Lumping ALL Freepers together does the good ones a disservice

[Quixote1818]

I just read through some of their threads and while most of them were frankly stunning many were very caring and concerned about Andy's death. One person brought up the fact that some on DU made fun of Reagan's death and cheered as though it was a great day. That caused me to pause. Some of us are just as guilty of acting like immature children as they are. I have said some immature things as well, many times and I am not proud of saying those things.

Andy is gone! WOW!!! I mean this is real life, powerful, tragic stuff going on here. He must have been in so much pain and wrestled with so much sadness and fear. The kind of dark emotions and pain that is unimaginable! To think of what he went through is just stifling! Several weeks back I was in Mexico and saw poverty that just stunned me and made me realize how very lucky I am and reminded me of why I am a Democrat! Day after day after day I see soldiers blown apart and Innocent Muslims mutilated. Two days ago 50 people were killed in the UK. It just makes all this bickering seem so sad to me.

When people die and people have become so cold as we are seeing on FR right now my heart just breaks! And we have done it also when Reagan died among others. I have to ask, what on earth are we becoming??? Will Rogers once said "I never met a man I didn't like". He also spoke at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. I know we have different values and beliefs than most on FR and I know we are all blown away by the crap the Bush administration has been pulling but I assure you if we look deep enough their are many wonderful things about many of those on FR. Does that mean we should forgive the evil things some of them say? Absolutely not! Just as they should not forgive many of the evil things we have said about Republicans who have died. But sooner or later someone has to hold out an olive branch to the other side or the venom become so powerful it blinds us and turns us into something we never wanted to become. We become like Israel and Palestine!

I just can't contribute to any more division and anger towards those on FR. It's reaching a level that frankly is depressing me and is breaking my heart. I think the best way to honor Andy who believe it or not was a member of FR as well (it appears because he put his cause above political division but I could be wrong) is to fight for the things he believed in and to do it in a way that puts political differences last. His cause did not take sides, it was for EVERYONE, Republicans and Democrats, he just wanted HONEST elections and results we could feel confidant in wheather Democrat or Republican! I think we should just ignore those who are acting like children on FR and celebrate the ones who are sincerely morning Andy's death. Some are feeling guilty about their actions! These are GOOD people!!!! Lets focus on the good ones and not give the mean ones ANY attention!!! This is a time for healing and building bridges with those on FR who are reaching out and putting the mean ones in their place. This is a good time to connect with them! At least with the sincere ones!

I hope Skinner will send this letter over to them because the good ones really give me hope! I want them to know that I was moved by their actions in defending Andy, morning his death and offering him kind words. They are wonderful people and I admire them! If that gets me flamed then so be it.

[helderheid]

1. just the subject line deserves a kick - off to bed and will read this

tomorrow

[liberalpragmatist]

2. I hate to say it. But the truth is we're closer to a mirror image...

...than we'd like to admit.

Naturally, I can't help but feel that FR truly is a more hateful place. You don't see people here calling for the destruction of other peoples, the destruction of an "evil cult" like Islam, and the open racism.

We also have far more tolerant and open-minded administrators like Skinner.

But the truth is that there is an awful lot of extremism and, frankly, hatefullness, that eminates from DU as well. And while DUers may not advocate the slaughter of Muslims, there have been plenty of DU'ers who say that American troops are evil or are terrorists and deserve to be killed. Whenever a right-winger dies there are cheers and sick celebration. There's more hate than we acknowledge. None of it is indicative of the mainstream, and perhaps not even a majority of DU. But there are extremists and more level-headed people on both sides. That's true of DU and true of FR. I can't stand visiting on FR, but whenever I've gone there I've seen some rational, level-headed posts in addition to the general bile.


There are some rational conservatives on DU. I've seen some pretty rational criticisms of Bush, for instance (a few) - and of course I've seen some ridiculous criticisms of BushCo from the extreme right. Things like he's "too tolerant of Muslims," etc. But don't forget a lot of Freepers are in it more for the politics - Republicans who want to talk about campaigns and elections, like a lot of DU'ers.

* Note - last paragraph added on edit as a probably redundant addition, but one that I just felt like writing.

[Jon_da_brockman]

3. I agree with you on all points

Except that when there ARE rational points over at FR, they tend to be attacked, and more often than not, deleted. Its actually humorous, in a sad sort of way.

[Quixote1818]

4. Well put! nt

[Jack Rabbit]

6. For those who doubt it

You can check out and this thread at FR and this one commenting on it at DU.

You can't tell the left from the right with a program, can you? Both threads feature charitable, high minded posts and both thread feature a number of really despicable posts that embarrass either site.

[NMMNG]

8. Not all freepers are crude SOBs

That is true. Not all of them are cheering Andy's death, and a good number of them have posted kind messages regarding it. Nor is every one of them vehementely anti-Muslim, hateful to gays, racist, etc.


And not every DUer open minded, kindhearted and loving. Some of them are quite mean spirited and intolerant.

However I have myself seen the way that people over there who post opinions that go against the grain often get trounced upon by other members, or have their posts deleted. Dare to say that God is Love and a slew of freepers will remind you that God is a vengeful bastard and you don't know shit .

So yes, freepers aren't all bad, but there's more than a few bad apples in that bunch.

[Goldmund]

11. This simply is not true

there have been plenty of DU'ers who say that American troops are evil or are terrorists and deserve to be killed

There have been posts like that (though very few) which promptly get deleted and if it's clear that the poster's intent was to say that, the poster gets banned. That's happened every time I've ever seen a loon or a Freeper troll post something to that effect.

[liberalpragmatist]

14. You're right "plenty" was a poor-choice of words

There have been a few incidents. And usually if it is really incindiary (sp?) it is banned. I DO believe that DU is a much better place than FR, even not accounting for its politics. My point is just that there are extremists and hateful people on both ends of the spectrum.

The left is not immune to the same indecent impulses than convulse the extreme right. I've seen examples on DU of leftist authoritarianism and people who deal in absolutes. Let's not forget that tens of millions of people were slaughtered by an international, authoritarian-left movement. When people start getting absolutely zealous about their ideals that can lead them to hatefulness towards the other side. That can happen on both the left and the right - really any political position. Even worse if put in power, then power corrupts and they truly do horrible things.

That's all I'm saying. Now I'm sorry if I implied that such intolerance on DU is more widespread than I thought, and you're certainly right that our moderators and admin is FAR more tolerant - there's really IS authoritarian and bans people for the most minor transgressions. Skinner and the DU admins are great and very responsible. They're a big part of why DU remains a success, IMO.

[Goldmund]

15. No, I actually agree with you

I only offered a small correction. :)

[Ladyhawk]

5. You're right, but I'm a little confused.

I didn't exactly mourn Reagan's death. In fact, I got tired of the coverage and, remembering that Reagan's actions gutted care for the mentally ill, I felt angry that he was being venerated as a saint. Reagan's presidency affected me most adversely. He did a lot of other evil things that didn't directly affect me, but these crimes should not have been forgotten! He was responsible for a lot of killing in Latin America. He illegally sold weapons to Iran and Iraq when the two were at war. He was responsible for supporting Saddam. I don't think he was a good person or a good president.

But actually celebrating someone else's death is wrong. I'm going to have to do some thinking about this.

Would I celebrate the deaths of Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot? Very tempting, but Ronald Reagan wasn't in the same league as these folks...or was he? Does the fact that he was responsible for fewer deaths absolve him?

I still don't feel comfortable with the idea of celebrating anyone's death...not even someone in the same league as Stalin or Pol Pot. I also don't feel that the fact of someone's death should automatically absolve them of the evil they committed during their lifetimes. I find the practice of saying "oh, he was such a good man" at an evil man's funeral to be intellectually dishonest. I don't understand the taboo against speaking ill of the dead.

My mind isn't working very well tonight. Enlighten me. :)

[Quixote1818]

7. I understand your point

I was thinking the same thing but it would have been too hard to articulate that in such a short letter. I think people should be looked upon in a fair way upon their deaths. I understand many Democrats have legitimate problems with some of Reagan's policies including myself. This kind of criticism is in my opinion fine but those who laughed and celebrated Reagan's death (and their were some)I believe went too far. Way too far for my taste.

[Ladyhawk]

24. Agreed. I might have gone a little too over-the-top in my thinking

at the time, but I didn't exactly celebrate. Anything I said or did was to counteract the confering of sainthood. That bothered me.

If I was offensive, I apologize.

[Quixote1818]

25. For those who died of AIDS, conferring sainthood with Reagan

was probably very offensive. From what I understand his AIDS policies were almost criminal. Reagan made many mistakes but my gut feeling was that he was probably a decent person for the most part. I think he was 100 times better than Bush. The best thing about Reagan was the son he produced in Ron!

[Montauk6]

32. Also, don't forget the whole Reagan Thing was a distraction too

It's like a flavor-of-the-month deal. Remember that there was this Reagan Fever that took place, pretty much starting with that infamous miniseries that got effectively censored. Then the move to put him on the dime and Mt. Rushmore and wherever. Just like they later used Schiavo, these folks MILKED this thing for what its worth. Look, Reagan might as well have been dead for the past ten years, since the point that Nancy decided to cut off any access to him. Having had a close relative who suffered Alzheimer's, I'm simply glad that Reagan was finally out of his misery. The righties exploited this thing lock, stock, and barrel. See how they moved on afterwards, esp. as it became clear that Nancy and Ron Jr. were definitely not playing along?

[GiovanniC]

78. I Think We Can At Least Agree That There are Demonstrable Differences

Between Reagan and Andy.

Reagan and his policies assailed poor people, gays, minorities, those with AIDS, et cetera. He destroyed a lot of lives and is LARGELY responsible for a lot of the problems in the Middle East.

For example, Andy never turned his back on those with AIDS with the attitude that the disease was just God "punishing" gays and blacks. Reagan did.

Andy did not sell chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Reagan did.

Andy did not provide weapons, money, and CIA training for Osama bin Laden. Reagan did.

I think that the attempts to equate the two are disingenuous. Andy endeavored to make this country and even this world a better place. Reagan's legacy includes death, hatred, and a stunning lack of compassion. The differences between Andy and Reagan are as sharp as night and day and I don't think it's entirely out of line to expect reactions to their deaths to be, as well.

[BiggJawn]

9. Pretty unfair comparing Andy to Ronaldus Rex.

Reagan DESERVED all the "Ding-Dong, the Fuckwad's DEAD" that he got, IMO. the man was EVIL, he was the fromnt for everything that we're suffering from now, and I'm sorry, but if it's "immature" to be happy that he went to his dirt-nap, well, change my pampers and hand me my pacie...

Andy, IMO, fought against everything Ronaldus Rex stood for. In fact, it's almost downright insulting to mention the 2 of them in the same post....

[Quixote1818]

13. ?

This post was not about Andy or Ronald Reagan, it was about being civil to one another and ending the endless hate going on between both sides. I could have used any Republican or any Democrat to make the point I was making. I have my problems with Reagan and don't have any problems with Andy based on my knowledge of Andy but I will put myself with Tip O'Neil in the way I view Reagan. You are free to have a different opinion.

[BiggJawn]

16. Thank you I will.

I don't "have any problems" with Andy, either.

Death does not diminish the bad a man does in his lifetime. If that was so, then we'd have more warm fuzzies over Stalin and Mussolini...

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

42. It is QUITE valid. Too bad if you can't handle the truth.

Raygun was scum when he was alive, why should we mourn Hitler when he is dead? Same thing with raygun. He should have been wearing an orange jumpsuit, not living in retirement. The world is worse for his being born. And bunkerboy is worse. His callowness and lack of concern for anybody but the rich cause thousands of DEATHS!

[Bluerthanblue]

10. you said

this so well, so clearly and so completely-
i agree.

thank you for your lucid, rational words-

[AuntPatsy]

12. I have no intention of flaming you, I am not saying that all

are bad people, as I have stated, I am married to that mindset, I stay married to him because I know in my heart he has one, he would give the shirt of his back for another even if he was left unclothed unlike alot of Republicans..

But you have to understand, he easily follows the rhetoric of saying hateful things about others without actually knowing them and yet would never dare say such to that persons face, he does vote Republican regardless if they are trully worthy of earning such an honor, but he would never waste his time on such a site so that I can guarantee you so he is not a threat to others, he states his personal beliefs pretty much to me and would not openly demand or advocate publicaly for others to think like he does or obviously we would not still be married...

In that he is not a threat to others, do you see the difference? He wouldn't openly hurt another even if he privately at home speaks his displeasure within the confines of his home, that is the difference from those that go on that site which holds many demonstrations in public places that call for intolerance against those they disagree with, it is what that place has been made for, trully caring people would take no such part in those events.

What do we advocate here? Yes there are people that wish some on the right to litterly have a horrid death, I don't agree with that, nor do alot of people on this site, But I do understand where this rage is coming from, they are reveling in revenge for the wrongs done to others for so many years now and just continues to evolve, its not about themselves, there is a big difference even if the line of comparing them to be equal in thier hatered looks similar..

My God, our own president and vice president openly keep this division alive, I have never seen or heard anything like it in all my years by those in the highest offices of our land, how dare they deny ALL Americans they same rights, how dare they continue to label millions of Americans as abstructionists and unpatriotic outloud for petes sake on national tv and at the same time claim to be uniters?

And how dare some people see those they elected as rightgeous individuals when it is apparent they are anything but..

[Quixote1818]

19. I understand and agree with you. I have huge problems with this

administration. I think their are many Republicans who I simply can't forgive unless they were to come clean and changed their ways. I think Karl Rove is simply mean and would do ANYTHING to get his way no matter who gets hurt and I am the last person to think these kinds of things. Bush is probably in the same boat with Karl. The Bush administration has shaken my faith in the Republican Party and I think those who still follow him are either not paying attention or lying to themselves or they are just not that smart.

Those who do have good hearts and have been taken by Bush I can forgive and can even love and admire when they reach out and show sincere kindness toward someone like Andy. It's a fine line but it's possible to walk it and keep balance.

[cynatnite]

17. there are some sick people at freeperville

and there are some I do enjoy making fun of. There are also some who actually make sense and do have some compassion. At times it's damn hard to find them.

There are times I question a few DUer's who say anyone who voted for bush are traiters, are the enemy, bash the military, etc. And there are DUer's who express common sense, are knowledgeable and have loads of compassion.

In any large group, you will find a mix of good and bad. That's just the way it is.

When Reagan died, I was very saddened and felt a loss. I was in the Army during his last term. Many of us loved Reagan and were very devoted to him. Even with the bad he did during his adminisration, I still couldn't break from that feeling and I cried watching his service.

Basically, most of us are human.

[Southsideirish]

18. Got to disagree on this freeper love fest. They are the enemy and if you

don't know that well, that's why we lose elections. There may be some good republicans but there are no good freepers no matter how remorseful they are now about Andy.

[ToeBot]

20. I'm not sure if either of "the good ones" will mind overmuch.

Look where they hang out.

[philosophie_en_rose]

21. Freepers are the enemy.

Perhaps not all conservatives deserve to be called freepers, but anyone that is a mindless JimRob drone has some serious faults.

[snot]

22. Thank you; I totally agree.

It is, for lack of a better word, inhumane to paint with too broad a brush.

And even apart from that, over-generalizing is self-defeating. In every faction, some are more aware, more thoughtful, and some less. There is always the possibility of encouraging those who are better and avoiding those who aren't.

If we neglect our responsibility to try to make those distinctions and respond to each appropriately, we risk reducing the potential benefit both to those who are open to doing better and to ourselves.

[raysr]

23. There are no

good "freepers"!

[alarimer]

62. I agree with you

They wouldn't be called "freepers" or hanging out at that site if they were anything but hateful, unthinking assholes. I am tired of being "nice". It has led to nothing good- nothing but losing years of elections. THEY are the hateful- have you seen the kind of crap they spew? They get it from their leaders. They are scum.

Now there is a difference between many "normal" republicans and freepers. But people who hang out at that site do not have two brain cells to rub together. If, as some have said, there are decent "freepers", they should repudiate those who say the despicable things, but they do not. Just by staying there, they tacitly support what the others are saying. Just like no Republican has repudiated Brit Hume or John Gibson after what they said.

[quaoar]

26. There have been many times

when I have read a post on a DU thread and just cringed at the recklessness and immaturity.

We can hardly claim the high road when we are wallowing in the same muck as FR.

Charity towards one's enemies is a sign of class.

[Neshanic]

27. If they were good and humane they would not be freepers.

It's that simple.

[shelley806]

28. I agree with you about the way to honor Andy.......the link to his FR

posts will prove your statement about his concern for honest elections for all.

"I think the best way to honor Andy who believe it or not was a member of FR as well (it appears because he put his cause above political division but I could be wrong) is to fight for the things he believed in and to do it in a way that puts political differences last. His cause did not take sides, it was for EVERYONE, Republicans and Democrats, he just wanted HONEST elections and results we could feel confidant in wheather Democrat or Republican!"


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/user-posts?name=Andy_Stephenson

[Quixote1818]

35. Thanks! I wanted to post that link but was too lazy to go and find it

nt

[Montauk6]

29. Malloy made a great point about all this

The left has been spat upon, ridiculed, accused of all sorts of atrocities (how many times have we heard Hitler being tagged as a liberal by virtue of his National SOCIALIST party, vegetarianism, and love of animals?) on a day-to-day basis. Civil rights leadership continues to be pegged as poverty pimps and freeloaders. Institutions of higher learning are all tainted with suspicion due to the hyperbolic hoax known as "political correctness." Hollywood, ever since the days of red-baiting when conscientious, decent American artists were railroaded into ruin because they DARED try to make a difference for the little guy, has walked a thin line trying to appease "small town America."

Meanwhile, during the process of being conciliatory, taking the high road, etc., the right-wing has taken over media, government, arts, and more just as the Soviets overran Russia. And we're supposed to CUT THESE GUYS A BREAK????

And when we say "good Freepers," aren't we just talking regular conservatives?

Rush Limbaugh, Weiner Savage, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, Brent Bozell, Grover Norquist, Armstrong Williams, Matt Drudge, Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay, Donald Wildmon, Matt Robertson, * are people I consider freepers.

William F. Buckley, Billy Graham, Russell Kirk, John Danforth, Milton Friedman, Virginia Postrel, Dr. Ron Paul, Colin Powell, and yes Ronald Reagan I would NOT consider freepers (though freepers look up to all of these people to some extent).

If the point is we shouldn't label all conservatives as freepers, I'd agree with you. Not all people who identify themselves as being on the right deserve to be lumped in like that.

[Beam Me Up]

30. Is it possible to heal the divisions that threaten to tear this nation

apart? That's what I want to know.

This Left vs. Right thing is mostly a distraction. Either we are a nation of laws or we are not. And right now it looks to me like many laws have been broken by people who were intrusted with the power to make decisions that would affect the lives of everyone of us and our progeny far into the future. Will the law be applied? Will they be held acountable? And if it not, what does this say to us about the integrity of our society?

The law will be applied when there are sufficient voices calling out for Justice--and we'll never get those voices if we allow ourselves to remain distracted by issues that, though important in their place, pale in comparison to these more fundamental questions. The Constitution of the United States obliges us to demand just governance.

[Quixote1818]

37. You make a strong point. Thank You! nt

[shelley806]

31. Here is a post that perfectly proves your point......

Posted by Andy_Stephenson to Diddle E. Squat
On News/Activism 03/13/2004 10:30:00 AM PST · 41 of 48

"I don't give a rats ass if Democrats or Republicans are responsible. What I do care about is honest elections. Your argument is a straw man. The citizens of Ft Worth are generally Republican...I know it and so do you! The point I am making is voting fraud can now be done on a large scale by one person. As for your argument that Dem's are the only ones doing the hacking...it isn't about that either.

Suppose a terrorist, that had had no background check, got a job in a county elections office. With a few strokes of the mouse and keypad we have rigged election, and his choice of candidate. Without a paper ballot as a record...you would never know. Again this is not about Democrat or Republican...it is about your vote my vote and every other American's vote.

On the Sequoia system...I have seen it hacked in literally seconds. When the election is closed the hack goes away. It is a fact...it is a danger to Republicans and Democrats.

Paper Ballots...Not Vapor Ballots."

[Quixote1818]

39. Thanks again for this. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

33. I'll stand with you

blind hatred begets nothing else. I live and work amongst republicans and I have loved some of them since I was born. Some of them are the best of people who simply do not understand the consequences of their ballots.

I will stand with you and continue to try to engage the good but misguided with meaningful dialog and persuade with reason. I will not regurgitate unreasoned and indiscriminate hate.

[EFerrari]

34. Calling what happened to Andy, and to me and to others

the acts of "immature children" is such a minimization it takes my breathe away.

My home address is still posted at one of those sites. Two other DUers who helped Andy were harassed at home and at work. We have been slandered for weeks -- for the weeks we were trying hard to focus on Andy and on his needs and care. And you know a little of what it cost Andy.

Does that sound like the acts of "immature children" to you?

I won't go into the whole litany here, because I really do hate to upset people to no purpose. But I assure you, immaturity only had anything to do with this very peripherally and to call it that will not help any of us plan for the next time. Because there will be a next time until this kind of campaign is shut down effectively by a united community.

There is no simple way to gage how much this cost Andy.

There is no simple way to gage how much this cost those of us most closely involved. Is still costing, in some cases.

We'd do well to keep that in mind, even as we appreciate the minor offenders who are rethinking their behavior.

[Quixote1818]

43. Those that slandered Andy are scum, no question about it!

You are right to point that out to me. I apologize for watering down the slime some of them were doing as it was as cold and evil as anything I have ever seen. I don't know of anyone from DU who has sunk that low but I could be wrong.


I still stand by my words about those on FR who stuck up for Andy and had kinds words for him. I choose to focus on them for now or I will lose all hope for society.

[EFerrari]

44. Oh, don't do that!

:)

[tavalon]

47. I found out today that I was mentioned over there

because I wanted to help make sure Andy and Termite had healthy, healing food. I asked other people to chip in with support. They happily did.

Trust me, this was not the way it was spun at FR.

OTOH, some of them have been kind in the aftermath.

[MissWaverly]

55. A big thank you from Baltimore

You have expressed my feelings much better than I can.

Miss Waverly

[goodboy]

58. kick Beth...(nt)

[TankLV]

38. There are good Freepers?!?!?!

You must be joking!

[enki23]

40. oh, bullshit

anyone who would willingly associate themselves enough with those fucking nutjobs that they would be offended by someone "lumping" them all together in the asshole category, is an asshole.

self-identifying as a "freeper" is enough. end of story. can we stop being idiots now?

[Quixote1818]

45. Did you just read the title? nt

[enki23]

46. no. nt.

.

[goodboy]

59. that's right. bullshit.

[Zorra]

41. Could you please post an example?

Pardon my skepticism.

Thanks!

[theoldgeezer]

48. They talk about us, too

Not all that flattering...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1439323/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1439586/posts

Both of these are quite critical of DU people, and just reference and provide links to posts here.

Are "we" and "them" in a war of some kind?

[I Have A Dream]

70. I haven't been here long, but there certainly is a war...

going on between FR and DU. They come here, pose as a person who is not a right wing person, and then cause trouble by trolling. We probably do the same thing there. We both think that we're right and that it's OK to do it to the other side. (Of course, we're really the ones who are right! :) )

They see us as evil incarnate and many of us think the same of them. They've caused many problems for individual DU posters -- sometimes even physically threatening them. Andy Stephenson was definitely targeted by them to the point that it might have contributed towards his death. I strongly suspect that this has not happened and never will happen at DU towards them.

I also think that they've attacked the DU board by trying to cause it to have problems/go down, etc.

Of course, if you asked them, they'd word it differently from their frame of reference.

I may be wrong, but this is what I've been able to ascertain in the 7 weeks or so that I've been posting.

By the way, welcome to DU! :)

[OneBlueSky]

49. in a similar vein, I've advocated changing "Conservative Idiots" . . .

to something a little more accurate . . . BushCo and their various idiots are NOT conservatives, and calling them conservative idiots alienates all TRUE conservatives who could, on may issues, be our allies -- if only we'd stop insulting them . . .

true conservatives support things like the Constitution, civil liberties, balanced budgets, environmental conservation, and keeping government out of people's personal business . . . in talking about BushCo, call 'em Regressive Idiots, Right Wing Idiots, Corporate Whore Idiots, or whatever suits you . . . but calling them Conservative Idiots is a disservice to true conservatives AND to ourselves, imo . . .

for those unfamiliar, I'm referring to the weekly DU column "Top Ten Conservative Idiots" . . .

[PittLib]

50. Thanks Quixote1818 ...

We can be strong and resolute without resorting to pettiness. It does not make us weak, it makes us stronger. I have little tolerance for the ignorant, bigoted and narrow minded ... but I try to keep myself in check and hypocrisy at bay. It is ironic that people lambast others while exhibiting the same attitudes and behaviors they claim to abhor. Peace to Andy.

[mogster]

51. You are so WRONG

> Lumping ALL Freepers together does the good ones a disservice

Not lumping all the freepers together means acceptance of their hate and torture acceptance. Their fucking up of this community (and other lib communities). Their moronic acceptance of everything Bush does.

It is the knife of fascism, friend.
You are living on one side of it. If you accept the other side, you'll cut yourself.
You are living in Germany 1934. You're trying to 'connect' with the good ones in the Nationalist Nazi party.
The 'good ones' who was totally invisible UNTIL they saw that Andy was dead, gone, not here anymore.

Fine.

> This is a good time to connect with them! At least with the sincere ones!

Yes. That is true.
In the case they should want it, they would know where to go and what to say. How much does it cost to post a 'sympathetic' post to the internet, huh? Like the freeptards you're referring to has done?

I say: about 5 minutes.

'Sincere ones' my foot!

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

52. Saying cruel things and

interfering with a man receiving an operation are two totally different things.

[Cobalt Violet]

53. FUCK REAGAN! I hope he is STILL suffering.

He hurt me and many others. Andy NEVER hurt ANYONE!

And Fuck Freeepers too.

[MissWaverly]

54. I never laughed at or made fun of Reagan

He was a former U.S. president, yet I have received hate calls over helping Andy, and I have been villified on various RW sites & had bad experiences here in Baltimore from helping Andy. I am strictly a middle of the road Democrat, I have never done anything to
deserve being persecuted on their websites or targeted by these fanatics. I never heard Andy make 1 negative comment regarding Reagan so I am tired of rationales for this malicious treatment. Skinner would have never permitted a hate campaign here to persecute an individual.
I believe that this malicious behavior should not be permitted on any website. What they did was unexusable and Andy did not "deserve" it and those trying to help did not "deserve" it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Yes, remember the "good" Nazis and don't say bad things about Hitler.

"we have different values and beliefs than most on FR... I assure you if we look deep enough their are many wonderful things about many of those on FR."

Ahhh, yes. Some of them love their puppies and kittens. How sweet. So did some of the guys in the Einzatsgruppen and Hitler was fond of his dog.

Freepers are fascists. Love them if it makes you feel good, but I suggest you try reading some of the threads over there before giving them a kiss.

[ChiDem]

57. Personally, I am offended...

at YOUR post.

How dare you compare Andy to Reagan

Really.

On edit, I am glad reagan died a horrible death...look at his actions while President, he was a evil man. October surprise, Arming terrorists, supporting chemical weapons use, violating the constitution(Boland)..ect...

Andy was a good man.

[dxstone]

75. Ronald Reagan was a Vegan...

...til the day he met (and et) Carl Sagan!



And now ALL our brave leaders are Cannibal Kings!
YAY!

d
ps: Personally, with all his memory lapses about Iran-Contra (or anything else he just didn't feel like discussing), I was really surprised when they announced that Reagan had contracted Alzheiemer's... the question that leapt immediately to mind was, "HOW CAN YOU FRIGGIN" TELL?"

[Maestro]

60. Well I have repulican friends but they are not freepers.

They are misguided, non-political people misinformed by the MSM primarily. The screwballs that go to FR are screwed in the head. Can't stand them and if they give some platitudes every now and then that doesn't change the horrible people they are. Good riddance to them!

[SmokingJacket]

61. I certainly don't "hate all Freepers"

I despise their ideology. But they're human beings. I suspect my mother posts there (!!!). I certainly don't advocate hatred in any form. But...

Some of us on DU think that the difference between the right and the left wing is "just politics," that it's a surface difference that we can overcome if we just spent enough time with each other and exchanged a few laughs and beers. That may have been the case in the past.

But it's becoming clear to me that the differences between people who choose to be liberals and people who choose to be conservatives are growing deeper and deeper. People who choose the right wing path are choosing a philosophy DEVOID of COMPASSION. I don't want to believe this -- I'd like to believe that we're all equally compassionate and loving people, but I see no evidence of this. What happened with Andy merely underscored this difference (and yeah, I know, not all freepers participated in the scam stuff. But honestly, you have to be so evil as to be practically inhuman to do what they did -- those people were the extreme).

There are cruel, selfish Democrats and (a few) loving, decent Republicans. But for the most part, people who choose a conservative ideology are people who put ME first, put money before the environment, eschew charity, don't believe in altruism, dislike gays, etc. That's WHY they become conservatives.

I don't accept that we're the same.

[seabeyond]

63. we are a better people than this

hate begets hate. i was thinking how this board has become so hate filled. much more so than when i first became a member a while ago. i also see the nature of things and how that developed. without trying to shift the blame, i feel that thru the angry ugly radio and tv mouths like limbaugh and hannity and the last four years of repug representatives creating dems as ugly as they can get. saying whatever they want and getting away with it has so fed into the democratic environment that we too are exhibiting the same behavior.

some say, we have to become the repug to beat them,

the only way to win is not become. the only way to win, for this nation and our children, is to refuse the hate. and with refusing the hate, showing an example to right to refuse the hate also.

i am not a horrid person. i chat with that freeper in the grocery store, at the schools. they are not horrid people, i chat with them at the grocery stores, at the schools. lol

the reagan time was an ugly time. i never enjoy watching a gang fight. beating to a pulp.

i also saw how the repugs and the media fed the outrage also. that has to be part of it. the glorified and lied about reagan to such a point, i had to turn off tv. making reagan a hero he wasnt even close ot being. but that wasnt reagans fault. that was the responsibility of media and repug

[EFerrari]

64. I can't agree that this board is hate filled.

This board is beginning to understand what happened to Andy as a political attack and an attack on our community. It is in mourning, and the process we call "mourning" has many aspects. Outrage and anger are only two of them.

[dandrhesse]

65. Here is the deal - the mood of the country, the corruption going on in the

administration - this is political civil war. At this point you are either with the GOP or you are not. The GOP has not distanced itself from the acts being committed by this administration and neither have any Senators or Congressional Reps in a huge way. If there are Republicans who do not agree with the administration and who have a conscience then they need to speak out publicly against all that their party stands for at this point. Until I see people actively disavowing the acts of the current administration I have a difficult time saying that they aren't all bad. If they are doing nothing to oppose the administration then they are helping them by keeping silent or conforming and actively contributing to our demise as a nation. I rarely think in such radical terms. But there have been lines drawn and they have been crossed in many ways and there is no going back. We have reached a defining moment so unless the GOP decides to officially change course the only thing for those in the Republican Party who dissent is to jump ship. The only thing that will change this country around is the money to leave the GOP along with legions of honorable Americans whose party affiliation has become a stain on their personal reputation

[Generic Other]

66. Oh yeah and there were good NAZIS too

I suppose John Gotti's secretary was a nice old lady too.

[baby_mouse]

67. If the good ones really were "good"

A question: Why are they there? I can only just figure it out and it's really silly if I'm right...

Caught up in flag-waving patriotism they have nowhere else to go. Again and again thy are caught up in trying to rein in their raving friends, does it work?

They're probably on the wrong discussion board.

[Walt Starr]

68. "Good Freeper" is an oxymoron

There is no such thing. All Freepers are evil.

[goodboy]

69. that's "oxymorAn" walt. but you're 100% right. (nt)

[janx]

71. It's not a matter of good or bad. Most people are generally good.

It's a matter of ignorance.

[leesa]

72. Was Andy a mass murderer like Reagan was? Was Andy an Iran-Contra

criminal who lied to get out of it?

[dxstone]

73. Someday, we will all come together and hug and cry and hug some more...

And we will ALL buy one another a Coke, and sing in perfect harmony, and laugh about how foolish we all were, locked in that silly death-struggle for so long...

But even then, I'll bet Rummy STILL gives a mean "wet willy"!




Someday

One day, some day, we'll all awake
And somehow know just what it takes
To make the whole world right once more
And we'll all run right out the door
To shout the news out loud and clear
For everyone everywhere to hear...

And we'll all shout in perfect sync
Billions of souls, a single link
A chorusing of reason clear
That fills the whole world's atmosphere
A vision shared, pristine and pure
A knowledge NEW to man, and sure...

And on that day the doves will soar
There'll be no suffering anymore
And everyone will sing and shout
And on that day, or thereabout:

There'll be an end to war and spite
And everything will be alright
There'll be an end to lies and greed
And finally we'll all be freed
There'll be an end to hate and fear
There'll be an end to death...
But until that day
I wouldn't hold my breath


For anyone interested, I have a bunch more poems at my website at
http://www.presidentevilonline.com/poems.html

[mopaul]

74. I pee in reagan's general direction, a second time

psssssss

[WI Independent]

76. Lumping ALL of any group together is small-minded. n/t

[Caretha]

77. There comes a time

When people have to make a choice. If the group you associate with is more than just a bit immoral, wrong thinking and do and say despicable things, and you still care to associate with them, then you deserve to be tarred with the same feather.

It's as simple as this. You have to take a stand and speak up for what's right, not just when its convenient for you. Where were the "good ones" when a very sick man and others were being libeled. Did they say....oh whoa! Wait a minute there? That's not very Christian of me or you. Nope. No conscience, no examining their beliefs and no questioning their own petty behavior.

I'll even go further. If we are to "come together" so to speak, then many more, no not just many, but a majority of them have got to stand up and say, "This is wrong and I'm not going to go along anymore. In fact I'm going to start demanding that my peers, leaders, etc. do the same thing and act in a moral and just way". When that happens, then we can all get along. Not before.

Everyday we are faced with all sorts of moral and immoral choices. If you choose to go along with people who make the immoral ones, then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

As my dear old grandmother used to say...."If you lay down with dogs, you're going to get up with fleas".

And yes, I like all these old "truisms" because just that....they are true.

[jmowreader]

79. They work hard to rid themselves of the "good ones"

Remember the freeper who posted the apology for screwing Andy over? Go over there and search for that freeper now. Robinson's software has a function that lets them delete all posts ever made by any one person; it's the digital version of Orwell's memory hole. I guarantee that freeper isn't even a memory anymore.

As a DUer who took great pleasure in St. Ronnie's demise, let me ask you a question: when Bush I, Bush II, Jeb, Katherine Harris, Fred Phelps, Blackwell, DeLay, Catkiller, Jesse Helms, Scalia or Clarence Thomas get sent to hell, will we write pleasant homilies to them? You can if you want, but most of us are not planning to. I'm planning to go to Topeka for Phelps' service. (I'll be the one holding the sign that says "Fred Phelps passed into Hell on (enter date of death)--Matthew 7:15-23")

[TankLV]

80. What good ones?!?!?!

There are no "good" freepers!

Period.

Why do we have to lump in all the good Nazis with the bad Nazis!

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Sure there are a FEW good hearted freepers

but the majority are ignorant, hateful fools. And I am not just thinking of the ones who are members of that site. I have met freepers on other internet discussion boards who are hateful and vindictive. I posted a thread a few weeks ago about one who has been stalking me. I have spent several weeks now ridding my computer of the crap he is using to follow me around the internet. How despicable is a person who stalks someone on the internet because they disagree with their political views?? I mean, think about that for a minute.

I also have the misfortune to be related to a freeper and I am acquainted with a few as well. Their hatred for all things liberal is just unreal. It seems that my bro in law's mission in life is to call me names and spew Rushisms at every opportunity. The behavior of these freepers I have the bad luck of interfacing with is just grotesque. And I won't even get started on the fundie freepers. :puke:

Now think about the hatred that FR site (and several others) spewed at Andy, who was actually a member of their site. Sure a few of them rose up to act like humans with feelings but the majority clung to the idea that Andy was scamming us here at DU. Even with his death they continue to slander him. If the administrator of that site had one one hundredth of the dignity that Skinner has, he would delete those posts and ban those threads. But they continue to have a hatefest directed at Andy. That, IMO, is beyond despicable.

So sorry, I see no reason to see any of them as good people.

[Bouncy Ball]

82. Well why don't we just link hands with them and sing "Kum-ba-yah?"

You go first, ok? LOL!

Hey you know what I do? I IGNORE THEM. I don't click on their nasty website, or any other right wing site, for that matter.

And you know what? I don't see racism, nationalism and homophobia here (homo-hatred, that is) and they've got TONS of it there.

That ALONE tells me all I need to know about the differences between the two places and the two people.

I think the best thing every DUer and every progressive person can do is totally ignore the creeps. Don't go to their site, don't quote them here, don't post on their sites, nothing. Just leave them sitting there all by themselves. They'd hate it.