes out to you and your husband for your activist and military service on behalf of this country.

[DistressedAmerican]

41. I Assume You Are Refering In Part To My Posts. THIS A MAJOR VICTORY

for the anti-war movement. I AM EXCITED about their release as they may go a long way to ending this war and bring the troops home.

Apparently you find that distasteful. I find widespread institutional torture far worse than distasteful.

I will continue to "trumpet" the release of these photos and do everything I CAN TO MAKE THEM AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC.

[quiet.american]

50. Whoa -- chill out. You're reading too much into my comment. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

52. Maybe A Little Apology For Belittling The Efforts Of Us Trying to Stop

the torture would be in order?

Your comparison of my organizing efforts to publicizing a Madonna album are offensive.

Out of line.

This is an important issue. You should not be attacking folks that are working hard for justice.

[quiet.american]

53. You may have perceived it that way, yet it's not what I said.

And there is no "us" and "them" here. We're on the same side.

[DistressedAmerican]

56. Since I Was One Of Those Posters You Are Refering To,

please tell me how this comment does not belittle these organizing posts:

"have trumpeted the release of these photos with a tone that evokes perhaps the release of Madonna's new album."

Exactly what did you mean by the comment? If I am misreading, I'd like to know how.

[quiet.american]

60. First, here's the full quote:

Some of the recent headlines on the board, though I'm sure unintentionally, have trumpeted the release of these photos with a tone that evokes perhaps the release of Madonna's new album.

Note I'm addressing the tone of the headlines, not the organizing, not the work, not your efforts.

In the context of the thoughts of the author of this thread, my point is that the tone of recent headlines on this board about the upcoming release of the photos did strike me as not quite right. For example, if I were drawing attention to this outrage, and we all agree torture is an outrage, I might have written something like this:

More photos: Take action to stop the torture

If you're willing to take a look at the headlines regarding these photos in the context in which the author of this thread is writing, perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from. If not, okay.

There is no disagreement from me that the torture policies of this administration is shameful beyond words, cruel, dangerous and that it must be stopped. My point is, in our zeal to do so, we sometimes need to look at how we're getting our message out there, too.

[DistressedAmerican]

62. I'll Be Looking Forward To Your Posts On The Issue...

[quiet.american]

69. Alrighty, and keep on keeping on. n/t

[peacebaby3]

54. Actually, I wasn't referring to any particular post or person, but

I do find your comments in this post somewhat arrogant and distasteful, but you have every right to make them.

I understand your excitement about holding * and his admin accountable, but I also realize that some innocent American soldiers will pay the price and for that I am very sad. And as the wife of a soldier that served over there for a year, I would have been very concerned for his safety. He hates * and this entire admin. He hates this war and he never committed any atrocities. There are others like him that will have to pay.

I'm not for suppressing anything, but I think it is important that we as a liberal group of people make sure we frame our comments regarding the release of these photos to include the fact that this will put innocent soldiers in harms way. It's a fact and we should acknowledge it and remind people that they shouldn't have been there in the first place and then they have been abused by this administration and now the failed, criminal torture policies condoned by this administration have placed them in harms way again.

I swear sometimes I feel as if I have to decide if I am going to be able to continue because I feel as if I am forced to decide between trying to end this horrible war and get rid of this horrible administration or love my husband. I feel like I have to constantly defend myself from both sides! I started this post just to bring up the fact that we as a humanitarian group of people should not forget this point, not to condone or suppress anything.

I guess if you do not live in my shoes, you just can't understand the dichotomy of this situation.

I support your cause. Good luck.

[DistressedAmerican]

61. First, I Was Not Replying To Your Post.

Second, I am curious however, what about my comments you found "arrogant and distasteful"? I was trying yet again to rally some support for this important anti-war issue. What is either arrogant OR distasteful about that?

Third, I agree that we must be careful to associate these actions with the administration. However, those that committed the acts deserve our contempt as well. Lyndie England, Chip and the other from the first batch were punished as they deserved. Any others that can be identified as being involved should also be punished.

I will make an effort to direct my comments at the command structure.

I do understand the dichotomy of your situation. However, I believe that any action to end this war more quickly are saving lives not costing them. That is where I disagree with the original post.

Any thoughts on how release of these photos further the long term goal of ending the war and bringing these folks home?

I know we are on the same team. I did not attack your post. I see where you are coming from. You never said we should not release them. Just that we should be careful who we blame the actions on. Could not agree more.

I responded to an attack on my related posts which belittled the extensive efforts I have been putting in to the effort. Those comments were uncalled for.

[peacebaby3]

65. First, I apologize. I thought you were responding to me and that is why I

the part about being arrogant, etc.

Yes, we are on the same team and if you will read my reply in a post just a couple down from this one, you will see that I also completely agree with your position on holding those soldiers responsible.

I think that we almost completely agree and I appreciate your effort and I mean that sincerely. I am just promoting a proactive stance and a realization of all of the aspects of these photos.

I was also trying to be very honest about the heartache I know it will probably bring some military families and how I would have been torn by their release. That's all, I never would support suppressing this information, ever.

Thanks for your thoughtful and non-hostile reply.

[DistressedAmerican]

66. I Love When we Work These Things Out. I Suspected It Was Mainly Confusion

Most disagreement here start over something like that.

Your point is well noted indeed.

We know how is ultimately responsible for the torture and need to make sure that the damage done is to them not the women and men serving HONORABLY.

I will do my very best to stay on message with my campaign. I would feel horrible if it was taken as an attack on "the troops". Not my intention at all.

We have to end this war. We are clearly on the same page. Great chatting...

Keep up the message. It is important.

DA

[peacebaby3]

71. Thanks so much. I really do like working things out and I also really

appreciate you not becoming hostile when I accidentally replied to you aggressively in error. Very considerate of you.

I am a little surprised at some of the hurtful, sarcastic comments a few have made on this thread. I think it hurts worse when you think you are dealing with people that are on your side. I'll get over it and move on, but I admit I am surprised.

Again, thank you. You could have escalated the situation but instead chose to react in a very noble way and it has been noted.

Keep up the good fight and thank you from the wife of a soldier for thinking of us in your struggle for justice and to get all of the troops home.

[mikelgb]

24. solution

take all photos and replace the heads of soldiers with top administration hawks like cheney bush rumsfeld et al. gets the atrocities the attention they deserve and places the blame squarely on the administration. . .The soldiers in the photos should be disciplined as well.

[peacebaby3]

49. I appreciate that, but I am not saying to allow those in uniform

responsible for the torture to get off free either. They should be held completely accountable for what they did even though I believe that they did it based on what they felt as pressure and orders from higher ups in the system. I don't by the "few bad apples" theory, although it does take an already troubled person to do what these people did and obviously enjoy based on the photos, but this was a systematic problem based on a failed and incompetent policy.

The only thing I am trying to make a point of is that innocent soldiers will pay the price for what this administration has done and continues to do and I think that we should definitely remember that when we talk about the issue because we want to win the "war" of words regarding the issue and I think we should make this a very important point when we discuss the photos.

Maybe start out by saying, "These are horrible photos of the torture that was accepted and overlooked by this administration. They created an environment that breeded this type of behavior and looked the other way when they saw evidence that it was going on and in doing so they have risked the lives of every soldier serving on active duty for our country because they will be the ones that have to pay the price for the horrible truth about this war and the policies of this administration."

The American soldiers serving in Iraq and other places in the Arab world are the face of America. It doesn't matter who they are or whether they support this war, it just matters that they wear an American uniform. I know quite a few that hate this war and hate this administration and they and their families will pay the price just like those who support it. I've seen several of them post to this board. We recently had an Iraq vet that thanked us for keeping him sane. I just want to make sure we don't forget those soldiers will be in more danger as well.

I hope I have articulated myself well enough for everyone to understand my point. I am not advocating covering up anything or letting anyone off, I just want everyone to think about all of the consequences - that's all.

Thanks.

[katinmn]

25. I understand. The Bush policies that allowed, even condoned,

torture have put the troops at risk.

In a moment of honesty, McCain cited that when the first photos were released. He said that future generations of soldiers will pay for this.

My thinking is that we should loudly reject the policies for that very reason.

We need to remember that 96 percent of the world's population doesn't live within U.S. borders. The rest of the world has not kept the torture under wraps like our government has. It's being discussed everywhere but here.

By not discussing it, people in Iraq and elsewhere must believe Americans are in quiet acquiescence. And when we have elected officials say stuff like "they are well-fed" it must really outrage people.

Thanks, peacebaby, for this thoughtful post.
Nominated.

[insane_cratic_gal]

26. As a Wife to a Soldier myself

I do understand and have lived with that same guilt. My Husband too has been shunned because of my criticism of this Administration.

I think we forget how ugly war is, when fear is a predominate emotion, other negatives come into play.. Like hatred, cruelty, arrogance. When the leader of the country does not apologize for anything or take responsibility for anything, his moral value is more then lacking it's bound to show up among our troops. When shit continuously floats down hill, no one calling the shots at the top will take responsibility.

When we send civilian contractors over to Iraq without their security clearances and background checks completed( I use to work of OPM.. it's fact). Your allowing for any psycho who hates muslims to get over there.

What we forget as a community of people, 90 percent of these guys are just trying to stay alive long enough to kiss their wives and children good night. Most of them suffer with their own guilt, yet struggle with their duty to their men. Military strips a person of individualism, and reprograms them to think in terms of troops.

But I understand you being torn, I've often walked in those shoes, so you aren't alone. I'm considering joining a military families speak out
http://www.mfso.org/

Or another group just to lend my voice to theirs, so people stop assuming that everyone who is military is a Chimp supporter.

[frictionlessO]

27. Peacebaby I'll do everything I can to remind people that its the policies

not the pictures that is to be hated and disgusted with.

I know where you are coming from and you have all my empathy... every last drop of it.

We will blame those who are responsible, this admin. I will not mention any individual soldiers in any of my posts about the upcoming pics but I will have a lot to say about the low life PNAC slimeballs.

Maybe we can get some of our graphics people here at DU to replace any soldiers faces that appear on the photos with admin officials??

Yours in solidarity,
fric

[peacebaby3]

59. Thanks fric. Your post is much appreciated. n/t

[Individualist]

28. Don't blame it on the photos

It's the atrocities committed on prisoners that bring danger to those not involved. Suppressing release of photos will not change the fact that Iraqis are aware of what is being done to prisoners. IMO arguing for suppressing release of the photos is the same as arguing for suppression of facts about what is going on in Iraq.

[peacebaby3]

39. You need to re-read my post!

You are accusing me of something I haven't done!

Think and read before you make a post.

[Individualist]

42. You're the one who should re-read

your own post, particularly paragraph three. Your post is about release of the photos.

[peacebaby3]

58. I never said anything about not releasing the photos. In fact, I said I

supported their release, but I also have concern for the welfare of innocent soldiers that will likely face more hostility because of the release of the photos.

As I said in an earlier post, it's a great dichotomy for me regarding this issue and I guess impossible for some to understand because they don't have the same life experiences.

Take care.

[jbnow]

30. Abu Ghraib should have been closed

after the first batch, we owed everyone that, including our soldiers. I can't imagine the hatred it evokes in Iraq, as it would for people anywhere it occurred. That was my thought again when I heard more photos were coming. That we still are using this place adds further horror to response new photos will evoke.

Pictures really are worth a thousand words at least. In them I saw the torture and Geneva convention policies and questions in the documents we read some time ago. How fine they tried to draw those lines... and that carried down, as it would.

I worry too, the face of America looks so ugly and those serving now will be a target of those so enraged. They have a right to be enraged.
I am so sorry we went there and then that we planned so poorly without the troops or system to protect the country we invaded. These pictures exemplify the horrors of the dishonor we bring. It's just a shame the time lapse between the photos will reignite it all and Abu Ghraib is still there being used.

I can imagine (not as well as you) the fear it will bring families of those there now. I am glad your husband isn't, but having been there I'm sure your heart is with those families and soldiers. Our hearts also go out to victims and the loved ones of those abused there.

It is a conundrum.

[unhappycamper]

32. IMHO, the ENTIRE FUCKING GULAG SHOULD BE CLOSED!!!

Including the rumored U.S. warships, if they are detaining people.

/rant off

[MountainLaurel]

46. Never should have been opened

Abu Ghraib has a long history as one of Saddam's torture prisons where he "disappeared" dissidents.

[noamnety]

31. I'm torn

But like others have pointed out, in the end the policy put people in danger, not the photos.

If we "shut up and support the troops" (to mimic the RW talking points), the result is likely to be dragging out the war even longer, which puts more troops in danger, as well as putting more Iraqis in danger.

If we expose the atrocities of the administration, we have a chance to erode support for the war, which will help to bring the troops home sooner.

I understand exposing the photos may increase the danger temporarily, but decrease it in the long haul, as we begin to withdraw troops earlier. I don't want to put anyone in danger, but we know that's not an option at this point.

Pick any other prison in the world where atrocities have happened - unrelated to the US. Do you think the atrocities at those prisons should be covered up, or exposed?

[Solly Mack]

36. Showing the photos does support the troops

to my thinking

Exposing the corruption of the Bush administration supports the troops.

Exposing the lies supports the troops.

Demanding Bush be held responsible supports the troops.

Holding soldiers who violate the GC and American law (torture is against federal law as well) responsible supports the troops.

The best way to support the troops is to tell the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan. Anything less is a disservice to everyone involved.

[DistressedAmerican]

34. If Our Troops Are Endangered By This, It Is Other Troops That Are To Blame

Circulating the information about what is going on is crucial. It will end this war more quickly. That will save lives in the long run. That is not considered in your post. Publicizing these photos is the best thing we can do to save lives in the long run.

I understand what you are saying. But, we bear no guilt for this. Those committing the abuses are. Our circulation of the photos does not in anyway make us accountable for the ill will they engender.

If we do not want our troops endangered by these actions, these actions must stop. The only way to make them stop is to make them public.

Please join with me in the "NO MORE EXCUSES! END THE ABUSES!" campaign:

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

[nashville_brook]

35. it is the nature of sexual torture to defame the torturer as well as the

tortured. this way, our soldiers who were ordered to do this are less likely to stand up for themselves b/c their acts are so vile and irrational in a civilized, non-war-torn hometown.

like the complete fascist prick he is, rumsfeld will not take responsibility. for ORDERING his soldiers and mercenaries to use these tactics. the administration is DEHUMANIZING *our* soldiers. our husbands, brothers, wives and children.

and then they put a pregnant whathername on the stand and blame her, like it was all her idea... and not the guy who knocked her up... and she wasn't acting under orders... and she's the low-hanging fruit on the chain of command. holy cripes! who let them get away with that! the judge wouldn't even allow her guilty plea. how many headlines did this grab? hopefully these photos will give us a chance to re-examine her situation. it sickens me that she will spend time in prison for bush's crimes.

what we are going to see in these photos (if it's anything like what i've read about) is a culture of grotesque sexual humiliation. take what we've seen and turn up the volume. our soldiers' role is to crack the DOMINATOR's whip. to forget all they know about dignity and humanity. these regular Mo's that have been rounded up were/are huminiated to extract names. it's a frat boy's game. it has no security value. and the administration will not take responsibility. isn't this a war crime? to me, this is no different than mengele's nazi experiments. they are experimenting with sexual huminiation as a means of torture and finding that it works pretty damn well since the torturers can't even stand up for themselves b/c of their shame.

[w8liftinglady]

37. My son is in baghdad now

..and I totally support the release of these photos.I resent the position this administration has placed our soldiers in.I abhor the human rights violations that are taking place as we speak.I want my son to come home asap,and in one piece-and things are already about as bad as they can get.This was done on Bush's watch,with his consent.I want him to burn as the worst example of an American.

[Tsiyu]

45. My thoughts are with you

:hug: I hope he is home soon, safe and sound :cry:

[Individualist]

48. Well said, w8liftinglady

Suppression of truth, whether photos or words, will only prolong Chimp's war. I hope your son will return safely and soon.

[mopinko]

43. sorry peace baby

you smell funny to me.

[peacebaby3]

64. And you stink. n/t

[Tsiyu]

44. As a mother of someone who served in Afghanistan and Iraq

I have to say that the blame does not lie with those exposing the abuse; rather it rests on those who allowed the abuse in the first place.

People in the region are angry at us and they already know about this abuse. Don't you think every person who was tortured and then released has spread word of their treatment far and wide? Do you think these pictures are really going to reveal things to them that they don't already know? They lived it. We are just now learnning of it.

In my opinion, releasing the photos will help Americans see why the Iraqis and others hate us so much. And if they see Americans decry what is being done in our name and demand accountability from our leaders, that might be a good thing?

Our soldiers are already targets for their rage and
frustration. Blame this on "Bring it on Bush," not on people who want to expose the truth.

Crimes should not be hidden so that people will be safer. Crimes should be revealed so that the criminals will be prosecuted.

[Catrina]

47. Very thoughtful post, peacebaby

I have mixed feelings also about the photos and videos.

I watched the hearings last May, (2004) and remember that after viewing those pictures, even Sen. Lindsey Graham was horrified enough to directly address Cheney, who had tried to stop the hearings. I remember his face, he was clearly shaken when he said to Cheney 'Let us do our job, Mr. VP, we're talking about murder and rape here'.

There was discussion at the time about whether to release the pictures all at once, because 'they will eventually get out' and get it over with. Rumsfeld admitted, under questioning, that there was 'worse coming'. The Nick Berg beheading video ended the hearings.

The fact is that even before the original pictures, it was well known in Iraq that detainees were being tortured ~ Robert Fisk, eg, was reporting on it after talking to family members of detainees. And as they were released, some of them journalists, AIRC, the word was already out. However, Americans in general dismissed the information as 'anti-American rumors'. Then the pictures proved them to be true.

So, while we here weren't aware of the atrocities, I wonder how many of our troops were victims of the anger generated by the already known policies of this administration. The rest of the world didn't need the pictures.

Gonzalez, Sanchez, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Woflowitz, Gen. Miller (who reportedly told his troops to 'treat the Iraqis like dogs otherwise they will not respect you') ~ all are responsible for this stain on the US and for any harm that may have come to the troops as a result of their policies. They DO need to be held accountable because they are planning right now to build more prisons in Iraq and to expand the gulag in Guantanamo Bay, including the adddition of death chambers. Torture must be profitable.

Still, logically, I know that it is the troops who have been targeted and will take the brunt of the anger both in Iraq, and here, when the administration refuses to allow those really responsible to be held accountable, and uses them, once again to pretend they are 'dealing with it'.

So, I guess I'm torn ~ personally I never needed to see pictures. I remember reading a report of a woman named Noor, (before the pictures) who had passed a desperate note out of Abu Ghraib asking her 'brothers' to bomb the prison because she did not feel that she or her fellow detainees had a right to live any longer due to the horrors (rape) she had endured. I wasn't sure at the time if it was genuine. After the videos became available, it was verified that she had been abused, as she said.

A woman lawyer tried to find her afterwards, but could not. Her family had moved ~ no one knows where she or they went. I would be willing to bet that at least some of them are part of the insurgency now.

If Bush wanted to end these vile practices, they would have stopped long ago. He and his administration do not want to end it. That is obvious to the world.

The way to make our soldiers safe, is to show the world that Americans are as horrified as the rest of the world, proving it by removing from office, Bush, Cheney and the entire bunch of neocons who got us into this mess.

Meantime, I really don't know whether releasing the pictures will help or hurt that goal. Rightwingers will insist that it is the pictures that is causing the harm, not the policies, and no matter how ludicrous this may be, some will believe it.

[jbnow]

70. We didn't show the world our horror

since those you mentioned: Gonzalez, Sanchez, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Woflowitz, Gen. Miller have been re-elected, promoted or given medals of honor. Now that's accountability.

You mention the woman not feeling she should live...it is those lasting consequences that are haunting. We are appalled, rightly, by beheading, but don't understand that the humiliation heaped on these prisoners is more dishonorable to them. And...I hope that the pictures don't add to the humiliation of any prisoners in them. Don't imagine they signed releases.

Now that we've been caught...what are we doing for those we abused? Do you know?

[Catrina]

72. No, you're right!

There was so little outrage.

What should we do for those we abused? I don't know! There are organizations that work with victims of torture, maybe donate to them, or volunteer to work with them ~ I wonder can they ever recover, especially the children?

I know I was outraged from the minute I saw the pictures on the transport planes going to Guantanamo Bay from Afghanistan three years ago. Someone put them on the Internet. There was outrage, but not at the treatment of the detainees, at whoever released the pictures. That was enough for me. I was on a forum (still am) where we had an attorney who kept us informed of the efforts in court on behalf of those detainees.

I told everyone I knew, but got little response in real life. Even when I read that two of the detainees had died, and the coroner's report said it was murder, 'blunt force trauma', no one reacted!

I am glad we still have that thread as a record to show that there were people trying to get attention three years ago for these atrocities. Even learning that children were in GB did not move people ~ and the media was totally silent to its eternal shame, and maybe criminal complicity.

I was relieved when the Abu Ghraib pictures were released, horrified, but glad that finally, I thought, something would be done. But it hasn't ~ torture is still a US policy.

Maybe now, with the tide turning against Bush, the next pictures will finally shame Americans into taking action. I hope so.

[jbnow]

74. I was actually wondering if the US

government is trying to make any amends to those abused at Abu Ghraib. I know they wouldn't have without public exposure and I know money doesn't atone for it. But it would be the least they could do and I was expecting to hear about big financial offerings to victims, but if there were, I missed the news. Are they doing anything beyond punishing the low level soldiers in the pictures?

I hope you might be right that the new releases with the growing sense among the majority that we were tricked into war will bring more outrage. We never belonged there but having gone there we owed them so much more then the abuse and destruction we have brought to them. To be treated like heroes you have to act with nobility. They forgot that part.

And with the release I wish we could get attention to the administration trying to redefine what torture actually is, how much we can get away with legally and how many of the captives don't fall into protection of Geneva convention. Those documents were chilling and got too little attention. They are related.

I wonder if they can really recover too, as you said, especially the children. Seems I keep recalling poems I wrote as a preteen these days . There was one I wrote imagining being a child living in a war zone and it ended with "Sounds of gunshots echo through the valley and will echo long after guns have ceased"

And that is the saddest part...the pain that echoes on...and that we brought it for no decent reason.

[dxstone]

51. I do sympathize with your personal difficulties with this...

But we either have to go public, come clean on this stuff and bring the truly guilty down from their high horses and to trial for their crimes, which are simply LEGION, or...

The alternative.


I agree with a poster just a bit above who says you can't make it worse for our soldiers; the madmen we're trying to unseat will continue to take foolish risks with the lives of our soldiers, and to breed greater and greater levels of hatred and contempt for our apparently hypocritical society, until WE STOP THEM.
And WE CAN STOP THEM.
I'm sorry... but the danger is everywhere now, it is our shared environment... and there's little anyone can do to alleviate the risk to ANY of us, exept to STOP THIS MADNESS NOW.

WHAT KIND OF WORLD ARE YOU WILLING TO SETTLE FOR?
d

[peacebaby3]

55. Thanks to all of those that have posted in support and understand my point

It means a lot to have a supportive group of people.

[GeekMonkey]

57. as if keeping them hidden from the american people

does anything to keep them hidden from the rest of the world

the idea that exposing a weakness in order to have it fixed gives the enemy new ideas is silly

the enemy already knows what happened there

the enemy already has the ideas

[peacebaby3]

63. I guess I need to say this again.

At no time have I ever said anything about suppressing the photos or anything along those lines.

MY POINT (Again) is that I can promise you that the right wingers will bring up the topic of how this will cause more hostility toward the troops currently serving in Iraq and on that small point they are more than likely correct. THE DIFFERENCE is that they will blame it on us un-patriotic liberals and the ACLU where as if we discuss the photos we should also acknowledge that it will more than likely (really definitely) place our troops in a more hostile environment, but that the real culprits here are * and the admin.

To win the war of words, we should take a proactive line in support of our troops and not be reactionary as we often come across.

I also tried to explain how difficult this type of issue is for some people who have loved ones serving just to try to give some insight into the complete horrible situation this is.

I don't know how else to explain myself. I sometimes wonder if people actually read the entire post or follow-ups based on some things I have read.

[librechik]

67. justice is a process

painful to the innocent as well as the guilty.

Nevertheless, we must have justice.

We can be strong for this if we stay together and remember justice is worth every sacrifice.

[Alpharetta]

68. Also please keep in mind

Each time there is a report that depleted uranium is a toxic hazard to the people of Iraq, it builds hatred for America.

Each time there is a report of a terrorist attack in Iraq, it gives publicity to those who hate us for our freedoms.

Each time you mention the billions of dollars lost and stolen via Pentagon and Iraqi "government" corruption, you slow the funds we need to fight terrorism in Iraq.

So please remember not to make people think bad things about America and plot terrorist attacks against us whenever you mention the news in Iraq.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. This is "human shield" logic.

And yielding to it will make abuses skyrocket. Is that what you want?