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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:31 AM
Original message
Scandal preparations .....
DUers who have been active on the Plame Threads for a year or more will excuse this review of two figures who will, in relatively short order, be seen to have participated in the scandal that will expose the ugliest side of the Cheney administration. But, for those who are interested, let us examine the role of two key players: Stephen Hadley and Condi Rice.

It is easy to dismiss Rice as a confused soul who simply doesn't "get it." For example, we think of her saying, "It is ludicrous to suggest the president of the United States went to war on the question of whether Saddam Hussein sought uranium in Africa. This was part of a very broad case that the president laid out in the State of the Union and other places." (Fox News Sunday; July 13, 2003) Right. The idea of WMD and mushroom clouds was never part of the administration's lies to the American public.

Actually, this was simply part of Condi's outright lies. The administration had been using the Niger yellow cake documents as a "smoking gun" which "proved" Saddam had violated every effort at containment which those opposed to Bush's rush to war were advocating as successful.

When the IAEA publicly denounced the documents as forgeries, and Wilson noted the administration knew that they were fully discredited, Condoleezza categorically lied, and said that noone -- including herself -- at the senior level at the White House had received any information that suggested the documents were not strong evidence. Shortly thereafter, she had to admit that her office recived two memos from the CIA saying just that; further, Condi had to admit that the NSC had received a phone call from the CIA stressing the fact the documents were worthless.

Rice then took the novel position that in the three months between Bush's October speech in Ohio (where John Bolton's repeated attempts to stick the yellow cake lies in were frustrated by people who knew better) and the State of the Union address, she simply "forgot." Right. The single "strongest" evidence of Saddam's WMD programs is exposed as a lie, but she forgot. Sure. As Wilson notes on pages 331-2, "How does someone whose job it is to track nuclear weapons developments, especially in rogue states, receive such critical information and then proceed to forget it? This is not a grade school homework assignment. The short answer is they didn't forget, unless they are derelict. Regrettably, disingenuousness is another possibility. Condoleezza Rice may be many things, but she is hardly derelict."

Is Ambassador Wilson (who drank mint tea) suggesting that this sweet and innocent flower that blooms in the compost of neocon trash is a liar? Good heavens! This virginal specimen of righteousness? Let's see: when she was asked on "Meet the Press" about the administration's having received the information that the documents that were the central "smoking gun" in the administration's WMD case for emergency intervention in Iraq, she said, "maybe someone knew down in the bowels of the Agency," suggesting the CIA was full of shit. But let's look closer for the aministration's favorite turd before we flush this chapter from the Plame discussion.

Shortly after Wilson's NYT article exposed the "16 words" in the president's State of the Union address as a lie (i.e., falsehood, untruth, fib, taradiddle, pious fiction, tall tale, cock-n-bull, or full of shit, as in the bowels of the administration), CIA Director George Tenet -- looking for a pat of appreciation on his humbly bowed head -- said that he took full responsibility. But it was clear that responsibility lay elsewhere, and as Wilson makes crystal clear, this Nixonian adventure with the truth had its genesis in the State Department. (See Wilson, pages 351-55)

Deputy NSC Adviser Stephen Hadley had been responsible for vetting Bush's State of the Union speech. And Steve had to admit that he left those 16 words in, despite the fact that he had recieved two CIA memos and a personal phone call from CIA Director Tenet which made clear the Niger documents were forgeries and lies. "The high standards the president set were not met," Hadlet sadly admitted, though he did not identify which president he was referring to.

Wilson notes: "Earlier, in a press briefing on July 11, Hadley's boss, Condoleezza Rice, had skirted the issue of the sixteen words by saying: 'If there were doubts about the underlying intelligence to the National Intelligence Estimate, those doubts were not communicated to the president, the vice president, or to me.' After Hadley admitted the existence of the memos and suddenly recalled the telephone call from Tenet, Rice had no choice but to own up to her own culpability in the matter. On July 30, in an interview with PBS correspondent Gwen Ifill, she grudgingly acknowledged her responsibility, but not before trying yet again to fob the blame off on Hadley, much as she had earlier tried to blame Tenet.

" 'What we learned later, and I did not know at the time, and certainly did not know until just before Steve Hadley went out to say what he said last week, was that the director had also sent over to the White House a set of clearance comments that explained why he wanted this out of the speech. I can tell you, I either didn't see the memo, or I don't remember seeing the memo.' Gwen Ifill finally asked Rice directly: 'Do you feel any personal failure or responsibility for not having seen this memo and flagged it to anybody else who was working on this speech?' Rice responded: 'Well, I feel personally responsible for this entire episode. The president of the United States has the right to believe that what he is saying in his speeches is of the highest confidence of his staff.' " (pages 352-3)

Within a short period of time, Rice would begin to pretend that she had never heard of Ambassador Joseph Wilson, and had never heard of him. He wrote that he was at first unsure of why she seemed to go out of her way to make this part of the public record, when there was really no question that she knew exactly who he was. I think we will see the answer to that. Very soon.
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GainesT1958 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. These two may well have had a role in it..
But I still say--and I've maintained for two years now--that "Chip" Rove is the culprit...and so the TRAITOR!:mad:

He needs to be in a jail cell, just like his Watergate predecessors.

B-)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The need of the day
may be a cell block, large enough for the top tier of the most criminal administration in our nation's history.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Rice is evil, pure fucking evil
The photos of her when she lied to the 11 september commission says it all. If ever I wanted for a vision of Grima Wormtongue she is it. I hope that she faces justice along with the rest of these evil fucks, but her especially.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. She is indeed
the least skilled at hiding the venom that poisons her soul. It has done terrible things to her facial features. I do not care if a person is attractive or unattractive; as Gandhi has noted, Socrates was described as having the ugliest features in all of Greece, but the truth made him beautiful. Rice has been distorted by viciousness: her facial expressions when caught lying were telling.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. To Me She Looks Like A Cobra
Just saying.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
92. Funny uou sssshould sssay that :)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Wow
What a trip!
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. And a Strange One At That!
Everyone of them, and let's not forget Ari Flesher, Jeff Gannon, and all the rest. A filthy, greasy disgrace to this nation, our troops, our global intelligence.

How anyone could ever vote for Republicans is beyond the realm of comprehension. They're the "Culture of Corruption" and that's putting it mildly.

All of them are Evil Ba$tard$! They make me :puke:
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
100. Repuk Friends Say "Condi seems so nice!"
My response: "That's what they said about Jeffrey Damer!"
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. I will NEVER forget her...
...fucking, lying testimony to the 911 Commission. She sat there and lied through those buck teeth of hers like she was a saint from on high and that anyone who dared question what the Bush Admin was up to was a tool of the devil. I agree: She is EVIL and I just hope that Fitzgerald has dug deep enough and long enough to get her and the rest of the liars that sent us to war for no fucking reason.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. Don't forget
Novak said he got his information from two high level officials. Howzabout Rove and Rice?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Interesting.
Certainly worth considering all options.
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DaveT Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent review
You'd think it would be easier not to lie in the first place.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. "You own your lies"
In an interview I did years ago with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman, I remember him saying that it is important to try to always tell the truth. He said that you own your lies, and that they follow you throughout your life. I think Condi's lies are about to stick to her. And I think that in the upcoming week, we will begin to hear her and old Steve Hadley's being more closely associated with the plot to out Valerie Plame, and to then cover-up the crime. (This may explain the normally "double super secret" Hadley's recent appearance on the Charlie Rose show.)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
102. Why was he on Rose's show? That's interesting.
I haven't watched Rose in years.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. A foreign policy discussion ....
Rose's show is okay at times. Other times, it's not. He seemed ill at ease, and unwilling to ask Hadley anything that rates as a serious question. I found it to be a strange show. Just watching Hadley made the hair on the back of my neck rise.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. nominated.. Rice is a deliberate liar
no mistake about it
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. There have been hints
that Hadley & Rice played a role i the attempts to cover-up the White House's exposing Valerie Plame. I think there is a good chance that someone in the corporate media might break ranks this week and tell the public more about this.

Many people would be surprised to know that the Irish clans of Mac Domhnaill, which in America are called the O'Donnells, include one sept that is of galloglass origin. They are still found in the Glens of Antrim. They are related to the Galloways, and have a knack for telling the truth.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. I'm from clan MacMillan, we're all incorrigible liars.
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 11:02 AM by Zorbuddha
Just kidding.

Lying is something you own, for sure, and it winds up owning you.

Thanks for starting this thread, and for all the fascinating and eclectic historical info.

Karma is real.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. One of them
Scotts in Ulster, eh? A Mac Maolain used to wear the tonsured hair of a monk, so I think they may have stretched the truth to achieve a greater good. But lied? Never.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. We're bloody angels.
All of us. But, never is a long stretch.

I'm really not up on my roots. Never been driven to look too far into it. All I've been told is my grandad's family is from Clan MacMillan, who's castle is in the borderlands somewhere. I wish I knew more. I should at least have the family tartan, etc.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
35. But What About Hannah?
Not to be redundant or anything, but where does he fit into all of this?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. What about Hannah?
Taking directions from our faithless leader Rumsfeld, I'd say we will find Mr. Hannah's involvement a bit to the north, as well as the south, and also to the east, and to the west. Or, in a less Rumsfeldian manner of speaking, he is deeply involved. Always keep your eyes on the two "intelligence" groups that Simon bar Sinister's more evil twin, Dick Cheney, directed to be set up.

Back on what I call the "Old Plame Threads," some kind soul posted a chart of the administration, I think. We may need something similar, perhaps slightly updated, for future examinations of the role people played in the Plame scandal.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
103. Condi would NEVER lie!! Stop saying that!
/sarcasm

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. Oh, I agree!
I think it's terrible that anyone would insult our little Condi. She is a princess! And that's the real story at the bottom of this whole scandal: doesn't she dress sharply? Isn't her hair nicer than Marsha Clark's?
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nominated, and kicking.
Here's constitutional question though: can Fitz indict Cheney? Rice? Other cabinet members? Impeachment is the only recourse to crimes committed by the President, but what about the VP and the rest of the cabinet?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Good question.
I'm happy to report that he can. Remember Spiro Agnew.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
101. Thanks to All Informed Out Here - Tonight I Might Sleep Better.
Mean that. Not political, but a fed-up American. If it were not for all of you with such detailed knowledge, folks such as myself wouldn't know fact from fiction.

Kudos to each of you. It's greatly appreciated.

:loveya:
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. I remember in the beginning days of the * administration, when Condi Rice
was first coming on. I thought to myself "he might be an idiot but at least he has a smart woman advising him." I read her resume and was very impressed.

As the years went by I was continually amazed at what a kiss-ass lying jerk she actually was. Just another example of an extremely intelligent person who could have done great things for this country and chose instead to become a * sycophant. Gone to the Dark Side. What a waste of a good brain.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Perhaps she was your role model ....
but now you've matured and recognize her as a criminal. There is a lot of Lizzie Borden in Condi, you know. (grin)
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Go ahead, make fun.
That was in the days before I really knew anything about politics or how awful the * administration was. I never expected things to get as bad as they are now. All my life I lived in happy ignorance of politics and politicians. The Plame case was actually what woke me out of my naive stupor. That is when I decided to take an active role in Wes Clark's campaign. The more I learn the more I wish I didn't know!

I miss the days when I didn't have to care about who was running the country. I think if still lived in NY things might be easier for me -- NY is at least Democratic and I wouldn't be surrounded by * loving sheep. DU is my haven.

Condi is a real disappointment. I guess I think that women should be above all that mess. An intelligent woman like Condi should be doing good, not evil. She is the biggest disappointment in the * administration in my book!
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. It's refreshing how you openly describe awakening from a naive stupor.
This is the sort of candor I hope more like you will take to heart, and snap the fuck out of it. The planet is getting very small.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Oh, I have no illusions about
my previous state of ignorant bliss. I honestly didn't know or care much. It takes an awful lot for someone as apathetic as I once was to wake up and start caring about politics. I used to find the whole business a bit of a bore! I admit it.

But I would rather be naive, bored and apathetic than what I am now -- depressed, angry, impatient for change. I was shocked out of my apathy. Since I was so deeply indifferent, I wonder how come the whole country has NOT reacted as I did. How can so many people just ignore what is going on? How can so many people not see this administration for what it is? If I woke up why didn't everybody else?

You gotta wonder how much people want to be in ignorance. I think apathy is a very weak word to describe the lack of reaction we see to the Bush administration.

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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Responsibility
strikes deep.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. so does
paranoia. Remember the song? By Crosby Stills and Nash?
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Into your life
it will creep.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. It starts when you're always afraid
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Step outta line, the man come
and take you away.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. one of hte best protest songs EVER!
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
78. That, and
Eve of Destruction
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joseppi Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
84. CSN - Nope
Check your facts, it was the Buffalo Springfield. You will note commonality of talent though. The sentiment is right.

Joe
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. A distinction without much difference
but surely accurate. Buffalo Springfield was a cool name, but a peace-mongering band of the 60s couldn't be named for the rifle that nearly wiped out the American bison, not to mention the indigenous people that relied upon them. It had to go, I reckon.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. It's all about teams.
Americans are competitive sports-besotted from a very early age, and also brainwashed by the most mindless sort of "patriotism."

People choose up sides, because that's how competitive sports are played. Then they invest themselves, their whole being, in the success of their team. The issue is never right or wrong, good or bad, but whether their team is winning or losing.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. Very good points, tblue37
about the brainwashing and the competitive-sports besottedness.
It is, to many people, all about whether their "team" is winning or losing.

It doesn't seem to matter to them if they, their families, kids, grandkids, parents, whatever, are being totally screwed over in the process; if they end up homeless, their kids uneducated and working at McJobs (if they're lucky) or in jail (if they're not lucky).

As long as their "team" is winning.

They perceive Geo. II as a winner, and therefore, if they support him--whatever he does or says--it reflects on them, and by association, they are a winner too.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Are you a Kansan?
I see you have the sunflower avatar, too.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #66
109. No, I just like sunflowers. South Carolina. nt
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #109
114. I was an Air Force brat.
When I was a child we lived for a few years in Ft. Sumter, S.C.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
82. Happened in a similar way for me
I had always voted in the presidential elections but otherwise didn't pay much attention at all. The thing that did it for me was the aftermath of 9/11 when all of my neighbors started putting up flags and the patriotism was beginning to sound a lot like nationalism, a la Germany of the 30s. I started researching and found out that the rabbit hole goes deep.

Now I know most everything I need to know but I have to spend an awful lot of time here and at Buzzflash to make sure I stay current. I've also gotten more interested in local elections and now I'm informed before I vote.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. I know how you feel! From one Wes Clark supporter to another.
:hug: I miss the days when I didn't have to care about who was running the country.

I keep telling my husband that sometimes I think it's better to be ignorant and not care about what's going on in the country because what I know now makes me SICK, ANGRY, DEPRESSED, POWERLESS, and just plain old PISSED OFF on a daily basis. The crap just never ends. The lawlessness of this administration is mind-boggling and the inability of the Congressional Dems to stand up to them is downright disheartening.

IGNORANCE REALLY IS BLISS? I'm beginning to think so.

Here's to Wes Clark! :loveya::toast:
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Hi there incognito! Long time no see!
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 11:30 AM by coeur_de_lion
I remember you very well from the primary. I had a different username back then but you and I have been on many of the same discussion threads in the past. I remember all too well our crushing disappointment when the General conceded to Kerry.

I hope the General is a candidate in 2008. I'll be there, if he is, helping however I can.

Yes indeed, here's to General Clark!


:toast:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Wes will ALWAYS be my candidate of choice!
:toast: I'm PRAYING he runs in '08. I'll work my behind off for him.

Good to see you...whoever you are! LOL! :crazy:
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. I'll PM you with my old identity! Sorry to be so mysterious. n/t
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
108. I agree. Do you ever really wonder
if it would be good to pay less attention? I do. Just vote straight ticket for Dems and tune it out??? It became painful from the very earliest days of bush. I disliked him as soon as I heard him speak but I never dreamed he would be as horrible as he is. In his first months he changed so many policies, almost unnoticed, that horrified me and it got so much worse from there.
And here he is again. Over time he (they) are just more and more blatant.

What good does it do to know so much? Really. Does it just add to negative energy? Is there some way that it helps us as individuals or a group or country that we stay so attentive? Or is it just like gawking at an accident?

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
11. The whole gang conspired to mislead us from day one.
And, I'll say this,...those who participated and resigned/retired aren't off the hook either. I am not a person who hates but I totally loathe these bloody criminals. They have caused more harm than any ruthless serial killer and they should suffer consequences that match the damage to our country and the world. They owe a huge debt.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. GOOD WORK!!!!
The tangled webs we weave, when first we pratice to deceive.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent synopsis. Thank you very much for this, H20 Man
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. I call here Condiliesalot
well because she lies like a dog. Yes she sells the lies with a pretty smile....
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. There should be a Senate hearing to look at all of Bushco lies
that can be demonstrably and irrefutably shown to have actively engaged in distorting the record and duping the American people.

There would be a clusterimpeachment.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
20. great narrative Mr. H2O Man!
Looking forward to future installments. This really is a good way to explain a rather complex story...and there's lots more to this story than most people realize.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. And that there is!
It is almost impossible for the casual political observer to keep track of how many people in the administration are involved in this. When we step back and see it as a three leaf clover (Plame; neocon spy; forged documents), it makes sense. But it is still necessary to examine each leaf under a microscope.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
22. This goes to ALL the members of the NSC.
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 11:08 AM by Pithy Cherub
Most do not know that the NSC is really the foreign policy apparatus that has run the WH since Eisenhower. Condi as the ranking permanent chair of this was responsible for the NSC's work product both covert and public operations.

The NSC principals can authorize actions and subgroups through this completely legal WH group. It has NO congressional oversight, on purpose and that is codified in the law from 1947. Hence, part of the reason for acting and speaking with impunity. The book "Running the World" will absolutely send you right over the edge when you see how each NSC is set up in the WH and its ability to get into operational details it is not qualified to handle. Think Ollie North, Poindexter and a host of continuing characters received their training and access through the NSC. The NSC is a hot bed of working with and against the State Department, intelligence agencies, the Defense department and foreign governments at its discretion. No oversight!

NSC - National Security Council. Every WH has one and it is set up according to wishes and whims of the POTUS.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. "No oversight" =
no democracy. It's that simple. The NSC was a giant leap towards the imperial presidency.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. Gwen Ifill is her "best buddy" so

to have her ask that question tells me that Condi wanted it asked so that he sham could be on the record.

Do a google of Gwen and Condi and it will blow your mind.

Gwen is a shield for Condi.

I know she asked Bush a couple of tough questions in the debate. I am sure he knew what she would ask in advance.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
29. Add to this Condi's Aluminum tubes LIES, Anodized coatings
would have to be REMOVED, WRONG sizes, WRONG construction, on and on...and of course the infamous 'no one could have imagined' bullshit.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Very important point.
That was a huge link in the series of outright lies that has resulted in the death of thousands of people. Thanks for reminding us.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
37. Until Judith Miller testifies, this case is goin NOWHERE
too bad she's terrified. CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart reports Miller said: "I won't testify. The risks are too great. The government is too powerful."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/07/national/main707048.shtml


Unless she gets protection from someone powerful enough to make her feel safe, Rove will get off Scotfree.

Where's the DNC when you need em? We must tell them to get on this:

http://www.democrats.org/page/s/contact
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Not true.
It will go forward one way or the other. The "one way" will begin with criminal charges of obsruction of justice against poor Judith. If she faces years in prison, she will likely talk. But if not, there is still plenty of evidence to indict then convict others. And, if she does talk, it will help the prosecution.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. But is there enough in Cooper's testimony for a criminal indictment?
Everyone I've heard on the MM seesms to be saying no, even self-confessed libs.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Yes, there is.
A good model to use is Watergate. All indictments do not occure in a single instance. People are turned, one level at a time. Spending the summer in jail is enough to make some people talk. Others need to face years in prison.

I haven't heard anyone on the corporate media saying that without Miller, there isn't a case. If there are people saying that, don't assume they are correct. There are others who are beginning to say that there is a heck of a lot more involved than previously recognized, and that as Norah O'Donnell said, it could become a huge scandal for this administration.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Yep, and remember: Watergate was not about the crime...
it was about the cover-up.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
85. Novak testified too n/t
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
83. I don't think you're right about that
They have Novaks testimony and they have Coopers to corroborate. Judith would just be icing on the cake.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. believe me, I'd be glad to be wrong in this case
I know the talking heads are not known for their truthfulness, but they are saying at this point that there isn't enough. damage control perhaps? Rve has had plenty of time to prepare for this
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I'm normally a pessimist
but I think this one is a live one. They all look too damn scared. And they're spinning so fast I'm surprised one or more of them hasn't puked.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Bush has been blowing so much smoke up his own ass, lately
he's starting to levitate.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
41. Why does she always get a pass
Why does no one ever say, Madam - it was your FUCKING JOB to know this shit. Are you really claiming INCOMPETENCE? And if so, WHY HAVEN'T YOU RESIGNED IN DISGRACE?

Why don't people treat her like an intelligent woman who got it wrong? Why is she so shielded?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. I think the republicans
with the help of their media puppets, have created an illusion that anyone who points out the truth -- as you just did -- is a "bully" with questionable motives.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. And it makes it doubly worse that she's Black.......
Bush knew exactly what he was doing when he appointed her. Not only was she a liar but she was Black. I'm just waiting for the repubs to play the race card when she gets slammed for all her bullshit.

Hell, they played it during the confirmation hearings and I'm sure they'll play it again. What should have been an appointment that Black Americans could have looked on with pride will, I predict, be looked at as one where one of our own helped sell the country down the river.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. it is frustrating that so many in this administration are unable to
accept responsibility for their mistakes.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
51. Very nice, well written and inspiring piece of work, H2O Man. Thanks.
:yourock: :bounce: and :woohoo:

Peace and lets go get them. "We'll smoke them out", "Dead or Alive"!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
89. It's interesting:
I think that other than inside the various government agencies, and the grand jury, that DU has had the greatest collection of information on the case to be found. Much of it -- such as this little essay -- comes from Wilson's fantastic book, and related books and articles. In the past 13 or 14 months, there have been some interesting and informative discussions.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #89
118. "None dare call it Conspiracy" Gary Allen
Go to amazon and get the book.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #89
119. John Dean called it. "Worse than Watergate", and I think he must
know. Bless his heart. I stand behind the man.

Just keep repeating, "WORSE THAN WATERGATE!"
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
52. H2O Man, this is one of the funniest articles you've written.
I was laughing hard at how you exposed how full of shit these jokers in the misadministration are. Rice does have quite a propensity for forgetting things. Yet both she and Hadley, instead of receiving admonishments for their shortcomings, were both promoted. I'm quite sure that if she were ever called by Fitzgerald before the Grand Jury, her performance would be even worse than her preening before the 9/11 Commission.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. RP, That Chart H Was Referring To
Sounds right up your alley. Not volunteering you or anything. Just saying, as it struck me.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I'm not sure what chart you're referring to, Me.
You mean the memo that Condi forgot about?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. See Post #44
But again, not trying to push you into anything.

On CNN just now they are saying about a conversation they had with Luskin, Rove's lawyer, that he said neither the CIA nor Cheney sent Wilson to Niger, his wife did. And KKK was just filling Cooper in on background. Anyone interested in buying my share of the Brooklyn Bridge from me?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Thanks.
I'll see if I can find the original. I think it was one of the later threads that had it.

I am fuming :mad: reading what you wrote about what Luskin said. Then again, if Rove or anyone else said that Wilson's wife sent him to Niger under oath, they are facing a serious perjury charge. We can only hope.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. It might make her President
in this bizarro world.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. It wouldn't be the first time we had a President with no memory.
Sometimes this Plame scandal reminds me a lot of Iran-Contra.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Or was criminally culpable.
America couldn't be bothered to invest the time to look into Iran-Contra deeply enough to see it for what it truly was. Likewise, many Americans have formed superficial opinions about the Plame scandal.

Peel the mask off this one, and it will be a real shocker...I believe.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. It is the Iran-Contra scandal.
For a general public, it is important to discuss this case in terms of Watergate; that is what they are able to understand best.

For those who have a grasp of the true nature of the BFEE, it is clear that this is actually just what you are calling it -- it's an extension of the Iran-Contra scandals.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. Yes indeed. Abrams, Ledeen etc.
Here's an article I found on the subject while going through the old Plame threads:

Iran-Contra, amplified
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EH12Ak03.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. Thank you!
Now I know I reached my goal. We need to start laughing at these clowns.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
56. Hadley and Rice were instrumental in selling the product
Same cast of characters in the WHIG and the OSP driven "intelligence" ....

~snip~

Systematic coordination began in August, when Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. formed the White House Iraq Group, or WHIG, to set strategy for each stage of the confrontation with Baghdad. A senior official who participated in its work called it "an internal working group, like many formed for priority issues, to make sure each part of the White House was fulfilling its responsibilities."

In an interview with the New York Times published Sept. 6, Card did not mention the WHIG but hinted at its mission. "From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August," he said.

The group met weekly in the Situation Room. Among the regular participants were Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser; communications strategists Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin and James R. Wilkinson; legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio; and policy advisers led by Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, along with I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39500-2003Aug9?language=printer

~snip~

The OSP absorbed this heady brew of raw intelligence, rumour and plain disinformation and made it a "product", a prodigious stream of reports with a guaranteed readership in the White House. The primary customers were Mr Cheney, Mr Libby and their closest ideological ally on the national security council, Stephen Hadley, Condoleezza Rice's deputy.

In turn, they leaked some of the claims to the press, and used others as a stick with which to beat the CIA and the state department analysts, demanding they investigate the OSP leads.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
73. That's the ball game,
isn't it? That's the team of White House all-stars. And that's the game they play.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. That WaPo article is quite something to re-read almost 2 yrs later
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 04:37 PM by leftchick
Lie after Lie after Lie are all quoted from the neo-cons. It is easy to see the why and where the deception was coming from right from the start.

~snip~

The unveiling of that message began a year ago this week.

Cheney raised the alarm about Iraq's nuclear menace three times in August. He was far ahead of the president's public line. Only Bush and Cheney know, one senior policy official said, "whether Cheney was trying to push the president or they had decided to play good cop, bad cop."

On Aug. 7, Cheney volunteered in a question-and-answer session at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco, speaking of Hussein, that "left to his own devices, it's the judgment of many of us that in the not-too-distant future, he will acquire nuclear weapons." On Aug. 26, he described Hussein as a "sworn enemy of our country" who constituted a "mortal threat" to the United States. He foresaw a time in which Hussein could "subject the United States or any other nation to nuclear blackmail."

"We now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons," he said. "Among other sources, we've gotten this from firsthand testimony from defectors, including Saddam's own son-in-law."

That was a reference to Hussein Kamel, who had managed Iraq's special weapons programs before defecting in 1995 to Jordan. But Saddam Hussein lured Kamel back to Iraq, and he was killed in February 1996, so Kamel could not have sourced what U.S. officials "now know."

And Kamel's testimony, after defecting, was the reverse of Cheney's description. In one of many debriefings by U.S., Jordanian and U.N. officials, Kamel said on Aug. 22, 1995, that Iraq's uranium enrichment programs had not resumed after halting at the start of the Gulf War in 1991. According to notes typed for the record by U.N. arms inspector Nikita Smidovich, Kamel acknowledged efforts to design three different warheads, "but not now, before the Gulf War."

.... Never saw this information on my TV at the time. It was all rah-rah Iraq Liberated at the time.



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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Thank you for that link!
It seems like all roads lead back to WHIG/OSP. Here's another link that synopsizes the situation:

Iraq:
The Trail of Disinformation

Let's start with a simple fact. The United States invaded and conquered Iraq on the basis of lies. Even the official report of the United States Senate admits as much.
So, where did all this bad information come from? While the culprits would like to pin the blame on the Central Intelligence Agency, the facts point in a different direction. To cite just one example, the now-discredited claim that Saddam was trying to buy "Yellow Cake" Uranium from Niger came from the Pentagon, specifically from Paul Wolfowitz, using information the CIA stated was unreliable. Wolfowitz, and his assistant Douglas Feith, set up a special office called the "Office of Special Plans" in 2001, that fed information to the White House to urge the attack on Iraq. Shortly after the invasion, the OSP was disbanded.

So, the trail of the lies that started a war goes from the White House, to the Pentagon, to the Office of Special Plans. But where was the OSP getting their information? Clearly, they were not using information provided by the CIA, or the CIA would not have denounced their sources as "unreliable". According to some reports, the OSP was using "consultants" who came from outside the Pentagon and operated with no oversight or accountability! The Office of Special Plans operated on its own, off the official payroll and away from Congressional oversight. According to several sources, it was the information given out by the Office of Special Plans that Dick Cheney "encouraged" the the CIA to adopt! So where does the trail lead from the OSP?

snip

UPDATE: Since this article was originally written, yet another scandal involving Israeli spies has exploded. This one involves two senior people at AIPAC, the Israeli lobbying group (which pours millions of dollars into Congressional campaigns to re-engineer the US Congress to favor Israel) and Larry Franklin, who worked inside the Pentagon Office of Special Plans a the very time the now-discredited claims of Iraq's WMDs were pouring forth, sending YOUR kids off to be killed and crippled in war.

more...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trailofdisinformation.html
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. thank you for your link as well
it is very easy to connect these obvious dots. It is a shame we have no mainstream journalists on TV doing it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
62. Rice, Cheney and Bush are all WELL AWARE of exactly what went down
because they were very much in the thick of it.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. Yeah, buth truth, lies, and history
are all matters of technicality with them.
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CoffeeAnnan Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
65. So, when is Rice or her spokestoady going to say her statements
are no longer operative?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
71. Kick
Kick

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
74. Rice and Hadley also have a lot of 'splaining to do on Chalabi/Franklin.
This is from an NPR interview:

INSKEEP: Just the basics first here. The central allegation, that we know about, anyway, is that Larry Franklin passed secrets about Iran to Israel and that he was helped by a pro-Israel lobby group here in Washington. Where do things stand now?

KELLY: First, as you say, it appears this probe is broader and has been going on a lot longer than we originally thought. It turns out that the top national security advisers at the White House, Condoleezza Rice, her deputy Steve Hadley, were briefed more than two years ago about an FBI investigation into whether AIPAC--the American Israel Public Affairs Committee--was handing classified US documents to Israel. That would signal suspicions of a more extensive breach of security that the original, very specific allegations about Franklin.

Second factor to add to the mix: Much greater focus now on AIPAC itself. Originally, the initial reports were suggesting that, if anything, AIPAC was suspected of playing a conduit role. We now know that the FBI has, in fact, questioned two AIPAC officials, has copied one of their hard drives. Third thing: more questions about whether all of this is somehow linked to Ahmad Chalabi. This is, of course, the Iraqi politician once very influential in Washington, now fallen out of favor. The Washington Post today is reporting that the FBI is also investigating whether several--so not just Franklin but several Pentagon officials leaked classified information to Ahmad Chalabi.

INSKEEP: And Chalabi, of course, traveled--he was in Iraq and traveled repeatedly to Iran over the last years.

KELLY: Right. So that's the other link. Both of these things, both Larry Franklin and Ahmad Chalabi seem to have something to do with Iran.

more...

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/transcripts/2004/sep/040903.kelly.html
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. And...
Is there any connection at all between Chalabi and the so called "charities" that JM tipped off? I can't find any but as the same cast of characters keep popping up everywhere, and the fact that he is a con artist and embezzler from way back, and given that he and JM have practically been attached at the hips, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
75. but she tells the truth in spite of herself
"It is ludicrous to suggest the president of the United States went to war on the question of whether Saddam Hussein sought uranium in Africa."

This is true. And it is ludicrous to suggest since they damn well knew 'uranium in Africa' was bogus. The *reasons* he went to war were much more sinister.
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
76. kick
kick
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
94. Saw this elsewhere... If you haven't seen it, it's FANTASTIC
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 09:26 PM by Zorbuddha
The Prosecutor Never Rests
Whether Probing a Leak or Trying Terrorists, Patrick Fitzgerald Is Relentless
By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 2, 2005; Page C01

<snip>


The Untouchable

Fitzgerald frequently makes crime-fighting headlines in Chicago, where he took over the U.S. attorney's office just 10 days before 9/11. What's surprising is that he got the job at all. A New Yorker born and bred, Fitzgerald knew hardly a soul in Chicago, which was precisely the idea. Sen. Peter Fitzgerald (no relation) was looking for an outsider to battle the state's notoriously corrupt political apparatus.

The recently retired Illinois Republican tells a story about back in Al Capone's day, when Col. Robert McCormick, the imperious publisher of the Chicago Tribune, called FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and demanded that he send someone to Chicago who could not be bought.

Hoover sent the untouchable Eliot Ness.

Now, as then, the U.S. attorney's job has the gloss of patronage. The late Chicago mayor Richard J. Daley used to say the U.S. attorney in Chicago is one of the three most important people in the state, and Peter Fitzgerald said he wanted "someone who couldn't be influenced either to prosecute someone unfairly or protect someone from being prosecuted unjustly."

<snip>

President Richard Nixon kept an enemies list and waged an epic fight over the publication of the Pentagon Papers, settling only when the Supreme Court backed the right of The Washington Post and New York Times to publish. Not a few presidents have tried, usually fruitlessly, to identify leakers and punish the reporters all too glad to publish those leaks.

But Fitzgerald has ignored the old saw about arguing with someone who buys ink by the barrel. In both the Plame case and an unrelated terrorism investigation, he is trying to force Times reporters to reveal their confidential sources, a quinella not attempted in modern memory.

"In all his cases, Pat keeps the blinders on and goes forward to where the facts lead him," says David Kelley, the acting U.S. attorney in New York and former head of the Justice Department's 9/11 Task Force. "He is not influenced by anything except by those things that ought to influence him. I wouldn't call it zeal. I would call it courage."

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55560-2005Feb1?language=printer
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. a bit more--Straight shooters are what corrupt power brokers fear most.
Especially when they are prosecutors.

"I thought, 'He is the original Untouchable,' " Peter Fitzgerald says. "You could just see it in his eyes that he was a straight shooter. There were no levers that anyone had over him. He had no desire to become a partner in a private law firm. He has no interest in electoral politics. He wanted to be a prosecutor."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #97
106. Exactly.
I think that an important book is "Serpico." It gives one a clear understanding of what an honest person does to the comfort level in a corrupt system. Frank Serpico was a great American.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Was, and still is. You can interract with him via his blog.
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 09:49 AM by Zorbuddha

Frank Serpico

Official Frank Serpico Blog
Blog with the real Frank Serpico.... Official Frank Serpico Blog. Wednesday, April 13, 2005 ... Sincerely, Frank Serpico. Retired NYPD Detective ...frankserpico.blogspot.com

http://frankserpico.blogspot.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #97
112. Thank you for quoting that.
:7
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. I'm not worthy
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
98. Plot Thickens
<<<snip>>>
?Mr. Cooper's statements on Wednesday echoed his rationale for testifying last summer. "Mr. Libby," a statement issued by the magazine at the time said, "gave a personal waiver of confidentiality for Mr. Cooper to testify."

In an interview Friday, Mr. Libby's lawyer, Joseph A. Tate, disputed that.

"Mr. Libby signed a form," Mr. Tate said. "He gave it back to the F.B.I. End of story. There was no other assurance."

At most, Mr. Tate said in a separate interview last year, he had answered entreaties by lawyers for Mr. Cooper and other reporters by repeating what was in the waivers.

"I told them they had nothing to hide and could rely upon the waiver," Mr. Tate said last year.

Mr. Cooper was one of four reporters who testified in the investigation last summer. All of them said they were satisfied that Mr. Libby had given them earnest and uncoerced permission to talk.

"I personally called Libby about a waiver," Mr. Cooper said, "and he said that if it was O.K. with his lawyer it was O.K. with him." Cont…

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050711/ZNYT02/507110602
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #98
107. Interesting.
We are going to see a conflict between Karl Rove and Lewis "Scrotum" Libby.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
111. Great synopsis, as usual, H20 Man
I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that Wilson was sent to Niger for the express purpose of setting up the opportunity to out his wife.

It may be a stretch to assume, yet it is a plausible assumption, that those who know Wilson's integrity of character would also know that he might feel compelled to tell the truth when the drumbeats of war became too loud. Then those who placed him in that untenable position could claim, "But he only went there because of his wife." IOW, they preemptorily set up their defense against his accusations if he wouldn't play ball on their team.

Wilson was not chosen by Plame, his wife, but Wilson was chosen specifically because his wife is Plame. How many times did Cheney visit the CIA and where do those visits fall in relation to Wilson's appointment to investigate the forged documents? Cheney (the mastermind) and Rove must have been rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of damaging the tracking of WMD and discrediting Wilson in one fell swoop.

It almost worked. It might yet work. I hope the American public is not that stupid. Someone interfered in our line of protection against WMD. I guess that's why Kerry kept insisting our number 1 threat was nuclear proliferation. That was his coded message, unintentional or intentional, of saying that the current administration is the number 1 threat to our national security.


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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #111
115. Lots of us have speculated about this particular theory
and you are probably right. But the thing is Wilson was the perfect person to go to Niger because of his background. And here it is:

Wilson was a member of the U.S. Diplomatic Service from 1976 until 1998. His early assignments included Niamey, Niger, 1976-1978; Lome, Togo, 1978-79; the State Department Bureau of African Affairs, 1979-1981; and Pretoria, South Africa, 1981-1982.

In 1982, he was appointed Deputy Chief of Mission in Bujumbura, Burundi. In 1985-1986, he served in the offices of Senator Albert Gore and the House Majority Whip, Representative Thomas Foley, as an American Political Science Association Congressional Fellow. He was Deputy Chief of Mission in Brazzaville, Congo, 1986-88, prior to his assignment to Baghdad.

He was ambassador to Iraq before the Gulf War, and was the last diplomat to meet with Saddam before the war in 1991. He was also Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for African Affairs at the National Security Council from June 1997 until July 1998.

I got the impression early on that he was sent to Niger specifically because of his background. Who could have been better qualified for the assignment? It was almost as if they really expected to find that Saddam DID want to buy uranium from Niger. Then when Wilson didn't support their claims, they got pissed and stayed with their story anyway so they could declare war on Iraq. When he wrote his article "What I Didn't Find in Africa" they stupidly decided to out his wife as political revenge.

Now I know that H2o believes your theory too. But without specific knowledge of what Valerie was working on, how can we really know that?

I may be rehashing stuff that has been gone over before on Plame threads, but can H2O or Robert Paulsen please explain to me exactly why they think Wilson was used as a way of stopping Valerie's operation?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. I do not think that Wilson
was sent with any thought that it could be "used" later by anyone. The facts are simple: neither the White House or Valerie picked Wilson. His was picked due to his background and previous services, and he was picked by people who were simply interested in finding out if there was any truth to the documents.

That said, when Wilson began telling people in the government -- and then in his very public op-ed in the NYT -- that there was no truth to the theory that Saddam was attempting to get WMD components from Niger, the White House responded by exposing Plame. And, as noted by Klein in the infamous TIME article, Plame had been actively involved in an investigation into the possible sale of WMD components when her identity became public. This derailed the investigation she was involved in.

However, I do not think that there is any chance that when the CIA sent Wilson, anyone had planned to use him to expose Plame. I think there is zero chance of this being true.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #116
117. That theory makes sense to me too
It seems a little too Machiavellian to suppose it was an elaborate plot against Plame from the very beginning. I know Rove is the master manipulator but I don't think even he could come up with as grand a scheme as that one.

I think the * administration likes to exact revenge against anyone who opposes them, and in taking their revenge against Wilson they -- well, they screwed up. They had information that was never supposed to be made public about a covert agent. Then they exposed her. In their rush to punish Wilson they screwed themselves -- they committed a crime. Whoops!

It is the very nature of how and why they did this that makes me worry that Rove will get off scott free. He wouldn't, I think, knowingly make this large a blunder. So if he didn't knowingly do it, he can use that as an excuse.

The only good thing is that if the public knows how this administration operates they are going to start waking up to how evil * really is.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #117
120.  "I hope the American public is not that stupid."
I hope the people on that GJ are not as stupid as a large portion of the Amerikan public. They are the ones that will vote to indicte certain people or not.

btw thank Waterman. I have read most of the Plame posts of the past. Iran Contra folk skated, esp. Raygun and Poppy Bush.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. Oh, they did.
The Iran-Contra criminals got off. And that's why we are dealing with many of the same people, pushing the same agenda, using the same tactics, today.

Due to a house that is filled with children from neighboring area, and to some thunder storms, I'm already two essays back on GD. I'll post one this morning. But I think that the Iran-Contra scandals -- and it is important that those who are learning about it recognize it was many scandals, packaged as one -- need to be held under the glare of publicity.
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