What Do You Guys And Gals Think Of The Gephardt -Dean Brawl...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

It reminds me of the beauty of the Godfather trilogy...

"It's business, nothing personal."

When in reality it's entirely personal....

Those two guys hate each other....

[VolcanoJen]

1. Best part was when the camera focused on Dean as Gephardt...

... compared him to Gingrich.

Dean mouthed the word "FALSE" in a really, obvious, angry-but-fun way. I loved it!!!

[Cha]

5. Thanks for describing that so well! Even though I didn't see it...

I feel I did! For once the camera angle did a good thing!

[FubarFly]

13. They actually went to a split screen.

It was like the frigging WWF. (for a second ;-) )

[FarLeftRage]

9. I saw that on my local news

Since I live in the Vermont/Upstate NY area, I get to see the local news hacks covering Dean's every move...

[JohnKleeb]

2. Its interesting

[Pepperbelly]

3. unsightly ... I didn't like Gep's cheap shots ... nt

[KittyWampus]

26. I Hear You- But Disagreements May Get Ratings!

which might not be a bad thing, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I thought Dean handled himself VERY well.

Edwards has a knack for differentiating himself without bashing!

[Julien Sorel]

4. I heard part of it on that

right-wing radio show link someone provided. I had to stop listening after a while -- that host kept talking over the candidates with his mindless drivel, and I ended up wanting to reach through the connection to choke the shit out of him.

Anyway, Lieberman, whom I have to admit I'm starting to like more, jumped in at one point supporting Gephardt's attack, because Dean mis-charecterized what Gephardt said. I thought it was interesting: the two establishment guys going after the 'outsider.' I think the battle is about personal interests and politics, not so much personality. I also think the establishment is really worried about the damage Dean could do to the party, which is why you're seeing Gephardt, Lieberman, and Kerry, the most establishment guys out there, attacking him. But I'm not so sure the attacks are smart -- they give him attention, and attacks in that controlled environment are easily handled by soundbites, since there is no effective room for drilling down with follow-ups.

Maybe after the field is winnowed down some we can see some substantive debates; what we're seeing now is a beauty contest.

An odd thought: Gephardt is Mr. Union. Why is he attacking Dean, who is considered by some here to be somehow 'anti-corporate?' It's another cognitive disconnect.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Joe Lieberman Has Courage...

He doesn't pander....

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing....

He said this is his first debate where he wasn't booed....

IMHO, debates are overrated.... George W Bush lost every Republican debate but won the nomination because he was George W Bush....

The Gore-Bush debates were a littler harder to analayze.... I love Al Gore .... Al Gore destroyed Bush in the debates but blew it when he laughed at Bush... If he doesn't laugh at Bush the election is not close enough to steal....

[Julien Sorel]

12. I agree with you about Lieberman.

I heard a radio show recently where he was greeting a bunch of people in some NE state at a shopping mall. He answered every question intelligently and without ducking. He was a real seasoned pro -- a little too seasoned, I thought, almost smarmy, but this was a guy who knew what he was doing.

I disagree with him on too many issues, some of them core issues, to become a supporter, and he has that charisma problem, but I like the guy, which makes me some kind of monster in this place.



As for the debates, I think they are long commercials where people have a chance to screw themselves, but not to help themselves all that much. They get everyone some attention, and as long as no one falls flat on their face, that's a good thing. That's also why, though, I don't think sharply attacking Dean is going to yield fruit. It's so easy to reply with a soundbite and look good as a result. Dean has twice in these debates responded to 'attacks' with out-and-out falsehoods which he later had to amend, but it hasn't damaged him at all, because there's no opportunity for follow through during the debate itself.

Maybe a running debate would be a better concept than the series of discrete fora we actually have now. That way candidates can build on what happened in prior debates -- it would much more closely resemble a dialogue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Saw Gore And Lieberman In 00 At The Lake Eola Bandstand In Orlando

It was a late October rally... It was hot .... Orlando in October is still hot and I was there with my 85 year old mom who is in a wheelchair...

I didn't "hate" Joe till I got here... He was never going to get my vote but I am not going to trash him any more...

[Isere]

49. If you are a monster, then you have company!

I have from time to time spoken out in support of Lieberman as a viable candidate and have had my head chewed off at DU. So it's nice to see that a few others are willing to acknowledge his strengths in a fair-minded way. Like you, I have other candidates I prefer, but all the gleeful Lieberman-bashing at DU is quite unseemly.

In tonight's debate, I thought Lieberman showed that he is a person of substance and some humor. I wouldn't count him out.

[w4rma]

25. Lieberman *does* pander. He panders to the insurance corporations.

He panders to the multinationals who make *big* bucks exporting American jobs and selling the products made overseas back to Americans.

Lieberman is the biggest panderer of them all, because his type of pandering results in economic paybacks to him and his family down the road.

[dolstein]

31. You mean by supporting NAFTA -- like Howard Dean?

NT

[Cha]

36. "Damage Dean could do to the party"? As far as I'm concerned

gep and kerry, and lieman and all the rest have already Damaged the Party! I want an Outsider! :kick:

[DarkNite]

6. Any ideas about a Dean/Gephardt ticket...

Died after this debate. Gep obviously was trying to imply that Dean was just like Gingrich, even if he didn't say it out loud, you could see it on his face.

That, and DG's ego is probably too big to accept VP.






-DN-

[mkregel]

20. Dont be so fast....

Reagan and Bush fought like cats and dogs in the Repub Primaries...

[seventhson]

32. and then Bush tried to assassinate Reagan

see Tarpley.net

[w13rd0]

8. Gep and Kerry...

...won no points with me today. All our candidates are strong, they can all beat Bush. They can have policy disagreements, but that stank of "Dean, Dean, Dean" Desperation.

[clar]

10. Dean has long considered

Gephardt a friend. He worked on his 1988 campaign. That friendship is surely being tested.

[w13rd0]

11. Gep has been trying so long...

...and has been in Washington so long...

I'm sure he's quite frustrated...

He needs to cut it out though.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I Didn't Do This To Start A Flame War

To start a flame war you have to say "Gep Says Dean Wants To Raise The Retirement Age to 100" or "Dean Says Gep Is A Crypto Republican"

Those two guys remind me of Bush and Dole in 88...

I'm waiting for one to turn to the other and say "stop lieing about my record."

[Yupster]

22. How'd you like a pen in your neck

Was Dan Akroyd's great line as Bob Dole when Bush (Dana Carvey) debated him on Saturday Night Live.

[tsipple]

16. I Thought Gephardt Attacked...

...And I thought Dean handed Gephardt's decapitated head back to him. :evilgrin:

That's the clip that'll get played on the news. It was the biggest moment of the debate, in my humble opinion.

[Robin Hood]

18. Gephardt suprised me.

i thought that he did quite well.

[jburton]

19. Gep. heard later muttering

"Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean"

:crazy:

[salin]

21. *snicker*

couldn't help myself.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

23. I'm sorry

But Dean just BITCHSLAPPED Gephardt on that one, and Gephardt deserved it. I'll vote for Gep if he gets the nomination, but the Gingrich insinuation was just plain fucked, period.

[blm]

38. But, it was OK for Dean to call Gep "Bushlite" for months?

Posted by Karmadillo
Here's the transcript of what was REALLY said:


1. Gephardt compared a specific position Dean took regarding Medicare (cutting it by $270 billion dollars--I assume this refers to an attempt to decrease the rate of the program's growth). Here's the quote from the Washington Post transcript:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html
<edit>
GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.
He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.
more...

2. Dean later said:
DEAN: <edit> But I do think it's important that if folks are going to talk about us being like Newt Gingrich, that we're not going to stand for that. There is nobody up here that's like Newt Gingrich, and I think we have to understand that.

3. Kerry appeared to go out of his way to point out no one was saying Dean was like Gingrich (a genuinely bad guy). Gephardt had simply pointed out Dean and Gingrich had stood together to cut Medicare. Big difference.

KERRY: Well, in defense of Dick Gephardt, I didn't hear him say he was like Newt Gingrich, I heard him say that he stood with Newt Gingrich when we were struggling to hold on to Medicare. That's a policy difference.
more...

[Cha]

43. Yeah! It was okay!

gephardt in the rose garden with bush undercutting what Tom Daschle and the Democrats were working on to prevent bush's invasion...
Just more slime tactics by geppy..I don't think too much of him at all. he's a backstabber.

[salin]

46. Frankly, Kerry would have done better to stay out of the spat

detracted from his dignified presence tonight. The spat didn't make either Gep or Dean look terribly great. But what made it worse... were the moderators egging on MORE of it. That is when it reignited and Kerry jumped in.

On the spur of the moment - had I heard it as he did - my teacher "in all fairness" persona might have done the same - so I don't blame him (esp since he has been fueding with Dean a bit as well). But those who stayed out looked better. He lost a little bit of advantage gained (by not looking almost petty, as frankly the two began to look when it went to round two of the same spat - and round two was prodded by the moderators who wanted to see it.)

Sometimes getting a word in and being technically correct, isn't the best thing to do, when staying above the fray gives on the advantage of appearing dignified.

An hour or so later - it was spun on a recap of news by NPR as Gephardt and Kerry both targeting Dean, as to be expected as Gephardt was competing with Dean in Iowa, and Kerry was competing with Dean in NH. All factual. But in the report no content was recited. All that was mentioned was the fighting. Since the fight was Gep and Dean, would have been better for Kerry not to jump in. Then the report would have focused just on Gep and his squabble with Dean.

[NNN0LHI]

24. What is Deans position on Medicare and Social Security? Hope it ain't this

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/6756342.htm

<snip>During his tenure as Vermont governor, Dean advocated making the government-run, fee-for-service Medicare system a wholly managed health care program, saying in December 1995 that savings from the switch could be used to help elderly recipients pay for prescription drugs.

The Republican-controlled House, following the lead of Gingrich, passed a Medicare overhaul bill in 1995 that would have resulted in savings of $270 billion from the program over seven years. Democrats warned that the move was political suicide and would cost Republicans with voters, particularly seniors. snip

"In 1995, Howard Dean said Medicare is 'one of the worst things that ever happened,' " Gephardt said. "...When viewed in isolation, these words seem unbelievable. You'll see that Howard Dean's views about Medicare extend beyond merely disliking it. He's actually advocating cutting it and turning it into a wholly managed care program."

more

[w4rma]

27. Social Security and Health Care

health care
…
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

The plan will cost an estimated, "$88.3 billion". This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to "185% of the poverty level" (currently, $16,613).

For the "capitalist" half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived "a significant tax credit" to cushion the costs. The current "employer-based system" in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that "federal workers and members of Congress" have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive "business tax deductions" as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

social security
…
The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[NNN0LHI]

29. Thank you. I like what I have read n/t

[Upfront]

28. Backed Gephardt once.

I once drove 30 miles to vote for Gephardt in a primary I knew he would lose, and he did. How could I have been so dumb? Never again!:hurts:

[BigLed]

30. Dean showed a tight jaw

that I respected. Damn, he was pissed. It showed and I think that's okay.

It was the only part of the debate I was able to see and I'm glad I did. I saw something there that I find hard to define. Guts? You just never see that kind of look very often by these polished politicians.

Hmmmm. I still love DK but I saw something....

[Cha]

33. That's interesting! I didn't see any of the debate.

Thanks :)

[diamondsoul]

34. I saw some class on Dean's part.

He was angry, but he handled it very well, and without making himself look like a jerk. He earned some respect from me in this one when he put the emphasis on "NOBODY up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich!". That strong "NOBODY" lifted my eyebrows and got my attention.

[Cha]

37. And I think the point is well taken how much we all don't like

the newt. I hope Dean's line resonates throughout freepville.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

35. Dean is one angry fuck

And that's why I love him! I would LOVE to see him debate Bush. You half expect him to tackle the guy and put him in a fucking headlock.

In all seriousness, we're going to need a real fighter of a candidate next year, since I predict the ugliest, most evil presidential campaign of all time (barring the one they had in Haiti with the Tonton Mecouts). The more I watch Dean the more convinced I am that he's not only strong enough to stand up to Bush but could really put him on the defensive, which is really what needs to happen, in my opinion. Bush will still have that bogus "wartime president" reputation, and it will account for a lot of his staunchest support. He has to be made to look weak in order to undermine that image with the people who thought it was great when he landed on the aircraft carrier.

This isn't meant as a sleight against any of the other candidates. Any one of them would be 100 times the president Bush is, as we all know. I would just really like to see Bush get a fucking political beatdown next year, and Dean seems like the kind of candidate who could really hand his ass back to him.

[Cha]

39. That's pretty much my take on it, too!

One thinks about things like this after all we've been through the last 2 and a half years! :kick:

[mourningdove92]

45. Gephart crossed the line.

Low blow. Deserved what he got. Good response from Dean. Hehehe, I liked his comment that "no one up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich".
loved that line.
Lieberman hit a base hit with his "plucked" comment. Showed more sense of humor than I suspected.
Clark, made it through without messing up. Did pretty good for his first debate and so soon after he announced.
Mosely Braun- what a lady. Intelligent, well spoken.
Al Sharpton- smarter than he looks
Edwards- not worried. Just doing his thing. Scoring some points.
Kucinich-loved everything he said!!
Kerry-looked and sounded very Presidential.
Graham-give up dude.

[BigLed]

52. Yer right.

I haven't seen much of any of the candidates but have only been reading their words. Body language tells more. And I was damned impressed by the anger, rightous anger. "NOBODY on this stage DESERVES to be compared to Newt." Controlled anger. Yes, that is what it will take to absorb the blows we know will be delivered by the $400 million dollar (extrapolating from the current fund) negative campaign coming. Absorb and then deliver an even harder shot.

I love DK for being as Liberal as I. But this Dean guy showed me something I needed to see in our candidate, whoever that might be.

This is going to be really interesting. As much as I get turned off by all the Democratic infighting I believe it will make us stronger in the end.

ANY body but Bush.

[janekat]

40. pretty typical n/t

[poskonig]

41. I hate to see them bash each other.

Especially on an issue like heatlhcare.

[lanlady]

42. no big deal

Dean got a little testy. He needs to chill out.

[Cha]

44. Dean "got a little testy" because geppy was comparing him

to the newt? All the other DUers I've read on this say Dean handled very well!

[Cha]

47. Dean's fine! I don't want him "chillin' out"! Thank you very

much! :)

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

48. Did Sharpton call Dean "Brother Howard"?

I missed it if he did, it was right after the Dean-Gephardt exchange.

[poskonig]

50. Yup!

Dean was ostensibly mad about the Gingrich comments.

[mourningdove92]

51. Yes he did.

the camera had already cut away, but it could be clearly heard. I didn't appreciate that. Dean didn't start the spat. He just finished it.

[blm]

54. Actually, Dean over-reacted according to the transcripts.

r Sep-26-03 01:42 AM by Karmadillo
1. Gephardt compared a specific position Dean took regarding Medicare (cutting it by $270 billion dollars--I assume this refers to an attempt to decrease the rate of the program's growth). Here's the quote from the Washington Post transcript:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html

<edit>

GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.
He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.
more...

2. Dean later said:
DEAN: <edit> But I do think it's important that if folks are going to talk about us being like Newt Gingrich, that we're not going to stand for that. There is nobody up here that's like Newt Gingrich, and I think we have to understand that.

3. Kerry appeared to go out of his way to point out no one was saying Dean was like Gingrich (a genuinely bad guy). Gephardt had simply pointed out Dean and Gingrich had stood together to cut Medicare. Big difference.

KERRY: Well, in defense of Dick Gephardt, I didn't hear him say he was like Newt Gingrich, I heard him say that he stood with Newt Gingrich when we were struggling to hold on to Medicare. That's a policy difference.
more...

[Toucano]

55. Yes, he did!

It was glorious! The timing was just right, and I think Dean appreciated it.

Solidarity, Brother Howard!

[Evanstondem]

53. Gehpardt went down in flames

Any rational human being would get testy about being unjustly compared to Gingrich. My respect for Gephardt has plummeted since he began this line of attack.