Boy are we screwed

[salin]

If stopping the tax cuts is political suicide (as some contend),

But 500Billion+ deficits are going to make our economy collapse (think old soviet union),

Then we might as well just make sure that we have a place for a garden because the next Depression is around the corner - regardless of who is elected.

Don't folks get the economic reality that bush has created?

Cutting spending isn't enough.

Cutting a few favored taxes isn't enough.

Cutting nonessential military - isn't pragmatic in a war - but even if it was... it isn't enough.

We are getting warning letters from the IMF. What is next they suggest we take austerity measures?

No one likes talking taxes. But if you think that we are going to get out of this - and not have a sever long lasting recession - or worse a depression - without reversing tax cuts - and not just those who are for someone of a different tax bracket than you - then you do not understand the severity of what BUSH has done to this economy.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

1. Good news and bad news

The bad news: The only way people will really understand how fucked the Bush economic "plan" is, is if more jobs are lost

The good news: It will happen

OK, so I lied, it's just bad news.

[calimary]

17. This is probably just part of the pattern for bush.

He gets into a company. During his tenure and because of his bad management and general idiocy, the company falters and goes belly-up. So he phones Daddy to bail him out and Daddy phones his wealthy cronies to bail out his boy and install him in another nice company. Then, IT, TOO, goes belly-up, and junior calls Daddy again and secures another gold-plated rescue.

So, having come to this point now, force of habit would lead him to assume it doesn't really matter if he fucks it up again. Once again, he just phones Daddy and gets a bail out. It's just another bush-boy blunder, right?

Well, this time, junior has hit his head up against the Peter Principle. He's risen to (although, in my opinion BEYOND) his level of incompetence. And the magnitude of this fuck-up is just too big for ANYBODY to bail him out. Actually, the size of this bailout would require the treasury and soldiers of a whole truckload of COUNTRIES, none of which is breaking any land speed records rushing to his aid. But that's how big the fuck-up is, this time. It would take the combined efforts of MANY countries to fix this one. Not just a handful of captains of industry or buddies from the country club. Not if all the Skull & Bonesmen from ALL TIME were to reincarnate and pitch in together. NOTHING will fix a fuck-up this big. But it's been junior's pattern throughout his life, and he probably assumes it's no big deal, just gotta call Daddy again to fix it for him. One of these days, maybe he'll wake up, too.

Yeah, right.

[Eloriel]

26. Close, but not nearly sinister enough

Junior doesn't just run companies into the ground out of incompetence, the plan is just like Enron's -- to run them into the ground and steal investors' money in the process, or accrue other benefits perhaps (like the TX Rangers).

In fact, it's a Bush Family tradition. Think S&L, and some of Jeb's adventures, and many more. Carlyle pulled this same scam with United Defense, the company that had that tank no one wanted just before the war. They did an IPO with United Defense in December 2001, sold a lot of stock because of the pending wars, and then eventually killed the Defense contract for the tank, having made tons of money on its stock, no doubt. (Crusader, wasn't that the name of it?) I'd LOVE to see how much Carlyle insiders made on United Defense stock.

Oh, and this is what they're doing with the U.S. Treasury as well -- bleeding it dry and getting public money into their private hands. I've heard that Hitler "raided the Treasury," and while I don't know the details, with the Bush Mafia, they treat the Treasury as if its their own private bank account.

Eloriel

[Pastiche423]

28. Was that the one out of

Oklahoma?

[NNN0LHI]

2. Repealing the tax cut for the top 1% of earners saves $400 Billion dollars

Sounds like a good place to start.

Don

[Pastiche423]

22. Another good place

would be in the Caymans and Swiss accounts that left this country through loopholes, and stolen from citizens.

[bleedingheart]

3. They are going to drown the social programs in the bathtub

remember that was the plan... and hopefully we can staunch the bloodflow before the economy goes kaputt.

[whathappened]

4. i hate paying taxes to

but in todays world , we are covering almost everybodys asses that walk the face of this earth , we feed alot of people with the food that is grown from this country for almost nothng , we give weapons to third world countrys for almost nothing , now who pays for all of this , we do , and how can we give tax cuts and pay these costs , if we are going to be the leaders of this world as we know it , we need to pay the taxes and i mean the ones who are benifiting the most off this give away program we have going should be the first in line to give there money freely , so lets tax the shit out of these corperations who have sold our jobs down the stream , and make them pay all the law of this land can handle ,

[G_j]

14. give away program?

yea, the give away program is to corporations, the military industrial complex etc. etc.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. It's sort of catch 22

People need to be able to live within reasonable comfort and it is more difficult to do so even with 2 incomes. If one lives in an area where there are jobs then housing is more expensive.

People are biting their nose to spite their face, however. When that trauma center closes just pray you aren't next in line for an auto accident..insured or not...if your injuries are severe enough that slip of paper you paid for won't help you to survive...a trauma center will.

And yes. I suspect it was the Bushies plan all along to impose austerity measures on the US ala Argentina...and PRIVATIZE MORE including water as Argentina did.

This is why Cheney thinks conservation is for sissies...he knows people consume less when they have less money without infringing on those who can afford gas, water and electricity no matter how high the costs go.

[salin]

7. our local ambulance service

has been in the red for a few years. Seriously. The local governments (city and county) have traditionally budgeted very little for the service - it came out of the (public) hospital. Which can't afford it. The writing is on the wall - with no change - and if we stay in a "we can't talk about taxes" climate and an "all taxes are evil thus all government spending is evil" environment... then in a few years I bet ambulance service will only be available to the insured. And only the insured who have a high enough payout for the service.

Imagine - you have just had a stroke and can barely breathe - you need an ambulance - you don't have the right insurance (or worse none). Too bad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Read this thread and you can get some of the mindset

even here on DU that thinks it's all about CUTTING and waste rather than taking on the real beast THEFT:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=372333

[alcuno]

6. Americans never thought the tax cuts would benefit them

In poll after poll, Americans were NOT clammoring for a tax cut. While they thought they could benefit the economy, they didn't think that they themselves would benefit.

So why would they care if there is no stimulative effect and they are repealed?

http://www.pollingreport.com/budget.htm

[AndyTiedye]

9. Remember that Cartoon that Got Pulled

that showed shrub piloting an airplane into a pair of towers
that were labeled "Social Programs"?

It actually came out quite soon after 9/11.

It was only in the early editions before the hammer came down.
(Did anybody scan it???)

I'm sure the cartoonist is down in gitmo somwehere now.

[Ouabache]

16. Here's the cartoon you speak about, Andy

enjoy, yes I saved it:



hosting courtesy of one of our own innovative DUers...

[Flying_Pig]

10. So few people care, or know anything about economics, its a

wonder we haven't gone down the tubes already. Look at the debt the American public is carrying!! Here we are in a recession, and they're out taking on still more debt, buying houses and cars in record numbers. Of course the government are the ones encouraging this spending, in an effort to boost the economy. Regardless, its all a house of cards. Something like 50% of the population is only one or two paychecks away from bankruptsy. That says it all.

The key, as you've pointed out, is repeal of the tax cuts. Personally though, I feel that lower and lower-middle income people should retain, and/or, be granted tax cuts, while taxes on the wealthy and corporations should rise dramatically. Between all of the corporate welfare the Republcians, and some Democrats, hand out, coupled with their tax breaks, corporations and the wealthy are getting a free ride in this country, especially when compared to other industrial nations. That's what happens in a fascist oligarchy.

[FDRrocks]

11. and out of the ashes!

FDR's reanimated head in a jar!

I gotta stop watching TV, I almost got my hopes up.

I don't think were going to hit a depression. But our prosperity is zero to null anymore. All of our countries money is now in the pockets of the friends of Bush and circulating around the middle east in the form of radioactive dust.

I might not have kids due to this...

[Donna Zen]

12. Krugman

The other night of Charlie Rose, K explained that we are currently running a budget that is 20% of GNP while collecting 16% of GNP in taxes. With foreign banks buying up most of that debt, they will soon be in a position to demand higher interest's rates. When that happens, and Krugman says it will if we continue with the same policies, we go over the Argentina cliff.

[FDRrocks]

13. I heard something about a massive flight

of our capital to China, through various conduits.

That made my eyebrows rise... almost past my hairline!

[charlie]

15. You betcha

And for whatever perverse reason, Bush's Treasury Secretary Snow has been talking down the dollar, specifically against the yen and yuan. In the past couple of days, I've watched the dollar depreciate close to 4 percent vs the yen.

Fire up the presses, Dubya's gonna print up the money we need to pay for everything!

It's like they're doing everything they can to kill the dollar's status as the baseline currency.

My worst nightmare is that the Republicans don't mind if the next President or Congress is Democratic -- they're gonna get Carterized by circumstances beyond their control.

[salin]

19. Not coincidental

bushetal have been trying to convince China to strengthen the yuan compared to the dollar. They want this to try to mitigate the trade deficit. From all I have read it could work - but is dangerous - like walking a fine wire as a tightrope walker - one side is success... the other is massive selloffs of US treasuries and the inability to get investors in newly issued ones. In that case the health of the US economy is suddenly somewhat dependent on.. foreign investors????

[charlie]

24. There's orderly ways to do it

and there's Dubya's way, which is to get the Treasury Secretary to suddenly go from a strong dollar position, to calling for letting the market find its "natural" place. There's going to be wild swings in the relative values of currencies as the Chimp drives the dollar down and foreign bondholders try to preserve the value of their US debt holdings (and their export businesses). Which makes the currency market more attractive to speculators, which makes for wilder swings....

Meanwhile, there's a big hole between the time that the prices of our consumer staples escalate and the window of opportunity for American businesses to take advantage of the depreciated dollar to create profitable export goods and jobs. At a time when employment is down, it makes no f*cking sense to gin up inflation rapidly and shrink American paychecks and boost loan defaults. I have no idea why he's doing this, it stands a good chance of torpedoing his election prospects, unless he really doesn't want a second term to begin with.

[salin]

25. that last statement presumes

that he knows what he is doing. He is intellectually lazy, and has publically said that policy bores him. A loyal ideologue feeds the idea - if it can be spun the rightway to fit with Rove's plans - it becomes the policy. Bush never has to understand a thing. Just read his cue cards and get back to the back slapping fundraising - which seems to be about the only part of the job he enjoys.

[ewagner]

31. This is the troubling part

At a time when employment is down, it makes no f*cking sense to gin up inflation rapidly and shrink American paychecks and boost loan defaults.

It makes no sense.....unless........

it's the unless that I'm trying to figure out!

[lostnfound]

32. And foreign investment in America is down 90% ?!?!

in the last couple of years, according to the congressman from Seattle on Lou Dobbs tonight.

(PS: The segment was all about exports of jobs overseas; and even Dobbs emphasized the importance of preventing American workers from being relegated to slave wages...The media is starting to show signs of cracking -- away from the party line.)

[KG]

18. no matter how bad you think it is - it's actually worse

according to krugman, we are totally screwed unless we do something radical - and soon.

[charlie]

20. It's worse

according to me. We're in for a rough ride, Dem prez or no Dem prez. It's plain to see that the Republican hordes are willing to cut their own throats and burn the country down to vindicate their worldview. Vindication will never come of course, but as long as they've got someone remotely to their left to demonize as the roadblock to Nirvana, jihad goes forward. Nevermind that they've got all the marbles, it's the siege mentality that gives them reason to get up in the morning. We're fucked.

[Beetwasher]

21. Not necessary to fuck the lower and middle class

There is a way to fix the economy, and taxes WILL have to go up on the upper 1-5% and there WILL have to be a crackdown on corporations and offshore tax havens and there WILL have to be a public works program, but the middle and lower classes do NOT have to be hit w/ increases to do it if you have people who want to do the RIGHT thing making decsions and forming policy.

[Andy_Stephenson]

23. Buy Gold

Protect your family...

[lostnfound]

33. Yeah but gold is so unethical --

it's mined in a horrible inhuman way, people treated like pack animals, exposed to dangerous conditions. It's hard to figure out what to invest in right now that's not totally unethical.

[Oracle]

27. And the republican owned corporate media is selling us down the river...

aren't they the cute ones with their twin summer homes and their "Hummers" for play and relaxation, ignoring the obvious...Bush & Rove can never, never come out of this without the media's willing help and pushing FEAR, a real terrorist threat, most likely some fucking war will shoot his poll numbers to 68%, fucking gullible Americans...and all will be well...for the moderates on the fence.
(fucking moderates!)

And some actually want to play into it...voting Yes on the recall.

These fucks are willing to kill off and weaken any progress we made in the last sixty years.

[lostnfound]

34. Ha! Maybe the Bush/Cheney cabal intends to abscond with their cash..

and escape to the Caymans, presidency and all, like the thieves that they are. ;) and that's why they aren't worried about finding the WMDs or saving face anymore...

[sam sarrha]

29. the NEOCON's back in President RayGuns time said the purpose of

the tax cuts was to "shrink the federal government down to the size you could drown it in a bath tub and kill it" and a right wing utopia would rise out of the ashes of civilization ? not much of their stuff is well thought out. like the war, ending SSI and medicare with the huge deficets....

[AP]

30. There is so much potential for growth and progress in America. All...

...those people shut out from participating and those wage slaves in the middle class have so much to offer and can't bring their talents and intelligence to fruition because of how fucked up society is right now. Once we take progressive taxation seriously, and once the government starts protecting the middle class from Republicans who want to use them as the source of the wealth they transfer up to the top of the income ladder, we're going to see a renaissance in America.

However, if we don't elect a Democrat who's willing to challange the entrenched kleptocratic polices, we're going to be a banana republic before too long.

[Resistance Is Futile]

35. Way out

Radical action is the only way out at this point. Taxes must either be increased by at least 4% of GDP or the New Deal must be gutted.

If the federal leadership were even remotely responsible they would be framing the government funding issue as a national crisis and making it clear that hard choices must be made. The way this should be argued is as a matter of either putting grandma out on the streets or redesigning the tax system so the poor pay less and the top %25 resume paying their fair share. Ideally, the matter should be put to a referendum.

Of course, none of the electable candidates have the balls to take the funding bull by the horns and force the issue on the public. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away so the nero solution--fiddling while America burns its way to bankrupcy--will win by default.

[poskonig]

36. Eight years of Bush-recession will kill this country.

Solution: drink more beer. :beer:

Mmmmmm Beeeer