ESSENTIALLY, AMERICANS HAVE LOST FAITH.

[leanin_green]

Hi everyone. I've been away for awhile and haven't been posting. But, I have been reading and listening to everything that is going on.

As usual, DU is a source of great discussions, topics and information. I applaud all of you for your diligence. However, I detect an overall, permeating spirit within the discussion among progressives and conservatives alike. It manifests differently in each group. In conservatives it appears as callousness, anger and insensitivity to the pain and suffering of others. In progressives it shows up as pessimistic outbursts, infighting, general despondancy over the state of world affairs and the like. That spirit is an utter and complete loss of faith. Whether it be in the "American Dream," a just God, the ultimate goodness of people or the cause of Democracy. The one consistent message that is present in every discussion I have read and heard is the fact that nobody believes in anything anymore.

As an astrologer, I could say that it is the natural progression of Pluto in Sagittarius. The questioning of philosophies, beliefs, national identity and the like. Pluto strips everything down to its bare bones without guilt or remorse. It's in its nature to go to the core of anything it fixes its penetrating gaze on. This process has been going on for many decades. It's necessary for any entity at some time in its evolution to undergo an intense period of self-examination and introspection. During this time of dissolution, it's natural for there to be periods upheaval, clinging to cherished dreams and the status quo, lashing out and projecting onto others the blame for what can no longer be maintained in its present state.

As the agents of much of the destruction of the American system, BushCo is essentially the instrument of the demise of what I like to call, "The American Illusion." As it all comes crashing down around us many of us will become disoriented, confused, angry, pessimistic, despondant, and above all, FAITHLESS. But through it all, I would ask everyone to cling to one bit of understanding. HAVE FAITH IN THE PROCESS. Step back from time to time and take in the big picture. Step back yet further and take in the wonderment and workings of natural law. Begin to believe in the goodness of the process. How could things continue as they have been? How long could we expect everything to remain the same? When would we as a nation have to begin to pay down the debt of how and by what means we used to come into being? Celebrate the justice of nature and begin to place a new faith in how everything expands and contracts according to the natural process of creative evolution.

So, in this time of contractive darkness, remember to hold to this core principle. If you have any light at all, use it to show others the way out of the darkness. If any refuse the light, keep your peace within you and let them pass on into the darkness. Take care of those that have been placed in your sphere of influence and maintain the belief in the good fight. Maintain compassion, peace toward all and let every man resist violence as every man is able. I open the floor to comment and debate.

[Mythsaje]

1. You make some good points...

I said something similar a while back that suggested that maybe we, as Americans, needed this dark time to remember what the light was all about.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. We have accumulated tons of national Karma, both good and bad,

I only hope there is more of the good, than the bad.... what do you think about the prophecies of Edgar Cayce? He did write of these times... rather eloquently.

http://www.edgarcayce.org/

[leanin_green]

12. Edgar was cool. Check out this site.

http://www.ascension2000.com

There's a great deal of scientific, phiolosophical, metaphysical information there about the nature and composition of creation.

[Raksha]

57. Now here's an interesting bit of synchronicity.

I followed your link to the Edgar Cayce website, to the section of readings for "Times of Crisis" and I came upon this from 1932:

"This has NEVER been GOD’S way, will never be God’s way. Rather little by little, line upon line, here a little, there a little, each thinking rather of the other fellow, as that that has kept the world in the various ways of being intact - where there were ten, even, many a city, many a nation, has been kept from destruction."

The reference is to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible, where Abraham (still called Abram at that point) pleads with God to save Sodom if only ten righteous men can be found within the city. God agrees, but unfortunately the city has become so corrupted with extreme selfishness and lack of charity that no "quorum" can be found. At least this is the traditional Jewish interpretation, which apparently Cayce was using too. Unlike the fundie rantings about Sodom and Gomorrah, it has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Anyway, I had kind of a strange thought in connection with this passage. What if we--the much-maligned "bleeding heart liberals" here at DU and everywhere else--are the ones holding back a flood of negative karma that would otherwise engulf our country? Maybe it's our existence, and our holding fast to our values of sharing and compassion, that makes the triumph of justice at least a possibility, even if we haven't seen it yet.

I'm also thinking about another thread I just read here about why the freepers attacked our dear friend Andy Stephenson, who departed this world Thursday night. Somebody mentioned the Sodom and Gomorrah story on that thread also. Despite our extraordinary effots, we were unable to save Andy. But maybe in some "occult" sense I can't even begin to understand, we saved our country.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

87. What if we--the much-maligned "bleeding heart liberals" here at DU

Your gift is that you are able to think deeply, make rational associations and see through the smoke and mirrors of reality... I congratulate you on following this link and relating it to what is going down in our present day....

[wuushew]

3. The Pessimism is well founded, peak oil is real

The golden age of western material prosperity is over. We are not growing our way out of anything. The decline is here.

[natrat]

17. yea and what about the fucking polar bears all dieing out in 30 years

[MadisonProgressive]

19. There you go!

But it's not worth losing your sense of humor over. Humor may end up being the only thing keeping us sane.

[brindis_desala]

4. Natural process is fine but we are sentient creative beings

and our ability to survive rests equally on our ability to adapt. Unfortunately the forces of reaction have been allowed to set the agenda and often even those whose intentions are benign only end up adding to the pessimism, resentment and confusion. I tried discussing such problems here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4051847
often the breadcrumbs pointing our way to the truth are found hidden in the margins.

[Democrats_win]

7. We should adapt these ideas to help keep our focus.

We've seen the shock treatment yet again with the London bombings. If we did hang on to the idea that most things are basically good and that we've got to walk forward on the righteous path then maybe the lies and violence of the neocons will be left behind. Their biggest enemy is the march of time.

[leanin_green]

13. Sentient, yes. Creative, absolutely.

Which is why, as "sentient creative beings" I said we have to step back from time to time.
Consider the possibility that at any given time on the earth, 70% of the population is only able to comprehend, accept and operate within the consensus mentality. That is to say, that the concensus is basically living by what is dictated as reality by whatever mass consciousness rules the day. Twenty or so percent are people seeking to extract themselves from the consensus reality and experience themselves as individual and distinct beings apart from the rest of humanity. That leaves 10% percent of us seeking spiritual understanding or operating within a dimly-evolved state of consciousness. That is why change happens at such a slow pace. The mass is resistant to change and seeks to maintain the status quo.
As sentient beings, we need to understand that, for the most part, most of the population doesn't operate at a "sentient" level. They remain two-demensional in their behavior and needs. That is, they live for the greater part of the time within basic animal instinct and the necessity of survival. Many do not question life apart from, "where am I going to live, what am I going to eat, and what am I going to do to get what I need to survive?" Can we agree on this?

Now, factor in that the majority are led by those of the majority. How do I know this? Because anyone who seeks to separate themselves from the masses rarely seeks to be consumed by them. This is probably where the phrase, "the blind leading the blind" comes from. Everything you said is probably correct. Acknowledge that, step back from it, detach emotionally from the outcome and allow for the process to unfold before you.

[knowbody0]

5. thank you for these words

following that greater good, understanding that light extinguishes the darkness.
peace

[Gloria]

6. It is going on all over the world....for many, many months now,

as I've searched for articles for the World Media Watch, I've noticed recurring trends, all over the globe. I feel there is something hugely karmic happening to everyone on the planet.

Some of the major trends, which you see in many of the countries whose press I peruse are 1) the suppression of free media 2) the number of governments being run by "business" people 3) the upsurge in "religion" of the in your face kind....

Russia, China, you name it....it's all over the place....

[leanin_green]

16. Yes, and further. . .

this is a planetary process. The American Ideal was the last great idea to grab the imagination of the world. The whole world, in one form or another, has joined together through history to try to make that ideal a reality. Great things have been done in its name. Great evils have also been perpetrated in the advancement of its cause. In all of this we have to remember one important fact: "What becomes of a Great Ideal in the hands of men?"(mine) We are dual beings of light and dark. The epic battle has been for the dominance of one over the other in the hearts of man. The great hands on the cosmic clock are almost at the stroke of midnight. A great cycle is coming to a close within our little galaxy. The last drive for dominance of the darkness is at hand and we are witnesses to a great truth. That it IS always darkest before the dawn. That into EVERY life a little rain MUST fall. We are beginning to see the manner in which this darkness will manifest itself. In the established religions through fanaticism, theocracy and the blending of church and state. Through a legal system that only caters to the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. Through a value system and cultural philosophy spoon fed by mass communications, media images and pop culture. This is the America that much of the rest of the world rejects. An America that has no respect for cultural differences because it believes itself to BE the ultimate culture. It's as if the rest of the world is telling America, "We love your ideal, but we don't like what you've done with it."

[SpiralHawk]

8. I gave a short talk on Pluto in Sagittarius last night

With a focus on its transit through the final (Leo) decanate of Sag, and expressed some of the same ideas.

My friend Genoa B., also gave a short talk. He used the metaphor of the Cancerian crab to talk about American (Cancer nation, born July 4, 1776). He talked about how tender and sensitive the crab is inside its shell, but how hard and tough it can be on the outside. When the crab reaches out and grabs something with its claws, like Vietnam or Iraq, it can be quite unfeeling about what it is doing, and the consequences of its action. The claws don't have much of the sensitive stuff that is locked up inside, bemoaning its own tragedies and pains.

I thought he made a damn good point.

[newswolf56]

9. Interesting. I know nothing whatsoever about...

...political astrology, the astrology of nations (or even the astrology of cities) -- but I have been saying for years that we are in a period like unto that of post-Charlemagne Europe, which everywhere was plagued by a long succession of bad kings, rulers so despised they went into the history books as "Hugo the Sluggard," "Aethelred the Unready" or "Charles the Fat." Think how history might characterize Reagan (for his savaging of the disabled and the poor, both here and abroad): Ronald the Vicious; Bush senior (for the truth of his administration): George the Insignificant; Clinton (for the proclivities that enabled the GOP to paralyze his administration and drive the final nails into the coffin of the New Deal): William the Philanderer; Bush (for using a war to secure the Christofascist stranglehold on America and metastasizing its hatreds throughout the nation): George the Malignant.

[skooooo]

10. So how long will this go on?

I mean, what will the next phase of the solar calendar (or whatever) bring??

[leanin_green]

14. Well,

Pluto moves very slow. We are in a process of deconstruction. In order for anything to be built, the ground must be cleared, debris removed, foundations layed etc. Pluto deals with destruction and removal of outmoded and insufficient structures that no longer serve a useful purpose. The symbol of Pluto/Scorpio is the scorpion/eagle. In ancient texts, the eagle was the Pheonix. Out of the ashes, and so on. Sagitarrius deals with, in its positive manifestations, the seeking of truth, creation of philosophies, law, metaphysics and absolute truths. When these are distorted, you get, the establishment of dogma as truth,
suppression of true philosophy, law dictated by dogma, superstition and absolute dogma as truth. Can you see it operating within our own culture? I'm afraid we must suffer much more loss to the system we hold dear. The ruling elite have solidified power and rigged the vote. This has to be so now.

[housewolf]

42. I don't exactly have an answer for you..

but those who study the ancient Mayan calendar might. Those steeped in that tradition see 2012 as a turning point - some say "the end of the world," translated by many to mean the end of the current period of chaos. (That's not as far off as it seems...)

Other traditions predicting dramatic changes during this time also peg 2012 as the end of the current era.

I don't know how that fits with any astrological transits or aspects and, I must empahsize, prediction isn't science.

[leanin_green]

46. Housewolf, you might like this site.

http://www.ascension2000.com

[housewolf]

11. "HAVE FAITH IN THE PROCESS. "

This is the hardest part. It is SO difficult to have faith in the process in the midst of all the turmoil, when the cells of your body just cry for a break in the chaos.

I agree with much that you have said. Americans have lost faith - but what they have lost faith in are institutions that are crumbling and no longer command that faith. Churches, corporations, the government, the media, the schools - all of our institutions are falling (and failing). Those who try to hold on to the decaying institutions - those who are trying so hard to remain faithful - are full of fear and terror. That fear and terror is then seen as out threat from the outside rather than the as it truthfully is, a mirror of what is inside.

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, thanks for the reminders, thanks for elevating the discussion.

[leanin_green]

15. So, with your thoughts in mind. . .

how is that faithlessness manifested in the leaders that have taken hold of reigns of power? Are they not a direct reflection of the callousness, insensitivity toward the suffering and pain of others that is the modern conservative in this faithless mind set? In truth, RW extremists, unconsciously have accepted the demise of this country. Their actions reflect an instinct to get all they can before it's all gone. Outwardly they believe they love this country, but their actions belie a darker truth that they wish it to be finished and something else put in its place. They have no faith in the system. They seek to make it over again to their own benefit. Democrats aren't innocent in all of this. They are in survival mode and seek to hold on to what they have. But these are the actions of those who are in the final death throes. These are the acts of the truly faithless. Placating the masses, throwing up old dead ghosts of days past to stir the emotions, feeding on the fear and hysteria of the masses in order to maintain power. It is an ugly time. But watch them, mark them and be prepared for the day of action. It is coming and it will be a sight to behold.

[Zorbuddha]

18. What about the day after?

It is an ugly time. But watch them, mark them and be prepared for the day of action. It is coming and it will be a sight to behold.

That's the kicker.

You are on track with your views IMHO. I agree with the overall philosophical framework, anyway. There isn't much discussion these days of the incomprehensible exploitation of global resources that has fueled the material wealth/prosperity of the westernized world. The planet in balance could provide all the organic needs for a happy, healthy, and well-adjusted populace. But it can't sustain the sort of runaway greed of a selfish and increasingly sociopathic populace.

We get our priorites in order or face a collective demise. Money and gates will only keep the wolves at bay for so long.

[housewolf]

27. Questions and thoughts ...

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Taken as a metaphor, extend that concept to the roles and interactions of a group and its leader(s).

I believe that what a group sees in its leader(s) is a reflection of aspects of the group itself that it, perhaps unconsciously, yearns to express.

But the question is, then, does a leader hold a vision that then ignites and inspires the passions and imagination of the group, or do the needs of the group call forth a leader to help them express those qualities?

Some say that a group gets the government/leadership it deserves. I see it a bit differently.

I agree with you that Democrats are not innocent is all of this. Much as we would like to see ourselves as victims of a powerful right that has grasped the reins of power unfairly, and as much as we decry the Iraq war and other injustices of our time, we are all a part of the consciousness of America being expressed right now and we all play a contributing role.

Today's leaders reflect that the pendulum has swung beyond the center-right, into the realm of the left's shadow. As such, it is a horribly painful time for the left. There is nothing as frightening as seeing one's shadow being acted out in front of you, in real life, and not knowing that it's your shadow. Unless and until one can recognnize and embrace the shadow, own it and transform it, the natural course is denial, rejection and faithlessness.

It is interesting that the right seeks to radically change course, while the left seeks to maintain the status quo. It is almost as though conservatism and liberalism have switched sides in this. It is confounding to me, having grown up through an era when the left were the radicals pushing for change (more liberty, freedoms, expanded rights of the individual) to see now that the right pushes for radical change in their desire to perform radical surgery on our society, cutting out what it doesn't like and reverting to a more authoritarian era.

It is as though the pendulum swung to the left, we reveled in our vision of expanded liberty through the 60's and 70's. The pendulum started swinging right again in the 80's, and now it's moved further right beyond the center-right. This is a cycle that has occurred throughout the history of America, a cycling of left to right then back to the left, and over again. It has a generational time-frame to it, each lasting 30 - 40 years. I don't know how much further the pendulum needs to swing right before it begins to swing back the other way.

I believe there are unconscious forces at work, beyond human consciousness or control, that are expressed during these eras. (What I am saying is that I don't believe the hippies were hippies by choice, but that there was a need within the human spirit for expression that came forward at that time). Perhaps this are astrological in nature, I know not. Perhaps they are other forces of the human unconscious, perhaps archetypal in nature. I don't know. I do know that as individuals, we can work our hearts out for what we think we want (i.e., political campaigns and leaders) but there are other forces involved that are bigger than we are.

It is interesting, what you say about the rw unconsciouly accepting the demise of the country. They have been quite vocal in decrying the outward cultural expressions of the leftward-swing of the pendulum, and they were as unhapppy with what was, for them, an expression of their shadow during our glory days while the pendulum was left of center, as we are now. They seek their ideal in authoritarianism, just as we seek it in individual freedom. In their righteousness, they yearn for the rapture and the apocolypse, seeking an eternity in servitude to their god.

But government as god has failed them, and will always fail them. Yet I am not convinced that they are, as yet, faithless to it. It seems to me they are still faithful to the view of government as a substitute god. They remain faithful to an idea of a past that never existed, and to a hope in its revival. When their faith is finally broken, and I believe it will be, the tipping point will have occurred.

I await a charasmatic leader, one who can communicate a vision of a positive future that inspires both/all sides and ignites the imaginations of a large majority of Americans to aa higher good.

But which comes first? The leader with the vision or the vision awakeing within the group that then calls forth the leader?

It is important to remain faithful to the process, but where are we in the process????

[leanin_green]

28. Well said, and I would add this.

Your assessment of which comes first, the leader with the vision or the vision awakening within the group that then calls for the leader is very astute. I would surmise it is a combination of both. I qualify that by saying, I believe, as you, that larger "unconscious" forces are at work at critical times such as these. To further expand this premise, let me add the Jungian concept of the collective unconscious. I believe that leader is among us today. Perhaps even amongst us here in DU. At times such as these, people are born that have an acute ability to resonate with their fellows. To "hear" as it were the unspoken yearning and collective cry that appears seemingly unheeded. The collective, unconscious content of a populace made weary and dejected by what appears to be the unsurmountable obstacles to the dream we all share within in the quiet, deep solitude of sleep and dreams. This dream isn't part of our waking lives. Concerned with mundane and endless affairs of the heart and mind. But a deep, unheard and unfelt part of all humanity. You have heard it said, "When the time is right, the teacher appears." The time is ripening and the teacher is beginning to hear the cries and anguish of his/her fellows. Yes, I said her. In truth, I believe the salvation of mankind rests with womankind and that bit of her we share within us all.

[housewolf]

36. I love this conversation!

Thank you for it.

I so agree with you about so many points.

Without using the Jungian words, "collective unconscious" is what I was referring to. I, too, think that person is alive now, and is preparing just as we are preparing. I love that you think it is a woman - it appears to me that what is crumbling is the hierarchial (patriarchal, if you will, although that term carries a lot of baggage today and I am reluctant to use it as a label) - nonetheless, the heirarchial, pyramidal structures that have formed society as we know it today. I believe there is something new coming in, although it could take tens or even hundreds of year for it to flower, and that "something" will be "rounder," more inclusive and less exclusive that the current order.

I also think there are folks today having those collective dreams and even bringing them forward into their waking life for expression, perhaps even without the dreamers awareness of what the dream is. The Peruvian elders and shamans believe that it is their purpose to "dream a new world into being." I think that there are people here doing the same.

What is your calling in this dark age? What do you see as your role in it all?

[leanin_green]

38. My calling?

All my life experience has led me to the conclusion that I am to promote womankind and much of their way of thinking. As a man I feel it is important to empower the women that come into my life. To support, nurture and fuel their dreams. To honor them and help to give them a voice. To give them a safe place to heal and decondition.

[marions ghost]

60. worthy goal

but what to do about the planetary ravages of testosterone? Seems we have to raise boys not to be so "yang" so that masculinity isn't so twisted. Otherwise women will remain subjugated, both physically and psychologically.

To me it isn't a literal woman/man thing so much as it's releasing the potential of every human to be who they really are. To balance the yin and the yang in each (to put it simplistically, but you know what I mean).

[arwalden]

20. Why Would Planets And Stars Care The Lifeforms On This Planet?

What process? What natural law? What goodness? What justice of nature? :eyes:

[natrat]

22. no doubt- this planet is an overloaded freight train out of control

America in particular has got to be one of the most thoughtless self indulgent and destructive societies ever seen. American Indians lived in harmony with the land for thousands of years and we trash it in a few hundred. What natuiral law? What goodness? A bunch of morons who foul there own nest.

[Wonk]

26. Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by

one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce


I thought DU had a special forum for this kind of thread?

Oh, that's right, it does :think:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

[arwalden]

58. Another Special Group: "Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing"

:eyes:

[leanin_green]

39. Keep reading further.

[arwalden]

59. Why? What Will I Find? Why Not Just Respond Directly...

... or reference the post you want to draw my attention to... or cut-and-paste the text you feel is relevant.

[KittyWampus]

62. Allen, Go Read Some Jung On The Collective Unconscious.

I beg you.

[arwalden]

67. You Beg Me? Oh Brother!

:eyes:

I've already seen enough, thanks. I've never been one to waste my time with all that metaphysical nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious
http://skepdic.com/collectiveun.html

Heh-heh... you beg me. Good grief.

[leanin_green]

75. And yet you persist here, why?

Arwalden, have you asked yourself why your continually posting on this subject? If you haven't put much stock in any of it, then why continue?
Astrology isn't necessarily metaphysical. If you would go the the site I mentioned on previous threads above, and look past all the extraneous material to read some of the more scientific information contained in the "Free Books" section, you can begin to see how much astrology is beginning to become more Astro-logic than what is portrayed as astrology today. Read further with an open mind.

[arwalden]

78. Well, Leanin_Green...

<< "And yet you persist here, why?" Arwalden, have you asked yourself why your continually posting on this subject? >>

LOL... I "persist here"?? Really? Good grief! :eyes: Actually, I was unaware that I am "continually posting on this subject".

What exactly were you expecting? First, you post a thread in an open forum (rather than the private group) and you open up the thread for discussion and invite others to participate.

But when I choose to express myself in "your" thread, your clever words ("yet you persist") make it very clear that I'm not welcome... that I'm an annoyance to you.

In your OP you say "I open the floor to comment and debate." -- Really? Apparently that general invitation to participate only applies to those who agree with you, and who don't challenge the believers, eh? (Some debate, huh.) :shrug:

<< If you haven't put much stock in any of it, then why continue? >>

Because it's a topic that interests me. I think it's horse hockey. Why should I not be permitted to say so? Why should I allow such outrageous suggestions go unchallenged? Would you prefer that I leave? Are you telling me to go away?

<< Astrology isn't necessarily metaphysical. If you would go the the site I mentioned on previous threads above, and look past all the extraneous material to read some of the more scientific information contained in the "Free Books" section, you can begin to see how much astrology is beginning to become more Astro-logic than what is portrayed as astrology today. Read further with an open mind. >>

"Astro-logic"? :rofl:

It's all the same hooey. Different packaging.

[leanin_green]

82. Alright arwalden, I respect that.

And my intention isn't to silence you, either. You are welcome to this discussion. I'm aware that many don't believe as I do, so be it. I just wanted to point out that although you don't believe in astrology, you put out a lot of energy trying to put it down. That's good. I haven't a problem with your resistance. I only use my own experience to make a point. This is MY experience, no one elses'. So please, feel free to continue adding your opinion to the mix. Further, I was making an observation about the national mood. It wasn't my intention to make this thread about the validity or invalidity of astrology.

[sendero]

64. They don't....

.... the stars don't "cause" anything. They are merely a reflection. The universe is like a giant machine, a huge complex clock - everything moves in unison as it was designed to, and you can see patterns of reality in one part of the machine that reflect patterns in another.

[arwalden]

68. If This Were True Then It Could Be Demonstrated...

... yet nobody does. Why?

[sendero]

69. It's hard to call anything..

... that is inherently subjective "science".

The OP spoke of a general malaise. I feel it, I think a lot of people realize that we are in a tough period of history.

The OP contends this has something to do with a transit of Pluto. I don't study any more or watch transits - so I don't know.

I could care less if anyone or everyone "believes" in astrology. I spent a year of my free time studying it, and there isn't the slightest question in my mind there is something to it. But proving it "scientifically" would be next to impossible, because it deals with subjective observations rather than absolute facts.

[arwalden]

70. Either It's Real Or It's Not.

<< "It's hard to call anything.." ... that is inherently subjective "science". >>

Yet the "believers" will insist that it's real. Hmmm. If it's real, then it can be tested and it can be demonstrated.

Sorry to hear that you wasted a year of your free time.

<< The OP spoke of a general malaise. I feel it, I think a lot of people realize that we are in a tough period of history. The OP contends this has something to do with a transit of Pluto. >>

Why? Does the OP think that people don't have access to newspapers, radio and television? There really is a MORE LOGICAL reason for the perceived "malaise" among people. They are having entirely normal emotions by reacting to national and global events. There's nothing magical going on.

<< I don't study any more or watch transits - so I don't know. >>

So pretty much on an equal footing with the folks who do study them... they don't know what they are talking about either. :-)

<< But proving it "scientifically" would be next to impossible, because it deals with subjective observations rather than absolute facts.>>

In other words, they are guessing. The likelihood that an astrological prediction will be correct is the same that one would expect from random chance. (Except for the overly-vague or ludicrously OBVIOUS predictions like "there-will-be-an-earthquake-in-California" and "an-golden-age-screen-actress-will-die" and "more-unrest-in-the-Middle-East". You know the ones I'm talking about.)

[sendero]

71. Oh thanks for that..

.... I'm sure everyone is glad that there is someone here who knows everything.

[arwalden]

72. You're Welcome.

<< I'm sure everyone is glad that there is someone here who knows everything. >>

Oh, that's a sweet thing to say... but please... stop exaggerating! :blush: I never said anything about knowing "everything". (You're embarrassing me.)

Even so... at least I'm smart enough not to *fall* for everything.

[sendero]

73. Especially...

.... knowing about something you've obviously spent zero time or effort in understanding. Bravo! An achievement for the ages!

[arwalden]

74. Sendero... You Cut Me To The Quick! I Understand It Perfectly.

I can sum it up in three words: astrology is bunk.

<< "Especially..." .... knowing about something you've obviously spent zero time or effort in understanding.>>

Really? How exactly do you know the amount of "time and effort" I've spent? What methods have you used to quantify that claim?

<<Bravo! An achievement for the ages!>>

Oh, even though your admiration is appreciated, it's really unnecessary. I'm not the first to point out that astrology is hooey. I'm not stating anything new.

[bridgit]

21. thank you for your post...

i am appreciative of your thoughts here & the way in which you are expressed of them. i am small on occasion, of that there can be no doubt; though as an astrologer, my further sense it that you are yourself appreciative of the cyclical nature of a great many things. and there is where no-less than a component of my faith resides...within the greater recuperative, holistic, cyclical nature of America herself. these current leaders 'ours', rough-shod in spite of their pretense to a civil portfolio move, otherly, within ignoble, grandiose circles taking out the innocent for whom they have little concern but for labor. a system such as is presently being sought-to-be 'solidified' will not support the weight of it's own conceit & internalized delusion. people matter. history is strewn with dark times & ages; referencing the cyclical nature of nature. my sense is that darker times are well possible. many will be tested still...

again, i am small, and, as such, can be snuffed, yet, i do have a light; here's hoping friend, you may see it from where you are :hi:

[leanin_green]

50. Thank you bridgit

Keep stoking that light. We are all small, but put all the lights together. . . Your light shines in one phrase for me, "PEOPLE MATTER."
That's it! Don't forget it. It will save us all.

[Bill McBlueState]

23. What happened the last time Pluto was in Sagittarius?

Oh, that's right, it hadn't been discovered yet.

I guess its easier to blame a distant ball of ice for our problems than to recognize what we could have done to keep Bush out of power.

[leanin_green]

30. Does that which has yet to be discovered cease to exist?

Because science has yet to discover the composition of dark matter, does it cease to exist. And if dark matter when subjected to a vacum and absolute zero, as they are beginning to discover, is found to contain more energy than can be explained, did it not exist prior to any possible discovery? And do I blame a distant ball of ice or use symbolism and the order of the cosmos to try and find some kind of understanding? But, to answer you question. The last time Pluto was in Sagittarius and Neptune and Uranus also moved into Aquarius as they did when Pluto first moved into Sagittarius at this time, directly correlated with the beginning of the revolution in human consciousness that was known as the Renaissance. This revolution reflected a drastic change from the perception of Church and God as all powerful, to the rebirth of humanism. And doesn't the RW religions of today decry humanistic thinking? Coincedence? It also directly correlated and manifested as the beginning of the discipline we now call natural science, or the observation of Nature and natural laws. This was also the time of Nostradamus. What form will it take now? Could it be the scientific discovery that everything is alive and conscious? That the earth herself is a living, breathing being? That relative to natural law we discover the natural order of the cosmos and the perfect geometric, mathmatical principles that govern all creation and life itself?

[More Than A Feeling]

34. Sadly, the perfect mathematical principles don't appear to govern

human nature, else we would not have been able to make such a mess of the system, and thereby move beyond it.

[leanin_green]

37. Well, there is Caos Therory!

[gulliver]

47. A quick Google says Pluto was discovered in 1930.

So it appears that astrology actually advances with astronomy. Who woulda thought?

A-friggin-strology. :eyes:

[arwalden]

81. I Guess That Means That All Astrological Charts Prior To 1930 Were WRONG!

So much for all those believers who brag that astrology is built on over two-thousand years of knowledge. :eyes:

[leanin_green]

84. Actually, it's much older than that.

[arwalden]

85. A Trivial And Inconsequential Point...

That takes nothing away from the point I was making. -- What does it matter if the invalid data is 2000 years old or 10,000 years old? The actual age of the compilation of "knowledge" that needed to be discarded doesn't change the fact that as of 1930, with the discovery of Pluto, it was all demonstrated to be invalid.

And still, nobody can demonstrate that these claims are true and accurate. But it can be demonstrated that the abilities of "expert" astrologers are no better than someone making educated and informed guesses about likely outcomes and probable events.

[newswolf56]

24. In what other periods of history was...

...Pluto in Sagitarius? (Years please; I don't have an ephemerus that goes back beyond the 19th Century.)

By the way I agree with your notion of "faith...in how everything expands and contracts according to the natural process of creative evolution." I believe that where we are in that natural process is at the beginning of a revolutionary shift away from patriarchy and toward not merely the restoration of the old, goddess-centered matriarchy but the next stage in human evolution, a kind of earth-centered (and therefore necessarily female-spirited) environmental/feminist/egalitarian -- an entirely new manifestation of democracy, an ethos for which we as yet have no adequate name in any language. It is the "revolution in consciousness" in which the old Counterculture was but the first wave, a process in which both the advent of Christofascism and Islamic terrorism are "equal and opposite reactions," a process that will be eventually settled either in accordance with the Gaea Hypothesis -- that is, to the ultimate benefit of Mother Earth and all her children -- or with her total destruction by the murderously suicidal devotees of Yehveh, who have built his ultimate image in thermonuclear weaponry.

But I have faith in the ultimate restoration of human sanity because true poets from Taliesin onward have prophecied it:

The tops of the beech-tree
Have sprouted of late,
Are changed and renewed
From their withered state...

(In mythology, the beech is the goddess-tree, and its sprouting in the sense foretold by Taliesin is her resurrection. And no one really knows how old Taliesin's poetry is: some say it dates from 2600 years ago and is probably even older than that.)

The true poet Gary Snyder celebrated it:

If we are lucky we may eventually arrive at a totally integrated world culture with matrilineal descent, free-form marriage, natural-credit communist economy, less industry, far less population and lots more national parks...Such families already exist. Their children are different in personality structure and outlook from anybody in the history of Western culture since the destruction of Knossos.

And the true poet Jackson Browne saw it more vividly than most:

Some of them were angry
At the way the earth was abused
By the men who learned how to forge her beauty into power
And they struggled to protect her from them
Only to be confused
By the magnitude of her fury in the final hour...

But I will let the Cheyenne ghost-dancers speak for me:

Hi-niswa' vita'ki ni

Or as Patty Smith accurately translated it:

"We shall live again."


Edit: a clarification of references in my second and third paragraphs.

[leanin_green]

31. Very nice! Read post #30 to answer historical periods.

[leanin_green]

32. Very nice! Read post #30 to answer historical periods.

You sound like a student of Jeffrey Wolf Green. Of which I had the privilege to study with.

[newswolf56]

44. Sorry I never heard of Jeffrey Wolf Green; am merely...

...a student of life, including its genuinely spiritual dimensions (which I believe by definition excludes all Yehvehistic doctrine). My bachelor's program was interdisciplinary: history, mythology, sociology, anthropology all focused on semiotic analysis, with a solid minor in general science -- an eclectic assortment of which my lifelong reading interests are merely an expansion. Nor was it accidental: my own modern reconstruction of what, based on Robert Graves, was the Druidical education model.

[leanin_green]

45. Ah yes, the Druid.

I have traced my ancestral name back to Druidic times. I am of English descent. I am a Stringfellow and at one time we were in the Bardic disciplines. I still play today and try to bring the mysteries through my music. I mention Jeffery, because he has said the same as you did prior, in almost the same language. It's nice to hear he isn't the only one.

[newswolf56]

51. I think the Muse speaks in a singular voice...

...through all of us who commit Poetry, which from the Yehvehistic perspective is a violation of the First Commandment and thus the ultimately deadly sin. I think the only differences among true poets are in how faithfully we each bear witness to the Muse -- how clearly we have seen her dance, how vividly we portray her choreography, how accurately we transcribe her song. As Graves observed, "there is one story and one story only."

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. The name Stringfellow is, as you say, English

and therefore unconnected with Druids or Bards, which are Celtic. You need a Welsh name for that. Try again.

[leanin_green]

93. And where did the English originate?

Before the Romans, Saxons and Normans, who were the people on that island nation? Before Catholicism, what was the religious observances of the people of that island nation? The name Stringfellow goes back before the Romans. It is an offshoot of Stringer, Stringham, ect. Like most names from there, it has evolved and changed according to its time and dialect.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. 'English' comes from 'Angle', who came over with the Saxons

starting in the 5th century, after the Romans had left Britain. They orginated in the northern part of the European continent (as in , that's as far back as their whereabouts can be traced). That's why we talk about 'Anglo-Saxon'. That's why English is a Germanic language, as opposed to Welsh, which is Celtic. The people who inhabited Britain before the Romans invaded were the Britons, who were Celts. They retained control of Wales when the Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded, and their language was retained there (in an allied form, it was also retained as Cornish, where they also held out for longer against the Saxons etc.; many Cornish placenames are similar to Welsh ones).

The Angles' religion before Christianity was allied to the Norse religion - Woden (Odin), etc.

Here's a clue:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=string&x=17&y=12
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English streng; akin to Old High German strang rope, Latin stringere to bind tight
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fellow&x=14&y=11
Etymology: Middle English felawe, from Old English fEolaga, from Old Norse fElagi, from fElag partnership, from fE cattle, money + lag act of laying

Saying the name dates back beyond Roman times is absurd. No English surname dates back that far.

Surnames developed from bynames, which are additional identifiers used to distinguish two people with the same given name. These bynames tend to fall into particular patterns. These usually started out as specific to a person and became inherited from father to son between the twelfth and sixteenth century. The aristocracy usually adopted inherited surnames early on and the peasants did so later. Some of the specific types are: the patronymic (referring to the father or mother), a locative or toponymic (indicating where a person is from), an epithet (which describes a person in some way) or a name derived from occupation, office or status. Most cultures use surnames developed from one or more of these types of bynames. P. H. Reaney's Origins of English Surnames covers the formations of these various types of bynames in much greater detail than is possible here.

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/namehist.html

[leanin_green]

101. My ancestry traces back to Cornwall

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. Nevertheless, a claim that 'Stringfellow' links you with the Druids

is incorrect.

[leanin_green]

106. I can accept your critique.

I just have other information is all.

[okasha]

94. Try again.

At one time, Ireland, all of Britain, what is now France, Spain, Northern Italy, Southern Germany and Austria, as well as parts of Turkey, were peopled by Celts. You can find descendents of them all over Europe, with names in their current local languages.

[muriel_volestrangler]

98. But saying the name "Stringfellow" proves it is incorrect

because it is an English surname, and so proves no connection with Celts at all. You can't prove connections with Druids using surnames of any language, because surnames came about long after the Druids had disappeared. See post #97.

There's a good chance that anyone who has some British ancestry (Welsh, English or Scottish) has ancestors who were Britons before the Romans came to the island, and, if Druids had children (I haven't the faintest idea), there'd be Druids among them. The numbers of so many generations makes it very likely. But thinking that an English surname has anything to do with it is wrong (and what's so special about an all-male inheritance, anyway?). Thinking that one has an unusual connection to Druids is also wrong. There aren't reliable records for any British families going back that far - even royalty.

[immoderate]

25. After every high, there's a low...

And after every low, there's a high -- provided you live through the low.

What's Pluto got to do with it?:shrug:

--IMM

[leanin_green]

33. Let's not get too hung-up on the Pluto stuff, okay?

I use it to show that there is a way to keep time within our own solar structure. There is also a way to keep time within the galaxy mathmatically. Everything moves according to established rates of motion that can be mathmatically calculated and recorded. This was done by the ancients, who we give little credit for knowing anything. Yet, we have the pyramids, Stonehenge, the Mayan calendar, etcetera etcetera.

[immoderate]

61. Yes and no.

"Let's not get too hung-up on the Pluto stuff, okay?"

That's my point.

Things do seem to occur in cycles. I just don't see the synchronicity or causality implied by some of the posts. The statement above supports that. Then it's right back into the "ancients." They did some very clever things. Where are they now? Someday they'll talk about us like that.

You didn't notice the other part of my post, which alludes that cycles are a natural order of things that are not necessarily in accord with the great sidereal motions by which time is commonly reckoned.

I hesitated a long time before commenting on this, but it is important to distill causality. And you brought it up, and it is GD.

--IMM

[More Than A Feeling]

29. Tell me more about this process

Why is it good, when it has resulted in this mess?

What, exactly, is the justice of nature?

on edit: I see that our compatriots have already asked these questions. I will consider your answer to them, to me as well, and chime in if I have more to say.

[leanin_green]

35. It is the Ultimate Good I speak of.

For everything there is a beginning, middle and end. This is the natural process of which I speak. We are born, we live, we die and are reborn. The examples are everywhere in creation. A seed, lest it die, cannot produce a shaft of wheat. When that shaft fulfills its life cycle, it turns to seed, which drops on the ground and the process continues again. This mess is the natural cycle of societies. Every society experiences periods of decay and readjustment. The justice in inherent within the process itself. That everything ends.

[More Than A Feeling]

41. If we were merely a part of this process

How could we make judgments about the goodness or badness of it, or even be aware of the process in the first place? To me, the ability of humanity to reason means that we are both part of this process and yet beyond it. No longer running on instinct alone, we have free will. Which makes everything much more uncertain than you suggest. This is fine, to be liberal is to adapt to change, but let us be quite clear about what is actually happening and our relationship with it.

[leanin_green]

43. Goodness and badness of it?

It is not one or the other. It just simply is the natural order of all things. I'll pose a question. If a society rises up and seeks to force its vision of how things should be on the rest of the world, is that bad or good? Doesn't it depend on your position within that society? If you are one of the leaders in such a society, it would be good for you, wouldn't it? If your one of the rest of the world that is being forced to submit to a vision you don't agree with, then for you it's bad. In the course of events, as the vision that ignited the former society begins to lose something, becomes distorted and perverted and no longer resembles the original idea, and that society begins to decay, be rejected by stronger forces of resistance and so on, until the day that society collapses. Is it bad or good. You can see the arguement is a circular one that has no resolution. Such is the nature of all things. No judgement, no good, no bad, just cyclic expansion and contraction. Societies are born, they have their day in the sun, they whither and return to the earth from whence they came. And the seed of the original idea remains in the hearts of some men until the day it is tried again in a new form on a new patch of earth.

[More Than A Feeling]

49. Would someone running on instinct be able to say the things you do?

Animals do not reason as we do, and that is my point. We are not fully part of the natural system, and therefore we may not follow the same pattern. We are perfectly capable of nuking this planet until nothing lives, for example. What would that do to your cycle? We shouldn't even be capable of such things if the cycle were the last word in human destiny. The point of all this is that nothing in society is inevitable, and we must work for what we hope to gain, rather than rely on a deterministic mechanism inherent in the material world.

[leanin_green]

52. You are trying too hard.

Relax your mind and quit straining for logic. Animals may not reason as we do, but, instinct is a complex mode of operation. Animals feel, they learn and grow. Instinct has its own form of reason. Most of humanity runs on instinctual survival. Instinct operates within a two-dimensional realm. A need is perceived and an action is calculated to possess what is needed. Humans are animals, too. Within us we contain first, second and third dimensional characteristics. Just because we're within a third dimensional construct doesn't mean the other lower, and for that matter, upper dimensions are inactive. We are fully part of the natural system. In it we move and have our being. It is this myth of separatness that has created all this caos you speak of. And do you really believe that if we nuke this planet into extinction that nothing would survive? Or as George Carlin noted, "Maybe we are only here during this small blip in time because the earth needed more plastic."

[More Than A Feeling]

56. I do applaud you for putting your beliefs out there

for examination and questioning. I am not sure I understand myself and what I believe enough to do so as well. My beliefs are in a state of flux and uncertainty, at the moment. I do understand where you are coming from, though. Reading Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy has repayed me there. Still, I am not convinced. If you wish me to explain why, and continue this discussion, I will do so when i wake up later today.

Good morning!

[leanin_green]

86. I'm not trying to convince anybody. And BTW

Trying to convert someone is another manifestation of the Sagittarian archetype. (sic)
Your beliefs being in a state of flux is precisely my point. It isn't just you. It's all of us. This is the Nature of the overall stage within the process we as a planet are in. This "loss of faith" creates a deep fear and insecurity. This is natural. Some will cling desperately to old cherished beliefs. Some will become cynical. Others still will open up and search for new meaning. I think you can see that these reactions are all based upon how we handle this fear created by the insecurity of humanity in flux. I'm just making an observation of what "I" perceive to be something that is happening world-wide. The astrology aspect of it is just what "I" use to help understand it. I'm not seeking to convert anyone to my way of thinking. It's just one little opinion caught in the many clamoring to be heard.

[marions ghost]

65. yes

hopefully we will not commit mass suicide by allowing our leaders to nuke everybody...but if it happens, we'll just be one of those planets that had to go back to square one. The plastic quote LOL--puts it in perspective.

[marions ghost]

40. I agree that we are experiencing a widespread crisis of faith--

even among those who try to believe so hard in traditional religious faiths and conservative "values." (Good point--their fear and mistrust cannot be hidden by piousness). It doesn't matter if you're talking about religion, astrology, spirituality, philosophy, science, nationalism etc. -- any sort of belief system-- we are having a hard time relating our lives to anything larger than us. It's as though we try to lasso something that makes sense out of the chaos around us, only to miss most of the time. Yes, I see that we as a culture, as a nation, are undergoing a profound dissolution that may yet lead us to radical changes. I hope so.

[BiggJawn]

48. I never had any faith.

Gasoline's $2.40 here. Guess I need to get me some black leather and studs. If I'm gonna be LIVING in "Mad Max", I may as well look the part.

We're moving towards a new Dark Ages. Science is being eschewed in favour of Magical Thinking. In the near future, we will find ourselves in the same Feudal situation Manor serfs were in. Ignorant,un-educated, working ourselves to death for the benefit of the Lord, and dieing before we're 35 because we can't afford health care.

And for every cryptic quatrain of Michel Nostradamus' you can cite that claims better days are coming, I'd bet I could find another "interpetation" of the SAME quatrain that has the exact inverse meaning.
That's the nice thing about ol' Michel, he's everything to everybody...

[leanin_green]

53. And so, you have your reward.

[BiggJawn]

54. My "Reward"?

Oh, a Koan!

[BurtWorm]

55. Americans are more faithful than they've ever been in my lifetime.

That's the problem, as far as I can tell. Why is there "contractive darkness?" I think it's because people want to believe in something larger than themselves that is "benevolent" (despite all evidence that benevolence is purely subjective and therefore ultimately irrelevant) and the universe, wonderful as it is, is indifferent to us. There is something to be said for making peace with that reality; not making peace with it, I think, is the cause of much human angst and strife

Unfortunately, many people think a viewpoint like mine is amoral at best or even immoral. But what I get from my world view is that morality is a product of human sociability. We do have to try to be moral, because it improves our lot (which is to be social) and alleviates at least some of our suffering (which stems in large part from our being social).

[marions ghost]

63. this "faith" is shallow...

--many Americans do get some degree of strength from their religious faith but the levels of depression, fear and discontent still rise. I don't think Americans are any more "faithful" than they ever have been. In fact I think it's just the opposite--for all the increase in churchgoing, there is less faith. Organized religions are to be credited for the help and solace they provide in times of need, and they provide a sense of community in a fragmented world, socially beneficial of course. Individuals also benefit from believing that there is something larger than themselves, especially if they can sustain that belief. The drawbacks of dogmatic religious faith are obvious, and we have no better examples of distortion and abuse than what is going on today. But if humans had to believe that nothing is beyond themselves, I think there would be even worse chaos. It's just too overwhelming and difficult to go that route for most, though I understand the position of those who do not "need" religion.

Everyone has something they believe in, something that keeps them going. For me it's art, music, and writing. It's also recognition of the awesome power and ultimate dominance of nature over humans. If you don't believe in God, you still have to pay homage to the astounding forces of Nature. Witness the overnight destruction of a hurricane. Or more positively the earth's ability to regenerate after the hurricane. We humans kid ourselves that we should "have dominion over the earth." We are fragile ants scurrying around on the face of a spinning rock, subject to the whims of powerful natural forces. That observation alone should be enough to prevent any human from thinking they can "have it all" or "one way is right" or "I'm the Greatest."

We humans need a consciousness upgrade.

[immoderate]

66. Hurricanes --

A demonstration of the awesome power of hot air.

--IMM

[leanin_green]

79. Actually. . .

it's a combination of hot air meeting cooler air that dance around each other creating a vortex. But I get your inference and nod to its intention.

[immoderate]

89. Well nothing is above humor.

One can assay conditions, misread patterns, infer causalities where none exist, and over-simplify those that do. This is built in to us. It is at once a blessing and a curse.

My intentions are multiple, but working towards truth is one of them. I think skepticism can be useful.

--IMM

[marions ghost]

99. Skepticism is essential

not just useful. But it takes more wisdom and self-discipline to be skeptical than the average person typically has. This is why beliefs such as "B**h is a god-fearing man" sell so well. Hard and bitter truths such as "your leader is a pathological narcissist fraud" do not sell so well in a society that wants to be anesthetized. And ours is a society in which beliefs must be promoted and sold.

Can a healthy skeptical outlook be more than a reaction to sheepish belief systems? Can it be more positive than that? Where and how does working toward truth bring about a better society? How do we know truth when we see it? I'm seriously seeking a way to open the eyes of those who may not be open. For humanity to rise to a better level, somebody has to lead. Will it be we skeptics who do that? (Just kicking this around...no argument intended). :)

[leanin_green]

77. Why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper?

The beast of the field congregates with others of like kind. Is this social or instinctual survival? A safety in numbers sort of thing. Or is it more about like attracting like? Why does it profit me to be moral? And what kind of profit are you using to measure profit? Do you think the current cabal running this country are suffering for their immorality? Or are they just living high on the hog without a care? And if the universe is indifferent to us, then why be moral? Why not be immoral and live well?

[Raksha]

80. Because I WOULDN'T be living well. I'd be miserable.

Re >>Why not be immoral and live well?<<

[leanin_green]

83. By what set of values do you make such a conclusion?

Where do such values come from? By what measurement do you use to come to such a perspective? If you use our cultural yardstick of wealth and financial gain to measure "living well" then how does it pay to be moral?

[Raksha]

96. Obviously, I am NOT using the current materialistic values

of wealth and financial gain to measure "living well." Not entirely anyway. Now I like material things just as much as anyone else, and obviously I also have certain minimal survival needs that have to be met, again just like anyone else. I don't think it "pays" to be moral at all, not in the immediate, egocentric way that most people think of something as paying or not paying.

But when you look at the big picture, it's the only attitude that makes any sense. We are all in this together, and what goes around, comes around. It seems perfectly self-evident to me that ultimately you're a lot safer if you don't go charging around the world seeking to impose your will by force and giving other people a lot of perfectly valid reasons to hate your guts. Because if enough people hate your guts for long enough, eventually they WILL do something about it. Likewise I've never been able to understand the neocons' total disregard for the environment--don't THEY have to breathe the same air we do? All the money in the world won't protect them if the Earth becomes uninhabitable--and yet they think it's a "good" thing that the attacks in London took climate change off the front burner???

So I guess what it really boils down to is having a wider and deeper concept of what constitutes "self-interest."

[BurtWorm]

100. No I don't think they're suffering for their immorality.

They seem to be livin' quite large, don't they. Nu? Some of them seem to think of themselves as being "righteous" Christians. Certainly some of those who think of themselves as righteous Christians think the Bushists are allright with God.

What do you do with that information?

[DaddyBear1]

76. Lost faith?

In the government only until 2008.

[Deja Q]

88. Faith in the system is one thing. A system hijacked and warped is anther.

By, of, and for the rich - with the working masses too fucking scared to do anything out of fear of losing their jobs.

Remember, no job = no money. No money = no life. No life = death.

[Desertrose]

90. I am late to the show....

but just wanted say thanks for this thoughtful post, leanin_green.

I agree that we strongly need to transform the "American Illusion" and that the Pluto in Sag dissolution and transformation is pretty much right on time and definitely needed.

Its really all about cycles.

Really timely post...good message...I'm sure its made a difference to some who needed to hear that there is light as long as we carry it and hold it strong within our hearts.

Peace starts within....

[leanin_green]

92. Thanks desertrose

Boy, this thread really took off! I think I even had a freeper. Or at least someone with full blown resistance to anything I had to say. You know, I think a leader is about to make him/herself known. Pluto is in its last decante and the people are yearning for a new vision.

[Desertrose]

95. yuppers...quite the thread leanin_green

lots of good stuff in here:)

I sure hope you are right about a leader...it is way past time for a leader with a vision...certainly no more of what has been passing for "leadership" in this country for so long.

Things are definitely changing.....so true how so many are yearning for a new vision.

:hi:DR

[Taverner]

103. You had me until you mentioned astrology

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to many things - Carl Jung and whatnot...but astrology never jived with me.

More power to you tho!

[leanin_green]

108. That's cool, everyone has a way.

Thanks for the comments. You know, if you look at what I said when I brought astrology into it, I think you'd see I prefaced the paragraph with, "As an astrologer I COULD say. . ." Leave it to humans to diverge from the original topic.

[Lilith Velkor]

104. Look to me like Americans have lost doubt.

As in, "Pride goeth before the fall."

[MsTryska]

105. so question?

when the heck does pluto exit Sag?


Sometime within the next decade i hope?

[leanin_green]

107. At the beginning. . .

of 2009, Pluto makes its first ingress into Capricorn then retrogrades back into the last degrees of Sagittarius toward the end of the year. It makes its permanent entrance into Capricorn in late 09 and early 2010. So be careful what you wish for.
After the breakdown of belief structures, religions, the legal system and other cherished beliefs, we will then move onto the structures and institutions(Capricorn)that were built on those former beliefs. Now this can happen one of two ways or a combination of both. With Pluto there are three ways we adapt to the change that is inevitably happening. We either resist and cataclysmic change takes place. We resist here and change there and we have periods of cataclymic change followed by periods of adjustment and cooperation. Or we accept what is changing and seek the new model. Usually, it's the second option that happens. But make no mistake. Change will happen, whether we help it or not.

[MsTryska]

109. so you're saying

In Capricorn we espouse all things orthodox?

gah.

[leanin_green]

110. Yes, and conservative.

Capricorn is archetypically ruled by Saturn. Saturn deals, in its negative manifestations, with fear, guilt, rigidity and resistance to change, authoritarianism and the infallible state, ect. Positively; maturity, social responsibility, right use of authority, creation of public institutions based on integrity and the will to protect society. Fatherly instincts of protection, support and positive social role models. Security.
You have to remember, orthodoxy manifests due to the vision revealed in the Sagittarian archetype. It is the human need to bring form and a workable structure on earth for the new vision to operate through. Consider the original Christian message and vision in the 1st century and the natural progression into the Church, for example. Capricorn stresses caution to the fiery Sagittarian vision. Saturn has a way of putting on the brakes before anyone can run away and create chaos. Can you see where I'm going with this? As a society, we Americans could be handed a new vision from some quarter that ignites our dreams and stirs us to create and give form to the new vision(Sagittarius). However, we run smack up against a resistant system that tries to suppress, harass, and put down the new vision. How long do you think that system, institutions, and social structure could stand against the will of the people? Especially, given America's history of violent change. Remember your history? When the message and vision of Christ stirred the hearts of men? It took awhile, but Rome did fall. Is America so unlike Rome?