Arnold won this debate

[leanings]

and certainly not because he was the best candidate. Camejo, Bustamante and McClintock were the only ones up there with real, coherent ideas. But Arnold still took it, simply because he delivered the largest number of sound bites that will appeal to the mass audience.

It's really sad that our political system has fallen to this low. Bush got his war not because he made the most intelligent argument, but because the arguments he made were less complex than the arguments against the war. It's an overriding theme; depth kills. The average voter can't or won't take the time to examine issues for what they really are instead of how they're packaged.

Pathetic.

[Robin Hood]

1. He didn't win crap.

The asshole got booed when he showed his true nature against women.

Furthermore: All the pundits spinning this bulldukey are a bunch of elite white people. California has a huge population of latino voters and none of these spinners represents them. Bustamante does represent them. And the Latino community would love nothing more than to get a latino in a state dominated by latinos.

[Cha]

5. Yeah! I dig your version!

[Robin Hood]

9. Thanks Bob,

Coming from you that means a lot. :smoke:

[janekat]

52. He lost - came in dead last. OBNOXIOUS!!!!!

[regnaD kciN]

60. Not according to the poll at MSNBC.com...

Who delivered the best performance in Wednesday's debate?
* 32012 responses

Bustamante 17%
Camejo 6%
Huffington 9%
McClintock 15%
Schwarzenegger 53%

:-(

[Robin Hood]

62. Yeah, I'm sure that was a scientific poll,

with no freeping being done.

[Oracle]

7. That was my take on DU, what was being written on about eight...

threads during the debate and I was reading EVERY one of those post, while listening to Mike Malloy.

That Arnold was an interrupting, women bashing, loudmouth...who really didn't know shit when it came to policy. All staged by his handlers...and the moderator, a California republican was letting Arnold get away with talking over people who were making very valid points.

That's what I came away with from DU.

[Kanola]

19. Ahnuld was an interrupting VAGUE loud mouth

He offered no substance, and when Arianna called on him for his women bashing ways he offered her a role in the next Terminator. BAD!!! A true nominee would have questioned her reasoning and that he could not do. Arianna caught him off guard from his spoon fed Pete Wilson coaching and it showed the real woman basher that he is. He could of took the high road but took the low road. Other than that, he was vague as hell about policies and would vote for a piece of lint before Ahnuld. He interrupted Bustamante and that stupid moderator did not stop him. Stan Stratham had his nose too far up Arnold's butt.

[Bertrand]

You make a good point

arnold couldnt stop to finish his point. It was really awkward and im sure it didnt help him.

[Maddy McCall]

12. You are so right.

If I were a woman in Cali, I would be in the streets campaigning against that chauvinistic moron! He was rude and ugly to Arianna, and by being so publicly displayed his now well-known anti-women sentiments.

[Robin Hood]

13. Did he mean that he wanted to stuff her head in the toilet?

When he made that terminator 4 statement to her? That's what i got out of that. Only a coward would treat women like that.

PS, love your sig line.

[Bertrand]

18. He didnt get booed

the audience was gasping when arriana made the comment about "this is how you treat women". They were shocked because it was an open secret among the electorate.

As for the debate, i think arnolds success was mixed. He attempted to show that he wasnt a complete moron by giving out statistics (which will impress the casual political viewer who had zero expectations of him) while being completely vapid on anything really substantive. He also Delivered some really weird lines "I have a part for you in Terminator 4" I thought he was trying to run as someone other than "just an actor" but i guess he isnt. Thats pretty bad, i think. Overall, McClintock came across as a principled man, which is appealing to people despite the fact that his principles are wrong for the future of california. Cruz came off as intelligent, but unfortunatly arrogant as well. "im sure you dont know this..." doesnt fly with joe shmoe. Camajo did the green party well, and was an excellent spokesperson for liberalism. He probably came off the best (tied with mcclintock) Arriana, well, she increased her speech fee.

[Oracle]

20. Did he or didn't he get booed?

[Bertrand]

22. He didnt

eom

[Robin Hood]

25. he did indeed get booed.

he got booed when he told Arianna to drink more decaffeinated coffee. Hinting in his typical chauvinist manner that she was a hysterical woman. After that exchange, he made the statement of her being in the next terminator movie. Which implied that he wanted to beat up on her and stuff her head in a toilet.

Nice huh?

[Bertrand]

27. Actually, youre right there

but i thought you were referring to the exchange over Ariannas "women" quote. Sorry.

[Robin Hood]

28. It''s kewl,

She made that statement after his decaf stement, and then she pointed out why he does not get the women vote, and then he threatened to stuff her head in a toilet.

[ResistTheCoup]

38. I have to agree with your overall assessment as what I saw, too

We thought Camejo did the best job presenting his position and came across the least sarcastic/vindictive/snippy, etc. Definitely the best liberal position.

Arianna came out swinging and EVERYTHING she talked about either bashed Bush or put Arnold on the ropes. And it really got under Arnold's skin. That remark about the part in the Terminator movie came over loud and clear to me that he wanted to stuff her head in a toilet. What a pompous, arrogant a**hole.

Cruz came off exactly as you said, intelligent but a bit arrogant. He at least seemed extremely calm next to Arnold and Arianna.

And McClintock. Jeez. Could you get anybody more white bread than this guy?? He spoke out for the poor downtrodden white American families who have to move to Arizona because they can't afford to live in California. And he thinks he's already color-blind and everyone's playing on a level playing field. And all the typical Repug b.s.

But mostly, whenever he was talking, all you could notice were his beady eyes and no matter what he said it sounded like "blah,blah,blah,blah". Bor-ing!

The good news is that the right-wing, socially conservative, Casper Milquetoast crowd will probably be put off by Arnold and vote for Tom. So Arnold will only be left with the star-struck celebrity voters and macho dumbasses who liked his one-liners.

All in all. Good news for Davis.

[Robin Hood]

50. Oh god, thank you!!!

"blah,blah,blah,blah". Bor-ing! That pretty much wrapped up mclintock. I couldn't help but tune out whenever he talked.

[DoNotRefill]

54. Mclintock...

reminded me of a catfish that lived in a water cooling pond of a nuclear power plant. Is it just me, or are his eyes too close together? Maybe that's why the Freepers like him...

[Maple]

2. Can anyone sum up the debate

for those of us who didn't see it?

[Nevernose]

3. Excellent analysis

I haven't heard it put in quite those terms before. I'm reminded about of the old story about Adlai Stevenson having the intellectual vote.

[Dookus]

4. couldn't disagree more...

the biggest winner was Gray Davis, followed by Tom McClintock.

I will wager $20 that Arnie's poll numbers decline after tonight.

on edit: Also, Arianna won the sound-byte award.

[PartyPooper]

11. I hope you're right. To me, Arnold was vintage obnoxious.

But, CNN was covering his 'press conference' following the debate...MSNBC had Tweety fawning all over Arnold.

In general, the pundits (including Jerry Brown) thought Arnold did very well (or, even won!)

I thought Cruz did quite well...so did Arianna! Camejo was good, too.

Arnold was in attack mode. Loud and crude! Ugh!

Too bad, Davis wasn't there to defend himself.

[Cha]

31. What's up with jerry brown....why did he stick up for that ill informed

misogynist?

[Capn Sunshine]

6. I COMPLETLY TOTALLY DISAGREE

Respectfully, of course.

My sense of this debate was that all the Arnold supporters were waiting for him to take on the charges that he's no substance , all fluff.

Instead, he demonstrated he's as fluffy as Snuggles the Bear

He looked WAY out of his league up there.

[flamingyouth]

8. Oh, eat me

You're just playing into this scam. If I wanted to read this kind of crap, I'd be on CNN's site or MSGOP. Give me a fucking break.

[Terwilliger]

14. I cant disagree that much

Republicans are really stupid...they see a dumb-ass bobbing his head and calling himself Republican, they go for the carrot

AHH-nold just had to sound good saying what he'd rehearsed before...nobody cared that he couldn't actually come up with any substantive ideas

[cally]

10. Nope...he showed how shallow he is

He came across as a terminator who does not respect honest debate and hates women. I think he lost.


Davis lost because the media whores did not allow him in the debate. It's despicable.

[Dookus]

36. No...

Davis' absence had nothing to do with "media whores". It has to do with the California constitution. He's not a candidate.

[spooky3]

57. Jesse Ventura will have Grey Davis on his show Sat night

[realFedUp]

15. If winning meant

never having to say you're sorry....

We now know why Arnold wasn't allowed to do debates.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. arnold had NOTHING to offer in the way of programs for what he will do as

gov.....he suckeed....was rude and attacked and talked over others...interupted everyone except mc clintok...if CA votes for this neaonthal :shrug: god help them

[mitchtv]

17. Arianna won, then Cruz

and i suppport the Dems. She was great , however.

[leanings]

21. Hey, for everyone that disagrees with me

see how many clips you see with Arnold giving that line about Terminator 4 or driving his Hummer thru Arianna's tax loophole in the mass media over the next few days. I didn't say Arnold won the debate in the sense of presenting anything that meant shit; far from it. Infotainmentwise, that is, appealing to the great unwashed, he nailed it.

[candy331]

24. If that was a debate

then tell me what a "free for all is". I couldn't stomach but a few minutes of it and turned to Lifetime. Gray Davis looks like the winner from what I saw.

[ErasureAcer]

23. He had "general" statements. He had NO FUCKING DETAILS!

Everything he answered was somehow tied back to the budget deficit. He was reaching on many questions...and simply lacked any depth to the questions.

For the love of anything...this guy is a moron and a mean jackass at that.

[mitchtv]

30. hurunph,no details indeed

Jeff Greenfield says he wrapped himself in facts..sarcasm off.

[Clete]

35. Arnold came off to me as the muscled brained jackass

he is. If anyone thinks he had the best answers, that may be the best argument that our schools really are in trouble and he isn't the answer.

[Room101]

26. What are you talking about? Arianna had real ideas too!

I do agree with your broad political analysis of " The overriding theme; depth kills, as it pertains to the Bewildered herd.

And yes "Bush got his war not because he made the most intelligent argument, but because the arguments he made were less complex than the arguments against the war." Throw in some manufactured fear and crisis and you will have no trouble manufacturing consent.

[janekat]

49. Arianna is kicking ass!!! n/t

[RichM]

29. Here's my take on the debate (I watched all 90 minutes) -

First of all, I thought Arnold did miserably -- far, far worse than I'd even dared to hope. He looked like a mean, ignorant, bullying, bragging pig, completely out of his depth. McClintock is even more a rightwinger than Arnold, but at least he's a competent advocate for his side, & is armed with enough background to be able to debate.

Arianna & Camejo were both very good -- both articulating positions well to the left of Cruz. Cruz is charming, suave, likeable & extremely well-prepared, but is representing a thoroughly Establishment position. Camejo was just as statesmanlike as Cruz, & prepared at roughly the same level, but had the advantage of being free (& able) to articulate a far more idealistic program. Cruz, being the incumbent, had to keep it down to earth.

Arianna hit many wonderful notes & idealistic themes as well. She also took the risk of repeatedly getting into fights with Arnold. It seems she did this deliberately -- taunting him, provoking him, then refusing to back down an inch after angering him. It seemed she was willing to incur some degree of public ill will for her provocations; the payoff, from her POV was that she succeeded in bringing out the worst in him. When he said the thing about a role in Terminator 4 for her, it was a thinly-veiled way of saying he wanted to stuff her head in a toilet. I am sure hundreds of thousands of viewers were repulsed by that. Bravo, Arianna! // She was gutsy, and tough as nails. Plus, even when Arnold would take a nasty shot at her, she handled it with aplomb.

I dare to think that many viewers must have realized that the 2 Independents (Arianna & Camejo) were at least as good as the incumbent. This is a positive development. People should understand that there is more to political life than just Republicans & Democrats. I also dare to think (and I am no optimist) that Schwarzenegger made such an obvious jackass of himself, that Californians will not vote for him. I feel much more optimistic about this than I did a few hours ago.

[Cha]

33. Thanks for that rich analysis!

Loved it! Much better than having to endure debates! I don't get those channels anyway. :)

[Merlin]

45. Good analysis. I agree pretty much with all of it.

Seems to me anybody who was impressed with Ahnuld's performance (and that's exactly what it was) is way to shallow to take the trouble to go to the polls.

I do think Cruz came off pretty well. He sounded informed, concerned and competent. Camejo is terrific, but screwed up badly near the end with his blanket condemnation of "all managers" as crooks.

In California, we are witnessing an electorate come face to face with the natural consequences of the anti-tax mania. Perhaps it will get worse before it gets better. That might actually be a good thing. Maybe then people will grasp what their tax dollars do for them.

[zeemike]

46. Good take

The only two in that debate with balls
Were Arianna & Camejo Although I got to like Bustamante after hearing him out

[janekat]

51. I agree for the most part....

I didn't think that Camejo was really "statesmanlike" - more like a rabble-rouser - which I kind of enjoyed, though. It seemed like he alternated between being shrill at the beginning but then settled down a bit. He did give a few good short mini-speeches though.

One was especially moving to me and probably to other liberals (I'm sure a lot of Republicans were ready to throw their TV's through the window).

[spooky3]

58. Arianna did an excellent job

of pointing out how California's propositions have kept or would keep Californians from achieving their own goals. For example, she was specific about how the local governments have been starved for funds and consequently have no power to respond to local needs. She articulated well why the proposition that would outlaw collection of demographic data would prevent Californians from tracking progress of disadvantaged groups, which is unacceptable given that the current data clearly show these disadvantages.

She also succeeded spectacularly in breaking through the charming veneer of Arnold to reveal how he would truly behave as a politician. I have never seen his violent movies but have seen him on talk shows and charitable events and always found him likeable and smarter than given credit for. I wondered if maybe the rumor mill was going on overdrive to ruin him with unproven allegations. But by challenging him directly, she provoked reactions that showed him to be a sexist bully who doesn't "get it".

[janekat]

32. Replay of this on CNN right now...

[janekat]

34. What a Dick!!!! only 14 minutes in the debate and I'm ready to

strangle that musclehead. I'll tell you one thing I don't think a lot of women are too terribly impressed. Aggressive men who interrupt don't go over to big with a lot of women.

[Oracle]

39. Seems Arnolds handlers are going after the macho white & brown men's vote

and the passive women vote, who like the dominant strong men type (I don't know any personally and wouldn't care to) and the star struck bubbleheads vote and also the republican vote...(that's a lot of voters.)

I don't kmow, I quit watching politics on TV over 10 month's ago...

I've been getting great updates here on DU instead.

[janekat]

37. "Republicans only care about morals when it comes to sex"...

Arianna

[janekat]

40. Arnie brings up his Hummer - dumb shit!!! n/t

[TLM]

41. I don't think he did well at all...

The main thing i took away from this was that even when Arnold had the questions in advance he couldn't answer them.

And man he's even more of an asshole than I thought... and he showed it.


And wow Huffington nailed Arnold a few times on treatment of women and his pandering.

[janekat]

42. Arnold goes after the only woman on the panel - not too smart...

since they've been talking about how he is disrespectful of women.

[Kazak]

43. Won it?

I sat there the whole time in complete awe of just how slimey he really seemed...

[janekat]

47. I didn't know what a jerk that guy really was until now.... I'm stunned!

[janekat]

44. ARNOLD IS DOING TERRIBLE!!! What a jerk.....

My friend is watching this with me and she is appalled at his behavior. She's much more middle-of-the road than I am.

[Oracle]

48. Well at least three of the five candidates said vote NO on the recall!

[HazMat]

53. I agree. How low can we go ?

No longer is our political system about substance and ideas. It's all about show. There's a reason crap like FOX has the highest ratings, and it ain't just because conservatives are watching it.

Bill Clinton was a smart, qualified candidate, but he won mostly because he was a good campaigner. People voted for the personality more than they did the platform. Same with Bush. He's as dumb as a rock yet about half of the electorate voted for him because he "seemed like a nice fellow". An extremely qualified and intelligent statesman like Gore was destroyed by the media. He was called "stiff" and "boring" (they're doing the same thing to Kerry now).

Guess what ? Politics is supposed to be boring. I'm so sick of the idiots who want to be "inspired" and "moved" by political candidates. Exhibit A is the whole Dean movement. It's the whole groupie/fundie/teeniebopper mentality, i.e. "inspire me oh great one". Elections then become personality contests instead of what it should be: a serious process to choose qualified people for serious jobs.

Bustamante, Camejo and McClintock argue their point clearly and substantively. Yet it's the shitheads like Arnold and Arianna who make the headlines. I fear that the line between entertainment and politics has become dangerously blurred.

[VOX]

55. Yes, Arnie got in more sound bites, but he didn't come off that well...

It's obvious that he's terribly misinformed and not gubernatorial material.

The biggest worry is: Are Californians pissed off enough to foul their own nest and votes this guy in, just for spite?

[Piperay]

56. Yup, you are correct...

the media declared him the winner as I knew they would. As long as the groper did'n wet himself in public view he was gonna be declared the winner by the celebrity driven media. :argh: :mad: :-(

[T_i_B]

59. That's not how the UK press reported it

on the TV this morning there was a lot of it and they all focused on Arrianna taking Arnie to the cleaners and all declared Arnold the loser.

None of Cruz's soundbites got over here though.

[spooky3]

61. that is good to know--thanks!