HELP:I Want To Take Down the Fellowship of Christian Athletes in My School

[Corey_Baker08]

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes is a "student lead" organization in my High School. If You are not familiar with the FCA here is an excerpt from their offical website.



The FCA Vision
To see the world impacted for Jesus Christ through the influence of athletes and coaches.

The FCA Mission
To present to athletes and coaches and all whom they influence the challenge and adventure of receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, serving Him in their relationships and in the fellowship of the church.

The FCA Values
Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence

www.fca.org

-----------

I have a very big problem with this group being in my school. I am a Freshman in High School. I have been told that as long as this is student lead organization than it does not violate any rules. Well, the meetings are held on school grounds, the supplies they use are tax payer funded school supplies. I am sure there are many more violations. What gets me the most is that last year the entire Student body was forced to go to a pep rally in the Gymnasium and listen to them preach the word of god.

This has got to end now. I go back to school August 16 and I am ready for action. As President of the Class of 2008 I told my fellow students I would stand up for what I believed in, and this is something I definately believe in.

I need your help, thoughts, suggestions on where in the hell I should start. I want to look further than the case of "theres a time and a place for religion and school isnt one of them" I want legal arguements, I know that in my school there are people that feel disenfranchised with this group.

Do I have a case or since it is a student lead org is it allowed? I believe that if it is Student lead than it should be student lead somewhere else than taxpayer funded school supplies,the electricity, the gas and anything else they use for their meetings, it should be banned from the school period.

What Should I Do? I Dont go back to school until August but I would like to start early. How, write a letter to the Superintendent? Collect signatures and send them to the super intendent. What are the basics to fighting the school board, and do I have a case?

<

[DS1]

1. The only FCA at my high school was a metal garage band

and it stood for Farting Catastrophes of the Anus

Not very creative, but seeing FCA brought back that memory

[Tommymac]

2. Might want to start with the ACLU...

http://www.aclu.org/

If you go to the bottom of the page on the bottom left is a "Your Local ACLU" button - if you click on it and find your state it will give you contact info.

They would be a great place to start imho.

[punpirate]

3. Rent a house, hire a couple of hookers...

... and invite them to a party. Don't forget the camcorder. :P

Cheers.

[burrowowl]

17. Not a bad idea!

The ACLU is really booked up so might not be able to help.
However, a camcorder is a really good idea!

[funflower]

4. Sorry, kid. Under the "free exercise" clause of the first amendment to

the Constitution, the government can't stop you from practicing your religion, and the FCA kids don't check their free exercise rights at the schoolhouse door. I don't know what kinds of "supplies" they would use for this sort of thing, but they have a Constitutional and statutory (under the Equal Access Act) right to corporately practice their religion in school as well as out of it so long as they do not disrupt the school's educational mission.

Congratulations on your election as class prez! If only there were more kids (and adults) who are interested in Constitutional issues!

[dajoki]

36. i have a question

isn't forcing the entire student body into the gym to hear them preach illegal?:shrug:

[Spinzonner]

5. Why don't you contact the ACLU and ask for their perspective

[Renew Deal]

6. Make one call to the local ACLU.

That will be the beginning and the end of it.

[Guaranteed]

8. I doubt they'd advise him to proceed with this.

I don't know, but that's definitely where I'd start.

[Renew Deal]

11. They wouldn't advise.

They would probably take over the whole thing.

[cry baby]

7. Wow, this one is a big one to take on...

is this group pressuring athletes to join? If I'm not mistaken, FCA has been around for years. When I was in school (a long time ago), they didn't pressure me to join. As long as they aren't radical, why do you want to get rid of them?

Maybe the better idea would be to ask that they not preach to the pep rallies or any other event.

[SouthernDem2004]

9. Maybe you should just learn to get along and accept tolerate others

views. What do you have against this group? What horrible thing do they do?

I am sure numerous clubs meet at your school and do not pay rent, electric or gas. I doubt they are using vast amounts of school supplies either.

I am a heathen myself but I have nothing against organized religion. Religious people have the same rights as others. There is nothing wrong with them meeting to share their views.

If you succeed you will be responsible for getting every club and organization banned from school grounds. Seems unlikely though but that does not seem desireable anyway.

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. "I have a compulsory meeting you must attend"

"I'm head of the Knights of Satan. 7:30pm tomorrow in the gymnasium. Bring your children or they'll be ridiculed at school tomorrow for being scared.

See you there.

:)

What if that happened? Is that still ok with you?

[derbstyron]

10. I would let this one go.

It seems to me that they are entitled to their rights, as are you.

I fail to see how they are harming anyone.

But if you want some legal advice try the ACLU, as someone mentioned above. Another good organization that could give you their thoughts is People for the American Way:

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/

Congrats on the election.

[GeekMonkey]

33. You fail to see the harm?

preaching in school?

spreading myths as though they were real?

perpetuating the myths that are used to prop up fascism?

not harmful enough for ya?

[derbstyron]

42. The fact that it is a "myth" which is not "real"

is nothing but your opinion, not fact. Many people find it real, although from your post I gather that this is what really gets under your skin.

And don't come back with more how religion is bad crap. I consider myself quite a spiritual person but you can take the whole white beard sitting on a throne in the sky bullshit and drop it in the lake of non-existant hellfire for all I care, as I reached my thoughts on those matters years ago.

My point was that rather than approach this group with great hostility, which the poster seems to have, it might be better to deal in a more civil, thoughtful manner, since they (I know this will bother you to accept this) have rights too.

It wouldn't seem to me that to go in with a chip on your shoulder as class president to start a battle would be the most effective way to show leadership skills (gosh, can't imagine why I would have ever thought *that*)

It's that old saying, "Is this the hill you want to die on?" I think his time could be better spent on other school issues.

As a previous poster mentioned the forced assembly, if the facts are as the OP stated, could be a possible cause for concern but I am not a lawyer, which is why in my post, I mentioned that I thought he might want to check with the ACLU for further clarification.

You also apparently missed MY linking him to the People for the American Way website, which devotes much of its time in matters of church and state.

[Nay]

12. Do go to the ACLU for clarification, but the fact that the school

administration requires you to attend rallies where the FCA preaches seems to be a clear violation. The club itself is, of course, allowed to exist as a student-led organization, but once the administration forces all students to attend their prayer rallies, then you have a case, seems to me.

An alternative would be to start an atheist/pagan/wiccan sports group and demand equal time at the rallies.

[NAO]

13. Contact the "Freedom From Religion Foundation" and "Americans United"

Contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation and Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org

Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://www.au.org

You can also do your part be becoming versed in, and distributing freethought literature which exposes the claims of Christianity to rational scrutiny and finds them lacking. American Founding Father Thomas Paine's book "The Age of Reason" is an excellent starting place, and the works or Robert Ingersoll are highly enjoyable and VERY powerful.

Other resources that may be helpful in this regard:

The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition
http://freethought.freeservers.com /

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org /

Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org /

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

[Dee625]

15. Excellent list of resources there NAO

I'm certainly no expert, but from reading the OP, the only concerning part is if they really require students to attend an assembly and listen to religious talk. The group itself and meetings are probably ok.

[NAO]

16. the freethought resources are there if there is no legal option

Even if there is no legal way to disband this group, there are resources to encourage free thought and to publicly challenge the Christian B.S. (Belief System). The literature of the Freethought Movement is some of the most suppressed literature of the past 400 years.

Many people do not even know that 150 years ago there was a buzzing, vibrant movement to debunk the claims of religion and embrace secularism in the United States.

And many do not know that Thomas Paine (author of Common Sense, Rights of Man, and Crisis) also wrote "The Age of Reason" which was a devastating critique of the Bible and all revealed religion.

Many have never heard of Robert Ingersoll, who spoke to more Americans than any other person, and spoke to larger audiences than any other speaker in his time. The Evangelical clergy HATED Ingersoll, who was a constant scourge to them. They were unable to answer his arguments, and when he came to town, he drew larger crowds than their revivals. They rejoiced when he died in 1899.

The works of Thomas Paine and Robert Ingersoll are powerful liberators of human thought. They have freed more people from religious beliefs than any other writings, and are more effective and compelling in their arguments than most of the material written since.

The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition
http://freethought.freeservers.com /

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org /

Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org /

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

[JHB]

44. Don't leave Mark Twain off that list...

His "Letters from the Earth" are a real shocker for those who consider him the definition of "apple pie American" due to Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer.

[fricasseed_gourmet_rat]

51. well

I believe some book-banners want to get rid of Huck Finn not only because of its use of the N-word but also because it portrays religious hypocrites so graphically.

[PassingFair]

52. Corey Baker! Take Heed! This is EXCELLENT advise.

You can defeat the creeping infection of religion in public schools AND earn scholarship money! I urge you to contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation and speak with their legal department.

Good Luck!

[NAO]

53. "Freedom From Religion Foundation" is the single best lead here

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org

******

Evolve Fish - Your One-Stop Shop for Freethought Materials
http://www.evolvefish.com

***

[antigone382]

14. Well, I understand your passion, and I never much cared for FCA in HS.

Back then, I was a practicing Christian who read the bible, prayed, and went to church twice a week, but somehow, FCA just sort of turned me off. A lot of the kids were snobs (though not all; some were very nice people), and even though they claimed anyone was welcome, I felt instantly separated from them by both my more open interpretation of Christianity and by the fact that I was more interested in art, music, and drama than in sports.

But as to the legality of the group, I'm pretty sure they're allowed to use the school facilities, as long as other student-led religious groups have equal access. Perhaps a better course of action would be to set up some kind of student-led interfaith organization, which would promote diversity, tolerance, and a desire to learn about and appreciate the beliefs of all students, not just one group. I think this would accomplish the goal that you are trying to achieve without alienating the Christians in your school.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kipepeo]

19. From what you've posted they aren't doing anything wrong

EXCEPT for making all the students sit in on a "pep rally" where they preached at you - forcing students to listen to their proselytizing is not within their rights.

Personally I don't see why it bothers you that they are allowed to meet, etc. The same rules that protect them should also protect an anti-war student group, a jewish student group, an environmentalist student group, a gay straight alliance, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with various student groups being allowed to use school grounds and supplies, as long as it is not denied to any other group and as long as they're not allowed to force students to attend one of their meetings (which is what the pep rally you mentioned sounds like to me - it was over the line).

[Xithras]

20. The only potential illegal thing is the rally.

Religious activities on school grounds are protected by the constitution so long as the school isn't endorsing it. They have the same rights and access as every other school organization...to shut them down, you'd also have to shut everything from the Ski Club to the Gay Club down. Legally, fundies pay the same taxes that you do, so courts and laws have repeatedly reinforced their right to have the same access as anyone else. Unless you can prove that they're advocating illegal activity, you can't do much about them.

Besides, tolerance is about dealing with people you DON'T like, not about getting everyone to agree with your point of view.

Even the rally isn't exactly illegal, as the Supreme Court has already ruled that student lead prayer in schools is acceptable. It's only illegal if they're discriminating against one group in favor of another (e.g. if the school Wiccan club wants a spot at the rally and are turned down, you have a valid suit).

[WillowTree]

21. The other thing to consider about the rally...

....is that if other student-led groups are permitted to give presentations from time-to-time at school assemblies, the same priviledge must be given to the FCA. To do otherwise would be discriminatory.

[blondeatlast]

31. I remember recruiting in college dorms for the campus women's group,

along with FCA, and even the Students for Life.

We managed to remain civil, even.

[WillowTree]

22. No, you don't have a case.

Not unless you intend to work to have all student-led groups banned from school property. If there's a drama club or a chess club or a gay student's club, those would have to be "taken down", too. It's a matter of descrimination.

And I have to wonder what "supplies" you're concerned about. If you mean that they're experiencing the heat or air conditioning in the school, that would only be relevent (if at all) if they're meeting in the school during a time when no one else is present in the building and the climate control equipment would be turned-off, which is highly unlikely. If you're talking about the fact that they sit their Christian butts in the chairs or desks purchased by the taxpayers for the school, that's not going to fly, either. So what else would be left? That they may use a nickle's worth of chalk or dry-erase pens to write on the boards during their meetings? To make an issue about something that petty would be downright frivolous and really has no merit.

The bottom line is that, unless this group is receiving promotion or endorsement by the school administration, they have just as much right to exist on campus and to have limited use of the school facilities as any other student group. Sorry.

[Gay Green]

24. He does have a case about the rallies where they preach at other students

This is forced attendance at a religious sermon disguised as a "rally."

[blondeatlast]

35. Unless other groups are given the same opportunity.

If other groups are permitted to offer a presentation, OP is out of luck.

I'm not defending FCA, but they are an enormous, very well organized group with some pretty heady Christian backing, and I think the issue is far broader at the root than the OP knows.

[Walt Starr]

23. You may have a case on one thing and one thing only

The meeting where you describe every student as having been forced to sit through preaching. That may be a violation of your rights, but everything else is fine.

BTW, if a student wants to start an Atheist Club, they have to allow that, too.

[AzDar]

25. I'm thinking that as long as the school isn't ENDORSING this group, or

giving preferential treatment,it falls under Constitutional protections.....However, it is so very encouraging to know that you
are willing to take a stand on an issue probably not of great concern to a lot of High School students. Very impressive!!!!

[ComerPerro]

26. Typically I wouldn't have a problem with the group, but if they force you

to listen to their bullshit at an all-school assembly, then that's where I definately take issue.

One thing I might suggest would be to tip off a recruiter for the military to this group. After all, I am sure there are several seniors in the group who support the war. And, we already know that they are able-bodied, right?


Anyhow, your best form of protest would be to propose a group, perhaps the Fellowship of Agnostic students or something like that (whatever you prefer) and demand the same treatment as the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

[mcar]

27. It is a student led organization and, as such

has a right to meet at the school. As would a student-led gay/lesbian group, a student-led young democrats group, a student-led fellowship of muslim athletes, etc., etc.

If FCA is big in your school, I doubt you'll get anywhere trying to get rid of it and you'll only stir up a hornet's nest of fundie freaks on your back.

You may, however, have a case with the issue of FCA preaching at a pep rally which all students attend. That one I'd definitely address with the principal because it could be a violation.

Good luck and enjoy your school year. Being president of the class is a great honor. Don't let yourself get preoccupied with a fight you can't win.

[RandomKoolzip]

28. Why bother? You'll just create a huge backlash.

Don't you know how the Christian "Fellowship" media network works? One Christain group runs into a hassle, they interpret it as "persecution." Next thing you know, there's calls made to the larger Christian organizations, who in turn alert the local media, who in turn alert the regional media, who in turn alert the national media. And by the time the national media is on it, Rush Limbaugh is reporting about the incident on his show, Hannity too, and thousands of "Liberals hate religion! They want to ban the bible!!!" LTTEs suddenly pop up in thousands of newspapers. All of which just "strengthens" the "Faith" of Fundies across the country.

You'd probably have a more enjoyable and productive time eating your body weight every day in mercury.

[noonwitch]

29. The rallies are the problem

The rallies, plus the expectation that the student body at large will participate in them, have the appearance of the school's endorsement of religion.

When I was in high school, I participated in Young Life, an evangelical organization. They were allowed to post signs in the school hallway about where the meeting that week was going to be-they met every Wednesday night at different kids' houses, so we never met at the school. The counselors (as anyone's clergy was free to do) could come in at lunch time to talk or pray with us, and that was it. It wasn't in the year book and the school made sure that there was no staff endorsement.

We had one assembly sponsored by the organization, that walked the line very well. The focus of the assembly was to enlighten us to the misfortunes of people less well off than us and consisted of a musical/slide presentation that was about different efforts nationwide to alleviate poverty and crime in poor communities. It had more of a Peace Corps/VISTA feeling about it than a religious one. There was no evangelical appeal in it, unless you count the slide at the end that listed all the organizations that supported the program.

[blondeatlast]

30. Do you want to rescind the opportunity to present at pep rallies to ALL

student organizations? Think very carefully about that, because that's the hornet's nest that you will stir up with this move.

Is it okay for 4H, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts to "preach" at a pep rally? How about the student Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Atheists, Wiccans?

Perhaps as student body president you should show the leadership to actually TALK to the organization that offends you?

FCA is an ENORMOUS organization with some pretty seriousbacking.

Surprisingly, they AREN'T religiously insane, for the most part. I've known a few FCAers, and my next door neighbor in college was one, and one of the most liberal people I knew at college. She was also a world class swimmer and an Olympic athlete.

[Dee625]

54. Irrelevant comparisons

Most of the groups you mentioned are not likely to violate the seperation of church and state by preaching at a school assembly because they aren't a religion. (Except possibly the Boy Scouts or Wiccans).

Just because the people you know in this group are nice or even liberals doesn't mean they can preach if the public school audience is REQUIRED to listen. That requirement (captive audience as someone else said) would be the only issue.

Serious backing is definitely not the issue. Do you want every orgazinization with "serious backing" to be able to give a presentation to students?

[BushFungus]

32. Well

if the Pep Rally forced the entire student body to listen to the word of God, then that single act could be considered as a separation of church/state issue. You get that kind of thing in church, not school. But what I want to know is, what did they say? Did they preach the Gospel or something?

Just curious, why are you offended by them? Is it for personal reasons - i.e. you disagree with Christianity, or is it because you are passionate about church/state separation issues?

[GeekMonkey]

34. Start a Wiccan Study Group

Claim the same rights to school facilities as they do.

Watch how fast they organize against you.

Then use their arguments against them.

[blondeatlast]

37. Are you ready to be an example?

Because once the "Christian persecution" whiners get hold of this, you will be.

One thing leaders quicklly learn is to pick their battles wisely.

Your profile indicates that you are interested in politics. If you feel that strongly about the issue, proceed with courage.

If there's a personal issue involved, though, I suggest you think twice.

I don't know if you quite comprehend the reach of FCA, and you play right into the "Christian persecution" bullshit so rampant todya.

[arwalden]

38. Student-Led Religion Is Still RELIGION! -- AWAY WITH IT!!

You are right! Good luck!

[Corey_Baker08]

45. Thats What Im Saying....

The group didnt do anything to me personally, I dont want religion in my school. I dont want the word of god in my halls or in my class rooms. I want to learn what I come to school to learn, i dont want school to turn into secondary church.

Unfortunatley theres not much I can do about it obviously, except make a sign for my locker that says Get Your Religion Out of My School.

[Squatch]

46. The First Amendment is a son-of-a-bitch, ain't it?

On edit: toned it down for Freshman ears. :evilgrin:

[valniel]

39. The part "Student body was forced to go to a pep rally" is troublesome

The part "Student body was forced to go to a pep rally" is troublesome. Also, if FCA in any way negatively impact non-members participation in sports would be a big problem, e.g., recent religious controversy at Air force Academy.

[Solly Mack]

40. If a school assembly is mandatory, then NO, the FCA cannot

make a speech talking about their religion. They can set up a table introducing those who stop by to their organization(like at the start of a school year).

They can say a few words about their organization - but they are limited in what they say and how they say it.

I went through this back in 1982.

It falls under captive audience...

Now, times have changed(more and more, Christians are being allowed to violate the rights of others).....but a group of us won our point with an appeal to the school board. You can't force a student to listen to someone preach - anyone preach - not even another student.

Good Luck! And call the ACLU.

[theboss]

41. This has been decided long ago

Religious groups can meet on school campuses so long as the school does not actively promote the beliefs of the group.

This is a fight you are not going to win.

[Squatch]

43. No-can-do

The first reason is this:

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The second reason is this:

Equal Access Act
It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school which receives Federal financial assistance and which has a limited open forum to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting within that limited open forum on the basis of the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.

Link

[pocket]

47. first you need to get a black trench-coat

muahaaahaaa

[blondeatlast]

48. Neither funny nor intelligent. nt

[pocket]

49. Oh lighten up

you'll live longer.

[fricasseed_gourmet_rat]

50. I don't think it's possible.

Lots of colleges, including state schools, have Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc. fellowships. This is sort of like that. I don't think you could disband it.

BUT: are you Jewish (or Muslim, Buddhist, etc.)? You could demand that the school sponsor a Jewish athlete fellowship (or heck, ANY kind of Jewish fellowship). If they say no, make a big, big stink.

That's the only thing I can think of.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. the ACLU is one place to go, here's another:

Americans United for Separation of Church and State

Those folks are more qualified than I am, at least, to tell you if there are constitutional conflicts or issues in the situation you describe.

(But, hey, if you get a hold of the ACLU, will you ask them what the %$#@%^&* is up with the new round of Abu Ghraib FOIA material? We haven't forgotten about 'em. -Thanks!)