Ok ok so what is the objective of AQ?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Lets ask the obvious question, what do they want?

They want to drive us out of the ME, and to create a Caliphate.

They don't care if we live our lives of decadence as long as we don't impose that upon them.

They have REJECTED western culture which they see as imperialist, colonialist and all other ugly isms.

It is an ideology

They don't hate us for our freedoms, they just don't want us to impose our freedoms on them.

So far they have been able to force us out of Saudi Arabia, and are using Iraq as a training ground and have become quite a flat organization.

What is the true lesson of 9.11? The true lesson is our leaders refuse to learn what is the enemy and many of our fellow citizens continue to underestimate the threat. Yes they were tied to the CIA at one point, hell they learned our play book in Afghanistan,... but they are not our tools. In our dislike of bush many folks have forgotten that AQ is a real threat to us.

Now once we understand the nature of the problem we can better deal with it... and a lot of it is based in the conditions on the ground, poverty, desperation and the need to lash out.

Yes a small semi rant after a whole day of discussing this with people who have no clue why terra works and what is the final objective of terra, which is to change the nature of society... and in that sense AQ has been far more successful than I believe they expected.

[pocket]

1. They want Spain back

Spain, Andalusia, whatever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. what you buy that tripe of a clash of civilizations

I don't

I don't think they want Spain back... they just wanted Spain out of the ME...

[pocket]

6. i'm not saying I buy it, but

"the tragedy of Andalusia" was pretty high on OBL's list of greivances.

Whether or not that list was composed by the CIA/Mossad/BFEE is another matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Stop linking AQ to the CIA et al

they stopped having anything in common in 1989, they are quite capable of drawing their own lists....

The failure of the east, insofar as they are concerned, started with the end of WW I... roll back the clock to before teh Paris Conference of 1918

But STOP thinking that AQ is a tool of the CIA... they are not...

[Frederik]

62. I wouldn't be so categorical

Throughout the 90s, "al-Qaida's" targets usually overlapped with the targets of American and British aggression.

A Dutch parliamentary investigation conducted a couple of years ago found that US military intel clandestinely brought "al-Qaida"/mujaheddin into Bosnia to fight the Serbs between 1993 and 95. Bin Laden probably had a Bosnian passport at the time. US arms were funnelled through the Bosnian Muslims to the Arab mujaheddin. Around 1997-98, Bin Laden went to Kosovo, and al-Qaida began training and joining the Kosovo Liberation Army, which was soon to be trained by the SAS, German BND etc. as well. Mohammed al-Zawahiri, brother of Ayman, joined the KLA in time for the War on Serbia, when NATO functioned as the Air Force of al-Qaida and of Europe's most ruthless heroin cartel.

It has emerged that British MI6 paid a Libyan al-Qaida cell £100,000 in 1995 to assassinate Qaddafi in Libya. They obviously don't have any qualms with taking money from the "enemy".

You can't talk about al-Qaida without talking about Pakistan's ISI which maintained most of the training camps in Afghanistan and which practically owned the Taliban. The ISI trained Shamil Besayev who is the leader of the jihad in Chechnya. They have trained mujaheddin to destabilize the Central Asian former Soviet republics and to fight against India in Kashmir. Suffice to say that Pakistan's geopolitical ambitions are compatible with those of the US. Specifically, the idea of an "arch of crisis" along Russia's southern rim, adopted by Zbigniew Brzezinski (who got it from British spook-academic Bernard Lewis) when he was Carter's security adviser.

The common denominator among the various groups which are often linked to al-Qaida and which operate in Asia, is that they all seem to be supported clandestinely by the Pakistani government. The better-trained members of Jamaat Islamiyah, the Indonesian group which was probably responsible for the Bali bombing, are trained in Pakistani camps run by the Lashkar-e-Taiba, which the Pakistani govt. simply denies the existence of. The brother of "Hambali", who was caught shortly after the Bali bombing, was later arrested in Pakistan where he had received a government scholarhip under a false name and worked to transport 200 Indonesian, Malaysian, and Thai jihadists to and from LeT camps. Omar Saed Sheikh, who wired $100,000 to 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta on instruction from ISI chief general Mahmoud Ahmad (a close friend of presidet Musharraf), and who is sentenced to death for the murder of WSJ journalist Daniel Pearl (which he probably didn't commit), was the leader of Jaish-e-Muhammed, which fought in Kashmir, and frequented the jet set of the Pakistani establishment.

So al-Qaida's objectives, who knows. I don't even know if al-Qaida exists, or in what form. Apparently some people in Iraq use the name, but anyone can pick up the label al-Qaida, it doesn't mean they are connected to a larger organization or take instructions from anyone outside their little group. As for being a tool, maybe, just maybe, but for whom?

Judging by Bin Laden's statements, he wants the US and Britain to stop interfering in Middle Eastern affairs. In his latest videotape, he asks rhetorically (assuming it's really him): "Have you asked yourselves why we didn't attack Sweden?"

Western pundits like to claim that "al-Qaida's" objectives are to destroy everything we hold dear, plunge us back into the Middle Ages and crush Western civilization. Not if you want to believe Bin Laden. The question is, do you?

My best bet for the London attackers is that they were Iraq war "vets". But I won't completely rule out a "strategy of tension" attack either ("Real IRA" style). We shall see what the investigation will uncover. The latest speculation I heard on the CNN was a Moroccon man involved in the Madrid bombing linked to London-based cleric Abu Qatada.

An interesting anecdote on Qatada: Bisher al-Rawi, who was kidnappet by the CIA or something similar in Gambia in 2002, while on a business trip on behalf of Abu Qatada, claimed before a US military tribunal that he was a "go-between" for MI5 and Qatada. The tribunal agreed to call thre MI5 agents named by al-Raqwi as defense witnesses, but the British government refused to let them give evidence.

"His claims follow allegations, by Islamist militants as well as French security sources, that Abu Qatada had contacts with British intelligence, which the Palestinian strongly denies."
- The Independent, January 16 2005 (the story seems to have disappeared from their website).

Abu Qatada is rumoured to be an "agent provocateur" among many London Muslims.

[wli]

54. Battle of Covadonga?

This is way too old. If he hasn't gotten over the events of 722 by now he's certifiable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. The US is not familiar with this problem

older cultues with older histories remember events that yuo and I may shake our head over.. but this is far more recent, he has not gotten over the disaster which was the Paris Conference of 1918

[barb162]

34. Why don't you just go to bin Laden's many writings

where he delineates what he's after (getting the infidels ot of the land of the "two holy places," getting Palestine "back" etc)

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Oh I have

but it is not a clash, but it is quickly becomnig one, that thing about adding gasline and oxygen to an active fire

[DireStrike]

2. I know, I have explained it to them in my head many times

It's about as productive as trying to explain it to them in person, and it cuts down on stress!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. trust me we did have a very long and heated argument wiith

a progresive who is using every stereotype from the MSM... and I mean every one of them...

[Mythsaje]

4. We just ran around this topic

in my "Hate Bin Laden?" thread last night.

Some people just CAN'T get it, even when it's handed to them directly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I think the dislike of bush is

blinding some people, but what they want is not what we want... lord

[Mythsaje]

27. This newbie

is terrified that OBL and his followers want to kill us all until we convert... he took a letter OBL wrote as evidence to the fact...I tried to explain that, even if OBL WANTED that result, he'd have a hell of a time recruiting enough people to do anything but make funny noises if we weren't playing the Neo-Colonial game in the Muddle East.

He never got it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Don't be terrirfied they win when you do

[geek tragedy]

9. They want to purge the Muslim world of modernity and western influence.

They want to permanently replace all civil law with sharia. They want to crush any attempts at reform. They want to do away with democracy, women's rights, etc etc.

In other words, they want to oppress Muslims.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. no they want to go back to a mythical world

where Muslims dominated the culture, that is teh 12th century (not unlike our christian right in some ways)... they don't see this as opresiion

What they see as opresion is colonialism and imperialism and the impossition of OUR values upon them. For once try to put yourself in their shoes... and by the way modernity has not really brought them that much good, at least the people... thnk about that one for a minute. (I am talking here preception not reality, we can have a discusion whether some modern things have helped the Arab world as well, which they have),

This exercise needs to be done, people need to know what they want, and where they are coming from

[geek tragedy]

12. They want to deny their fellow Muslims the right to choose their own

destiny.

They want to impose THEIR values on all Muslims everywhere.

They're theocratic imperialists.

[wtmusic]

13. Um, just like the Christian Right does?

Let's put our terra-ists against theirs in the Roman Coliseum and settle this thing once and for all.

[geek tragedy]

23. If you can round 'em up, I'll book the venue. eom

[XemaSab]

36. I'll chip in for the deposit

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. like all radicals, that is why they are called radicals

dobson, is from the same cloth

[wtmusic]

11. The 'need to lash out'

might be better described as pride in the Muslim Nation, which is worldwide and has little respect for Western-style boundaries

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. they are lashing out aganst US tryuing to impose our freedoms

on them... and again looking back at an idealized form of life going back oh to the 12th century

[geek tragedy]

17. They also oppose the efforts of other Muslims to modernize and move away

from Medieval times.

The strategy is to get the US and other Western societies completely out of Muslim societies, and then purge Muslim society of modernity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. For some factions that is correct

again look at our own religious kooks... two sides of the same coin

[geek tragedy]

16. A short list of what they want:

1. They want to destroy the state of Israel, and they demand that the US not interfere with that destruction.

2. They want to abolish all secular governments and laws in Muslim countries. They want Sharia to govern all aspects of Muslim life.

3. They want us to convert to Islam.

4. They want us to adopt their puritanical, medieval moral codes--including the rolling back of women's and gay rights.

5. They want us to stop supporting India in Kashmir and Russia in Chechnya and the Philippines in their struggles with Islamic militants.

6. They want an end to American influence on Muslim societies, and for Americans to be disallowed from entering Muslim countries.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. If you boil it down what they want is

the end of COlonialism and imperialism... and a regturn to an idealized life in teh 12th century, as I said once you understand the enemy it is easier to deal with it

[geek tragedy]

21. They want to end western imperialism so that they can impose their

own brand of theocratic imperialism upon other Muslims.

They're the bad guys in the struggle for the future of Islam.

[Lexingtonian]

19. too complicated

These folks look around their native societies and see corruption and screwups, and the worst of them are all associated with Western symbols and material interests, elites prostituted to trivial or Western-ish interests and Western people, and bad or badly implemented ideas from the West. (Actually, 'Occidental' is a better word than Western, but it seems a little off on an American online discussion board.)

The most charitable interpretation to give the likes of Al Qaeda is that they want to purge their societies of all these corruptions and material/psychological colonialism relative to the West. The result desired is that these societies get reisolated from the global currents and powers, evolve all on their own. The end of that may be a perfected Islam, or it many not- AQ might not really care, as long as the societies have free choices in the matter.

The harshest interpretation is that Al Qaeda is engaged in a Manichaean, absolutist and eliminationist, fight for the world and world power in which the deaths of a few innocents are incidental and unavoidable relative to the great need for The Good to prevail over The Evil. And they've found their gnostic enemy in the Bush/Nixon people now in power in Washington and their allies worldwide, who are overt Gnostics of a different sort than themselves.

Al Qaeda is both of these things, more one than the other at different times. The two parts are not necessarily coherent or consistent, or even likely to succeed; they just Are. Death cult and Liberation movement. Just like the Bush crowd.

[Imajika]

20. No, I don't agree...

"They don't care if we live our lives of decadence as long as we don't impose that upon them."

Sorry, they do care. They might not care much what happens in the United States at this moment, but the growing Muslim populations in Europe, Africa and Asia do care about what they perceive as decadence and un-Islamic lifestyles in the countries they reside in.

Take a look at the situation on the ground in Southern Thailand - Islamic fanatics are beheading and slaughtering Bhuddist citizens (particularly Monks and teachers) on a regular basis. The Islamic terrorists operating in Southern Thailand have murdered hundreds of innocents in just the last year - and that has NOTHING whatever to do with what America does or does not do, nor does it have anything to do with Israel.

Islam, already a very political religion, has been deeply infected by the militant Saudi Wahabbists. The seeds are already sewn in the form of billions of dollars of Saudi cash funding madrassas and mosques staffed with religious fanatics.

Though I am not for nation building in Iraq, or even Afghanistan for that matter, the West does confront a horrific enemy in radical Islamists. It really isn't even the United States that is most at risk. It is European nations with huge numbers of dissaffected Muslim minorities, it is African nations falling under the sway of Shari-a law, it is nations like Thailand struggling to find a way to deal with a radicalized Muslim population...

"They don't hate us for our freedoms, they just don't want us to impose our freedoms on them."

Your right, they don't hate us for our freedoms, they hate what we do with those freedoms. Islamic extremists hate our un-Islamic lifestyles. Europe has become a breeding groud of home grown Muslim radicals who literally detest the liberal, secular lifestyles of the majority of the citizens in the very nations in which they live.

"Now once we understand the nature of the problem we can better deal with it"

Sorry, but you really can't deal with it. The best we can do is isolate it, and hope and pray that Muslims themselves deal with the radicals amongst them. If they do not, we will find ourselves in the clash of civilizations the neocons have wanted all along.

Want to really go after Islamic radicalism? Stop the Saudi's from funding madrassas across the globe, ban all Saudi clerics from teaching anywhere outside their own country, freeze all Saudi cash from going to any charity anywhere. That would be a good start.

Imajika

[ChiDem]

22. LOL...

:bounce: :bounce:

"What is the true lesson of 9-11"

9-11 was for revenge and punishment, and a test, a test that has already been failed by Americans in the worst possible way.

The revenge and punishment was for our foregin policy history, sticking our noses in every nations business, installing brutal dictators, supporting dictators, death squads, rigged elections, drug running, murder, and just plain old manipulation of whatever we please, regardless of who it hurts or kills. We have done it all.

The test part is very recent, the lesson of 9-11 was that our foreign policy actions will breed hate for the US and ultimately terrorism, it's all very easy to understand once you know our history.

The first test after 9-11 was the Iraq war, The Bush/Blair lies were exposed BEFORE the war, the people had a very simple choice to make, do they wage war based on these exposed lies ? ..or do they change their ways...Do they show that they have learned the lesson of 9-11, and pass the test.

As we all know...they failed the test.

[geek tragedy]

25. Project much?

You didn't mention religion--a rather odd summary of a theocratic absolutist's agenda.

[SaintLouisBlues]

40. Interesting article in today's Post-Dispatch, which I agree with.

Downplays the religious aspect:

London attacks show Iraq is not the only battlefront
By Jon Sawyer
Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau Chief
07/07/2005

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/world/story/C454DC052AB46D80862570380016AC8E?OpenDocument

snip:

"Robert A. Pape, a University of Chicago political scientist, has made an extensive study of suicide terrorism worldwide since 1980. His new book, "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism," contends that modern-day terrorism, including that of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida, is far less related to Islamic fundamentalism than most observers believe - that it is driven instead by coherent political aims, especially the desire to expel what are perceived as armies of occupation.

In an interview Thursday, Pape said the lesson of London is that al-Qaida and like-minded groups are alive and well, systematically focused on the clearly defined goal of forcing U.S. and allied troops out of predominantly Muslim countries.

"This is just part of the continuing al-Qaida attack," Pape said. "Although many have hoped that al-Qaida had been weakened by American counterterrorist attacks, the facts are otherwise."

The London attacks mark the 15th terrorist event since 2002 linked to al-Qaida or associated groups, he said. Those attacks have killed over 700 people - more deaths than attributed to al-Qaida in all the years before the 9/11 attacks combined."

[geek tragedy]

42. Using a blanket analysis to cover Palestinian nationalists and

transnational terrorists makes no sense at all.

Why the hell would European or Moroccan Muslims sign up for AQ missions, according to this theory?

This attempt to paint AQ and other jihadis as nothing more than freedom fighters with unfortunate tactics is hogwash.

[SaintLouisBlues]

60. The * administration agrees with you

Works much better in the fear department.

Blanket analysis?

His theory, based on hard information, discounts religious fundamentalism, but doesn't eliminate it as a factor.

[geek tragedy]

64. Again, transnational groups have a mixed secular and religious

agenda.

They want to rid their lands of US and Western influence and troops.

But they also have a further agenda--stopping what they view as the corrupting and decadent and anti-Islamic facets of modernity.

So, yes the secular agenda of getting rid of foreign troops and influence is a part of their agenda. But it is only part of a much larger agenda.

Al Qaeda is not Hamas.

[Rex]

24. They beat the USSR

and are currently kicking our collective butts! Hubris will be our downfall.

[geek tragedy]

26. How is AQ kicking our butts? eom

[ChiDem]

28. Lets be honest now

Osama said in this letter that his goal is to bankrupt the US.

"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said in the transcript."


LINK: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/

Now go take a look at our spending...

[geek tragedy]

29. That's a self-inflicted wound. Full blame for that rests on W's desk. n/t

[ChiDem]

30. Lets just say...

They both want to bankrupt the USA.

Osama to destroy it..

And Bush just plain ole wants to rape the Treasury out of pure greed, and perhaps to kill a mountain of social programs.

In the end, I believe Osama was behind 9-11.

and in the end...we are spending billions upon billions because of Osama.

Not really 'self inflicted'

[geek tragedy]

31. Iraq and the Halliburton contracts certainly weren't part of the war on

terror. A smart president would not have dumped all of that money down the drain.

[ChiDem]

33. I agree.

But Osama didn't attack the US when there was a smart president serving. Another quote from Osama...

"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations," bin Laden said."

[Retired AF Dem]

61. The first WTC bombing?

The embassy's in Africa. Osama has been attacking us no matter who is president.

[Rex]

32. Well they took down the WTC and control most of Afghanistan

plus the forced us out of Saudi Arabia and now are killing our troops on a daily basis in Iraq. I could go on.

[geek tragedy]

35. AQ and the Taliban do not control most of Afghanistan.

Their replacements, the warlords, are no saints, but it is simply incorrect to say that AQ controls any major portions of Afghanistan.

We had troops in Saudi Arabia in order to contain/invade Iraq. After the invasion, it didn't make sense to keep troops there.

Are the people shooting at US troops Iraqis or AQ?

[Rex]

37. Good question

I would imagine most of the killing is by Iraqis. AQ no doubt is teaching the population how to kill more troops as every day passes. I would bet you that every warlord in the region is Taliban or has a contact in AQ. We had troops in Saudi Arabia until OBL warned us that if we didn't leave he would do something drastic, looks like he did.

[geek tragedy]

41. I suspect that the Iraqis like the AQ fighters even less than they like

American troops.

[Rex]

43. Why? We Americans are the Great Satan!

Haven't you been paying attention?

[geek tragedy]

45. According to whom?

Most Arabs and Muslims don't use that kind of gibberish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. No but I am sure you are familiar iwth Iraqi history

tell me exactly why the brits finally left in 1955

You are also familiar with that saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

The Afghani Tribes did not like them Arabs durign teh 80s, but they liked teh soviets even less

[Frederik]

63. There have been reported clashes

between foreign jihadists and Iraqi insurgents. I think there insurgency is split between those who welcome all the help they can get and those who don't appreciate the presence of the jihadists.

[geek tragedy]

65. Indeed. And that's the Sunni insurgents. The Shiite opponents to the

occupation certainly have no willingness to work with the AQ crowd, considering that AQ has a habit of bombing Shiite mosques.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. the taliban are their friends

by the way, we blew it at Tora bora and we blew the three month window we had to change the dinamic, and AQ has taken adtvantage to become a very flat organization that has become harder to fight

I understand why many folks still under estimate them... if people admited how effective they are, they become very scary indeed.

[Disturbed]

38. Read Osama's letter and judge for yourselves.

My view: If he and AQ wanted to destroy Amerika and the Saudi Royals why not destroy Saudi oil fields? The want Amerika and it's allies out of the ME, period.

Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

[geek tragedy]

44. Getting the US out of the Mideast is only a means to an end.

His larger goal is clear and indisputable from that letter--he wants to purge secularism and civil authority from Muslim societies. He wants a return to strict theocracy.

And, of course, he wants to kill all of the Jews.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. He wants the end of Western Imperialism

what part of he has rejected the West and its culture are you havng a problem comphrehending?

Evne when given the evidence in the letter you are still having a problem dealign with this.. and you are repeating right wing talking points

Let me quote from Tsu Tsu

The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties
is knowledge of the enemy; and this knowledge can only
be derived, in the first instance, from the converted spy.
Hence it is essential that the converted spy be treated
with the utmost liberality.

[geek tragedy]

53. I'm reading from his letter. And please spare me the idiotic

accusation that I'm using rightwing talking points.

What part of what I'm saying isn't true or is rightwing propaganda?

He wants to install hardline theocracies in all Muslim countries. That isn't even debatable. But he has to kick out the modernizing influence of Western culture in order to do that.

It is really damn silly and naive to think that he is an anti-imperialist. He wants to launch his own war against the governments of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc etc and replace them and their laws with some goddamn medieval theocracy where everything is governed by Sharia. It's right in his own statements.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Ok lets define terms

Imperialism is a very specific animal, what Bin Ladin wants is a return to the 12th century and a caliphate, it is not imperial in the western sense of the word.

We have played right into his hands...

As to the modernizing influence of western culture, I have come to conclude that every radical religious nut wants to get rid of it, regardless where you are.. and this includes our Religious Right.

Both sides want a final battle of Armagedon and they feed from each otehr

But Bin Ladin, educcated in London as an Engineer, has rejected Western Culture and western values, taht is no the debate

But he is anti imperialist, if yuo think of what Imperialism is to him...

[geek tragedy]

57. He IS imperial in that he wants to overthrow secular governments

and impose his own version of theocracy upon Muslis worldwide.

It's a theocratic imperialism, whereas Europe practiced a colonial kind of imperialism and the US practices a corporate imperialism.

He not only rejects Western culture and ideas, but also wants to forbid other Muslims from experiencing Western culture and ideas.

He resists one form of empire so that he can create his own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. For semantics sake

especially when trying to reach across a divide, I would not use the term when defining Bin Ladin... theocracy absolutely... (which has to be extended to all the loons around the world they all wish to return to a so called simpler idealized time), but don't use the term, it will drive your listener, especially if they are from the area, away from you. it has to do with very recent history

What he wants to do is create a new caliphate over the muslim lands, and yes he is a real threat, you and I are not under estimating him one bit... but be careful with the langauge, and by the way, sorry was having an off board discusion with somebody who cannot see why they are so dangerous (and is himself using neo colonial language, and right wing talking points) so my apologies.

Now that we know what they want, we need to marginalize these people. And now I will use a very wide brush to also include Focus on the Family for instance (they are the other side of the same coin) It reminds me of Carl Sagan and his last book and how warlocks and witches are coming back... and this is the challenge of our times, how to deal with thiese people... and when it comes to bin ladin, the bushes have been adding fuel and oxygen to the fire...

[geek tragedy]

59. Fair enough. But the point that gets lost here is that he gets described

as someone who opposes imperialism, without people mentioning that his goals go far, far beyond resisting US power and involve far worse oppression and treatment of Muslims than anything the US has contemplated.

Kind of like the USSR was nominally anti-imperialist, even though they themselves were merely another form of empire.

[XemaSab]

39. The simple lesson of the middle east:

stay out of the middle east.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. No we need to change the conditions on the ground

that will take time, money and blood and treasure, but we are adding gasiline to the fire... not changing those conditions... which means reducing if not outright eliminating poverty.... but that is a matter for a whole different thread.

[XemaSab]

66. The middle east is a very wealthy area

with an ancient, learned culture.

I think the middle east can take care of the middle east. One of the reasons OBL is pissed at us is because we prop up governments like the saudi government and saddam hussein.

I think in many african countries, much of asia, and some of latin america we should try to "change the conditions on the ground" with "time, money, and blood and treasure," but there, as in the middle east, we've spent a snotload of effort propping up corrupt governments. In many of the aforementioned areas, they don't have buckets of money or a long, long, long history of science, arts, and learning. (I'm not saying there aren't ancient and noble cultures in these areas, I'm saying that the ancient cultures don't provide a stable societal framework).