Regarding Plame: Some time ago a group of du'ers

[shraby]

did an in-depth study of why Plame might have been outed. Many of you are new here and might want to read some of it. Here are a couple of links:

<http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/AMERICANJUDAS.pdf>

or

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=66773>

[LSparkle]

1. Chilling ... thanks for links

[leveymg]

2. This is excellent and timely - Thank you and thank Rob Paulsen!

[H2O Man]

3. I've heard of those! n/t

[shraby]

5. I know you have Waterman.

And a lot of thanks to you too for your contributions. I don't remember who all worked on them, but thought I'd link to it as it's very timely right now. Thanks to all who did a bang up job on putting this info together!!!!!!

[H2O Man]

6. It is nice to see

some of what so many people worked on beginning to come to pass. It has been fun for me to get e-mails from some of the old gang that I haven't had an opportunity to talk to in a long time. Thank you for putting this thread up!

[shraby]

7. Do you have a link to the Waterman Papers?

Might be a good idea to add that too.

[H2O Man]

8. I don't think I do.

It might be on my blog, though I am not sure. In time it might be worth putting up. At this time, I think Robert's article is a heck of a good thing for people to read. It should serve as more than a good start to get people up-to-date with some of the important issues.

[merh]

20. The Waterman Paper!!!!

Hmmm - I'm seem to recall that one! :hug:


Those threads, talk about walks down memory lane! :hi:

[robertpaulsen]

26. Here it is, the one & only original.

Thanks for all your hard work and inspiration, H20 Man:

The Waterman Paper (as published on the Home Page of Democratic Underground July 24, 2004)

The Waterman Paper July 24, 2004
By H2O Man


This paper examines the possibility that Vice President Dick Cheney orchestrated the "leaking" of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity to the news media in the summer of 2003, in order to accomplish three goals.

These include (1) to punish Joseph Wilson for challenging "16 words" in President Bush's 1-28-03 State of the Union address; and (2) to intimidate other sources from publicly challenging the White House's version of events involving the "war on terrorism" and the US invasion of Iraq. Both of these goals are well-known from numerous reports on this White House scandal.

The other, (3) is that VP Cheney was attempting to derail an investigation that Plame may have been involved in at the time that her identity was exposed. This third potential goal has not been the subject of any major media attention.
The author of this paper put it forward on an internet forum, the Democratic Underground, in early July, 2004. The resulting eleven DU "threads," which consist of over 3,000 posts from interested citizens across the country, is the only known forum debating this theory.

Besides the eleven DU "Plame Indictment" threads, the information in this paper comes from the following four sources: The Politics of Truth, by Joseph Wilson; Worse Than Watergate, by John Dean; Don't Tread on Joseph Wilson, NYT book review by John Dean on 5-23-04; and Plenty to Swear About, by Joe Klein, Time, 7-5-04.

Time Line

While the case involving Wilson's investigation in Niger, and the White House's efforts to expose Plame is long and complicated, this paper will focus on a "time line" established by Wilson in his book.

1. Jan '02: The first reports of a Niger-Iraq uranium connection surface in the White House.

2. Feb '02: Wilson is asked to investigate by the CIA.

3. March '02: Wilson returns from Niger and briefs the CIA on the investigation. His conclusion supports those of two others that there was no Niger-Iraq connection.

4. Jan '03: Bush includes the "16 words" in his State of the Union address.

5. On or about March 5, '03: the CIA gives VP Cheney an oral report, informing him of Wilson's conclusions.

6. March 7, '03: the IAEA announces the US's documents on Niger-Iraq are forgeries.

7. March 8, '03: (a) a State Department spokesperson admits, "We fell for it" in regard to the forged document; (b) Wilson tells CNN that the State Department has more information on the subject; and (c) a workshop meeting is held in VP Cheney's office. It is attended by top republican officials, possibly including Cheney, Scooter Libby, and Newt Gingrich. The group discusses ways to discredit Wilson.

8. June 8, '03: Condoleeza Rice denies knowledge of the weakness of the Niger uranium claim on Meet The Press. She states, "Maybe someone down in the bowels of the Agency knew about this, but nobody in my circles."

9. July 6, '03: Wilson's NYT op-ed is published. By the following day, two senior White House officials began contacting at least six reporters, informing them of Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA operative.

10. July 8, '03: Reporter Robert Novak tells a complete stranger on a Washington street: "Wilson's an asshole. The CIA sent him. His wife, Valerie, works for the CIA. She's a weapons of mass destruction specialist. She sent him." In the following days, Novak would ask the CIA for confirmation of Plame's identity. He was asked not to print her name or identity in any article regarding Wilson.

11. July 14, '03: Novak's article exposes Plame.

12. July 20, '03: NBC's Andrea Mitchell tells Wilson that senior White House officials told her that the "real story" was not the 16 words, but was Wilson and his wife.

13. July 21, '03: NBC's Chris Matthews tells Wilson that Karl Rove called him and said," Wilson's wife is fair game." Matthews said he would confirm that if asked.

This time line indicates that while the exposing of Plame's identity was a result of Wilson's op-ed, it was also part of a larger strategy that had been planned in VP Cheney's office since March 8. It clearly confirms goal #1: by exposing Plame, and putting her safety at risk, the White House had severely punished Joseph Wilson.
It also supports goal #2: the White House had a strategy to intimidate any other potential intelligence operatives from exposing the administration for distorting information regarding Iraq.

Likewise, the exposing of Plame supports goal #3: exposing Plame put an immediate end to any activities that Plame was participating in at the time. This is supported by Wilson (pg 345): "She immediately began to prepare a checklist of things she needed to do to minimize the fall-out to the projects she was working on."

Also, Wilson notes: "Compromising the officer means compromising a career, a network, and every person with who the officer might have ever worked. Slips of the tongue cost people their lives." (pg 13)

The Leakers' Identities

Robert Novak sourced his story to two senior White House officials. Other reporters, including Andrea Mitchell, made mention of the two unidentified senior White House officials. These two are among the at least six reporters contacted by these two officials.
Chris Matthew's call identifies Karl Rove as being involved in the efforts to make "Wilson's wife ... fair game." This call took place after the calls from the senior officials to the six reporters.
Wilson's book indicates a belief that the two senior officials were Lewis "Scooter" Libby and Eliot Abrams. Abrams is no stranger to White House disgrace, having been convicted on two charges during the Iran-Contra scandal.

There is evidence the three were operating with the knowledge of, and perhaps under the direction of VP Cheney. The March 8 "workshop" in VP Cheney's office indicates that this was a long-standing, well-organized effort to discredit Wilson. As Wilson notes (pg 387) : "... a plan to attack me had been formed before the moment. It was cocked and ready to fire .... an organized smear campaign directed from the highest reaches of the White House."

Cheney and Pre-War Intelligence

Those involved in the "workshop" to discredit Wilson were also active in efforts to influence pre-war intelligence reports. On page 6, Wilson discusses "leaks" that Cheney, Libby, and Newt Gingrich pressured the intelligence community "to skew intelligence analysists" to fit their own needs.

On page 338, Wilson notes that these three reportedly intimidated analysts by implying, "if you do a 'Wilson' on us, we will do worse to you."

Wilson notes (pg 434) that VP Cheney runs a "parallel national security office," which has no congressional oversight, and hence can "circumvent long-standing and accepted reporting structures and to skew decision-making practices."

As a result, as reported by Joe Klein in Time (7-5-04) "the intelligence community is at war with the White House." Klein notes that "multiple intelligence sources" indicated to him their belief that Cheny strong-armed out-going CIA Director George Tenet, to make him support Cheney and Rumsfeld's positions on Iraq.

Cheney, Niger, and Wilson's Trip

Wilson notes a report on a possible Niger-Iraq yellow cake uranium transaction had "aroused the interests of Vice President Dick Cheney." (pg 14) Cheney's office "had tasked the CIA to determine if there was any truth to the report." (pg 14)

It is clear that Cheney was aware of the Niger report, and had directed his office to have the CIA do an investigation of it. There is evidence that on March 5, the CIA gave VP Cheney an oral report on Wilson's findings. This was three days before the State Department spokesperson told the media, "We fell for it," and that Wilson told CNN that the State Department had more information on that subject. March 8 was also the day that the "workshop" to discredit Wilson was held in Cheney's office.

"What I Didn't Find" vs "16 Words"

The White House retracted President Bush's infamous 16 words immediately after Wilson's op-ed appeared in the New York Times.
On 7-13-03, Condi Rice told Fox News Sunday that, "It is ludicrous to suggest that the president of the United States went to war on the question of whether Saddam Hussein sought uranium from Africa."
On 7-14-03, Robert Novak exposed Valerie Plame's identity. It is important to recognize that Novak was aware that Plame was an operative who specialized in WMDs, and that he had been asked by the CIA not to reveal her identity, or even print her name, in an article on Wilson.

The White House continued to engage in efforts to discredit Wilson, including sending three identical e-mails of "talking points" to Keith Olbermann when Wilson was appearing on MSNBC's Countdown.
1982 Intelligence Identity Protection Act

Wilson notes that the administration had already acknowledged the Niger-Iraq link was unsubstantiated, and that logically, they should have focused attention on how the 16 words made their way into the president's State of the Union address. The effort to expose Plame's identity made little sense. (pg 7)

Later, he continues with, "The White House gained nothing by publicizing Valerie's name..." (pg 7)
"Then it struck me that the attack by Rove and the administration on my wife had little to do with her, but a lot to do with others who might be tempted to speak out." (pgs 5-6)
"The decision of the president's people to come after me .... arose from no concerns over the emergence of secrets from my mission -- there weren't any." (pg 339)
"However offensive, there was a certain logic to it. If you have something to hide, one way to keep it secret is to threaten anyone who might expose it. But it was too late to silence me." (pg 338)


Goal #3: Why Cheney Exposed Plame

Wilson notes that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor, pointed out that since the Bush people had never backed down before, the fact that they had been "so quick to admit their error this time meant they must have something more important to protect." (pg 4)

In Worse Than Watergate, John Dean calls the exposing of Plame the "Dirtiest of Dirty Tricks." He writes that "revealing her identity damaged the national security and her career, and resulted in the loss of a valuable government asset." He called this action "literally life-threatening." (pgs 170-171)

What could have possibly been so important to VP Cheney that he oversaw the violating of the 1982 IIPA, and risked a White House scandal? The answer clearly can not be found in goals #1 or #2.
The answer, which supports goal #3, appears in Klein's article: "Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components. ..... 'Only a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll' of the CIA, an intelligence source told me."

And that very high-ranking official may have known through his parallel national security office about the activities that Plame was involved with at that time. The answer to goal #3 likely is to be found in the checklist of things Valerie Plame did to mitigate the damage done by Novak's article immediately after she read it.

Conclusions

This paper presents direct evidence that the intelligence group that operates out of VP Cheney's office orchestrated the exposure of Valerie Plame as a CIA operative, in order to realize goal #1, the "punishing" of Joseph Wilson for publicly challenging President Bush.

It includes both direct and circumstantial evidence from sources including Wilson, Dean, Klein, and others, that indicates they also had goal #2 in mind: to intimidate any other potential sources that could challenge their reasons for invading Iraq, as well as other measures in their "war on terorism."

Yet these two goals alone do not explain why VP Cheney would (1) take part in a measure that would violate a federal law against exposing a CIA operative, or (2) risk a serious scandal for the Bush Administration.

The possibility that VP Cheney was hoping to derail a sting operation involving Valerie Plame, which is our identified goal #3, does explain why VP Cheney would condone the breaking of the federal law, and risk the most serious scandal that this administration faces.

Further research by an ad hoc DU "think tank" has identified possible connections between businesses connected to VP Cheney that may be associated with the sale of WMD components to countries in the Middle East. It is our belief that this theory and the evidence that supports it needs a more in-depth investigation.
At the time of publishing, the most recent message board thread on this subject can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3988991

Enjoy, everyone!

[H2O Man]

27. Holy cow!

Isn't that something?

[merh]

32. Gee - it looks like this Waterman guy was on to something

a whole year ago! :freak:

[H2O Man]

52. Don't trust him, merh!

Several deep thinkers have exposed him on another thread this very day. Blood is indeed thicker than water.

[merh]

53. Where?

Tell me where the vile doubters exist!

I will go let them have it, or will I get nasty pmails tell me I've been bad? :shrug:

Don't you believe them H2O - that Waterman knows some stuff! :-)

[H2O Man]

54. An e-mail will follow!

"Thicker" was a key word.

[coeur_de_lion]

76. whats the deal?

Someone picking on you, brother? Do tell! I'll have a little talk with them.

[NewJeffCT]

39. I have copies of it on two computers...

it's good reading.

[lovuian]

146. When we look back we see the Destruction of the CIA

top officials ran out and retired in droves and when we see Tenet asked to resign the whole plot was destruction of the agency

Now look at it

under Negroponte and no longer the powerful organization it use to be!!! Its an underling now!!!

[H2O Man]

148. Absolutely true.

There is a historic example with similar results. One can look at the US involvement in Vietnam, and trace it back to a relatively small group of people. More, they were almost all remarkably wrong people! James C. Thomson, who left government in 1966 because he knew how wrong our involvement was -- and was helpless to do anything about it -- has pointed out that the State Department's best minds from the Bureau of Far Eastern Affairs "had been purged of its best China expertise .... as a result of McCarthyism."

The hysteria then was not unlike that of the Bush administration. Yesterday's McCarthyism has evolved into today's terror alertness. The top minds in CI's Middle East affairs have been forced out, and a group of less capable people are holding the decision-making powers.

The results are similar, indeed!

[Just Me]

4. Paulsen does an excellent job of describing the web/network.

Our monsters created their monsters.

[MsTryska]

9. you know i jsut have to say this.....

we wondered for so long why they had forgotten Valerie Plame, and now she's all over the rpimetime news. all it takes is the supremes, apparently.

[robertpaulsen]

10. Thank you shraby! Is anyone out there game for more?

For those who want to go in depth with our research from last summer, here's what we came up with so far:

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1902738

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case-thread2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1920799

Plame indictments.....Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1933148

Plame indictments.....Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1946368

Plame indictments.....Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1962806

Plame indictments......thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1971177

Plame indictments thread 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1987271

PLAME INDICTMENTS THREAD 8 -High Crimes & Misdemeanors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1999438

PLAME INDICTMENTS THREAD #9 High Crimes & Misdemeanors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2011088

Plame Indictments thread 10
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2015582

PLAME INDICTMENT THREAD #11-High Crimes & Misdemeanors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2023260

PLAME INDICTMENT THREAD #12- HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2041061

PLAME INDICTMENTS #13 High Crimes & Misdemeanors-"The Tip Of The Iceberg"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2055363

PLAME INDICTMENTS #14 -High Crimes & Misdemeanors -"The Tip Of The Iceberg
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2085743

PLAME INDICTMENTS # 15-HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS -The Tip Of The Iceberg
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2123068

PLAME Indictments #16 TREASON- The Tip of Iceberg-Edmonds
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2146652

PLAME INDICTMENTS #17-HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS-The Tip Of The Iceberg
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2178477

PLAME INDICTMENTS #18 -HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS-Tip of the Iceberg
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2191498

PLAME INDICTMENTS # 19 - HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS-The Tip Of The Iceberg
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user&saz=bookmark&ssaz=view_old

PLAME INDICTMENT #20-High Crime & Misdemeanors-Tip of Iceberg-Edmonds-Khan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2225780



It stopped at 20 threads. It was an incredible effort by everyone involved and my only regret is that by the end the effort digressed into arguments over what direction to continue the pursuit of the truth. I'd like to continue the research and anyone who wants to join in is free to do so. Let's try to remember (and I'll try to follow this advice myself) to respect every contribution here. I think in addition to doing research on this thread and educating fellow DUers about the Plame case, this would be a wonderful opportunity to discuss how best to support each other in our pursuit of the truth.

There's one direction I currently am interested in pursuing. Again, I don't want anyone to feel coerced into believing this is the only direction this thread should have, all tangents in pursuit of the truth regarding Plame are welcome. But I'm curious about this recent article that seemslikeadream recently brought to my attention:

John Bolton, Downing Street, Mohamed ElBaradei, and Valerie Plame
Yes very interesting, the closer to Plame the closer to Bolton!

Sun Jun 19th, 2005 at 17:46:17 PDT
One of the nagging questions of the Valerie Plame case has always been who in the White House would have even known who Valerie Plame, covert CIA operative, actually was. The identity of covert agents is strictly compartmentalized information; even in high-level briefings on the actions or intelligence gathered by those agents, the agents themselves are identified by alias or code, not by name. The reasons for this practice are obvious.

And, in the case of the White House, there was hardly a pressing need to know the identity of one Ms. Valerie Plame. It is middlingly possible that members of the Bush Administration knew Mrs. Valerie Wilson as wife of Ambassador Joseph Wilson. It is less possible that more than a tight handful of persons -- if that -- would have known Valerie Plame, covert CIA operative. The highest crime in the Wilson/Plame case likely does not revolve principally around who, precisely, shopped the information about Plame's covert status to Novak and other D.C. journalists: instead, it rests with who told that political operative -- the one with a full rolodex and the skill to select presumed-friendly leak points -- that Plame was a CIA operative in the first place, and worthy of attack. Among the White House political staff, there was precisely zero need to know this information -- and if classified intelligence procedures were being followed, no opportunities to find out.

It is undisputed among all parties that Plame's covert work involved principally the gathering of intelligence related to weapons of mass destruction, which put her at an important nexus of operations in the runup to the Iraq War. At another nexus point across town, during the same period, was John Bolton.

post #51

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3976740&mesg_id=3977321


I think we've got a new lead here, Plame researchers. There's a lot more fish to fry in this cesspool of treason.

Anyone else got more leads to pursue?

[seemslikeadream]

11. William Burns

He was mentioned at DU awhile back in connection to Bolton. I'm looking for the link.

[shraby]

12. Kick this thread..important

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[robertpaulsen]

13. That's a new name to me.

Here's what I found:

June 06, 2005
MAJOR SCOOP: Assistant Secretary of State Bill Burns & Libya the Subjects of One Bolton NSA Intercept Request

John Bolton so irritated British negotiators who were working on a resolution to Libya's WMD programs that they asked the American team on Libya to remove John Bolton from the case. Bolton was dropped.

TWN has now learned from a highly placed intelligence source, "with direct knowledge," that one of the 10 intercept requests made by John Bolton was about Libya. The identity of the U.S. official requested by Bolton was William Burns, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs.

This shows a couple of things about Bolton that further underscore his vanity and irresponsibility when it comes to national security issues.

First, Bolton was NOT on a need-to-know basis in the Libya case. He had been removed from that portfolio.

more...

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000700.html

[robertpaulsen]

14. Here's more on the Bolton-Burns scenario.

Who Else Was John Bolton Spying Upon?
As Mary reported last night, there are new developments in the John Bolton confirmation story; surrounding his direct efforts to fire the UN’s director of chemical weapons nonproliferation efforts. You’ll also recall that last week we ran with a story first reported by Douglas Jehl of the New York Times that John Bolton had specially requested copies of NSA intercepts, documents that the White House refuses to turn over to the Senate Intelligence Committee. The story by Jehl indicated that the reason why the White House was fighting tooth and nail to prevent the Senate from getting these copies, aside from the usual Cheneyesque “fuck Congress and the horses they rode in on” modus operandi, was because the intercepts contained the names of individuals and companies that might have been violating the ban on exporting weapons materials to China, and perhaps Libya and Iran. I presumed at the time, because I always assume the worst about Republicans and money, that the White House was preventing the Senate from getting these intercepts to protect GOP contributors and to prevent a major embarrassment to itself.

The story has gone under the radar screen since the first report by Jehl, either because of the usual White House clamp down (remember that the sources for the original story were pro-Bolton and anti-Bolton administration insiders), or because the original story was a misdirection attempt to get the media off the trail of something even more onerous. I had thought with every passing day of no news on this story that the misdirection angle was the likely reason.

Then last Thursday afternoon, I received a tip that the real story may not be the export ban angle after all, but rather something more damaging to Bolton: he requested the NSA intercepts to spy on his co-workers. Aside from the gross misuse of national security assets for personal political purposes, any attempt by Bolton to use the national security apparatus to spy on coworkers, even if done under the veneer of his regular assignments would presumedly have been known to those above his pay grade, since we are talking about cross-jurisdictional lines here. And if in fact Bolton was spying on coworkers, this would be at least as damaging to the White House as it would to Bolton personally because it would show an out-of-control Administration steeped in a Nixonian paranoia, which isn’t that far-fetched given Rummy and Cheney’s tours of duty now and then.

Today Steve Clemons gets another shoe to drop when he reports that Bolton in fact requested at least one NSA intercept on Libya, in an effort to spy on a fellow State Department appointee, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs William Burns. But at the time Bolton made the special request from the NSA for this intercept, he had already been removed from working on Libyan WMD issues at the direct request of the British. I am not sure but I would think that requesting an NSA intercept on a country that isn’t in your “need-to-know” portfolio of responsibilities would have to be approved by your superiors at State (Richard Armitage and Colin Powell), the NSA itself, and even possibly the White House. That the national security information would be used to spy upon coworkers for your own political purposes would of course be something that these layers of review would question themselves, when they would ask why you need this information when you are no longer working on the Libya WMD issue for the Administration. I mean, why would Armitage and Powell approve Bolton’s fishing expedition on Libya after he had been removed from the assignment?

more...

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004569.php

[robertpaulsen]

15. The last two paragraphs post interesting questions.

Please note that Burns and Powell go way back to the days when Burns worked for Powell at the NSC, so any focus by Bolton towards Burns is in fact a focus by Bolton on the boss himself.

What if Armitage and Powell didn’t know anything about the NSA intercepts because they weren’t supposed to, because they were also targets? This in fact was the subject of the tip I received last week.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004569.php

I agree with half of that. Bolton definitely had the means and motive to spy on Powell. But Dirty Dick Armitage? Sorry, Bolton and Armitage occupy the same bed as far as I can tell.

[seemslikeadream]

18. the agent told me without a hint of dark humor, on September 11

Khan Job: Bush Spiked Probe of Pakistan’s Dr. Strangelove, BBC reported in 2001


You may never have heard of Khan Laboratories, but if this planet blows to pieces this year, it will be thanks to Khan Labs' creating nuclear warheads for Pakistan's military. Because investigators had been tracking the funding for this so-called "Islamic Bomb" back to Saudi Arabia, under Bush security restrictions, the inquiry was stymied. (The restrictions were lifted, the agent told me without a hint of dark humor, on September 11.)

Noam Chomsky, who read the story on page one of the Times of India, has wondered, "Why wasn't it all over US papers?

.. A top-level CIA operative who spoke with us on condition of strictest anonymity said that, after Bush took office, "There was a major policy shift" at the National Security Agency. Investigators were ordered to "back off" from any inquiries into Saudi Arabian financing of terror networks, especially if they touched on Saudi royals and their retainers. That put the Bin Ladens, a family worth a reported $12 billion and a virtual arm of the Saudi royal household, off limits for investigation.

I probed our CIA contact for specifics of investigations that were hampered by orders to back off of the Saudis. He told us that Khan Laboratories investigation had been effectively put on hold.



http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=312&row=0

[seemslikeadream]

21. BCCI and Pakistani Nuclear Hero

BCCI and Pakistani Nuclear Hero
Pakistan's Nuclear Hero Defended
by Jefferson Morley

"Washington and Islamabad," says the Delhi-based daily, are "holding their breath" to see if Khan "will spill the beans about Pakistan's offical complicity in the spread of nuclear weapons technology."

Pakistan proceeded to spend some $10 billion developing a nuclear arsenal, say the editors of the Times of India. The money came from Libya, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates and the depositors of the BCCI. The bank, says the editors of the Times of India, was founded by a Pakistani and operated freely in the Persian Gulf oil enclave of Dubai. It is inconceivable, they argue, that Western intelligence agencies didn't know all about this black market.

In other words, was the United States totally clueless while a Pakistani scientist supplied nuclear technology to Iran and North Korea.


MORE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1080836

[blm]

112. Clueless - NO...Complicit - Yes.

BCCI is at the root of EVERYTHING that the BFEE is doing today.

[robertpaulsen]

38. This quote stood out for me.

According to both sources and documents obtained by the BBC, the Bush Administration “spike” of the investigation of Dr. Khan’s Lab followed from a wider policy of protecting key Saudi Arabians including the Bin Laden family.

No kidding. There are definitely links between A.Q. Khan and Osama bin Laden. "Wider policy" indeed.

[kohodog]

41. Wow, heady stuff

I'm going to have to check through the old Plame threads, and see how current knowledge adds too or changes what we were discovering then. First i think I'll read AmericanJudas again though. It seems more relevant than ever.

[seemslikeadream]

45. German Faces Trial for Nuclear Smuggling (Khan)- IMPORTANT

This link has all the background on this guy

--------

Gerhard Wisser, 66, was arrested last September in South Africa and charged with four counts of contravening the Nuclear Energy Act and a law banning the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

Wisser is believed to be part of the nuclear smuggling network thought to be linked to Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan (photo), who has admitted to helping Libya and other nations develop their weapons programs.

The German national is in particular suspected of organizing production in South Africa of equipment for Libya's covert nuclear program, which the country has since abandoned, German weekly Der Spiegel reports in its Monday issue.

The magazine said prosecutors uncovered several pieces of evidence linking Wisser to Khan's network during their investigation: a video cassette of Khan's laboratory in Pakistan, a business card of Khan's chief purchaser, and documents signed by Khan.

MORE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1309634

[robertpaulsen]

47. This could turn out to be a VERY big link.

Wow, in just a few hours I'm learning so much new info on this case! Thanks! Unfortunately, I won't be online again until late tomorrow night, but I'll look deeper into this Gerhard Wisser character and see what I can come up with.

Let's keep this cookin'!

[kohodog]

49. self delete....wrong reply spot!

[robertpaulsen]

107. Here's 3 more names: Daniel Geiges, Johan Meyer & Randburg.

New documents in SA WMD case
14/09/2004 13:09 - (SA)

Vanderbijlpark - The bail application of two men charged under laws against the proliferation of nuclear weapons was delayed in Vanderbijlpark on Tuesday to give lawyers time to study new documents.

Randburg engineering company directors Gerhard Wisser and Daniel Geiges were arrested last Wednesday.

They face four charges of allegedly possessing equipment and components that could lead to the manufacture of weapons of mass destruction.

Their arrest came after similar charges were unexpectedly withdrawn against Vanderbijlpark engineering company director Johan Meyer.

more...

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1588968,00.html

So, new questions arise. Did Wisser and Geiges take the fall for Meyer? Who does Meyer take orders from? And what is Randburg? Who sits on that board?

I'll be back Sunday & see if I can find some answers.

[notadmblnd]

257. looks like Meyers company Tradefin

was making the the parts

snip: Johan Andries Muller Meyer, a 53-year-old director of a manufacturing firm in the South African town of Vanderbiljpark, was arrested Thursday and charged Friday on three criminal counts of trafficking in some of the most sensitive nuclear equipment available.

Between November 2000 and November 2001, Meyer "unlawfully and deliberately had equipment that could be used to design, manufacture, develop, expose, and maintain the application of weapons of mass destruction," according to the South African charge sheet.

The charges provide a detailed list of key nuclear weapons components that Meyer's company, Trade Fin, was alleged to be involved with, including: gas centrifuges that enrich uranium for bombs; feed and piping systems that deliver the uranium inside the centrifuges; and a Spanish-made machine that produces the main centrifuge component -- high-precision steel rotor tubes where the enriching takes place.

After months of complex investigations, the International Atomic Energy Agency and partners in about 20 countries are getting closer to understanding the scope of the black market run by Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, according to government officials and experts involved with proliferation issues. The network is suspected of helping North Korea, Iran and Libya develop nuclear programs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A60368-2004Sep3?language=printer

here's a press release from the South African Council for the non-proliferation on WMD
http://www.info.gov.za/speeches/2004/04091015451002.htm

BBC news says Meyer has turned on Wisser and Geiges

snip:
A third man - who was arrested last week on similar charges - decided to turn state witness to help the investigation, Mr MacAdam said.

He said the charges against the third men, South African engineer Johan Meyer, 53, were subsequently dropped.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3664258.stm

[kohodog]

67. Hi RP. I want to check out the new Moon proliferation info too.

This was posted today in relation to BushCo's possibly seizing assets of a Moon owned company.

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200506/kt2005063017560311950.htm

NK Firms Targeted as WMD Proliferators


By Reuben Staines
Staff Reporter
The United States is targeting three North Korean firms, including a trading company involved in a joint venture with a South Korean carmaker, under a new executive order to freeze the assets of suspected weapons of mass destruction (WMD) proliferators.

The order, signed by U.S. President George W. Bush on Wednesday, singles out the Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation, Tanchon Commercial Bank and the Korea Ryonbong General Corporation as companies believed to be assisting in the spread of WMDs.

snip

However, experts in Seoul expressed surprise over the inclusion of Korea Ryonbong General Corporation, a Pyongyang-based company that in 2002 launched an automobile assembly line together with South Korea’s Pyonghwa Motors.

The South Korean firm, owned by Rev. Moon Sun-myung’s Unification Church, invested about 71 billion won in the plant located in the North Korean city of Nampo, according to news reports.

more


I don't remember if we tied Kahn to Moon, but there was the purchase of Russian Submarines by Moon that came up. If this is off track, no problem. But so much of what this administration is doinfg seems anthitetical to the concept of non-proliferation.

[robertpaulsen]

106. I remember those subs. Good lead to investigate, kohodog!

Just to refresh everyone's memory:

"Jane's Defense Weekly is reporting this week that Kim Jong-Il, unstable North Korean dictator, may be able to target California with sea-launched missiles. His know-how, the Reuters story relates, comes from 12 ex-Soviet submarines that fell into his hands. They came with their original launch tubes and stabilizing gear intact. Where does Kim get those wonderful toys? Funny story: According to U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency documents from 1994 (which you can browse here), they were furnished by Reverend Moon. Robert Parry, the ace reporter who broke the Iran-Contra story, obtained these files through the Freedom of Information Act while writing his 2000 story, 'Rev. Moon, North Korea and the Bushes,' about Moon's gifts to the Communist regime."

http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/000461.php

You know who we should ask who would know a lot more about Moon? Minstrel Boy. He's written some scathing articles about Moon and Bush. If anyone could tie Moon with Khan, it's Minstrel Boy.

[H2O Man]

16. Starting Over .....

(four part harmony .... anna one ... anna two .....) It's been so long since we took the time
No one's to blame
I know time flies so quickly
But when I see the Plame threads ...

oops! sorry .... carried away ...

[robertpaulsen]

22. I've still got champagne chilling...

I'm sure there will be a lot more songs to sing when we watch the...

FROGMARCH!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[H2O Man]

23. July 14th?????

That date sounds familiar!

[seemslikeadream]

29. Parlez vous Francis?

[kohodog]

30. Ha Ha!

Now I get it. We all had the wrong year! How ironic would it be if indictments came out on July 14 2005!

But seriously, those were some fascinating fun days. And I see that one of Moon's companies is implicated in WMD trafficking! Are we coming full circle?

[robertpaulsen]

34. Would that date coincide with Novakula's Folly?

The irony is so thick, you could cut it with a WMD.

[HootieMcBoob]

42. I was glued to these threads last summer

and I'm not talking about the sweaty shirt on my back right now either :)

Yes, July 14th! We thought there would be something coming a year ago...well, better late than never I always say.

It does sound as if Fitzgerald is not playing games here.

And thanks for posting these threads again. I was thinking about them recently and even checked to see if Waterman had started any new ones lately. It'll be nice to read through these again.

[seemslikeadream]

17. Very interesting comment from Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald, Plame case.

by flpoljunkie in GD Politics
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/30/AR2005063000205_pf.html


Fitzgerald declined to comment, but in court papers unsealed yesterday he said the case remains unchanged and focuses on potentially serious criminal misconduct.

Fitzgerald urged the judge to jail the reporters as soon as possible and to start enforcing a $1,000-per-day penalty he had levied against Time.

"We shouldn't enable people to think court orders are optional," Fitzgerald said. "When President Nixon got the order to turn over the tapes, he didn't say, 'Let me think about my alternatives.' " "This case is not about a whistle-blower," Fitzgerald added. "It's about potential retaliation against a whistle-blower."

[H2O Man]

19. Very nice!

Sounds like what some of us have been saying.

[Auntie Bush]

28. I like your Jesus, Jesus, Jesus picture.

[seemslikeadream]

31. Thanks, you can have it too if ya want

distressedamerican has a bunch of pictures, said anyone could use them.

[leftofthedial]

24. has there ever been a more evil cabal in power than the bushturdgang?

they are criminals on a scale I don't think has ever been rivalled.

[H2O Man]

25. No.

They bake the cake.

[seemslikeadream]

33. Here's all my Bolton links

Frist & McCain Raise Ante on Bolton Cloture Vote (TWN)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1547952#1548295

New Bolton scandal re: NSA intercept - it's STILL not over yet....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3796591

Was Bolton behind death of State Department official?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3525714

Bolton Said to Orchestrate Unlawful Firing (Downing Street Memo Alert!!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1523137

WoW! Bolton Stopped UN WMD Inspectors Going to Iraq!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3785495

Harry Reid Speaks Boldly on Bolton this Morning:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3866299

Is it at all possible that maybe, just possibly,... John Bolten
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Did Bolton do Dick Cheney's biding to suppress info by outing Plame
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3655510

[robertpaulsen]

35. Excellent work, SLaD!

I feel bad I missed a lot of those threads. I'll be sure to read them all. I think the answer to the question of that last thread you linked is a resounding: YES!!!

[shraby]

36. I gotta wax my car, someone want

to recommend this so it will stay current?

[seemslikeadream]

37. Thanks robertpaulsen here is something else for you to look at

Have you been to Minstrel discussion group?

http://p097.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm7.showMessage?topicID=482.topic

I wonder if the FBI is talking to itself?

[robertpaulsen]

40. Yes, I've been there!

Someone took the name robertpaulsen so I've got a different name there. But I haven't been on in a while, so I'll check out your link.

[robertpaulsen]

43. Hmmm...can you say "Plumbers"?

That was the first thought that came to mind reading this link. They're so paranoid they have to spy on each other!

Does any of this tie in with Chalabi's shenanigans, or am I confusing two completely different spy scandals? So much scandal, it all seems to bleed together.

[H2O Man]

110. Robert:

Google this name -- Thomas Charles Huston. He was an officer in Army Intelligence, who worked under the cover of the Y.A.F. group before going into the Nixon White House. He came up with the program that entailed media manipulation, and others that seem the genesis of the Plame tactics.

He is now a real estate attorney. Right. Remember on the first two Plame threads, there was a discussion about those who hold the reins of politcal power are not in "politics."

Let me know what you think.

[robertpaulsen]

144. Wow. This guy was such a fascist, he scared J. Edgar Hoover!

Thank H2O Man. I wasn't too familiar with this character, but what I'm reading so far about his activities sounds all too familiar. I found this in:

The Outrage
excerpted from the book
Sideshow
Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia
by William Shawcross
Simon and Schuster, 1979

To his disgust, neither the CIA nor the FBI had been able to discover such links. Huston was sure that this was because of the pusillanimity with which they approached the task-even J. Edgar Hoover was now reluctant to allow FBI "black bag jobs" and wiretaps without specific authorization from the Attorney General, and he refused absolutely to cooperate with the CIA. Huston was placed in charge of internal security affairs in the White House, and in April 1970 he persuaded Haldeman that the President must order the country's intelligence chiefs to draw up a coordinated plan for gathering intelligence on domestic dissidents. The meeting, fixed for early May, was postponed by the howls of anger that greeted the invasion.

snip

The session Huston had suggested took place on June 5. Nixon met with Hoover, CIA Director Richard Helms, Vice-Admiral Noel Gaylor (Director of the National Security Agency), General Donald Bennett (Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency), and Haldeman, Ehrlichman and Huston. He showed no trace of the publicly conciliatory President who had tried to identify himself with the aims of the protestants. Speaking from a paper prepared by Huston, Nixon asserted that "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Americans-mostly under thirty-are determined to destroy our society." They were "reaching out for the support-ideological and otherwise-of foreign powers." He complained about the quality of the intelligence that had so far been gathered, and appointed Hoover chairman of a new Inter Agency Committee on Intelligence. It was to have a staff working group, which would write a report on how better information could be gathered.

Hoover made his objections to the intrusion by Huston, "a hippie intellectual," very clear; but, goaded on by Huston, the working group did produce recommendations for the removal of almost all restraints on intelligence gathering. Many of its suggestions involved breaking the law. The other agency directors did not object, but when Hoover saw the more extreme options, he refused to sign the report unless his objections were typed onto each page as footnotes. This infuriated his colleagues, but eventually, to Huston's relief, they all signed the document and he carried it back to the White House.

Huston had a few good days. He informed Richard Helms that from now on everything to do with domestic intelligence and internal security was to be sent to his own "exclusive attention" in the White House, adding "Dr. Kissinger is aware of this new procedure." He then selected the most radical options in the ad-hoc committee's report and recommended their implementation to the President. "The Huston Plan," which Senator Sam Ervin of North Carolina, Chairman of the Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, later described as evidence of a ''Gestapo mentality," suggested that the intelligence community, with the authority of the President, should now be allowed to intercept and transcribe any international communication; read the mail; burgle homes; eavesdrop in any way on anyone considered a "threat to the internal security"; spy on student groups. Huston admitted to Nixon that "Covert coverage is illegal and there are serious risks involved" and that use of surreptitious entry "is clearly illegal; it amounts to burglary. It is also highly risky and could result in great embarrassment if exposed." But in both cases, he assured the President that the advantages outweighed the risks.

more...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Outrage_Sideshow.html

Here's more from Bob Woodward:

At the time, there was little or no public knowledge of the acrimony between the Nixon White House and Hoover's FBI. The Watergate investigations later revealed that in 1970 a young White House aide named Tom Charles Huston had come up with a plan to authorize the CIA, FBI and military intelligence units to intensify electronic surveillance of "domestic security threats," authorize illegal opening of mail and lift the restrictions on break-ins to gather intelligence.

Huston warned in a top-secret memo that the plan was "clearly illegal." Nixon initially approved the plan anyway. Hoover strenuously objected, because eavesdropping, opening mail and breaking into homes and offices of domestic-security threats were the FBI's bailiwick and the bureau didn't want competition. Nixon rescinded the Huston plan four days later.

more...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002296145_woodward02.html

I couldn't find anything on his "real estate" dealings today. Does it have anything to do with the recent eminent domain SCOTUS ruling?

on edit: here he is today-

http://pview.findlaw.com/view/1856783_1?noconfirm=0&channel=LP

[H2O Man]

149. He is a "person of interest" ....

Octafish posted some interesting information on the one new thread with his & my name in the heading. He came from Army Intelligence at a time when the White House was discovering the military was watching them closely (especially Henry K), and when there were frustrations resulting from other agencies not meeting the administration's needs. Hoover had numerous connections with Army Intelligence -- most obviously the example of King being "followed" -- and shared staff. He was no doubt warned not to cooperate with Huston's extreme plans.

Yet he remains largely a mysterious figure. Odd. I note that McCord, for all that has been said about him, is also rather undocumented in much of his career with the Agency. I don't think there is any question McCord set the plumbers up in a systematic manner. He was helping to bring Nixon down, but not to promote an early neocon agenda. With Huston, one wonders.

[Left Brain]

44. So much to absorb.

After reading all that, my head is reeling and I feel sick to my stomach.

Thanks so much for posting those archive links. Like many, I didn't become a DU member until after the November election crimes, so I missed out on that information.

Question: is there a documentary on this subject, or one in the works? I'd sure stand in line to see it and/or buy up copies to distribute to any- and everyone I know.

[robertpaulsen]

46. Some day, I'm sure there will be a plethora of documentaries.

I don't know of any in the works currently, but that's probably because there is so much left to unravel. I've tried e-mailing and faxing various journalists and media outlets with our discoveries here, but have received no replies. It's one year later, but I still think DU is the cutting edge for Plame research.

But when all is said and done, Fitzgerald knows exactly how historically significant this case is. Read how he compares Miller and Cooper's illegal stonewalling to Nixon during Watergate:

"We shouldn't enable people to think court orders are optional," Fitzgerald said. "When President Nixon got the order to turn over the tapes, he didn't say, 'Let me think about my alternatives.' " "This case is not about a whistle-blower," Fitzgerald added. "It's about potential retaliation against a whistle-blower."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/30/AR2005063000205_pf.html

God bless Fitzgerald & keep him safe from harm!

[Left Brain]

62. Yes, I read that earlier.

The statement about Nixon is ripe. Bet it got an eyebrow or two twitching }(

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

[TacticalPeek]

48. Kick

:kick:

[robertpaulsen]

50. Sorry to leave right as this thread becomes flaming hot!

:kick:

I'll try to be back tomorrow night. Let's keep this at the top!

[shraby]

51. Kick

:kick: :kick:

[Me.]

55. Wow Shraby, How Cool To See All This Again

I saved all of them so if there are any missing and plus I have many of the ones that followed the original thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2208623

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2359185

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2408386

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2497919

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2713390

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2754351

Hey H Man look at all the writing you did re: Plame.

[H2O Man]

57. I'll need to review it.

Then I'll determine if I must use a Marxist denial method made famous by Groucho: "I deny everything I said, because everything I said is a lie, and everything I deny is a lie, too."

[Me.]

59. How Very Republican Of You

and so out of character. The original Plame went for over 20 threads, would that be possible again?

[H2O Man]

61. In a short time

the entire subject matter will open up again. It's well on its way now. And I think we will see the old core group, with some of the newer DUers who understand what the case involves, having another 20 plus threads.

There are also some "alternative" Plame threads, which view the case in ways that I don't subscribe to. So people will have plenty of information to consider.

[kohodog]

64. Scanning through some of these old threads is amazing.

Remember how CBS (60 Minutes) was going to blow the lid off the Niger claim but then postponed the show (I don't think it ever aired). This was pre-election and would have been bad for Bush. And the case was close to wrapping up when Cooper and Miller were brought back to the GJ and refused to testify, throwing it back to the courts where it has been being appealed until this weeks decision.

Last year at this time the Plame threads were gaining momentum. I was leaving for the mountains. Tomorrow I return there. The circle is unbroken.

[Me.]

65. Year?

So much has happened since then, it seems like a decade. Hope you'll be able to keep track while you're gone.

[kohodog]

68. We now have access there, and I was going to refrain, but...

This is going to be interesting to say the least. I'll be around for sure!

[Me.]

56. Another Excellent Old Thread On Plame

loaded with info.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159749

[ByeDick]

58. Joseph Wilson killed Dick Cheney's baby.

Link:

http://www.mikehersh.com/All_Roads_Lead_To_Cheney.shtml

[robertpaulsen]

156. This is a nice little article I missed the first time around.

Thanks ByeDick. (Great username!) This is a great summation of what's really going on. I love how he explains the difference between what the misadministration is SAYING and what they are TELLING US.

I'm going to give this a separate post and see if it gets a wider audience.

[ByeDick]

258. Thanks robertpaulsen.

BTW: "He" is me.

[johnfunk]

60. Hmm... Plame fought proliferation. Bolton sabotaged anti-proliferation

One has to wonder if John Bolton was "in the loop" about Plame.

Could it be that her name is one redacted from one or more of those notorious intercepts congressional Democrats want a look at?

Wouldn't it be interesting if he was directly involved in leaking Plame's name -- and compromising not only Plame but everyone in her CIA-contriolled company and one of the most important projects to thwart the spread of WMD-related raw materials in the world?

My money's still on Steve "Weasel Boy" Hadley or Lewis "Screwter" Libby, though...

Will Dear Chimperor and Big Time Dick be cited as unindicted co-conspirators? It's always the cover-up, not the crime, that collapses the top of the political food chain.

Can anyone say high treason?

[Me.]

63. Who Says It's Only Has To Be One Of Them?

There were several people in the room when the "work up" was ordered and they decided to bring the earthmovers out.

Also, comments made by Fitzgerald in court documents was revealed today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1898358

Interesting that he should mention Watergate, the mother of all cover-up attempts.

[Chokey]

66. Plame was outed to show her connection to Wilson

She was the one who appointed him to investigate the Niger connection. Rove hoped that leaking the fact she was married to Wilson might distract from the liar-in-chief's lying in his state of the union address.

[shraby]

69. Read some of the Plame threads...

it goes much deeper than just getting back at Wilson. There is a lot of investigative work on those threads and we came to a much different conclusion. RobertPaulsen's synopsis is a good place to start, as is the Waterman Paper.

[H2O Man]

70. Plame did not "appoint" Wilson

to do anything at CI. It simply isn't possible. It could not have happened, and everyone acquainted with how the agency works recognizes that this is simply a red herring tossed out to confuse matters.

For as long as it has been in business, CI has had people from embassies who do specific jobs for them. Wilson knew those in positions of power in Niger and the surrounding area. There had already been two studies (one from an ambassador, one from the Army) that concluded -- correctly -- that there was no Iraqi-Niger yellow cake transaction. The agency was being pressured by VP Cheney to see if there had possibly been advances made by an Iraqi official that might have been over-looked by the two previous investigations. This was the type of work that Wilson was very familiar with, and this familiarity had nothing to do with his wife's position.

Every piece of evidence that has been brought forth to date shows that when others at CI approached his wife, and asked if she could relay a notification to Wilson that his services were needed, she confirmed that he would be be able to do the proposed job.

Her position at CI was very different. It could not have allowed her to push to have her husband selected to carry out a mission, because she was concerned he was bored in his retirement, and needed some excitement -- which is what the right-wing republicans are pretending happened.

[seemslikeadream]

71. The Plame Case Ain't What You Think

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/30/123531/610

[H2O Man]

73. Strange article ....

I read it earlier, and think it is an example of some of the confusion and misinformation that will be making the rounds.

[Me.]

74. Amen Brother

waiting for the court to decide today. The fact that Cooper is giving it up makes it harder for Miller not to.

[robertpaulsen]

105. This article doesn't get the big picture.

It accurately points out the huge significance of Plame's work regarding WMD, but obsesses over Saddam Hussein and completely misses A.Q. Khan. What Khan was working on was bigger than anything Saddam in his wildest fantasies could ever dream of. It was Khan's Nuclear Walmart that Plame was involved with. Remember Joe Klein's "sting operation" article in Time? This is much bigger than Operation Iraqi Liberation.

[sans-culotte]

163. Plame+DSM=Bush lied us into war!

Just don't let this just be about Rove.
We should quit obsessing over whether or not Rove is the original source. That really doesn't matter.
While I'd like to see him have to share a cell with Rodney Ramrod as much as anyone, it misses the point.
By Rove's own admission, he engaged in trying to smear Wilson by spreading around his wife's name (he only claims he didn't start it) as a "fair game" retaliation for Wilson's pointing out that Bush and team were lying to make their case for war!
Rove, via his admissions, has confirmed that the DSM was true, whether or not he was the original source.
That is the impeachable offense for Bush.
This isn't about Rove in particular anymore. If we make it such, he’ll find a way to weasel out of it. He’s claiming that he wasn’t the original leak, that he only repeated it.
This is about the DSM and how the Plame affair proves it true.
This is about the end of the Bush/PNAC empire builders.

The PNAC/DSM/Plame tutorial.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/printrn20030714.shtml (This is the Novak article that started this whole Plame game)


The 1998 PNAC letter to Clinton proves this admin had a hard-on to go to war to oust Saddam before they ever took office. (PNAC is the neocon group founded by Rumsfeld and Cheney, other notable members incl Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Armitage,…ie; most of shrubs admin. They’re a huge part of understanding this).
The Plame affair, regardless of who was the initial leak, proves that the allegations made in the DSM were true. They were fixing the intel to make their case for war. This admin was so pre-set for war, they didn't even hesitate to smear the name and ruin the career of a covert agent as revenge, not to mention this obviously jeopardizes National Security (Rove's idea of fair game), to keep the truth from getting in the way of the war. All Wilson did was point out that the admin., specifically Bush in his 03 state of the union (his “12 words"), was lying to make the case for war.



Plame+DSM=Bush lied us into war!

This should be the end of shrub!

[Me.]

72. Kick

Judy goes before the judge today. Will she be frogmarched to jail?

[coeur_de_lion]

75. this is so cool

I'm looking at a lot of familiar names from the old old days!

Is this where I go for the reunion of the Plame threads?

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Me.]

77. Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good to see you. It's been far too long.

[coeur_de_lion]

78. I had to come

Couldn't miss the Plame reunion. Um, where is H?

[Me.]

79. Lounging By The Pond?

Floating in the pool on a rubber duckie?

[H2O Man]

80. In my younger years

I often disappeared at reunions and similar things. But I'm older now, and better behaved.

Do we have to wear name tags?

[merh]

82. I promise to be better behaved!

:silly: I have matured myself and will be good. :blush:

[Me.]

83. Only If You Are Incognito

or think we won't know who you are.

[H2O Man]

84. The old fool

on the park bench.

[coeur_de_lion]

98. fake name tags, yes. And disguises

for when the bad men come knocking at our door to find out what we discovered on the internet.

Kidding. Just nametags. OK, like Merh I promise to behave!

It's so good to see everybody!

[H2O Man]

100. Robert, Koho, & I

might be them "bad men" that come knocking. "Okay, Karl, come out with your hands in the air! .... Now, frog-march!"

[coeur_de_lion]

115. Sheesh I had better clean up around here . . . .

Oh, forgot. It's KKKarl you're after. It's going to be interesting, but as we've been doing for over a year we are gonna have to practice patience. 2 senior officials.

Is my memory correct that Karl already testified? Seems like I remember reading that in an old Plame thread.

edited for spelling

[H2O Man]

118. Indeed, he did.

Afterwards, reporters noted he hurried into a waiting limo, and immediately got on his cell phone. I don't think he was ordering lunch.

[merh]

137. I did pmail Tellurian.

I hope the holidays don't delay the receipt of the pmail. I'd hate Tellurian to miss the reunion!

And yes, I do have the bottle of champagne chilling!

And now we have this little fellow to unleash :woohoo:

[coeur_de_lion]

97. I am just chilling on the front porch

with a glass of wine and a cigarette. Admiring my toenails, painted red for the 4th. Waiting until it is time to open the champagne. And you?

I've missed my DU buddies. I still read all the time but no active posting, until the last few days. Plame always gets me excited enough to write.

How are you friend?

:hug:

[H2O Man]

99. Hand me that bottle.

Karl Rove. It ain't gonna look too good for Karl.

[coeur_de_lion]

116. Okay but no hogging the Beaujolais

Leave some for me. It pretty much already doesn't look too good for poor pasty Karl, the difference will be that everyone, not just our fellow DUers, will see him for the Ugly American that he is.

It's funny how folks compare him to James Carville. Several months ago I read an article (can't find it now) that said Rove was the * administration answer to Carville.

[hootinholler]

166. Carville? that's laughable.

Rove has no personality, excepting the incident on the tarmac.

-Hoot

[coeur_de_lion]

209. yeah, damn funny.

Carville ain't pretty but scores of deomcratic women have a crush on him. Me included. Rove? I'm not sure anyone has ever had a crush on that poor boy.

[hootinholler]

215. Um I think Jeffy Boy had one.

Oops, that was for his money, er, sorry.

Myself, I have a lot of respect for James Carville's approach. We need more dems willing to shout BullShit!

So, if women have crushes on JC, then there's hope for me :P

-Hoot

[merh]

81. Another Plame thread alum!

:hi:

[coeur_de_lion]

96. Hey there Merh!

How the heck are you my dear? Do you ever hear from Tellurian?

I am so hopeful that soon this thing will conclude -- I've dreamed of it for over a year. We will finally get to drink that champagne we've had on ice for so long.

[merh]

103. Hello coeur_de_lion!

It is good to see you! :hi:

Yes, every now and then I get a pmail from Tellurian. I'll have to pmail and see if Tellurian is keeping up with this. I would hate it if Tellurian missed out on the celebration. It has been a long year.

[Me.]

113. Post #56

Is a link to a thread started by Tellurian.

[merh]

114. thanks -

I guess we need to try to stir Tellurian. :hi:

[kohodog]

109. The gang's all here! (at least mostly)

To Quote Flounder in Animal House..."This is gonna be great!"

[passy]

85. Hi I'm a Plame newbie asking questions

I was wondering if Bolton knew who Plame was, would somebody in his position naturally know her identity?
The reason I ask is that I remember reading about Bolton asking about NSA intercepts without the names of the "agents" blackened out.
Is it possible that he would have found out who she was from these documents, especially since he was getting the ones about Libya's WMDs, a case she could have been working on?
I hope I'm not asking a stupid question.

[H2O Man]

86. The only stupid question

is the one that remains unasked.

The thinking here is that if indeed Bolton was involved in this, and knew her name, it would have had to have come from his focus on who was investigating WMD issues. Despite administration assurances that the intelligence agencies "failed" the president, and all reported a belief that there were WMD programs in Iraq, this is a lie. Clearly some White House officials were involved in promoting what favored their march to war, while making sure those reports that challenged their position didn't see the light of day. Bolton was one of those officials.

[Me.]

87. Ok, I Thought It Was Today

but now see that it might be next Wed. before Judy goes before the judge. Does she go immediately to jail, or will she be given even more time to sort her affairs out?

[H2O Man]

88. Here's a interesting thought ....

think of how many of the Nixon boys freaked when they were faced with jail? James McCord is worth looking at in a different way, especially in light of the idea that Nixon may have been set up. So take him out of the group, and just look at the ones who were facing incarceration unwillingly. Only G. Gordon Liddy had the guts to go to jail without breaking. And, like him or not, one has to recognize that he had a level of self-discipline that was a tad stronger than poor Judith's.

So, let's see what happens in the next five days!

[H2O Man]

89. PS: I sent two odd pieces

of information to Octafish. They are the types of things that just demand his insights. I'm not sure how closely they relate to Plame per say, but one may help shed light on the White House's media campaign.

[seemslikeadream]

90. ROVE is Matt Cooper's source

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3998590

[Me.]

91. Damn

Cause if the story is true that he didn't know it was against the law to reveal Plame's identity and had a hissyfit with the veeps office when Corn of the The Nation, wrote that it was, then that will let him off the hook. Unless there was a cover-up which would lead to obstruction charges. But there must be more to all this than that, else why would Fitzgerald be going full steam ahead?

[seemslikeadream]

92. Novak said there were two sources, didn't he?

[Me.]

93. Whew!

You're right, I forgot myself for a minute. My bet on #2 is either Libby or Bolton.

[seemslikeadream]

94. More about Rove

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1901680

[H2O Man]

95. Key point.

Not one, but two. Two senior officials.

[hootinholler]

167. Why, that would make a conspiracy, wouldn't it? N/T

[Me.]

101. Latest Twists in Miller/Cooper Case--In Court and In Congress

snip
“Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., said Friday that several unidentified Senate Republicans had placed a hold on a proposed resolution declaring support for Miller and Cooper.

``Cowards!'' Lautenberg said of the Republicans. ``Under the rules, they have a right to refuse to reveal who they are. Sound familiar?''

Lautenberg's resolution is co-sponsored by Sens. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and Christopher Dodd, D-Conn. It says that no purpose is served by imprisoning Miller and Cooper and that the First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees freedom of the press.” Cont….

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000972837

If the pugs are backing away from this that should tell us something.

[H2O Man]

102. Interesting article .....

It sounds like Cooper is bluffing. I hope Ms. Miller enjoys this holiday weekend, and is able to pack her bags.

[coeur_de_lion]

117. whose side are they on? n/t

[Ugnmoose]

119. Little sympathy for Judy

Once it is public information that Rove, et al were behind the leak, who the hell do you think is going to support her rights to protect a traitor. Talk about unpatriotic - there is one for the Right Wing to chew on!

[smurfygirl]

104. nt. just saving for later

[StefanX]

108. DU has performed a great service here

This piece asks some of the most important questions in the investigation of the Plame leak.

[H2O Man]

111. You are right .....

and it answers a few of the most important questions, too.

[Me.]

120. We're Just Getting Started On This

again. Kick.

[coeur_de_lion]

121. Roll call

I see Shraby, Seemslikeadream, H2O Man, Me., Kohodog, RobertPaulsen, Merh, blm, TacticalPeak, and lots of new faces. It is kinda cool to see that none of us gave up on this over the last year or so. We've had a lot of disappointments, a screwed election, and endless delays. We must be the most patient people alive. I am so glad that we are going to see an end (hopefully a happy one) to this whole ordeal.

After this last year I think we all deserve it.

[Me.]

123. I Pm'd LoudSue

So hopefully, if she has time, she'll show up too. I would also like to mention, for those who don't know, that it was Shraby who started the original Plame thread too.

[coeur_de_lion]

127. Wow, good idea. We are missing a few people but looks like

others have taken their place. Make sure to tell Loudsue I said HI!!!

[H2O Man]

125. A couple times in March

a few people posted things that said the case was over. Merh, Me, and myself all attempted to reassure folks otherwise.

[coeur_de_lion]

128. I never gave up hope but I was beginning to worry . . .

I wonder what Joe Wilson has to say these days? Any word from him?

Judging by the article next week is going to be fun. I had a peek over in Freeperland and they are all saying Rove is innocent. Or they are saying Joe Wilson is a Bush hater. Who wouldn't be after what they did to his wife, and to him?

I really want to see it in print. A confirmation from Fitzgerald, something. I don't want there to be any doubt, even for freepers.

[H2O Man]

129. There was the wonderful

article, linked by Me, where Fitzgerald refered to this as similar to Watergate.

[coeur_de_lion]

131. Was that beautiful or what?

This case is the only ray of hope in the fight against the Bush administration. I am so glad to see so many articles, the kind we've been waiting for, appear in the MSM. I still want to see in print that Fitzgerald confirms that Rove was the leak. I guess I'll have to wait awhile.

[coeur_de_lion]

132. Other DU threads are connecting the same dots

that the Plame threads connected a year or so ago. Happy day!

Happy 4th of July for the Plame thread DUers!

:toast:

They don't have a champagne toast for DU yet. Bet they will in a few weeks.

[H2O Man]

134. Happy 4th of July!!!!

This administration thought they could steal patriotism and the flag from us. To paraphrase Bono, we're stealing them back. The contributors to the Plame Threads have provided a valuable service.

[coeur_de_lion]

122. MSNBC Analyst Says 2nd Source Confirms Karl Rove as Plame Leaker

MSNBC Analyst Says 2nd Source Confirms Karl Rove as Plame Leaker

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000972841

NEW YORK Now that Time Inc. has turned over documents to federal court, revealing who its reporter, Matt Cooper, identified as his source in the Valerie Plame/CIA case, speculation runs rampant on the name of that source. Lawrence O'Donnell, senior MSNBC political analyst, now claims that at least two sources have confirmed that the name is--top White House mastermind Karl Rove.

O'Donnell first offered this report Friday night on the syndicated McLaughlin Group political talk show. Today, he went beyond that, writing a brief entry at the Huffington Post blog:

"I revealed in yesterday's taping of the McLaughlin Group that Time magazine's e-mails will reveal that Karl Rove was Matt Cooper's source. I have known this for months but didn't want to say it at a time that would risk me getting dragged into the grand jury.
"McLaughlin is seen in some markets on Friday night, so some websites have picked it up, including Drudge, but I don't expect it to have much impact because McLaughlin is not considered a news show and it will be pre-empted in the big markets on Sunday because of tennis.

"Since I revealed the big scoop, I have had it reconfirmed by yet another highly authoritative source. Too many people know this. It should break wide open this week. I know Newsweek is working on an 'It's Rove!' story and will probably break it tomorrow."

[coeur_de_lion]

124. Hope this isn't a dupe

[H2O Man]

126. It's not.

It is elsewhere on DU, but I like your version much better.

[coeur_de_lion]

130. A case of losers and losers

Interesting article. Any comments?

A case of losers and losers
http://www.lenconnect.com/articles/2005/07/02/news/news05.txt

Saturday, July 2, 2005 12:06 AM EDT

- Commentary by James Briggs
<<snip>>
In some court cases, there are no winners. Just a long list of losers. Such a case took a perilous turn Friday, when Time magazine delivered the notes of White House reporter Matt Cooper to a federal grand jury that is investigating the identity of a source who leaked the name of a CIA agent to three reporters.

The first loser is the CIA agent herself, Valerie Plame, who lost her career as she knew it the day she lost her anonynimity. The ability to remain stealthy is crucial to a CIA agent. That ability has been stolen from Plame for the most childish of reasons.

Plame's husband, former U.S. Ambassador Joseph Wilson, publicly criticized President George W. Bush's case for invading Iraq. It is presumed that a White House official, in retaliation for Wilson's criticisms, then revealed the name of his wife to reporters in 2003.

That brings us to the next losers: syndicated columnist Robert Novak, New York Times reporter Judith Miller and Cooper. Novak became the first one to publish Plame's name in a 2003 column, citing two unidentified Bush administration officials as sources. Cooper was second, writing a story about her for Time. Miller never wrote about Plame.
<<snip>>

[Me.]

133. They're Back...

Remember those records from Air Force One? They're mentioned in this new article from Editor & Publisher.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000972843

[kohodog]

135. Wow, what a day!

Just got back to check on what's been going on. Rove may be the conduit and leaker, but who is #2, and who fed Rove the info?

BTW, the E&P article has been pulled. They say it is acurate but outdated????

[Me.]

138. Finger Crossed It's Bolton

Are there any prison cells that have a view of the UN?

[scarletwoman]

136. Time for a kick...

Some of the best DU stuff EVER!

:kick:

sw

[nolabels]

139. It all still looks like circus amusement to me

Nobody was arrested, indited etc. Until one of the several thousands of bush butt sniffers gets shackles I will still saying this is more B.S.

You can't be a criminal till they arrest you (they think)

I am not buying it, the whole CIA \Plame\ Novak Thing is B.S.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=445076

[Me.]

140. Time Will Be The Judge

of whether your theory or ours prevails. I'm banking on ours.

[nolabels]

145. Is there some kind cut off point with the time frame thing

I keep on hearing these stories about people who are supposed to be going to jail or something, yet they keep on being. Guys like Ollie North even get elected to congress. It has been like TWENTY YEARS since we first got word on his doings

The Oliver North File
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/

[Me.]

154. Not Sure What You Mean

The process takes as long as it takes. In this situation it has dragged out primarily because Miller & Cooper have filed appeal after appeal. We are approaching closure on that front this week and the case will go forward.

As for O. North he was convicted but it was overturned on appeal. Others, like G. Gordon Liddy did his time before he became a talk show host. As for the rest of the watergate folk

"one presidential resignation
one vice-presidential resignation
40 government officials indicted or jailed
H.R. Haldeman & John Erlichman (White House staff) resigned 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
John Dean (White House legal counsel) sacked 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
John Mitchell, Attorney-General and Chairman of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP) jailed
Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy (ex-White House staff), planned the Watergate break-in, both jailed
Charles Colson, special counsel to the President jailed
James McCord (Security Director of CREEP) jailed"

[nolabels]

162. Thanks for the list, and please shoot me for being so cynical (not)

Everybody with any political brains knows this current oligarchy (with the help of it's rich friends) has been planning what we are all in now for a long time. The pseudo right-left paradigm has been dead for the last ten years. The federal politicians have been selling out the US national interests to multinational corporations at nausea for quite a while. These lobbyists and their employers dream up these outlandish schemes and get them passed just as fast the ink can dry on them.

While all this is happening, the remnants of the left and what was once a strong peoples movement is pleading for scraps under the dinner table. Pleading to a mostly fascist appointed court system that is very unenlightened. I don't know why any person with even half a brain would be expecting success from any of it. The cards have been stacked very much against it.

Substantive change could come from supporting each other as much as possible. This current corrupt federal government is much like useless numb appendage , it mostly serves no real purpose and just gets in the way.

btw I still say nothing going to happen as long the responses that are expected are given. The idea for the process they are now going through is centuries old, known as byzantine obstruction


Andersen Indicted on Obstruction of Justice Charge

By TSC Staff

03/14/2002 07:35 PM EST
(snip)
In the single-count indictment, the Justice Department portrays Andersen "as a firm, as a partnership" engaged in a coordinated campaign to destroy documents after Enron declared bankruptcy. Andersen was Enron's auditor and has been severely criticized for failing to raise warning flags about the energy trader's Byzantine accounting procedures before the firm's dramatic demise last fall.

The indictment alleges Andersen employees "were instructed by Andersen partners and others to destroy immediately documentation relating to Enron and told to work overtime if necessary to accomplish the destruction." According to prosecutors, parallel shredding efforts were carried out in Houston; Portland, Ore.; Chicago; and London.
(snip)
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/marketfeatures/10013154.html

[Me.]

165. They Are Not Gods

Though at times it seems they wear cloaks of invincibility, and they keep getting away with the cash in the till. But they didn't make this universe and they don't own it however much they like to think that they do. As for the "gods", well I think Hubris and Nemesis are beginning to cast their shadow over these who dared to think they could fly too close to the sun or shoot a bullet at a comet.

They are like illusionists who have us all believing they have all the power and we have none. But it is just an illusion, which we'd all see if only we'd pull down the curtain. They have no power over us and I believe the next six - nine months will prove that out.

[nolabels]

172. I like your metaphorical thinking

Looking at symbols as an on-ramp to where the ceremony is leading is helpful. I personally don't see any power there and feel people with robes and cloaks have something they are trying to hide. This also makes me see their aura weak. People that walk the walk are as plain as day and will show you without hesitation or vindication any error they see. The guys in the robes are symbolically just markers.

As most as I have been able to observe Law comes from two avenues. The practical and the hierarchical. The common sense of the practical needs not much discussion (unless your making religion a substitute for science) but the hierarchal gives us order and a direction to turn. We are, as a people going to have to abandon, sooner or later, the direction we are turned in because it has no order.

If it comes six months or ten years from now I couldn't speculate but I do know the pent up account is owed and will get paid back. Everything in universe exists in equilibrium. The ancient greeks said traveling the middle road was best for many reasons, but never because it was exciting (that's when the other virtue of patience kicks in)

[H2O Man]

155. Right.

Is there a term limit on Representative North there in the land you inhabit?

[H2O Man]

141. People can't be arrested

until the grand jury returns indictments. The grand jury can't determine if it will (or will not) return indictments until its investigation is completed. It could not be completed until after all the reporters' appeals were finished.

Real life and a circus might be confused by those without understanding of the legal system. This ain't TV.

[Me.]

142. Kickin' It Today H.

any fireworks up your way?

[robertpaulsen]

143. Just in today, from sabra:

CNN: Newsweek: Rove spoke to reporter before leak

<<SNIP>>
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/03/cooper.rove /

Newsweek: Rove spoke to reporter before leak
Bush adviser didn't reveal confidential information, attorney says
From Elaine Quijano
CNN Washington Bureau



Sunday, July 3, 2005; Posted: 2:16 p.m. EDT (18:16 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Newsweek magazine is reporting that e-mails between Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and his editors show that Karl Rove, President Bush's top political adviser, spoke to Cooper in the days before a CIA operative's identity was revealed in the media, but it wasn't clear what Cooper and Rove discussed.

Rove's attorney told CNN his client did not disclose any confidential information.

Attorney Robert Luskin confirmed that Cooper called Rove in July 2003 but said he's "not characterizing the subject matter of that conversation."

A special prosecutor is investigating whether senior Bush administration officials leaked the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame to the media in retaliation after her husband wrote an opinion piece critical of the administration.

Cooper and New York Times reporter Judith Miller face jail on civil contempt charges for refusing to reveal their sources to a federal grand jury. Judge Thomas Hogan has set a final hearing on Wednesday and will make a decision after that.

<</SNIP>>

[robertpaulsen]

147. My thought on this quote from the Newsweek article on Rove:

Rove's attorney Luskin spouted off a whole lot of bullshit, but he did say this:

Luskin said prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald "has confirmed repeatedly, most recently last week, that he (Rove) is not a target of the investigation."

Being a lawyer, Luskin is well versed in couching his terms specifically. What does he mean by "target"? My take on this is that Rove is not the "leaker", but did receive his information on Plame from the actual leaker, and then spread the info to reporters, which is how Luskin may be technically correct when he says Rove is not the "target". Rove is on the periphery as a secondary source.

Tomayto, Tomahto, he's still heading for a FROGMARCH! :bounce:

edited for spelling

[H2O Man]

150. Rove is not the target.

His illegal behaviors are the target.

Black and white are opposites.
Black and white are identical.

Lawyers.

[robertpaulsen]

151. Here's some early dirt on John Bolton.

I found this from a thread started by Stefan X:

Plame + Yellowcake + DSM + WHIG + Perjury = Josh's Tectonic Shift?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4011172

==========

Paper Chase
There were 2 separate sets of Iraq documents allegedly proving a uranium deal with Iraq.

I came across something confusing about the original Niger yellowcake story: the seeming existence of two separate sets of documents allegedly proving a uranium deal with Iraq.

Beginning shortly after 9/11, a foreign intelligence service -- maybe the Italians, but my guess is that it was someone else working through the Italians -- starts a drip campaign to persuade the CIA that Iraq is still trying to get the bomb.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the pipe, we have Cheney, constantly pushing for more evidence to show that Iraq is seeking to build a bomb. And, lo and behold, each time Cheney pushes, a new report surfaces from an unnamed foreign intelligence service claiming Iraq is trying to buy uranium. And whenever the skeptics push back with evidence that casts doubt on the thesis, yet another foreign intelligence report surfaces, with more detailed, albeit, false information.

By late summer of 2002, the battle has ended in something like a stalemate.

The deadlock is broken in September by the MI6, the British intelligence agency, which provides the Blair government with information for a white paper on Iraq's nuclear program. The paper charges that Iraq "has sought the supply of significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

But, while all the journalistic and investigative sturm und drang has focused on the October 2002 Italian forgeries, it seems to me the more interesting question is the origin of the first Niger documents -- the ones provided to the CIA in the fall and winter of 2001-02.

The later Italian forgeries were obvious fakes -- so obvious you can only wonder about the true motives of those who tried to pass them off. Were they really designed to implicate Iraq? Or, as Seymour Hersh has suggested, where they deliberately planted in order to discredit the Cheney White House?

Sy Hersch: "The agency guys were so pissed at Cheney," the former officer said. "They said, 'O.K, we’re going to put the bite on these guys.' "

What about the original Niger documents -- the ones the CIA and the DIA found so credible? Who created them? And what was their exact relationship to the SISMI, or MI6, or the CIA, or the Cheney White House?

The really intriguing question is this: Is there anybody out there armed with subpoena power -- like, say, the FBI or Patrick Fitzgerald -- who is trying to find out the full story?

-- Billmon



I went to Billmon's blog and found this link to a Sy Hersh article with this info on Bolton:

A few months after George Bush took office, Greg Thielmann, an expert on disarmament with the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research, or INR, was assigned to be the daily intelligence liaison to John Bolton, the Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control, who is a prominent conservative. Thielmann understood that his posting had been mandated by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who thought that every important State Department bureau should be assigned a daily intelligence officer. “Bolton was the guy with whom I had to do business,” Thielmann said. “We were going to provide him with all the information he was entitled to see. That’s what being a professional intelligence officer is all about.”

But, Thielmann told me, “Bolton seemed to be troubled because INR was not telling him what he wanted to hear.” Thielmann soon found himself shut out of Bolton’s early-morning staff meetings. “I was intercepted at the door of his office and told, ‘The Under-Secretary doesn’t need you to attend this meeting anymore.’ ” When Thielmann protested that he was there to provide intelligence input, the aide said, “The Under-Secretary wants to keep this in the family.”

Eventually, Thielmann said, Bolton demanded that he and his staff have direct electronic access to sensitive intelligence, such as foreign-agent reports and electronic intercepts. In previous Administrations, such data had been made available to under-secretaries only after it was analyzed, usually in the specially secured offices of INR. The whole point of the intelligence system in place, according to Thielmann, was “to prevent raw intelligence from getting to people who would be misled.” Bolton, however, wanted his aides to receive and assign intelligence analyses and assessments using the raw data. In essence, the under-secretary would be running his own intelligence operation, without any guidance or support. “He surrounded himself with a hand-chosen group of loyalists, and found a way to get C.I.A. information directly,” Thielmann said.

In a subsequent interview, Bolton acknowledged that he had changed the procedures for handling intelligence, in an effort to extend the scope of the classified materials available to his office. “I found that there was lots of stuff that I wasn’t getting and that the INR analysts weren’t including,” he told me. “I didn’t want it filtered. I wanted to see everything—to be fully informed. If that puts someone’s nose out of joint, sorry about that.” Bolton told me that he wanted to reach out to the intelligence community but that Thielmann had “invited himself” to his daily staff meetings. “This was my meeting with the four assistant secretaries who report to me, in preparation for the Secretary’s 8:30 a.m. staff meeting,” Bolton said. “This was within my family of bureaus. There was no place for INR or anyone else—the Human Resources Bureau or the Office of Foreign Buildings.”

more...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact

These 4 paragraphs alone should keep Bolton from his UN confirmation. All this information in its totality should make Bolton a person of interest in the blown cover of Valerie Plame, which I'm sure is exactly what he is to Fitzgerald at a minimum.

[H2O Man]

152. Good work!

Fascinating material. (The more of this I read, the better of a job I recognize we did last year!)

[robertpaulsen]

153. I can't wait to hear more from Hersh about recent developments.

It does seem like many things that Hersh was trying to expose in the past: Bolton, Cheney, lies about Iraq, lies about Pakistan all seem to be coming together with the Plame case. I hope he comes out with a new article or makes some public comment dealing with this situation soon.

And yes, H2O Man, we really did do an incredible job putting the puzzle together!

[robertpaulsen]

158. Here's Hersh again on Cheney and the original Niger documents.

In the fall of 2001, soon after the September 11th attacks, the C.I.A. received an intelligence report from Italy’s Military Intelligence and Security Service, or sismi, about a public visit that Wissam al-Zahawie, then the Iraqi Ambassador to the Vatican, had made to Niger and three other African nations two and a half years earlier, in February, 1999. The visit had been covered at the time by the local press in Niger and by a French press agency. The American Ambassador, Charles O. Cecil, filed a routine report to Washington on the visit, as did British intelligence. There was nothing untoward about the Zahawie visit. “We reported it because his picture appeared in the paper with the President,” Cecil, who is now retired, told me. There was no article accompanying the photograph, only the caption, and nothing significant to report. At the time, Niger, which had sent hundreds of troops in support of the American-led Gulf War in 1991, was actively seeking economic assistance from the United States.

None of the contemporaneous reports, as far as is known, made any mention of uranium. But now, apparently as part of a larger search for any pertinent information about terrorism, sismi dug the Zahawie-trip report out of its files and passed it along, with a suggestion that Zahawie’s real mission was to arrange the purchase of a form of uranium ore known as “yellowcake.” (Yellowcake, which has been a major Niger export for decades, can be used to make fuel for nuclear reactors. It can also be converted, if processed differently, into weapons-grade uranium.)

What made the two-and-a-half-year-old report stand out in Washington was its relative freshness. A 1999 attempt by Iraq to buy uranium ore, if verified, would seem to prove that Saddam had been working to reconstitute his nuclear program—and give the lie to the I.A.E.A. and to intelligence reports inside the American government that claimed otherwise.

The sismi report, however, was unpersuasive. Inside the American intelligence community, it was dismissed as amateurish and unsubstantiated. One former senior C.I.A. official told me that the initial report from Italy contained no documents but only a written summary of allegations. “I can fully believe that sismi would put out a piece of intelligence like that,” a C.I.A. consultant told me, “but why anybody would put credibility in it is beyond me.” No credible documents have emerged since to corroborate it.

The intelligence report was quickly stovepiped to those officials who had an intense interest in building the case against Iraq, including Vice-President Dick Cheney. “The Vice-President saw a piece of intelligence reporting that Niger was attempting to buy uranium,” Cathie Martin, the spokeswoman for Cheney, told me. Sometime after he first saw it, Cheney brought it up at his regularly scheduled daily briefing from the C.I.A., Martin said. “He asked the briefer a question. The briefer came back a day or two later and said, ‘We do have a report, but there’s a lack of details.’ ” The Vice-President was further told that it was known that Iraq had acquired uranium ore from Niger in the early nineteen-eighties but that that material had been placed in secure storage by the I.A.E.A., which was monitoring it. “End of story,” Martin added. “That’s all we know.” According to a former high-level C.I.A. official, however, Cheney was dissatisfied with the initial response, and asked the agency to review the matter once again. It was the beginning of what turned out to be a year-long tug-of-war between the C.I.A. and the Vice-President’s office.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact

[Me.]

157. 2 Possibles...Niger

<<<snip>>>
“"Kwiatkowski said she could not confirm published reports that OSP worked with a similar ad hoc group in Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office. But she recounts one incident in which she helped escort a group of half a dozen Israelis, including several generals, from the first floor reception area to Feith's office.” Cont…

“Robert Dreyfuss, writing in The Nation, cites a highly placed former intelligence official who points the finger directly at Israel:

"According to the former official, also feeding information to the Office of Special Plans was a secret, rump unit established last year in the office of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel. This unit, which paralleled Shulsky's – and which has not previously been reported – prepared intelligence reports on Iraq in English (not Hebrew) and forwarded them to the Office of Special Plans. It was created in Sharon's office, not inside Israel's Mossad intelligence service, because the Mossad – which prides itself on extreme professionalism – had views closer to the CIA's, not the Pentagon's, on Iraq. This secretive unit, and not the Mossad, may well have been the source of the forged documents purporting to show that Iraq tried to purchase yellowcake uranium for weapons from Niger in West Africa, according to the former official."

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=1031


Ex-Reagan CIA Head: Source Of Fake Niger Document Is Michael Ledeen

“In an interview with the former CIA head of counterterrorism operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, Vincent Cannistaro, he was asked if the documents on Iraq's purchase of uranium from Niger came from Italian intelligence to which he answered in the affirmative.

However according to Cannistaro "…When we're talking about acquiring information on Iraq. It isn't that anyone had a good source on Iraq - there weren't any good sources. The Italian intelligence service, the military intelligence service, was acquiring information that was really being hand-fed to them by very dubious sources. The Niger documents, for example, which apparently were produced in the United States, yet were funneled through the Italians."

When the former CIA head of counter-terrorism was asked if a Michael Ledeen had been the one who produced the Iraq documents he said "You'd be very close." Cont…

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/ex-reagan_cia_head_source_fake_niger_docs_ledeen.htm

[Me.]

159. More Ledeen +

A MAJOR SPY SCANDAL IS BREAKING IN ITALY


<<<snip>>>
“Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga has quickly distanced the parallel intelligence network from official intelligence and police networks by claiming the two men arrested are just criminals and not tied to the Italian Gladio, which a number of intelligence experts believe Cossiga once headed. Cossiga also defended the secret U.S. intelligence operation in Italy that is presently under attack by Milan prosecutors. Cossiga said that by not telling the Italian government of the operation, the U.S. avoided having its secret plans spread throughout the Middle East. By mentioning both the Milan and Genoa cases, Cossiga may have unintentionally linked the two. The parallel intelligence network is reportedly the outgrowth of a Gladio network consisting of six divisions that operated in Italy, North Africa, and the Middle East during the Cold War. The P-2 Lodge, headed by fascist leader Licio Gelli, reportedly maintained close links to former Secretary of State Alexander Haig and his one-time foreign affairs adviser Michael Ledeen. A number of SISMI agents and assets have also been tied to the group, including Francesco Pazienza, a SISMI agent, and Rocco Martino, who said he was the source of the faked Niger yellowcake uranium documents that were laundered through Rome and used as proof by the Bush White House that Saddam Hussein was shopping for uranium in Niger. That charge prompted the CIA to send Ambasssador Joseph Wilson to Niger resulting in a retaliatory exposure by the White House of the CIA's covert weapons of mass destruction counter-proliferation network.

Italian sources report that the Milan case against the Americans and the Genoa case against the private Italian network may be linked in another way. The reported CIA station chief in Milan, Honduran-born Robert Seldon Lady (whose name may be an alias and whose CIA connections may be incorrect or overstated) was, prior to his assignment in Milan, in charge of a covert American unit in Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua charged with penetrating anti-American groups and taking them over. It is now believed that Lady was in charge of a similar operation to turn Abu Omar and others into intelligence assets for the Americans. Abu Omar, according to Albanian intelligence sources, assisted the U.S. with intelligence on Islamic militants in Albania. It is also believed that the late Deputy SISMI chief Nicola Calipari became aware of information in Iraq that linked the control of terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere to a "third level" in "an anti-terrorism country." Calipari was shot to death by U.S. troops while transporting freed Italian hostage and journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad International Airport. The U.S. ruled the shooting an "accident." Abu Omar may have become a hot potato for the Americans after Calipari discovered links between the Americans and terrorist groups in Iraq and elsewhere -- and a decision was made to conduct a "rendition" of the imam to Egypt to get him out of circulation. Abu Omar, also said to have been a credible intelligence source, may have also become aware of U.S. connections to terrorist groups.” Cont…

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/diplomatic/foreign.htm

[rumpel]

164. Yes, the laundering of the documents to appear legit, according to Sy

Hersh's book "Chain of Command" boild down to this:

Just as robertpaulsen quotes page 226:

Fall 2001: CIA receives intelligence report from SISMI, from Italy about the public visit of Wissam al-Zahawie to Niger in 1999.
CIA finds the report to be not credible

Cheney does not like the analysis

Libby, Wolfowitz and Bolton bacame increasingly sectretive regarding Iraq's WMD intelligence, "there was a reluctance to let the military and civilian analysts on the staff of intelligence."

February 2002 CIA send Mr. Wilson to Niger. "He was known as an idependent diplomat who had put himself in harm's way to help American citizens abroad."
Mr. Wilson was not shown any documents, but was told "of a purported memorandum of agreement"

In Niger "Wilson also learned that there was no uranium available to sell: it had all been pre-sold to Niger's Japanese and European consortium partners. (p229)

March 2002 former WH official: "It was understood by many in the WH, Bush had already decided, in his own mind, to go to war." (p229)

Late summer 2002 WH sharply escalates the nuclear rhetoric
( in late July/August 2002 WHIG is formed)

(DSM)

September 2002 The British dossier mentioned Iraq's pursuit of African uranium.
(There we go)

IAEA unsuccessfully starts to seek information on evidence of the uranium claim from Washington and London.

October 2002 Elisabeth Burba, reporter for Panorama receives documents from an Italian businessman and security consultant. He gave her 22 pages of documents mostly written in French, some with the letterhead of the Iraq Embassy to the Holy See.

Burba asks the editor in chief Carlo Rossella that she wanted to go to Niger to verify the story. "At that point, however, Panorama's editor in chief, Carlo Rossella, who is known for his ties to the Berlusconi government, told Burba to turn the documents over to the American Embassy for authentication." (p232)
and so she did.
(Why not their own intelligence agency! this smells)

Burba did travel to Niger and found "that the shipping companies and banks were to small and ill-equipped to handle such a transaction."

"Two former CIA officials provided slightly different accounts of what happened next. "The embassy was alerted that the papers were coming", the first former official told me, "and it passed them directly to Washington without even vetting them inside the embassy". Once the documents were in Washington, they were forwarded by the C.I.A. to the Pentagon, he said. "Everybody knew at every step of the way that they were false-until they got to the Pentagon, where they were believed.

The second former official, Vincent Cannistraro, who served as chief counterterrorism operations and analysys, told me that the Burba documents were given to the American Embassy, which passed them on to the C.I.A.'s chief of station in Rome, who forwarded them to Washington." (p232-233)

( Me's post #151: “In an interview with the former CIA head of counterterrorism operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, Vincent Cannistaro, he was asked if the documents on Iraq's purchase of uranium from Niger came from Italian intelligence to which he answered in the affirmative.

Now, Mr. Cannistraro did the documents come from Ms Burba or the Italian intelligence?!)

December 7, 2002, Iraq provides a 12,000 page report to the UN Security Council denying having a WMD arsenal.

Jan 2003 State of the Union speech: Bush "credits" British intelligence for the Niger uranium.

March IAEA El Baradei publicly debunks Niger documents.
"The senior I.A.E.A. investigators, as we have seen took only a few hours, with the aid of Google, to determine that the papers were fake" (p235)

Further Sy Hersh delves into who fabricated these docs, and he details the British M16 having had a propaganda program against Iraq since 1997 the source a former Clinton WH official. it says "among other things, spreading false information."

Another explanation provided by a former senior intelligence official, is that some CIA guys got so fed up and deliberately planted this forgery to embarrass Cheney & Co, but it got out of hand.

Overall, I believe Blair (&Co) Berlusconi (&Co) and Bush (&Co) are complicit in fabricating intelligence, misleading the public in order to justify and start an illegal war.
I actually think the Niger docs were the creation of Rove & Associates Advertising a.k.a WHIG.
So Mr. Wilson stepping up and revealing the lie, and possibly Ms Plame being in WMD circles being in the way is the reason the WHIG propaganda team outing her.
Perhaps Bolton being part of this inner circle, was holding Powell ill-informed at the State dept. I remember Powell not being included in many of the administration talks.


The BBB's Club of war profiteers.

Does someone know in the timeline, if Bush had a meeting with Berlusconi sometime in the summer or early fall of 2002?

So can we finally impeach now? All of them? Or is it going to be International Court in absentia...

[ngGale]

170. Re: Bush + Berlusconi ...

14 September 2002

Transcript: U.N. Decision on Iraq a Defining Moment Say Bush, Berlusconi, September 14, 2002

http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_09/alia/a2091306.htm
______________________________________________________

Maybe this will help!

[H2O Man]

160. CNN Headline News .... (!!!)

They just reported that they have confirmed phone records show contacts between Rove and Cooper just before the Novak article. Rove "Can't remember" the topic of conversation. This is why Fitz wants Cooper to testify, I suspect.

[yodermon]

161. H2O Man originally forecast

in the first Plame thread, July 14 2004 as a possible indictment date.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1902738#1910680

Perhaps he was just a year early?

[hootinholler]

168. Ya know, I'm wondering aloud...

What insight Sibel might have on these issues. I've been hoping that Fitz would have an opportunity to subpeona her.

I have a gut feeling that the names she's familiar with coincide with some of those on Bolt-on's list.

-Hoot

[robertpaulsen]

182. If you're talking about Sibel Edmonds...

That would be a dream come true. However, unless I'm mistaken, I believe her gag order that Count Ashcroft placed on her is still in effect. Unless there is some rule that gag orders don't apply to grand juries that I don't know about, I don't think she would be able to testify. What a shame. :mad:

[hootinholler]

202. Yes, and yes the order is in effect, but...

I think that Fitz could get it lifted. I think she has seen where it all shifted after BCCI got too hot.

-Hoot

[ngGale]

169. There is one person who strikes fear in me more than ...

any other. A.Q. Kahn - this man IS real. You don't hear his name mentioned much in the media. I spent a lot of time researching A.Q. and he is one bad boy. His connections are even scarier! :scared:

[dorktv]

171. Has anyone sent this on to Joe? I could if you guys have not.

[Me.]

175. If You Think He'd Be Interested & Have The Contact Info

Why not?

[robertpaulsen]

184. I second that! Send it to Joe.

I seem to recall that halfway through the Plame threads last year, someone had Joe Wilson's contact info and was sending him info and getting positive feedback. I'll have to read back and see if that was for real or something my wildly optimistic personality imagined.

[Me.]

190. I Sent A Letter Of Support

and told him about the Plame threads. He sent me a wonderful personal note saying thank you and how much he appreciated the support he was receiving.

[coeur_de_lion]

173. America's Ministry of Propaganda Exposed -- Part One

America's Ministry of Propaganda Exposed -- Part One
By Gar Smith / The-Edge
November 7, 2003

A Strategy of Lies: How the White House Fed the Public a Steady Diet of Falsehoods
http://www.earthisland.org/project/newsPage2.cfm?newsID=491&pageID=177&subSiteID=44

<<snip>>
Bush administration officials are probably having second thoughts about their decision to play hardball with former US Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Joe Wilson is a contender. When you play hardball with Joe, you better be prepared to deal with some serious rebound.

After Wilson wrote a critically timed New York Times essay exposing as false George W. Bush's claim that Iraq had purchased uranium from Niger, high officials in the White House contacted several Washington reporters and leaked the news that Wilson's wife was a CIA agent.

Wilson isn't waiting for George W. Bush to hand over the perp. In mid-October, the former ambassador began passing copies of an embarrassing internal report to reporters across the US. The-Edge has received copies of this document.

The 56-page investigation was assembled by USAF Colonel (Ret.) Sam Gardiner. "Truth from These Podia: Summary of a Study of Strategic Influence, Perception Management, Strategic Information Warfare and Strategic Psychological Operations in Gulf II" identifies more than 50 stories about the Iraq war that were faked by government propaganda artists in a covert campaign to "market" the military invasion of Iraq.
<<snip>>

Someone sent this article to H2O, who asked me to post it.

[DemonFighterLives]

174. There is a revival of this topic on another site

I picked up "their" picture.



http://dweebcabal.com/main/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[robertpaulsen]

180. What a great picture!

I wonder if their wallet is the same as Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction. Wouldn't surprise me.

[Me.]

176. kick

[coeur_de_lion]

177. a blurb about Fitzgerald in an old Washington Post article . . . .

Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed
By Walter Pincus and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 17, 2004; Page A01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47812-2004Jun16?language=printer
<<snip>>
At yesterday's hearing, commissioner Fred F. Fielding questioned the staff's finding of no apparent cooperation between bin Laden and Hussein. He pointed to a sentence in the first sealed indictment in 2001 of the al Qaeda members accused of the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; that sentence said al Qaeda reached an understanding with Iraq that they would not work against each other and would cooperate on acquiring arms.

Patrick J. Fitzgerald, now a U.S. attorney in Illinois, who oversaw the African bombing case, told the commission that reference was dropped in a superceding indictment because investigators could not confirm al Qaeda's relationship with Iraq as they had done with its ties to Iran, Sudan and Hezbollah. The original material came from an al Qaeda defector who told prosecutors that what he had heard was secondhand.
<<snip>>

I thought it was pretty interesting!

[H2O Man]

178. Very interesting.

The DU Plame Team is lucky to have had you come out of retirement.

[coeur_de_lion]

179. my point was

that I didn't know that Fitzgerald had anything to do with investigating Al Qaeda. But he did so long before the Plame case landed in his lap. He knows better than anybody -- no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. It makes me feel a lot better about Fitzgerald as prosecutor.

Either no one mentioned this during the Plame thread marathon or I missed it.

Seems like somehow by accident the * administration picked the perfect prosecutor for the Plame leak case. Ashcroft recused and an expert on Osama Bin Laden took over! Hah!

What ever happened to Ashcroft? What is the little fella doing nowadays? Is he covering up statues and hiding from calico cats?

[H2O Man]

181. Do you remember a scene in the movie "Serpico"

where a bad cop tosses Frank some cash, and says, "Here." Frank tosses it back, and explains he doesn't take money. The bad cop looks at him, and says, "I thought you were okay?"

Same thing here, to a large extent. But it's worth keeping in mind that the person who picked Fitzgerald may have been very aware of what he was doing. As you know, Ashcroft recused himself after allowing some time for a cover-up. Ashcroft had a clear conflict of interest, because Karl Rove had served as a consultant to him in the past. In fact, Rove got Ashcroft the Attorney General's position.

Last night, on a related thread, Jackpine Radical asked about who could potentially fire Fitz? Well, when Ashcroft recused himself, his deputy, Jim Comey, picked Fitzgerald. Comey and the Bulldog are friends; in fact, Fitzgerald is the godfather of one of Comey's children.

Comey delegated complete authority -- meaning equal to that of the Attorney General -- to Fitzgerald. But the Justice Department (meaning the White House) refuses to recognize Comey's formal delegation of power. As things heat up, Jackpine Radical brings up something that I don't like to think of as a very real possibility.

[robertpaulsen]

183. Uh oh. You mean * could fire Fitz like Nixon fired Archibald Cox?

Or would Gonzalez be the one to have that authority? What an ugly possibility, yet like Nixon's firing of Cox it would prove to the public that a cover-up was taking place.

[H2O Man]

185. It would mean

the House of Representatives would begin hearings, I am sure, and they would have greater power to access White House information than Fitzgerald.

[robertpaulsen]

186. It will be very interesting to see what happens with that.

Especially interesting if * chose that route would be the timing if a firing took place. Would it happen after indictments come out, out of desperation to stop any criminal trial, or before in a misguided attempt to stop indictments? Too much has leaked out already that either choice would backfire. It's just a question of how slow the burn would be on the misadministration.

[coeur_de_lion]

198. Ugh. I guess we have to consider that

they may later decide to question Comey's authority. But so much about the case is so well known, even by us folks here on DU. So how could they get away with getting rid of Fitzgerald after all this crap has been uncovered? Just my opinion, but they would look real silly to say he has no authority after the investigation is completed and indictments are about to be handed down.

I dunno. They've gotten away with an awful lot, but it seems to me that Fitz would know how to fight them legally and would have the authority to do so.

What think you?

[Me.]

199. Way Back

Wasn't it mentioned on old Plame that his nickname was Eliot Ness?

[coeur_de_lion]

201. if it was I never saw it. I took a couple long breaks, so might have been

mentioned. I'm rather pleased with him, I have to say. It takes a good Irishman to stand up to these ***holes. I hope he gives 'em hell. From his comments comparing Plame to Watergate I think he will. I am silly with anticipation.

[coeur_de_lion]

207. see post 206 for your "Eliot Ness" comparison

The article posted there does indeed call him The Untouchable.

[robertpaulsen]

188. I don't recall seeing it. Good find, coeur_de_lion!

Sometimes, for all their Machiavellian machinations, the * misadministration is just plain dumb, and the mistake of appointing Fitzgerald may be their Waterloo(gate). If they had known about Fitzgerald's previous stance on OBL, he would not have been chosen.

Where's Ashcroft? Probably still recovering from his colon problems. My hope is that he's genuinely retired. My fear is that * will choose him to be the next Supreme Court Justice. :scared:

[H2O Man]

189. I think he's too ill.

I think they will look to make a trade in on a newer model.

[H2O Man]

191. PS: Robert, did you know

that the fellow arrested in the neocon spy scandal, Mr. Franklin, is a "capable speaker of Farsi"? I was e-mailed an article with a wealth of information, including that little piece.

Perhaps the researcher who found this article will post a link!

[Me.]

192. Here You Go

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_fact

[H2O Man]

193. Thank you.

Now everyone read that short article. There will be a test on it.

[robertpaulsen]

194. WHOA! Let me take a crack at this.

I found this article with an e-mail response:

Franklin works for Dougie Feith, who is one of Wolfie's top boys.

He worked the Iran desk, and goes way back with the Mossad. He speaks Farsi.

Posted by: Gabby Hayes at August 31, 2004 05:57 PM

http://www.newshounds.us/2004/08/31/ap_reports_dod_infiltrated_by_spy.php

And another:

August 30, 2004
Franklin, Flipped: Why are Larry Franklin's defenders trying to portray him as a desk grunt?

Here's a good bio of Larry Franklin, the Pentagon Iran analyst who is under FBI investigation for allegedly passing classified US Iran documents to the lobbying group AIPAC. Franklin is reported by the New York Times and Newsweek to have been cooperating with the FBI since earlier this month. The bio is from Ha'aretz's Nathan Gutman:

Franklin, a religious Catholic in his late 50s, lives in Kearneysville, West Virginia . . . his wife Patricia and their five children . . . Franklin has a doctorate in East Asian studies from St. John's University . . . and speaks Farsi, Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese . . .

In conversations about Franklin with his colleagues, one of the words that comes up again and again is "naive." He is described as an ideologue who believes wholeheartedly in the neo-conservative approach . . .

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001074.html

Someone asked the question earlier if Sibel Edmonds could testify in this case. My response was I don't think so since Count Ashcroft put the gag order on her. I hope I'm wrong, Larry Franklin could turn out to be a bridge between both scandals.

Thanks for the heads-up H2O Man!

[H2O Man]

195. Yes.

When I saw that phrase, I thought that you would enjoy it.

[robertpaulsen]

196. Here's another one:

US military insider exposed as Israeli agent

"The Insider" mailing list article, 05 May 2005.



Pentagon analyst accused of spying for Israel lobby

A Pentagon analyst was arrested by the FBI yesterday on charges of passing classified information to the main pro-Israel lobby in Washington.

Larry Franklin, a Farsi-speaking Iran specialist at the Defence Intelligence Agency, surrendered to the FBI yesterday and was expected to appear before a judge in Virginia.

He is reported to have given secret documents to two senior officials from the American Israel public affairs committee, its policy director, Steven Rosen, and Iran specialist, Keith Weissman. Some of the information found its way to the Israeli government and the committee sacked the two officials last month.

The nature of the classified documents is not clear. According to some reports it involved potential attacks against US forces in Iraq, possibly involving Iranian agents operating in that country.
Mr Franklin's arrest is a serious blow to the group of neo-conservative ideologues who worked for the under-secretary of defence for policy, Douglas Feith. They played an important role in taking the US into the Iraq war, and have since then advocated regime change in Iran. Mr Feith, 58, is due to retire this summer and his adviser on the Middle East, Harold Rhode, is also reported to have left his job.

more...

http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=1160

Larry Franklin was an Iran specialist. Dick Cheney criticized sanctions against Iran in 1998:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/articles/halliburtonprimer.html

Hmmm...I like the trail I'm following with this!

[H2O Man]

197. Yeah.

Pieces of the puzzle fit together at opportune times.

[hootinholler]

205. That was me asking about Sibel...

I thought the AIPAC stuff was independent of both Sibel's situation and the Plame game. If Franklin was a Turkey expert rather than Iran it could be linked up to Sibel easier. All I was saying was that my money was on overlap of names on Bolton's list and Sibel's list.

Right now I'm being dense about the significance of this in relation to the whole Plame affair. Can you take a few some time and spell it out? Or are you saying that Wolfie was the leaker and Rove is taking the fall?

-Hoot

[robertpaulsen]

222. I'm using the PNAC as a common denominator in my research.

I may be taking a wild crap in the woods with that approach, but ideologically speaking, the PNAC is the (evil) soul driving every misadministration decision. Unfortunately I haven't had as much time as last year to devote to researching this, but Franklin's link to Feith means the PNAC is linked with all three scandals.

I wish I could spell this out more clearly, but I'm still trying to make sense which direction the tentacles point. Interesting that you bring up Wolfie. Have you seen this?

Wolfowitz's extortion violates U.S. law

By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

December 16, 2003—On December 5, the rodent-like Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz threw down the Bush regime's latest gauntlet to the rest of the world. A charter-member of the chickenhawk neoconservatives, Wolfowitz, whose arrogance has no limit, named 61 countries eligible for Iraqi reconstruction projects. It is apparent that Wolfowitz had no problem violating the 1977 U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) by promising prime contracts for countries that, in return, send troops to Iraq.

However, if the Justice Department were on the ball, it would be opening up a criminal investigation of Wolfowitz's actions (not likely, considering the Justice Department is headed by another ethically-tainted neoconservative, John Ashcroft). The FCPA states that it is "a crime for U.S. companies to bribe a foreign government official for the specified corrupt purposes. Companies violating the criminal prohibitions face maximum fines of $500,000. Individuals acting on behalf of such companies face a maximum fine of $10,000 and 5 years in jail." The law also covers payments made to foreign officials for the purposes of obtaining business.

Now, here's the rub. Although Wolfowitz is not acting as a "company," he clearly has a questionable relationship with people like Richard Perle, who has, according to Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker, attempted to extort contracts from Saudi Arabia for his Trireme Partners. It is noteworthy that Saudi Arabia (the birthplace of 15 of the 19 alleged September 11 hijackers) is eligible for Iraqi prime contracts while Canada and Mexico are not. Vice President Dick Cheney, who also has a questionable relationship with Wolfowitz through a parallel and unofficial intelligence organization, continues to collect a deferred salary from Halliburton, a company that is reaping billions from Iraqi reconstruction contracts.

Considering the close relationship of Wolfowitz to Trireme and Halliburton, the Justice Department could argue that as a result of these obvious conflicts of interest, Wolfowitz is acting as an "individual acting on behalf" of companies engaged in bribery and extortion.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/121603Madsen/121603madsen.html

Actually, this link is expired, I copied it from Plame Thread #14. But I don't think he's the leaker, Cheney had the biggest motive with his ties to A.Q. Khan. But the entire PNAC cabal was in the loop.

This thread shows the PNAC links with Sibel Edmonds:

Sibel Edmonds translated Farsi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2238307

[hootinholler]

231. Thanks for that, here's one

back at ya.

-Hoot

[robertpaulsen]

246. That's a great one. I hope everyone one here reads that.

Especially in light of recent events. That may be the reason why Cooper was let off the hook and Miller's in jail. Cooper's such a sniveler, he would have been someone's bitch the first night there. Miller seems like she could sweat it out until October no problem.

What Hogan needs to do is pull a Sirica and sentence her for 45 years or until she testifies, whichever comes first. If indeed she is convicted of obstruction of justice, as has been hinted, then I think Hogan would have the authority to do this. Hopefully Fitzgerald will push for that.

[coeur_de_lion]

200. Once again, just my opinion but

I think the outing of Plame was a pretty stupid miscalculation from the go. I don't think they knew what a serious crime it was until it was too late. That is actually the thing that scares me. Because from the little bit I've read about Rove's defense it seems to be partly centered around that -- he didn't think it was a crime. The other part is along the lines of "I didn't leak it until after Novak's article."

I think they had malevolent intentions toward both Plame and Wilson, but didn't consult with an attorney before making the stupid move of revealing a covert agent's identity. Fitzgerald was the second mistake. Just goes to show how very desperate these * people are.

Ooooooooh, Ashcroft as a Justice would be awful. I can see the headlines now: statues covered everywhere, calico cats massacred, and he would sing at every meeting. Darn good thing that has no chance of happening.

So you remember seeing the picture of * glaring at Ashcroft and Ashcroft looking as if he were about to cry? It was in the news about a year ago. I thought to myself at the time that his days were numbered. They were! I didn't know he was ill, though.

[robertpaulsen]

223. Oh yes! The height of stupidity.

As I said to H2O Man on another thread, it shocked the hell out of the misadministration when Wilson wrote What I Didn't Find in Africa, which was basically a pre-emptive strike against the cabal coordinating his frame-up. So, like a wounded bear, they struck out savagely against his wife without thinking of the consequences. Now they will have to pay the price.

No, I never saw that photo of Ashcroft! I hope someone finds it and posts it here. I do believe that his health problems are genuine, or he would still be working. Unless * punished him for hiring Fitz!

[coeur_de_lion]

244. the photo was posted on DU a really long time ago

I'll do a search and look for it.

[coeur_de_lion]

245. found the photo, here it is . . . .

The one I saw showed Ashcroft a little more clearly, but this is another version of the same shot.

The caption on the DU thread went something like "George is mad at Johnny and Johnny feels sad."

[robertpaulsen]

247. Damn! If looks could kill...

Wonder who Ashcroft left out at the daily prayer meeting?

[coeur_de_lion]

248. too funny, huh?

great photographer, caught * in an unguarded moment, one of those pictures that tells a story . . . .

He always tries to put on an aw-shucks Texas good ol' boy act. The photo shows that there is another side, and I bet his cabinet sees this face a lot more often than his good natured face.

I saw him on TV not long ago arguing about some appointment of his that the Democrats were blocking. I swear, he was behaving just like a petulant child. Someone was trying to stop him getting his way and he just had a hissy fit. I half expected him to stamp his feet and threaten to go tell his Mommy.

It wasn't long after this was taken that Ashcroft resigned, for health reasons.

[Me.]

187. More Than Interesting

And I do wonder, along the line of H's suggestion below, if Fitzgerald was slipped in, without the Bushinistas realizing what they were getting. It would be so great if someone finally pulled a fast one on them. Wonder what Fitz thinks about 9-11?

[coeur_de_lion]

203. if this case goes the way it should we will be hearing and reading

an awful lot about Fitzgerald. I'm sure one day we'll learn what he thinks of the * administration on a lot of different issues. The more I read about him the more I like him. He is also Irish. Did I mention that? I mean, he is pretty nearly perfect. If you are reading this, Mr. Fitzgerald, don't let us down. We're counting on you.

[coeur_de_lion]

204. Now, this is pretty damned interesting.

I wish I could say that it was all good but I dunno . . . . Fitzgerald applauds the Patriot Act in this statement to the Judiciary Committee.

H, you know everything, I assume you knew about this?

The Honorable Patrick Fitzgerald
United States Attorney , Northern District of Illinois

STATEMENT OF PATRICK J. FITZGERALD UNITED STATES ATTORNEY NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
OCTOBER 21, 2003
<<snip>>
Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, thank you for asking us here today. I very much look forward to this opportunity to discuss with you the efforts of the United States Attorney's Offices in the investigation and prosecution of terrorists, and particularly how those efforts have changed since the passage of the post-9/11 anti-terrorism tools.
You have heard my colleague Chris Wray describe "the wall" that was perceived to separate criminal and intelligence investigators that ended with passage of the Patriot Act. The end of "the wall" was long overdue and was the single greatest change that could be made to protect our country. As a prosecutor who has worked on terrorism matters for nine years now, I thank you on behalf of federal prosecutors, FBI agents and the public for that long overdue change to make America safe.
It is nearly impossible to comprehend the bizarre and dangerous implications that "the wall" caused without reviewing a few examples. While most of the investigations conducted when the wall was in place remain secret, a few matters have become public. I was on a prosecution team in New York that began a criminal investigation of Usama Bin Laden in early 1996. The team -- prosecutors and FBI agents assigned to the criminal case -- had access to a number of sources. We could talk to citizens. We could talk to local police officers. We could talk to other U.S. Government agencies. We could talk to foreign police officers. Even foreign intelligence personnel. And foreign citizens. And we did all those things as often as we could. We could even talk to al Qaeda members -- and we did. We actually called several members and associates of al Qaeda to testify before a grand jury in New York. And we even debriefed al Qaeda members overseas who agreed to become cooperating witnesses.
But there was one group of people we were not permitted to talk to. Who? The FBI agents across the street from us in lower Manhattan assigned to a parallel intelligence investigation of Usama Bin Laden and al Qaeda. We could not learn what information they had gathered. That was "the wall." A rule that a federal court has since agreed was fundamentally flawed -- and dangerous.
Let me review some examples of how the wall played out. On August 1998, al Qaeda struck at the American embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, nearly simultaneously killing 224 people. The team of FBI agents and prosecutors, which had obtained a sealed indictment of Bin Laden two months earlier, deployed to East Africa and almost immediately learned of al Qaeda's involvement and arrested two bombers in Nairobi. One month later, in September 1998, a man named Ali Mohamed was questioned before a federal grand jury in Manhattan. Ali Mohamed, a California resident, had become a United States citizen in 1989 after serving in the United States Army from 1986. Ali Mohamed lied in that grand jury proceeding and left the courthouse to go to his hotel, followed by FBI agents, but not under arrest. He had imminent plans to fly to Egypt. It was believed at the time that Mohamed lied and that he was involved with the al Qaeda network but Mohamed had not by then been tied to the bombings. The decision had to be made at that moment whether to charge Mohamed with false statements. If not, Mohamed would leave the country. That difficult decision had to be made without knowing or reviewing the intelligence information on the other side of the "wall." It was ultimately decided to arrest Mohamed that night in his hotel room. As described below, the team got lucky but we never should have had to rely on luck. The prosecution team later obtained access to the intelligence information, including documents obtained from an earlier search of Mohamed's home by the intelligence team on the other side of "the wall." Those documents included direct written communications with al Qaeda members and a library of al Qaeda training materials that would have made the decision far less difficult. (We could only obtain that access after the arrest with the specific permission of the Attorney General of the United States, based upon the fact that we had obligations to provide the defendant with discovery materials and because the intelligence investigation of Mohamed had effectively ended.) The criminal case gathered additional evidence through further investigation. Mohamed later pleaded guilty in federal court admitting that he was a top trainer to the leadership of al Qaeda and Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and that he had participated in the surveillance of a number of overseas American targets, including the American embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, and had later shown the sketches of that embassy to Bin Laden himself. Mohamed admitted he had trained some of the persons in New York who had been responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Mohamed stated that had he not been arrested on that day in September 1998, he had intended to travel to Afghanistan to rejoin Usama Bin Laden. Thus, while the right decision to arrest was made partly in the dark, the "wall" could easily have caused a different decision that September evening that would have allowed a key player in the al Qaeda network to escape justice for the embassy bombing in Kenya and rejoin Usama Bin Laden in a cave in Afghanistan, instead of going to federal prison.
<<snip>>

[coeur_de_lion]

206. The Prosecutor Never Rests (nice article about Fitzgerald)

The Prosecutor Never Rests
Whether Probing a Leak or Trying Terrorists, Patrick Fitzgerald Is Relentless

By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 2, 2005; Page C0
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55560-2005Feb1?language=printer

<<snip>>

If Osama bin Laden ever stands trial, there's a prosecutor in Chicago waiting to face him down. As a driven young lawyer in the 1990s, Patrick J. Fitzgerald built the first criminal indictment against the man who would become the world's most hunted terrorist. Both men have moved on, you might say, but Fitzgerald still imagines that fantasy date before a judge.

"If you're a prosecutor, you'd be insane if you didn't want to go do that," Fitzgerald says in the well-appointed conference room of the U.S. attorney's office here. "If there was a courtroom and they said someone has to stand up and try him, would I hesitate to volunteer? No. I'm not saying I'd be the best person to try him at that point, but I'd be lying if I told you I wouldn't be interested."

"If you're not zealous, you shouldn't have the job," says U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald, whose subpoenas of reporters have prompted complaints. (John Gress For The Washington Post)

A solidly built former rugby player who enjoyed getting muddy and bloody well into his twenties, Fitzgerald is nothing but confident in his own skin. Just as he does not fear bin Laden, he seems to fret little that he is now tangling simultaneously with the Bush White House and the New York Times, two of the nation's most powerful and privileged institutions.

Fitzgerald, 44, is the special prosecutor investigating the leak of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame's name to columnist Robert Novak. The gifted son of an Irish doorman makes no bones about challenging the establishment. His office is also prosecuting former Illinois governor George Ryan and loyal associates of Chicago Mayor Richard Daley on influence-peddling and corruption charges.

<<snip>>

[autorank]

208. A major faction of "Management" has been sending * messages.

This article was one of the first clear and unambiguous messages that some factions of the current power structure were going to get *. He and Rove didn't listen, nor did the oil boys who are stealing everything that isn't nailed down. So what! It's time, let the factional war begin. After "Management" factions slug it out, the people can move in and re-take the government; correction, take it over for the first time.

VIVA DEMOCRACY

[coeur_de_lion]

213. I sure hope you are right.

We have all been waiting for the other shoe to drop. * has made so many bad moves you would think even the die-hard Republicans are fed up to the teeth with him and his neo-con cabal.

Here's to the beginning of the end (I hope).
:toast:

[Me.]

212. Aah, Thank You

This should give some relief to those who are worried because he is a *ush appointee, for the moment.

[coeur_de_lion]

214. I sure would like to hear H2O's opinion about Fitzgerald

He seems to be nonpartisan, he seems to be stubbornly pursuing the people responsible for this crime. But I am a little shaky about whether he will actually finish the job and give us what we all want, what this country needs -- a frog march.

[Me.]

217. Yeah, Where Is That Little Baboon? n/t

[H2O Man]

219. "Galileo"

Andrea: "Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero."
Galileo: "No, Andrea, 'Unhappy is the land that needs a hero.'"
-- Bertolt Brecht

Does that answer your question? Fitzgerald is who we want for the prosecutor in this case, because he has qualities that will: <1> make him capable of finding the truth; <2> guarantee that criminal charges will be secured where indicated; and <3> satisfy most rational people. (There will be a few on the left & right who will cry foul, or project inner demons of "conspiracy.")

Does that mean we want Fitzgerald for Senator? For our hero? For Superman? For a neighbor? Probably not. But it might allow us to view a wider range of Americans as sharing values similar to our own, at least enough so that we can live together in the same country without being filled with suspicion and hatred for one another.

Who is Fitgerald/ Is he a "Fitzsimon"? Or perhaps "Ulysses"?

[H2O Man]

220. "Ulysses"

"And there rises a shining palace ... and hither come all herds and fatlings and first fruits of the land for O'Connell Fitzsimon takes toll of them, a chieftain descended from chieftains..."
-- James Joyce

I think that the Bulldog is part of the group of "Irish cops" that every Irish-American runs into at family gatherings. There was an author from the Clanna McDowell who wrote about the type. But of course things change: the McDowells are often called "Doyle" these days.

"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
--Arthur Conan Doyle; "Silver Blaze"

This little verse could be applied to Fitzgerald taking notice of that old dog Judith.

[H2O Man]

221. "Lapsus Calami"

"Two voices are there; one is of the deep,
And one is of an old half-witted sheep,
And Wordsworth both are thine."
--J.K. Stephen


This doesn't mean I agree, of course, with all of Fitzgerald's beliefs. He is pretty rigid in a "law & order" approach. The Patriot Act may seem A-okay to him. But that is who we want prosecuting.

[Me.]

224. Ok...If I Wasn't Impressed Before

19, 20 & 21 has done it.

[H2O Man]

225. Was it the bow ties?

The yellow one? Or the bright one? And did I answer Arby's question?

[Me.]

226. That's Not For Me To Say

But I admire your grace under fire. As for the bow ties, please say it ain't so Joe.

[H2O Man]

227. Well old Arby sure has disappeared.

She was not the one who refered to me as a baboon, however.

[Me.]

228. She's At Work Until Midnight

and the baboon mention was a dupe of an earlier usage.


edited

[H2O Man]

234. So now you call me

a "dupe," eh? I'll sue NASA for you saying my birth sign is "dupe."

[coeur_de_lion]

229. Arby is back. You are all probably sleeping

I am just getting home and I don't know the outcome of today's court dates with Judy & Matt. I posted an article on the other thread about Judy sticking to her guns and Matt agreeing to testify but I don't think it was solid yet.

Me., why are you calling poor H a baboon? You may have hurt his feelings. Underneath that tough guy Irish exterior there lies a sensitive heart, ya know. H, put your bow-tie back on. She may not like them much but it may stop her from mistaking you for a baboon.

Thank you, H2O, your essays were lovely and most reassuring. Okay, I suppose as usual I just wanted some reassurance from someone that Fitz is not going to sell us to the gypsies. No, I don't agree with his opinion on some things but if he'll be our Irish Elliot Ness I'll take him.

[Me.]

232. Hey There Arby

Judy's in jail, Fitz may eventually start criminal proceedings against her, Cooper folded after a dramatic phone call from his source and then spent the rest of the day whingeing about it and how he kept his word for 2 years. He has either already testified or will soon. Judy was smiling as the feds drove her away, presumably because she has visions of the fame of martyrdom.

I think this is all CYA with her and hope Fitz throws away the key when he's done with her and all the felons she's been assisting for the last 5 years.

As to the baboon thing, it is actually a compliment. H. was referred to as one on a different thread and he took it with a great deal of grace and humor.

And, if there is anyone who has a heart and doesn't need to wear a bowtie (general gender preferences aside) H. & I both know who it is.

[coeur_de_lion]

240. I *almost* feel sorry for Judy

but not quite. I don't like to see anybody go to jail, and I don't understand why she's doing it for that lump Karl Rove.

[H2O Man]

235. Maybe my fighting name

should be "the Sugarcane"?

[Me.]

237. Hmmmm

Well Sugar I'm liking it and, if you don't sue me for 300 million, it may be a fit.

[H2O Man]

238. "In this corner,

wearing three bow-ties, and sueing for $299 million....."

[coeur_de_lion]

242. naughty H2O. If I didn't know better I would swear you were

making fun of someone . . . .

But then I know you are far too sensitive to make fun of anybody. Or at least anybody who doesn't deserve it.

[coeur_de_lion]

239. hey I like that! Suits you perfectly. n/t

[coeur_de_lion]

210. check out Conyers' blog for his letter to * re: Rove

http://www.conyersblog.us/

<<snip>>
After reading the disclosures over the weekend, by Newsweek and Larry O'Donnell that Karl Rove had indeed been confirmed as one of the sources being used by Time for their Plame investigation, I quickly drafted a sign-on letter to the President asking him to either require that Rove clear his name or resign. Rawstory has the story and a copy of my letter.

One really needs to take a step back to appreciate what we now know. Fitzgerald may or may not be able to prove that Mr. Rove knowingly outed Valerie Plame, but the facts being reported by the media, and largely confirmed by Rove's attorney, indicate that he engaged in a media campaign to discredit a prominent American public servant, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, for disclosing what he knew about the Administration's mistatements concerning WMD. As Rove told Chris Matthews last year, he felt Wilson's wife was "fair game" for the press. These facts represent an outrageous admisssion, and only the President can eliminate the stain on his Administration by demanding that Rove come clean. Rove clearly has the right to defend himself and avoid difficult questions, as a private citizen. But as a government employee, and perhaps the most important individual in the Administration ("Bush's Brain"), the country is entitled to more than I didn't "knowingly" out a CIA operative from Rove's attorney.

This being a recess week, it will be somewhat difficult to obtain co-signatories. But the issue was important enough that I felt we couldn't wait in getting Members on record that this type of abusive behavior should not be tolerated.
<<snip>>

Sit down, my son. I love this guy.

[Me.]

211. If The News Is Going To Break Out Tomorrow/Today

won't we need another thread? And hey there Autorank, this could be the beginning of your predictions coming to fruition.

[coeur_de_lion]

216. DU Thread with link to Keith Olbermann video featuring John Dean

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4023811

[Me.]

218. Judy's In Jail

It's taken a long time to get to this point, let's hope it won't be another year before there are other frog marchings.

[coeur_de_lion]

230. Well blow me down. Never thought she would have the nerve to go.

Shall we send her a cake with a file in it, or maybe a little blanket with "home sweet home" embroidered on it? I heard that those jail cells can get pretty cold. She ought to call poor Martha Stewart and get some advice about how to make it more homey.

[hootinholler]

233. She' not there to protect any source...

There's more to it than meets they eye.

-Hoot

[H2O Man]

236. Darned right. n/t

[coeur_de_lion]

241. We all know why she's there, dammit! Wish she would get off it already

I don't like to see her in jail but I want her to fess up. I hope they are paying her well, whoever she's covering for. Probably Rove. Ugh.

[coeur_de_lion]

243. Comments from Joe Wilson on another DU thread (rawstory)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1608096&mesg_id=1608096

talking about "collateral damage"

[paineinthearse]

249. Meanwhile, the WH & coprorate media sit on their hands

see questions they have yet to ask - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4038152&mesg_id=4038152

[robertpaulsen]

250. The Miller/Fitzgerald Backstory by Josh Marshall

I got this from dchill at this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4040155

The Miller/Fitzgerald Backstory
By Josh Marshall

Don't forget: This isn't the first time Plame prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has tangled with Judy Miller while investigating a leak out of the Bush White House.

A little more than a year ago, I reported on TPM how Fitzgerald had quite aggressively investigated another Bush White House leak in late 2001 and early 2002. Fitzgerald had been investigating three Islamic charities accused of supporting terrorism -- the Holy Land Foundation, the Global Relief Foundation, and the Benevolence International Foundation. But just before his investigators could swoop in with warrants, two of the charities in question got wind of what was coming and, apparently, were able to destroy a good deal of evidence.

What tipped them off were calls from two reporters at the New York Times who'd been leaked information about the investigation by folks at the White House.

One of those two reporters was Judy Miller.

more...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/7/1148/62336

[robertpaulsen]

251. I agree with Marshall's assessment.

Here's the last 4 paragraphs:

Certainly, one plausible way of reading the facts, though not the one I'm inclined toward, is that Fitzgerald's got it in for Miller. She blew an earlier case he was working on. And now he's going to stick it to her on this one.

Or perhaps there's another explanation. Maybe there's something Fitzgerald knows about Miller's working relationships with particular figures at NSC or on the White House staff that made him fix on her, despite the fact that she never even wrote on the story.

Of course, maybe it's just a weird coincidence, though it'd be quite a coincidence.

In any case, with all the heat bearing down right now on this story, I'm more than a little surprised this connection hasn't gotten more attention.


I think Fitzgerald knows exactly what Miller's real "working relationships" are. I hope he can sweat the truth out of her. Or put her away for a long, long time.

[robertpaulsen]

252. More Trouble for Rove in CIA Leak Case?

More Trouble for Rove in CIA Leak Case?

What happened on Wednesday in Courtroom 8 at the federal district courthouse in Washington, DC, gave rise to more questions than answers about the shrouded-in-secrecy Plame/CIA leak investigation. But those questions may not be good for Karl Rove.

The most dramatic moment of the hour-plus hearing was when federal District Court Judge Thomas Hogan ordered New York Times reporter Judith Miller to jail for failing to reveal a source to special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who has been trying to find out which Bush administration officials outed undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a critic of the Bush White House. Conservative columnist Bob Novak first published the leak in a July 14, 2003 article that cited "two senior administration officials." Three days later, Time magazine posted a piece cowritten by Cooper that noted that "government officials" had told Time about Valerie Wilson's employment at the CIA. Miller wrote no article on this matter but apparently she talked to at least one source about it. Her decision to honor her pledge of confidentiality to her source and resist a court order might have afforded her source--whoever that might be--a measure of protection. But minutes earlier, Cooper--who had also been held in civil contempt for not cooperating with Fitzgerald--made a dramatic statement that could lead to trouble for a source he had previously protected, and that source might be Rove.

Cooper told the court that he had left home that morning--after saying good-bye to his six-year-old son and telling the boy that he might not see him for a while--resolved not to comply with Fitzgerald's request that he testify before the grand jury. (Time had already surrendered Cooper's notes and emails to Fitzgerald--over Cooper's objections--but Fitzgerald still sought Cooper's testimony.) But on the way to the courthouse, Cooper said to the judge, his source had contacted him and provided what Cooper called a "personal and unambiguous waiver to speak before the grand jury." So Cooper declared that he was now prepared to answer Fitzgerald's questions. He would not be sent off to the hoosegow.

What does this mean for Cooper's source--a person apparently of intense interest to Fitzgerald?

more...

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=4924

I won't be back until Sunday. Let's keep this thread alive, or start a new one!

[gee double you bee]

253. great job everyone!

:kick:

[Me.]

254. New Plame Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4045464

[coeur_de_lion]

255. Please continue the Plame discussion on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4045464

[H2O Man]

256. Okay. n/t