Keep in mind: Clark does NOT have political experience

[Hawkeye-X]

Just to keep in mind in this. (This is *NOT* a Clark bashing thread. Just concerns of mine)

I know he had to dabble in politics to get his four stars, and that's just it. Of course, he has fairly extensive knowledge of economics (Econ prof at West Point), military and foreign affairs (NATO Commander at Kosovo), but where does his domestic agenda lies? What about health care. All I know is that he wants to cut some Pentagon funds to pay for health care - but will he REALLY do it, as a military-knowledgable person. Where does he stand on SS, job creation, environment, and the capablity to govern people? In my opinion, commanding armed forces is NOT the same as governing people in a state. The armed forces are to obey their superiors at all times or face disciplinary action.

I feel that Clark is better off being a VP, rather than being a President. If he agrees to become a VP to a Dem President, then more power to him, and he will have my full support in 2012 as President of the United States, barring any scandals, because after 8 years, he will have more than enough political experience and the know-how to deal with all agendas that the United States needs done for its people and not for its right-wing cronies.

Hawkeye-X

[GainesT1958]

1. Right about now...

Neither being embroiled in--nor immersed in--political experience is not neccessarily such a bad thing. :eyes:

B-)

[wyldwolf]

2. What is so funny about this particular charge..

...is that many people agree that we need more people in public service who are NOT politicians - until we get people with no political experience seeking office, then we hear it is a liability.

[w4rma]

4. Sure, but folks usually start small. A state senator/delegate.

Mayor, then U.S. Representative, Governor or Senator, *then* President of the whole shebang.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. Right. if only Howard had been NATO Supreme allied commander

before he ran for Governor.

[mojowork_n]

3. Doesn't brown-nosing and a**-kissing count for anything, these days?

As if the Pentagon doesn't have any of that, or Clark hasn't performed his voluntary and required duty, at different times.

No, I'm kidding. I don't know. I used to completely dismiss Clark, until I saw a David Hackworth piece that was complementary. Hackworth had been one of his biggest critics, and although he's kind of a conservative, I respect his opinion and honesty on military-related topics.

[Cappurr]

5. I don't know how many threads of yours I've seen

that have no intention to bash :eyes: but just honestly express concerns about Clark.

Lets face it Hawkeye. You don't support him. Thats fine. But be honest about it and stop making up reasons to cut him down.

As far as political experience, there is no-place more political than the Pentagon. And NATO is a diplomatic obstactle course.

Tell me, what political experience did Abraham Lincoln have? He was a small town lawyer. Not that I'm comparing the two, but you need to keep things in perspective. Truman was a habadasher.

We've got a guy in there now who spent six whole years as Governor (a governor with no power). I'm ready for a change. Aren't you?

[dfong63]

32. all of the dem candidates offer change

We've got a guy in there now who spent six whole years as Governor (a governor with no power). I'm ready for a change. Aren't you?

i'm ready for a change, but that fact does not commend Clark, because all of the dem candidates offer that.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Political experience is not at the top of my list for preferred candidates

My preferred candidate is the one who can beat Bush best. I don't want another close one like last time. No, Sir. I want whoever runs against Bush to be able to squash him like a bug during next years election. I don't even want Bush to win one state if that is possible. Not even Texas. That is who I want running against Bush next year. And again. I don't care who it is that can do that. Just as long as that person can do that.

Don

[brad.owens]

7. Clark can bring other skills to the table that no one can

What will Bush run on? His economic failure? His mega budgets? No, the war on terror (or "terra" as Dubya puts it) is the only thing he can really run on. Clark takes all that away from Dubya and no other candidate on our side can do that but him. I love Dr. Dean but he could not capture the middle if he is viewed as "soft of terra".

[VolcanoJen]

25. Welcome to DU, brad.owens!

Democratic Underground
Welcomes You!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. You Will Be Pleasantly Suprised

Wes Clark has a Masters Degree in Economics from Oxford, taught the subject at West Point, and was on the debate team as a cadet....

[meegbear]

9. Why are dean people never "bashing", just "concerned"?

If it was the other way around, you'd be "concerned" that the person is too "inside" politics and we need a fresh perspective from a novice.

And as a counter-argument, * has lot's of experience and look where we are. Nuf Sed.

[VelmaD]

10. Excellent question...

especially considering how they react when people express "concerns" about Dean. :-) Thanks for hitting the nail on the head meegbear.

[JohnKleeb]

18. bothers me too

:hi: is the grotto open tonite?

[VelmaD]

26. Dunno...

depends on whether short bus or TrogL is up to it and how long my City Council meeting runs. Austin City Council is supposed to vote on a resolution opposed to the PATRIOT Act tonight. Gotta go make sure they do the right thing. :-)

[JohnKleeb]

30. good luck on that

Have a good one. but yeah this stuff that you and the other person sorry I forgot your name mentioned bothers me too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. The "I'm Concerned"

style of argument originated with Richard Milhous Nixon...

Nixon would say "I'm not going to tar my opponent by saying Helen Gahagan Douglas is a communist but others will."

Get the charge out there without accepting responsibility for it....

[Nicholas_J]

11. Neither did George Washintgn

Taylor,Harrison, Grant or Eisenhower.

As a matter of fact, more Generals without political experience have been Presidents, than Ex Doctors who have become Governors who have become president.


You dont know a great deal about the military if you do not think that military experience does not require a great deal of economic strategy and dealing with funding and particularly with ADMINISTRATION. The Pentagon and Generals spend more time on administration than they spend on planning wars.

AS a matter of fact, I will bet that Clarks administrative experience is far in excess of Deans, given the small state Dean administered.

Clark is a leader, as well as an administrator, and Dean had a great Deal of trouble LEADING as governor.He was better suited to squabbling and vetoing legislation for personal reasons. Dean did more arguing and vetoing than any Vermont Governor in its history.
Thats not leadership, that's bullying.

If The General did not succeed in te proper administration of the War effort he was in charge of, people would have died.

It is of great interest that the were NO U.S. military casualties while Clark was in charge in Kosovo.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. No offense but Vermont

is about the same size as a Congressional district....

[Nicholas_J]

21. Population wise

It is smaller than the city I live in and the city I live in is not massively large, nor is it the largest city in my state.

Ahd my own Republican Dominated City offers free health care to those who do not have it. The service is actually better than that in Vermont.

Vermont is a tiny state, with limited problems, high taxes. Dean was left with a 65 million dollar deficit, but the means of getting rid of that deficit was left to him as well. The Snelling Income tax increases did it all. Not only that, but they funded increases to medicaid allowin more people to be covered. Dean was also left one of the lowers rates of uninsured in the Uninted States.

The year before Dean took office, the rate of unisured in Vermont was 9.5. percent. When he took office it rose to 12.7, when the Snelling Tax increases went into effect,, by 1994, the unisured rtate dropped back to 9.6 percent. This is the year Dean refused to keep the Snelling tax cuts in place, to the anger and warning of Vermont Democrats that social services would fail if he did so. After Dean ignored them, in 1995, zthe rate of the unisured grew to the highest level reported. Higher than the highest level of for the five years PRIOR to Deans administration. Deans fiscal decision resulted in nearly a fifty percent increase in the uninsured rate, from 9.6 percent to 13 percent. Thats what we got to look forward to?

[Jim Sagle]

31. What a crock.

[Toucano]

15. Concerns

Your subject line is incongruent with your concern, IMHO. It seems your not as concerned with his superficial lack of political skills, but with his stand on issues. That is a perfectly fair concern this early in the game.

Where does he stand on SS, job creation, environment, and the capablity to govern people? In my opinion, commanding armed forces is NOT the same as governing people in a state.

You can find his recently released economic plan at the official website. It was released yesterday, and yes, it is similar to Kerry's. Great minds think alike?

A General is not a dictator, however. Yes, those in his command had to follow orders, but to be really effective, a general has to make people WANT to follow orders. I've heard evidence that he was effective at this. If his ideas are right and he motivates people to carry them out, that is excellent.

I don't see the president's primary role as being to govern so much as to lead the people. We need to get their attention in the middle of the road, and lead them back to the safety of the left side.

Politics is the art of compromise and in the modern world, this skill is learned well in variety of professions, including the military.

I share your concern a little because I remember Carter didn't want to play the Washington game the way Tip O'Neil wanted and they made it difficult for him to be effective.

I support Clark and encourage others to listen to him, but I am always listening to everyone else too. I hope people just keep an open mind about all the candidates. It is unwise, however, to dismiss Clark while many questions remain to be answered. If your concern is that he doesn't know how Washington works, I think he probably knows how a bill becomes a law. :)

[davidinalameda]

16. you don't become NATO commander without political experience

he knows what the game is and probably better than some of the other candidates that are running

[quinnox]

17. Hold on, I thought Dean was the outsider

So Clark is the true outsider candidate then? I thought that was Dean's shtick.

[RobertFrancisK]

19. Campaign experiance and administrative experiance are 2 different things

True enough, Clark has never run a campaign before, which could hurt him a lot. However, he has worked with our allies in NATO, run the Pentagon budget (which is a HELL of a lot bigger than Vermont's) and other such administrative duties in the military. I think the fact that he had done these things proves he is even better prepared to run the national budget than anyone else in the race.
Clark will need a lot of on-the-job training during the campaign on how to run for office, but he will not need anymore than Dean, Kerry or Gephardt (the last two especially) on how to run the federal budget.

[maha]

20. Give him a chance.

If he doesn't address these concerns over the next few weeks, then we should all kick his butt. But he's a smart guy, and military guys care about non-military stuff, too, believe it or not. They aren't a separate species.

I'm eager to see how he does in the DEBATE this afternoon!

[Cush]

22. He does and he doesn't

Can't remember where I read it, might have been on one of the draft sites or an interview, but:

He's stated that he's met with heads of state (nothing too formal), worked with European Officials, worked with Local Government Officals (in European countries...similar to county type gov's), worked with the Congress etc,.

From what I've heard, NATO can be very political, and don't forget, he was also the head of SOuthern Command for a year or so. (Which I believe is Central/South AMerica)

So its not your typical Washington experience, but its more than Bush had coming into DC. Somethign about how the elected officials in Texas only meet like once or twice a year?

[Donna Zen]

23. One out of four

42 presidents (1 cash clown)

10 generals

Generals at that level are administrators and diplomats.

Right now, I want Clark's skills put to good use; America is not going to make an "on the job training" deal next year with kids dying in the desert. Sorry_just the fact that nearly half of my fellow citizens say they trust a monkey to run the country, must tell you something.

The people who enter politics are not necessarily qualified to do anything, that is a trick they play on you. Take "stem cell research" a subject which many in congress and WH have spent hours pontificating about. WTF does bush know about the subject that you couldn't learn from a briefing paper. Nothing! Go through the subjects....the environment, civil rights, judicial reform,......And the issues and spin are constantly changing. Tom Delay is a damn exterminator and one of the most powerful people in Washington. What we need in the oval office is a smart and progressive leader who knows how to solve problems, and that could be anyone of them... The AEI and HERITAGE foundation are taking us down the tubes.

[DinahMoeHum]

24. Actually, that may well be an asset among potential voters

who proclaim to be sick of politicians.

Clark would represent a breath of fresh air for them, and they just might get off their asses and vote for him.

BTW, Eisenhower didn't have "political experience" either, and the rest is history.


:kick:

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

27. I like Clark. I also like Kerry and Graham and Edwards.

They are effective communicators who - unlike Dean, who is in my opinion our worst candidate (mostly because of his undeserved front-runner status) - combine serious passion with serious knowledge, and an ability to spar verbally with hostile interviewers without looking like they just soiled their jockeys.

Clark is a good man, and a strong candidate. We'd be lucky to have him.

[w13rd0]

28. I myself am a Dean supporter...

...but see absolutely no utility in attacking Clark. Clark is bringing Reagen Dems and disgruntled white men into the tent. Hoorah! As Jon Stewart says:

Come for the General
Stay for the Elections

Anyone taking shots at Bush, knocking him down a few pegs, eating away at his base, energizing people...I applaud all this. I'll watch how he does in today's debates. If he gets the nomination, he'll have my vote. Until then, he's not my candidate, but I don't think anyone can argue that he appeals to certain segments of the population that might not otherwise a) vote D or b) participate...

[VOX]

29. He certainly has leadership experience...

And extensive experience in negotiating, dealing with deep-dish bureaucracy, etc. So it's not that aspect of Clark that I'm uneasy with.

The only downside of Clark having no "official" political experience is that the public does not have a long-term snapshot of where he has stood on various salient issues.

In this regard, he is something of a cypher.

[dfong63]

33. Clark's leadership experience was in leading people who had no choice

... which is far different from the kind of leadership that is needed in a civilian political leader, where people DO have a choice.

[NNN0LHI]

34. We have had an all volunteer military for about 30 years now n/t