Hey Kerry: The middle class will be paying back that "cut" in state taxes

[SweetZombieJesus]

If you give them an idiotic federal tax "cut", that takes money away from SERVICES, and taxes OTHER than federal income taxes get RAISED.

IT'S A FUCKING SERVICES CUT. If this is your only "ammo" against Dean, don't expect to stay afloat.

I know he's trying to strike a pose as a champion of the childed middle class, but he's doing it by lying through his teeth to them about the realities of Bush's tax cut.

Before, I just took issue with Kerry's war vote. Now I've got another reason to be disappointed in him. Thanks John, but I'm not buying this one either.

[revcarol]

1. Yup.

Right again.

[SweetZombieJesus]

3. It's just Kerry jockeying to what he thinks the mushy middle will like

There are MILLIONS of people out there without jobs because of Bush's first round of "tax cuts", and Kerry's still pushing this crap wherein repealing a one time tax cut is "raising taxes". It's really pathetic, and I guess I expected just a wee bit better from him. This kind of mindless embrace of the "free money" myth is something I'd expect from Lieberman.

I'll give Kerry props on his war service and when he was a lawyer trying to get the goods on the BFEE, but this champion of the middle class schtick is done much more convincingly by Edwards, and with less insulting of our collective intelligence.

[Cha]

27. From what I hear around here about Kerry...I would have

"expected better from him", too! It will Fall apart because it is pandering a Lie!

[Fabio]

7. Actually wrong.

John Kerry's economic plan contains the same amount of state relief as deans, as well as fully funding education and their respective health care initiatives (which are very similar). John Kerry's plan would thus do EVERYTHING Howard Dean's plan would do in terms of lowering the burden of the middle class at a state level PLUS provide them fiscal relief.

The difference in the plans lie in the fact that Howard Dean wants to balance the budget at current revenue levels. John Kerry wants to halve it, knowing that leaving stimulus in place for the middle class is more likely to create more tax revenue.

[SweetZombieJesus]

12. So repealing just the upper class tax cuts fixes everything?

I call bullshit, simply based on the fact that it sounds entirely too good to be true. I'm no economist, but when Nobel Prize winning economists are decrying ALL of the tax cuts as a bad idea, I'm inclined to believe that rather than Kerry's simplistic solution of "repeal just the rich's tax cuts".

Kerry's position is just an attempt to paint Dean as a "Mondale" with the mushy middle. I respect the guy who speaks to what the tax cuts really are and tells a hard truth much more than the guy who won't level with those Americans who don't know what a Trojan Horse policy it was yet.

Say it with me kids: IT'S A SERVICES CUT.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangha]

22. Again

Though you chose to misportray Kerry's plan as simply "repeal the upper class tax cuts", you were provided with more detail than that. There was mention of state aid, funds for health care and education, and leaving some of the deficit as a stimulant for the economy. Why you chose to leave out those details is hard to figure out.

It couldnt be because you WANTED to misportray Kerry's position? Nah, couldn't be.

I may not be civil, but at least I'm not twisting the facts. There's nothing "civil" about misportraying what someone else said.

[SweetZombieJesus]

26. Twisting the facts? Where did I say it was an unequivocal fact?

This whole thread hinges on how I see Kerry's position, not whether my interpretation of it is a fact or not. You are the one who brought this hostility into this thread, not me. If you want to disagree with my interpretation of it, that's fine, but talking down to me and trying to paint me as some sort of mindless Kerry attacker who's spinning facts is your problem, not mine.

I don't feel I have to defend my motives to you, as they're fairly clear to anyone who isn't going into this thread already in "flame mode". If you disagree with me, fine, say so, but if you're not willing to give me a modicum of civility and just engage in thinly veiled personal attacks, I'll just cut my losses and put you on ignore. To tell the truth, I'm pretty sure I had you on ignore in the first place, and now I'm a little confused. Are you the same person as sangh0, or is that some sort of copycat?

[sangha]

29. So what you said wasn't fact?

You misportrayed Kerry's plan (and a posters post) as being merely "repeal upper class tax cuts" and your defense is that that's "how I see Kerry's position"

Are you serious? Are the facts concerning what Kerry's plan actually says irrelevant? Whether or not you are right or wrong is unimportant and what counts is what you think is right?

If you want to disagree with my interpretation of it

It's not a question of interpretation - It's a question of fact. You claimed that Kerry's plan is merely "repeal upper class tax cuts". That's just not true. Is your opinion the only relevant truth? Don't the facts count for something?

trying to paint me as some sort of mindless Kerry attacker who's spinning facts is your problem, not mine.

You're the one who said "This whole thread hinges on how I see Kerry's position, not whether my interpretation of it is a fact or not". Maybe you're not "spinning" the facts, but you are certainly not letting the facts have any effect on you.

[sangha]

25. And if you're genuinely concerned about civility

I'd suggest you refrain from responding to another's post by calling it "bullshit"

Or is that your idea of civility?

[Cha]

28. Oh you're just speaking logic here but I can tell the usual suspects

aren't buying it!!

[paulk]

30. could you please link to the Nobel Prize winning economists

who are decrying ALL of the tax cuts as a bad idea?

Seriously, I'd like to see it - it would definately influence my feelings on this issue.

[Fabio]

36. If you dont want to debate...

the merits of Dean's versus Kerry's plan on an economic basis, and you point to phantom Nobel Prize winning economists as sources allowing you to make these claims, i'd like to see some links.

I am genuinely confused and worried that basic economic principles are thrown around this board.

I will say it again...John Kerry and Howard Dean have a VERY similar domestic spending agenda...real increases in services and benefits. John Kerry executes his agenda within the framework of a deficit reduction package that seeks to half the current $4-500 billion deficit. Howard Dean tackles his agenda within the framework of a deficit elimination package. The difference between reduction and elimination is your middle class tax cut.

[AP]

39. The services will be cut if we have a shrinking economy because middle

class is being drowned in regressive taxation.

[Metrix]

2. Middle Class Tax Share Set to Rise

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10323-2003Jun3?language=printer

"Three successive tax cuts pushed by President Bush will leave middle-income taxpayers paying a greater share of all federal taxes by the end of the decade, according to new analyses of the Bush administration's tax policies."

Rolling back tax cuts for the highest bracket, and closing some corporate tax loopholes, which Kerry also mentioned, would have the most impact. Someone has to have money to buy things in order to get out of recession.

[SweetZombieJesus]

5. Just buying a pair of Nikes doesn't get us out of the recession

An extra 300 dollars doesn't last long in a middle class family when property taxes, sales taxes, and various other sundry taxes are going up because federal income taxes went down to starve services of funding. Kerry is being dishonest as to the real reason behind those tax cuts, and as such, he's lowering the standard of the discourse to the level the wingers want it on. They WANT people to believe this tax cut is a good thing. It's not by any stretch of the imagination.

Sharpton had an excellent point about the difference between having extra money for impulse items and having to pay less property taxes or having lower interest rates. These are the things that ultimately mark the end of a recession, not just people having a little extra money to spend at the fucking mall.

Overall, our candidates did well, but I'm sick of politicians from both parties being intellectually dishonest about simple economic concepts like this. Dumbing things down is how we got a fucking Chimp for a President in the first place.

[Metrix]

13. I don't think we disagree that much

I thought Sharpton made a good point. I just don't see much justification for the attack on Kerry over this. Being in favor of a strong middle class is not the same as sanctioning how Bush got away with selling his tax cuts. I just would rather focus on the tax cuts for the rich, and this is coming from someone whose family was taxed at the TOP estate tax rate. Even so, I am not in favor of eliminating the estate tax. (I would probably argue that it is unfair that my family and Bill Gates' family are whacked for the same percentage, but that's another story.)

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

33. if the top end of the tax cuts were rescinded -

wouldn't that eliminate the need to raise property taxes, sales taxes, and various other sundry taxes???

It would certainly change the equation, would it not? One does affect the other, doesn't it? That seems to be a fairly simple economic concept.

One of the simpler economic concepts I remember reading about somewhere is that targeted tax cuts in a recession can be a good thing. So I don't understand your objections to what would amount to being a targeted tax cut. How would this be a bad thing? (Other than the fact the Kerry supports it.)

[AP]

40. Transferring wealth to middle class = transferring political power & ...

...options. That 2000 bucks means options and political power if its spent, saved, invested, used as a safety net so you can take a professional chance.

Folks, this is too obvious. This is what being a democrat is all about. I'm appalled by people who consider themselves Democrats but argue in favor of Dean on this issue.

[blm]

42. You nailed that oddity. It's a Democratic staple

that they just aren't getting because I think many of them are new to politics and are winging it with Dean. Anything Dean says is right and any Democratic principle must be kicked to the curb if Dean says so. Sheesh.

I guess they are all for deregulating electricity, too, because Dean is for it. They can join Bush, Cheney and Ken Lay on that one.

[sangh0]

44. They don't care about the facts

See post #26:

This whole thread hinges on how I see Kerry's position, not whether my interpretation of it is a fact or not.

I am astounded!!

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. i think you're being a little harsh

At least some of those middle class tax cuts are probably child-based, and I'm sure they could be used by people making $40,000 a year.

I'd rather have most of the tax cut repealed than all of it.

[SweetZombieJesus]

8. Simple question: Did you get money back?

If you did, I have to suspect some bias in your opinion on this.

I know a lot of middle class families. I come from a middle class family. Maybe half of them got this "tax cut", and what little they got back evaporated pretty quickly. You might be able to buy a new water heater for your home, but your mortgage rate is still going to climb, your property taxes will go up, and that little bit of money you got back will pretty much be negated.

Then your kid gets sick, but hey, it's not life-threatening, so your Medicare will no longer reimburse you. There's been cuts in their funding, you see.

Or better yet, it's been privatized, and you can't even afford a god damn aspirin.

See where I'm going with this yet? These tax cuts are a fucking sham. What Dean or Gephardt are proposing isn't taking more of your money away, they're restoring the services Bush has cut.

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. no, I didn't

I'm 25 and single and probably not receiving any tax cut anytime soon.

But I still think middle class families with kids should get some money back.

[blm]

10. Magic...

you can copy my post. SZJ has me on ignore.

[blindpig]

47. families with kids

I know this is harsh, but on a grossly overpopulated planet we don't need to encourage/reward breeding with cash rewards. other means of support are available. Is it not enough that we nonbreeders support the education of our neighbors childern?(property taxes around here). be assured, i am not a liberitarian(sp) & realise the need to contribute to the social good, but the long range good is a greatly reduced human population. ,

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. Yep those "$400" tax "rebates" helped so much!

My son who survives on $45,000 per year said and I quote, " What does that do for me?" He is more concerned by the amount his property taxes are going up and the fact that his daughter's school is lacking funding that is badly needed. He would rather the Government keep his $400 "rebate", and fund public schools and not raise his property taxes along with every other tax he has to pay.

[AP]

41. multiply 400 by the number of middle class taxpayers (20 million)

and that's political power.

[blm]

6. Kerry: Close corporate loopholes to pay middle class taxcut.

In front of a closed MCI Worldcom office in Iowa, Kerry promised to repeal the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans but he believes that we should keep the middle class tax cuts that Democrats fought for in 2001 and 2003. He strongly disagrees with Democrats who want to repeal these tax cuts, which would cost many middle-class families with two children nearly $2,000.
<>
John Kerry said, “I believe we should repeal President Bush’s special tax breaks that go to the wealthiest Americans. I believe we should end corporate welfare as we know it and tax giveaways to special interests. But I do not believe we should abolish tax cuts for middle class families – whether it’s the child tax credit or the elimination of the marriage penalty. In fact, I believe we should give middle class families a tax cut, not a tax increase. We can cut corporate tax loopholes to pay for middle class tax cuts.”

“Putting real money into the pockets of the hard working middle class is true to our principles as Democrats – and right for the American economy. Dishonest companies won’t be allowed to dodge their taxes through shady practices. And in a Kerry Administration, companies like WorldCom certainly won’t be rewarded with government contracts. We need to return to the basic American principles that have always built our economic future,” said Kerry.

WorldCom and other corporate scandals have made life more difficult for middle-class families. Because of WorldCom’s mismanagement and the corruption of its executives, Americans have lost jobs, lost savings, lost hope. Iowans lost more than $2 billion in their 401K’s from the corruption at WorldCom and other such scandal-ridden corporations.

But despite WorldCom’s status as a corporate criminal, the Bush Administration has been tripping over itself to provide the company more government contracts. WorldCom received $122 million in contracts in 2000 when George Bush was elected – to $772 million today. That’s an increase of more than 600 percent.
<>
As President, Kerry will crack down on dishonest companies and close corporate tax loopholes in order to pay for tax relief to the middle class.
John Kerry will fund strong budgets and assure strong enforcement by the SEC. He believes that American companies should not be allowed to set up virtual headquarters in foreign countries that are hardly more than mailboxes just to avoid paying U.S. taxes.

A recent Joint Committee on Taxation report found that Enron claimed a $2.3 billion in profit between 1996 and 1999 in reports to its investors, while reporting a $3 billion tax loss to the IRS. John Kerry believes corporations should have to account these kinds of disparities.

The Federal government should not give lucrative contracts to companies that have a record of accounting fraud – like WorldCom – or are moving offshore.
Executives should not be walking away with millions of dollars in salaries and benefits while their workers are laid off their companies are defaulting on loans. Kerry would tighten the laws that allow corporations to take advantage of tax deductions for performance based executive pay – even when executives do nothing to improve productivity.

[sfecap]

14. Interesting that Kerry should mention Enron...

Kenneth Lay's Kerry Connection

By Lloyd Grove
Friday, June 27, 2003; Page C03


Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry regularly scorches the management of Enron, the scandal-ridden, bankrupt energy company founded by Kenneth Lay.



Some representative attacks:

• Feb. 16, 2002: "No worker in America should be robbed of years of labor by unconscionable personal greed. . . . One of my colleagues compared Enron executives to the Corleone family. Well, I think that's insulting to the Corleones."

• Feb. 9, 2003: "The president calls his energy plan 'balanced.' And I suppose it is, if balanced means what it did for the books at Enron and WorldCom."

• June 5: "It is time we had a president who is on the side of the many, not the few. . . . That means investing in people; it means restoring fiscal discipline, and it means that when an Enron bilks the retirement savings of ordinary investors and shatters consumer confidence, those greedy few at the top are going to go to jail."

Yesterday, self-styled muckraker Bernardo Issel of NonprofitWatch.org told us that the much-maligned Lay has been a longtime member of the board of trustees of the Heinz Center, an environmental group founded by the candidate's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. She's the group's vice chairman, and Lay left the small board earlier this year after serving for nearly a decade.

Issel calls this situation "hypocrisy." We'll settle for "irony."

(more)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A37316-2003Jun26¬Found=true

http://www.nonprofitwatch.org/heinz/kerryhypocrisy.html

[blm]

18. So...alot of crooked richbots try to get on charity boards.

You want to blame Teresa for not knowing that Lay was cooking his books? Do you know that Ann Richards has been involved with that same crowd through boards and associations? Does that make her a traitor?

Did Dean and Cheney's energy buddies and donors urge Yucca Mt. to be chosen as the nuclear waste deposit?

[Starpass]

11. Here's the problem now that the horse is out of the barn

(and no I didn't get a dime back in taxes). When all these taxes were proposed the public kept saying that they didn't want them because they could see the trouble it would cause---they said they would rather pay taxes and clear up our fiscal mess, etc. Then the taxes came in. Could give a fuck less about the big money people and their obscene rakeoff BUT..here's the problem. Those same people who intelligently objected did get money back (I'm talking middle class people). Now the shoe just shifted to the other foot.....baby, they don't want to give it back. Perhaps even saying "screw it; I'll take mine since the rich aren't running to give it back). Thus the candidate, i.e. Dean, who says 'sacrifice with me' will be killed by Bush. If Dean sticks to that position Bush has two biggies to kill him with: 1) he can't protect you like me, the great Commander in Chief because he is a panty waste anti-war pinko (you know how these slime spin things) and 2) kiss your money bah-bye that I gave you. And don't be stupid enough to think that that won't sell in Amureka. Dean is on the politically stupid side of this one.

[SweetZombieJesus]

15. "Dean is on the politically stupid side of this one"

The same could be said of his anti-war stance since early on in his candidacy, and he hasn't exactly tanked, has he?

[sangha]

17. Straw man

I don't think there have been many people who thought his anti-war stance was a stupid one. IMO, most people here realized what a disaster it was going to turn into.

[SweetZombieJesus]

20. How is that a straw man?

I'm just pointing out that the opinions of the masses change with time, and his position now could become more popular in the future.

Maybe if you were a little less hostile, you'd have gotten where I was going with that comment.

[sangha]

24. Why it's a straw man

Because no one brought up anyone's claim about Dean's position on the Iraq invasion and it's effect on his electability.

Furthermore, even if people had said that, it doesn't mean that this issue won't sink him. Just because one issue didn't hurt him, that doesn't mean another issue won't.

I'm just pointing out that the opinions of the masses change with time, and his position now could become more popular in the future.

That's not what you said. Basically, you argued that because people were wrong to say that Iraq would hurt Dean, they are also wrong when they say taxes will hurt Dean.

Maybe if you were a little less hostile, you'd have gotten where I was going with that comment.

Even if we were friends, freindship doesn't come with the ability to read minds. I don't read minds so I went by what you said. You said nothing about people changing their minds.

But if your going to argue that people will be changing their minds on taxes, all I'll say is "Good luck with that" Prior experience gives little reason to think that's going to happen.

[Starpass]

23. Not with the primary voters, honey, and that's what you guys can't

get through your heads. The war and the "give me back da' money" will make "tank" look like an upbeat evaluation. The masses in America don't live in this little world of the primaries and that's what has killed many a parties quest for the WH----they give the people something that doesn't sell outside the 'clan'.

[sandnsea]

31. Read the plan

Putting money back into states and local communities is what he's planning to do with a portion of the tax cuts for the wealthy. So he *is* planning to help states get those services back which will also provide jobs; AND workers will keep their child tax credit and 10% tax bracket so the economy won't take another hit while he's trying to improve it. For the situation we're in right now, his overall economic plan is the best one. We can't hit working families AGAIN, they've suffered too much under Bush.

[blm]

34. he can't see the plan,

cuz he has me on ignore. You are welcome to repost it and share it with him.

[sangh0]

43. He doesn't care about the plan or the facts

See his post #26:

This whole thread hinges on how I see Kerry's position, not whether my interpretation of it is a fact or not.

[SEAburb]

32. Dean's plan will kill the recovery, by sucking the fuel out of it

Raising taxes on middle class during a economic down turn is the worst thing to do. The middle class is pumping the millions in tax breaks back into the economy.

Kerry is right on this issue, just like he is on most issues.

[AP]

38. economy wont improve unless load is lightened on middle class and rich

start pulling their weight.

[sam sarrha]

35. the cut in state taxes will have to be met with local county/city taxes,

Bush cut state taxes before he left Texas, our property taxes are 1/2 what we pay on the mortgage each month. there are service cuts everywhere, hardly any police, people run red lights at will, 15% of cars have insurance... it is slaughter on the highways, hit and runs on on pedestrians/cyclists. the city in which a death penalty case is tried pays the costs, $3,000,000 for a cheap one...etc etc

[AP]

49. And they can start collecting tax progressively too. Do you know that

CA is the most progressive state in terms of state taxes and it's still regressive? I believe the bottom quintile pays a de facto rate of 9% and the top quintile pays 6%.

Also, with all the breaks given to businesses these day, when you hear that property taxes go up, it's only the middle class paying them.

So, while we're fighting for progressivity on a Federal level (which is were the middle class pays most of their taxes), we should be fighting for progressivity on state and local levels too.

To give up the fight where it makes the biggest impact -- on the federal level -- because we've conceded defeat on the state and local level is STUPID. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Democrat.

[AP]

37. Kerry is so right about this. We have a tax code as regressive as it was

in 1928.

Kerry is so right that it needs to be made more progressive.

[flpoljunkie]

45. Dean's Rx for middle class..take medicine of no federal tax relief...

Taking away the middle class tax cut will not change the fact that the states have their own problems and have raised taxes in an attempt to balance their budgets--something Dubya is not required to do!

Taking away the middle class tax cut will only make matters far worse for middle class families as they try to stay afloat in in the Bushco economy!

:kick:

[flpoljunkie]

46. Kick!

:kick:

[AP]

48. Krugman (who barely talks about progressive taxation and the distribution

of the income tax burden) says that even the Democrats who say they'll recover ALL the tax cuts are only half way between Bush's position and reality. He said that the US is bringing in 25% less than what they spend. The tax cuts (most of which went to the richest) only make up 15% of that differenc. He says you have to get another 10% even if you take back all the tax cuts.

He says that if America taxed its citizens half as much as Canada taxes its citizens, we'd close the gap completely.

But the think that Krugman doesn't really talk about is how to distribute the income tax burden. When you're taxing Americans as regressively as we did before the Great Depression, you have got to fix that -- you have to distribute the tax burden fairly.

So the answer to all the problems isn't going to be lets go back to the Clinton years (and dont' forget that wealth distribution is even more inequitable today compared to three years ago). The answer is going to have to include some talk about spreading the burdens.

Kerry is way closer to addressing the apportionment of the burdends than Dean (and Edwards is the closest, in my opinion).