Dean is #2 to attack (?) Clark--he's "shocked".

[tjdee]

I'm watching the Today show interview.

Lauer's asking Clark about the "flip flop", and he quotes Dean as saying:
"I was shocked by General Clark's initial comments on the resolution, I was even more shocked that he switched the next day...he still has to clarify his position."

Uh, okay.

Doesn't sound like he's that enamored with Clark any more, does it.

[Chico Man]

1. I wouldn't exactly call that an attack

I was also shocked.

[tjdee]

2. Hmm...maybe that's not the appropriate word.

I went back and put a question mark after the word attack...

[Closer]

3. I was shocked as well

and I'm so glad to see Dean distancing himself.

Clark is trouble and he's a fraud.

[Pepperbelly]

4. a sniper, eh? nt

[Capn Sunshine]

8. DUCK, Pepperbelly!!

They're up there in the treeline...see? Just beyond that Bush....

[Capn Sunshine]

9. .

.

[Capn Sunshine]

10. >*ping<*

[diplomats]

5. Um, no

Bush is the fraud.

[coralrf]

11. How is he a fraud?

He was never in the Army? He was never in Vietnam, never a scholar? Or is it that he has the best shot at beating Bush and Dean has no shot...therefore he is a fraud. Hint hint..: Dems pick Dean!!!

How stupid do you take us for?

[Seneca]

17. Welcome to DU, closer!

:hi:

[Closer]

35. Heya, Seneca

:hi:

[carpetbagger]

6. Howie, he's got the same damn position you have!

Turn the guns to The Boy Who Cried Wolf (R-TX). He's the one who got the car stuck in the mud.

[EagleEye]

18. Dean has the position of yes war, no war, yes war, no war?

[returnable]

83. Dean said

"Yes" to UN-sanctioned military action, "No" to unilateral action.

And that was, and has been, Clark's position.

[coralrf]

7. To be honest...

Dean sounds exactly like Tom Delay in that quote. The fact that Dean calls it a switch gives the GOP great credibility when they do it. Puke pundits in papers across the USA tomorrow: "even the Democrats say he is a flip flopper" and you can bet your life on that quote being manipulated by Limbaugh as well.

Dean is becoming a detriment to the progressive effort. Fueling your opposition is a dumb thing to do. I used to think Dean the clean candidate, principled and focused. Not so. He is just another cheap shot taker. I will support him no more.

Support the Troops: Elect one!!! Wes Clark for Pez.

edit spelling

[tjdee]

14. Ding ding ding! He saw a shot and he took it.

Way to give the right wing credence, Howard!

[stickdog]

19. Well, since Clark is the DLC's new flavor, do you think he can keep

Lieberman from constantly shooting the whole fucking Party in the foot with his attacks on Dean and the left in general?

[EagleEye]

65. Thats total BS

do you actually think dean would be anything but shocked when Clark said he would support the resoluiton? That's just being honest. I was shocked, you were shocked. we were all shocked.

[WillyBrandt]

12. Dean-of-consciousness

This is a load of crap and Dean knows it. He knows perfectly well what Clark meant, that Clark had months and months of writings expressing skepticism over the Iraq adventure.

It's crap. Just like Dean's crap about him being the only white politician who talks to white audiences about race. False.

Dean was kissing Clark's ass a few days ago, and all the Deanians were agog at the chance that Clark would the the VP. Now Clark's running for the top spot and the manic Dean-of-consciousness comes out: OH NO HE IS A PNAC EVIL CLONE AND ALSO WACO MICHAEL JACKSON SAYS HAVE YOU HEARD.

Whenever I hear Dean's he's great. But once he starts misrepresenting other candidates--calling them Bush lite, etc.--it's horrible. You're in the top tier. There's no more climbing to do. Attack Bush, not the others.

[EagleEye]

22. Deep breath big guy

Dean thought he knew Clark's position. Then Clark stunned everyone with the statement he probably would have supported the war. What does that mena other than ...well...he probablt would have suported the war? I was shocked, you were shocked and, y golly, Dean was too.

[WillyBrandt]

26. Oh please

Clark wrote about his positions and spoke about them for months. After misspeaking while talking about a hypothetical (a stupid rookie mistake, Wes!), he immediately corrected himself and stayed with his original position.

Dean knows that's the story. Whenever anyone says "They're Shocked"--they ain't. Dean has been a politician for a decade; he knows how to play the game.

[EagleEye]

Let's see he mispoke then called for help from his handler

Dean should be shocked. You should be shocked. You mispeak about the exact number of troops in Iraq or the total national debt, not whether you support he war resoluiton. It was pathetic. I like Clark, but that shocked everyone.

[tjdee]

32. Well I must be friggin Einstein then, because I got it.

I still get it.

He did NOT support the war. He's said that over and over and over again. People are latching on to that for dear life as if it'll save Dean, or anybody else, by sinking Clark.

It shouldn't.

[EagleEye]

36. And you are ignoring the gravity of the vasilation

What part of "I probably would have supported the nomination" do you not understand?

[tjdee]

39. "The nomination"?

You may want to fix that, LOL.

He would have supported the resolution insofar as it meant going to the UN. NOT to invade. That's why he tripped himself up during the interview.

Or should we be thinking that he opposed the war for months, and then miraculously changed his position one day--and then changed it back to his original position the next day?

If people want to give Clark guff about his political naivete, that's one thing, but it is patently ridiculous to pretend that he just loves the idea of going to war with Iraq when he absolutely does not and never did.

[EagleEye]

47. He supported the resoluiton back int he fall of 2002.

[tjdee]

50. Insofar as it meant going to the UN. Not invading Iraq.

And, the war is NOT the war resolution. They're not interchangeable.

Can you find me the quote where he says we should invade Iraq?

[EagleEye]

66. The resolution didn't say come back after the UN

[tjdee]

69. Exactly.

Clark thinks it should have.

That is why there's this whole "does he doesn't he" thing.

On one hand, Clark would have voted for the resolution because it said go to the UN.

On the other, Clark would not have voted for it because it did not require Bush to return to Congress, and because he is AGAINST invading Iraq unilaterally.

Screwed up position? Maybe. Again, that goes to his inexperience, not his feelings on bombing Iraq. He thinks that Bush has made a big mistake and made the world more dangerous as a result.

[EagleEye]

38. And Dean doesn't need saving..

he needs a good VP and Clark is screwing himself for that with this questionable performance.

[WillyBrandt]

40. Clark needs a good VP

And he'll have plenty of choices, given how the polls are looking.

[Cha]

75. I'm not worried about Dean...he can handle...Dean just says

what's on his mind...if for some reason it came out that he was indeed shocked then I believe he was friggin' Shocked. If that is the case then so be it.

I'd prefer to hear a tape of Dean actually saying it...but until then I will take matt's word for it.

[returnable]

85. A big distinction

"...he probably would have supported the war."

He said he might've supported the RESOLUTION. That's not support for the war.

A LOT of folks thought the resolution was gonna be used as leverage for diplomatic means.

They didn't realize Bush was gonna use it as a blank check to launch a unilateral invasion.

They were wrong, of course. That's why everyone is pissed.

But Clark was asked if he would've supported the resolution, not the war.

[coralrf]

13. " I was shocked.."

Sounds like a guy in court trying to get bucks the easy way. Dean was not shocked he was overjoyed as he knew he could spew this crap "shocked" garbage.

[Bread and Circus]

28. Now that is astute....

reading between the lines!!!


:toast:

[stickdog]

15. Well, I was shocked as well.

I suppose that Dean shouldn't have been but wtf was with Clark flip flopping like that on HIS BIGGEST ISSUE.

[w4rma]

16. What's Clark's position? (n/t)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. missionary

nt

[WillyBrandt]

24. Clark's position...

was that Iraq was was a strategic mistake, a blunder, a wrong war at the wrong time. He HAS been consistent in saying this over and over and over. His position was always been that it is best to (1) focus on al Qaeda; and (2) that international, multilateral pressure should be used to back up the inspectors instead of jumping into war. He has always said it is good that Saddam is gone (it is), but has consistenty said that the Iraq war was not in America's interest.

Unfortunately, Clark hasn't yet mastered the art of the soundbye, and many of the members of DU haven't yet mastered the art of reading.

Clark was weighing the pros and cons of a vote outloud in a spoken interview, in the context of providing leverage to pressure Iraq, and that instantly negates anything he said. If Clark's words could be twisted, then it's his fault for making them so twisty--you know?

Unfortunately there is an entente cordiale between the less gifted DUers and Rush Limbaugh trying to imply that Clark flip-flopped, among other various sundry things. Strange bedfellows.

[tjdee]

37. They just want to milk it, that's all.

I am starting to think that some people here don't care whether something is right or not as long as they can use it to harpoon a threat to their candidate.

I don't think they're less gifted, I think they have a "gotcha" and they're using it.

If they can milk that for a while longer, they may as well.

[tjdee]

29. "I think he's really hurt us".

That's Clark's view on Bush and IRaq. From his interview on the Today Show--

"THe US worked for 50 years to prevent conflict, and we tried to promote the rule of law in international affairs."

"Bush actually undercut the rule of law and made the world a MORE DANGEROUS PLACE."

"I've never seen an imminent threat from Iraq. I would have voted for leverage to take the problem up to the United Nations, to give the president a strong hand, to help the United Nations deal with Saddam Hussein.When it comes right down to it, I would never have voted for war because this WAS NOT A CASE THAT REQUIRED WAR. In my short career in politics, I've learned you should stay away from hypotheticals, I discussed hypotheticals. I ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS A MISTAKE for the US Congress to give the president the authority to go to the UN AND NOT COME BACK to the American people. That's the resolution that should have been passed."

Sounds to me like he thinks Bush should have been required to return to Congress for 'the war vote'. And I agree. There should have been the "Let's Deal with IRaq, and work with the UN" vote, and then there should have been the "Do we invade" vote. There wasn't.

He would have voted to yes, deal with Iraq by going to the UN--NOT to invade Iraq. Hello? Why is this so difficult for people to get?

He was/is against the war, it's so obvious, and it's getting silly how people are pretending they don't get it, or are shocked, or that he's waffling, or whatever.

[EagleEye]

43. Duh, because that's not what he said!

[tjdee]

46. Yes it is.

You're right, I should go back and put quotes.

[EagleEye]

49. No it isn't

...I feel like I'm in grade school.

[tjdee]

52. So do I, LOL.

[poskonig]

56. Here's the problem.

Clark has a reputation for being militarily aggressive from the Kosovo campaign. Hence the importance of being clear and succinct. CBS reports that

"I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it," the newspaper quoted Clark as saying." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/16/politics/main573562.shtml

I've seen Clark make mistakes like this before. On crossfire once, he was asked about issue positions. The question on choice stood out because he said we was "pro-life, I mean pro-choice, I support reproductive rights." It leaves an ambiguity about whether he believes what he says, or if he is merely saying what he needs to get Democrats on his side.

[tjdee]

62. I disagree.

Surprise, LOL!

But he's said it both ways because again, he supported going to the UN and showing American solidarity. But he did not support invasion. We've had this argument many times at DU, whether the "pro-war" Dems voted for war or whether they voted to go to the UN.

This whole thing speaks more to Clark's inexperience and difficulty drawing the soundbyte/easy answer than it does that he is inconsistent on what he thinks.

He's pro-choice (he also told the American Prospect he was pro-choice). Again, I'm not going to defend his gaffe making/things coming out wrong. I'm sure he'll suffer for it.

But that he's just making up what he thinks, or that he doesn't know what he thinks? I don't get that vibe at all.

[Octafish]

20. Clark told Dean who'd be Second Banana

Wesley Clark won't forget who wanted him to settle for second-billing. So, he decided to run himself. Can't say that I blame him.

[EagleEye]

23. Can I have some of what you are smoking?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. He's Quoting A News Article

Perhaps he can link it....

My memory is hazy....

[EagleEye]

31. There is an article saying Clark is upset about being asked to be VP?

[Cha]

27. And so what did Clark have to say?

[tjdee]

42. Please see post #29, my reply to w4rma, "I think he hurt us".

[Cha]

53. Good ...I'm glad he said that! Much better than when he

was coming out of the starting gate.

[RevelerRevenant]

30. My Ideal Candidate, General Wesley Clark!

I was leaning toward Dean but I hoped that General Clark would
enter and to my joy he did.
General Clark is the ideal candidate to defeat Dubya. He has
support from those in the military, he is not opposed to
social programs and he's a fine speaker. He needs to refine
his dialogue to a sharp point, as President Clinton did.
The ONE THING that any of the candidates should NOT DO, is
evade President Clinton. President Clinton has the power,
prestige and the sharp wit that would be a blessing to
Clark, should he endorse Clark. He can raise money!
We, as Democrats should all get behind Clark and assure
the nomination of Clark in 2004 and get out the vote.

[EagleEye]

34. We as democrats should pick a dem who has been one for more than a week

[poskonig]

33. Should Dean be *pleased* by Clark's pro-resolution comments?

I was confused by Clark myself. I'm not sure what the problem is.

[WillyBrandt]

41. Because it was fluff

"Shocked"--c'mon. That's a politician word. He heard the word, ran the political calculus, and gave a soft jab.

Fair enough, it's politics. But that's all it is.

[poskonig]

44. So you weren't shocked?

What were you then? Happy? :+

[WillyBrandt]

51. No way

I was upset that Clark's displaying a rookie mistake with the spotlights on him. You're a candidate talking to a political reporter. Stay on message like Dean. Don't ramble or indulge in speculative thoughts. Say what you mean and be clear.

[knight_of_the_star]

55. What Dean did was uncalled for

He picked a sentence or two that made Clark look bad and took a low jab below the belt at Clark. Clark has been consistent in stating that this war was a mistake and he would have only supported it if he had UN support. For Dean to say he is "shocked" by Clark's position shows that Dean is no different from any other politician in this race: only concerned for his own agenda and his own power. In fact, we should be questioning if DEAN is the one who will run as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nomination.

[poskonig]

57. Dean will absolutely support the nominee.

There is no question on this point.

Clark may merely be telling you what you want to hear, given his previous praise for the Iraq war, his "friends" Wolfowitz and Perle, and the waffle we're discussing.

This is a legitimate issue.

[WillyBrandt]

59. Friends of his

... whose ideas he is adamantly opposed to and has castigated repeatedly. Come on, now.

[EagleEye]

61. You mean by pointing out that they are Repug-lite? They are

[WillyBrandt]

64. Yes...

And they are. And I have off handedly called people friends who I think have noxious political views. I've even said that about folks I'm not friends with.

More to the point: what are Clark's POSITIONS on International Relations? They are consistent: pro-Europe, pro-International Institutions, pro-Multilateralism, pro-force as a last result.

Have you bothered to read his position on foreign affairs? They are diametrically opposed to the PNAC crooks.

But hell. Words are there for the twisting...

[knight_of_the_star]

78. Thanks Willy

I've been a tad busy, you said what I was going to. Thanks.

[knight_of_the_star]

77. So you have a problem with civility?

He is being, quite unusually, a man who is being CIVIL to his opponents. Take a look at what he has been saying about Wolf and Perle, which is something to the effect of "I like those guys, but I think what they are doing is boneheaded." Its a neat trick to do in debating, it makes your opponent have to be civil and debate issues, not attack you head-on. Besides, what about Dean's little thing about how his supporters are "non-transferable?" Could THAT not be construed as saying he will run alone if he desired to, hmmm?

[EagleEye]

60. dean was asked and he he answered.

what's wrong with that? We were all shocked by Clark's response(s).

[depakid]

71. Clark took a poke at Dean too-

Stating basically that Dean may have been right but "he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."

I think you're getting really carried away with all this. So Dean was shocked- I can think of a few other who were as well, including the interiewer. Big friggin deal.

[Mz Pip]

45. How dramatic!

Dean spins the same tired right wing screed of a Clark quote taken out of context. Yawn. Lieberman did it. Now Dean, heaven forbid his lame attempt at regurgitating that crap, gets lost in the facts as well. Why bother to do you homeowrk when you can have Rush do it for you.

My opinion of Dean just dropped several points. What's a matter Howie, afraid to get left out of the "Let's be "SHOCKED" by taking a quote out of context" spin?

MzPip
:dem:

[Jim Sagle]

48. Who gives a fuck? Clark's gonna tube anyway.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. This Post Ain't Nuthin' But Shit (eom)

DTH

[Cha]

58. Okay... so did Matt Lauer have a video of Dean saying this or

is this just a quote from matt saying what Dean said?...because I am very suspicious of the media.

[tjdee]

63. Matt was reading a quote.

I've been trying to find it independently of Matt, haven't yet.

[Cha]

67. Thanks! I just thought of that after reading all the posts on this...

Maybe Dean did say it...but after all the false stuff I've seen ..I'm trying not to take anything as facts from the media unless I know for sure.

[tjdee]

68. Here's the link to the TODAY Show Interview...

About...3 minutes in I think Lauer brings up the Dean quote, but it is very good viewing if you're still not sure how Clark feels about the war.
http://www.msnbc.com/m/v/video_news.asp?0ql=cap

Click on "Wesley Clark on Bush's Iraq handling".
Kahuna posted this awhile ago, too lazy to find link. Thanks Kahuna!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Having Dean Personally Bash Clark Is The Best Thing To Happent To Him

It disabused him of the notion that Howard Dean was a different kind of candidate and not another pol...

Mean for Dean 04....


on edit- this was after Dean said Wes Clark was a "good guy" who "knows alot about defense"....

[Cha]

73. Oh yeah! That's a real "bash"!

[dkf]

72. I think Dean was more shocked at what a muff Clark made of this.

You'd think this was the one question he would have been prepared for. And the "Mary, help!" thing was just too weird.

[Kahuna]

74. Dean is so full of it...

I can't stand the guy.

[WillyBrandt]

76. but he's the only white candidate to talk about race to white audiences

really! none of the others have! it has to be true--Dean said it

[w4rma]

79. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

…
"I was shocked" by General Clark's initial comment on the resolution, Dr. Dean, former governor of Vermont, said in an interview as he flew from a rally in Boston to a series of fund-raisers in New York. "I was even more shocked that he switched the next day."

"He still has to clarify his position," the candidate added.
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/24/politics/campaigns/24DEAN.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[CMT]

80. actually number three

First Lieberman raised questions, then Kerry, and now Dean. If the General is going to run he has to expect he is going to get some attacks by the other candidates--he isn't going to get a nomination on the silver platter. Besides Dean's "attack" as you call it is very mild compared to Lieberman and Kerry, who not only said that the General had to get together with his "blue ribbon" group of advisors to figure out a position on the resolution but also took The General to task for being a Republican up until a few years ago who voted for Nixon and Reagan while he (Kerry) was fighting him.


But ofcourse in your eyes Dean's very mild comments warrant a thread.

[JNelson6563]

81. Nice tabloid title

pickin' up reich-wing Enquirer-like tactics are we? Interesting.

Julie

[tjdee]

82. Oh please.

I put a question mark next to "attacks" because I admitted it might not have been the right word.

We were taking bets to see who the first would be to go after Clark, it was Lieberman, and I thought it was interesting that no one posted Dean's comments, so I did.

Reich wing my behind.

[im4edwards]

84. he is an opponent, what do you expect ?

.