OK, convince me to NOT be unpatriotic

[manic expression]

I have no love for the flag, and I do not care for the country as a whole (consumer culture, etc). Although I do feel a bit of guilt for doing so, I see no reason to have love for my country. Why should I? What are the benefits of being patriotic? For all I have seen of this phenomenon is the waving of flags over murder and injustice.

From the founding of this country (and even before that), I have reasons to object to our actions. However, it is most importantly our present course which makes it impossible for me to have any affinity for my own government/country (this does not include individuals of this country at all, as people deserve my respect unless there are obvious reasons for the contrary).

I would really like to hear other people's opinions on this matter.

[porphyrian]

1. The ideal is worth standing up for...

...even if it's never been delivered. However, you could just as easily be humanitarian instead and avoid the bureaucracy of a government.

[Zenlitened]

2. Fortunately, for now at least, there is no law that requires you...

... to feel patriotic.

I myself believe that there are American ideals entirely worthy of respect and admiration.

The actions of impostor Americans like the Bush cabal and their idiotic enablers don't diminish those ideals for me.

[marmar]

3. You can love your country but hate what's bad about it...

including the government. I, too, don't feel particularly patriotic these days, but it's important to remember that the flag-waving "God and America" crowd, the John Birch Society racists and so on can't claim ownership to all things American. We're all a part of it, from Malcolm X Boulevard in Harlem, to little Havana in Miami, to Koreatown in Los Angeles, to the Castro in San Francisco - we all have ownership in America, whether or not we feel like we're on the outside looking in sometimes.

[OrlandoGator]

4. Patriotism is not nationalism.

Patriotism is standing up for a country's ideals, even when the country does not.

[manic expression]

14. That's a good point

If I stand up for ideals that are not only missed but scorned by the country in question, then are those ideals still those country's ideals? Perhaps those ideals are pan-national, not exclusive to America, then what does that country which has no love for what I believe in have so that I should have pride in it?

The "ideals" of what America should be are not represented by the flag, nor the anthem, nor the pledge...so should I have any respect for those misused entities?

(sorry about all the questions)

[Raiden]

24. Ding! Ding! Ding!

The right has done a brilliant job at blurring the lines between patriotism and nationalism; I however am not fooled

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Because you're a part of our society

And as a part of our society, you have a vested interest in our society's success. Thus, it's in your own self interest to cheer for its success.

:shrug:

[Inland]

6. Let's break it down.

Patriotism is a number of feelings that aren't pathological.

1. The affection for your own side, like rooting for your high school sports team thirty years after you graduate.

2. The affection for the places, traditions, customs that have been part of your life.

3. The acknowledgement of the mutuality of the people in the country where you live, in shared purposes, shared ideals, shared goals, common endeavors, and an implicit promise to promote the common good.

I think the last one is the most obligating; when tornadoes struck Kansas, Eisenhower said "Americans need our help", and that was enough. It's enough because we have a pact with each other as Americans. There isn't any reason why that is so. It doesn't have to be so. The extent, and nature, of the mutuality isn't defined and it is ad hoc. But it really exists.

[politicaholic]

7. Would you be satisfied with anywhere?

I have a friend who questions everything in his life, reads like a maniac, drinks like a fish, and can't hold a regular job for any length of time because he can't stand authority in any form. He finally figured out that the country he loathes with such passion (the US) is the only place he wants to live because at least he can move to the mountains and drop out. Live off the land in a cabin and die alone with his books without any sort of backlash or sudden regime change that would annex his land.

There was something very interesting on the show The Sopranos. There's a Russian lady on the show that said, (summery, not verbatim) "Americans are the only ones who aren't afraid of losing everything. Everyone in the rest of the world realizes that they can lose everything in an instant, including their lives, and they live accordingly."

Patriotism isn't what it's all about. Freedom isn't what it's all about. Some people fight for ideals, some for God, some for self worth, and some because they're afraid of the alternative if they don't fight. Just because there happens to be a flag there doesn't add up to a hill of beans.

Patriotism is just a tool to control the masses. That's all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. You might take refuge in the notion that patriotism

does not equate with nationalism.

Patriotism, as I see it, is a belief in the ideals of the people.

Nationalism is nothing more than tribalism, writ large.

Patriotism wants the best for and from your country and will strive for improvement.

Nationalism believes in the exceptionalism of your country and believes that no improvement is warranted or necessary, because your country is automatically best by not being the other country.

Patriotism: My country, may it always be right, but my country right or wrong.

Nationalism: My country, right or wrong.

[manic expression]

17. I can see that

however, I do not want to bring myself to be proud in something that I know is wrong. For instance, I could half-heartedly find some respect for America during the 60's, when progress was being made with civil rights and when the people and government actually did some things that were worthy of admiration (with a huge fight). Even then, the Great Society would be "shot down over the battlefields of Vietnam" (to paraphrase MLK), and America would sink into yet another phase of jingoism, imperialism and injustice. Could I stand for a flag that flew over the charred bodies of innocents in Vietnam? I don't think I could. Could I respect a country which carried out such a travesty? I do not think I would.

I guess my one line is: My country can be right or wrong, and I will respect it and act accordingly.

[toddaa]

9. Landscape Patriotism and the Constitution

A very perceptive German explained to me how he feels about his country. He loves the beauty of the land. I love America the place. The Rocky Mountains and the Great Plains are my vision of what paradise is. I also admire the philosophy of our Constitution and the fact that for one all too brief moment in America's history, the ideals of the Enlightenment were put into practice. Apart from that, I'm with you.

[rogue_bandit]

10. I say the pledge

I say the pledge twice a month before council meetings. I feel strange about it, since I believe you pledge once and after that it's a matter of your own conscience, but these people seem to think it is important to make the same pledge over and over again.

I don't say, "under God" at those plegdes because that was not my original pledge. I am 57 years old. My first years of school did not include "under God" in the pledge. When the new rule came into place I was made to feel like an idiot because I could not remember to include "under God" in the written test of the pledge (required to move on to the next grade level).

No one has called me on it yet at council meetings, though I can certainly hear the absence of my vocal vibrations as the "under God" part of the group pledge.

It feels odd, but you know what? I am still proud to live in my neighborhood, city, county, state and country...indeed I am proud to live on Earth. Given the history of human laws and social customs, we are doing well. 227 years ago humans started a new experiment. The principles are still around for anyone to see, many people are giving their lives to further those principles, and many people are sacrificing their family's fortunes to see that those principles continue to be experimented with.

[johnaries]

11. "The Stars, LIke Dust..."

was a SF novel by Isaac Asimov (an immigrant from Russia) written in the 40's or 50's. It was a spy novel of the future, in which a rebellion was starting against the Galactic Empire. The Rebellion reportedly had acquired the Ulimate Weapon that could destroy the Empire, and the empire was trying to steal it. The Ultimate Weapon was in two parts. In the end, you find out the 2 parts were the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

The Ultimate Weapons are ideas and ideals.

As a country, we may not have acheived our ideals as yet. But we have some ideas of how to get there.

Striving to acheive those ideals make you a Patriot.

[ComerPerro]

12. The ideal, the people, and home

Those are my reasons.

[seeminer21]

13. Don't worry

Their reign of terror can't last forever. We an elect better. People will wake up. (I hope)

[newyawker99]

23. Hi seeminer21!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[LSK]

15. i tend to agree somewhat

Nationalism is an evil of the world. It can be used to manipulate societies into destructive wars.

And why exactly are we supposed to be proud to be Americans??? Why should I, a person born in 1972, take any credit in the Good that Americans did in the past such as WWII vets, yet the Americans in my lifetime are selfish war mongers (at least half of them).

The one greatest thing about the Live 8 concerts as far as Im concerned is that the rest of the world is uniting and throwing down borders while we here in the US are putting up borders. I am jealous of the EU for that reason.

Id like to see one world society where we are all united.

[judy]

16. Easy, don't worry...

Be unpatriotic...Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels - as Samuel Johnson so rightly put it.

Patriotism has nothing to do with love of country. Love of country means love of all the people who live in it, love and respect for all people around the world who are affected by it, and a desire to help your country have policies that make it a catalyst for peace on earth.

[manic expression]

19. Well, I must say...

I totally agree with that. Thanks for those comments.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer said it, and I believe it.

And:

"Patriotism is the egg from which wars are born." de Mauppasant

"Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy." G.B. Shaw

"Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool." John Dryden

[manic expression]

22. Great quotes...

Those words outline what I am feeling quite well.

"When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where
they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
-Abraham Lincoln

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. That's a great Lincoln quote. I've been trying to find it.

Thanks. Added to my list of great quotes.

[heidler1]

20. To say you have no patriotic feelings pretty much destroys any ability

that you might have to influence others. To maximize your influence try your hardest to claim a higher level of patriotic ideals that will preserve the United States through this blunder called Iraq.

I went to the VFW last night and got into a discussion about why a fellow member felt that we were justified in the mistreatment of prisoners of war because of their brutality. I claimed that any additional brutality on our part would be counter productive because it gives their leaders verbal ammo to justify increasing their brutality. He than asked, "How can we win than?"

I replied, "We started a war under false pretenses and now we can't get out of it because it would cause a disaster. However if we keep this up for two more years that will still be true except more of our boys will be dead or wounded."

He agreed with that.

Thus I might of made some dent in his concept of patriotism.

To me the main reason Bush's Iraqi approach sucks is we are supposedly in a battle for human minds those who support Bush tend to see it as a tit for tat killing situation. While those like me who think it was a blunder from the get go feel that it is still so pretentious that failure is inevitable.

[GeekMonkey]

21. Our Country - Love it or FIX IT!

Help bring the ideals you cherish into being.