RULE #1: "whoever says 'Nazi' or 'Fascist' first, loses."

[johnaries]

This is a standard rule in Flame wars or even just "friendly" discussions.

It's a good rule, because after WW2 both terms have such negative connotations that many people would just "throw it" just to hurt the other person - whether it applied or not.

If you've been fortunate enough to hear George Carlin's "7 words you can't say on TV", it's like the "F" word. It's the one you save for the end of the argument. When you can't think of anything else to say... "Oh F you! F you and anybody who looks like you!"

Basically, it means you've run out of arguments and you're not happy about it - you're upset because you've been logically beaten and your only recourse is an emotional one: "F you, you Nazi! You're a Fascist!"

Fair enough. But Fascism and Nazism didn't occur spontaneously out of a vacuum. No matter what label you place on them, the policies of Fascism and Nazism were very seductive to the General Public under the right circumstances, and every country must be constantly vigilant to make sure they are not seduced by the same rhetoric.

So, now, we find ourselves in a unique situation. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But, when we find ourselves faced by the same rhetoric that enabled Fascism and Nazism, we are not allowed to point it out because - by Rule #1 - we lose.

We, as Liberals, tend to seek the Truth. We like to avoid "spin" because, as a matter of principle, it's like "propaganda". It may be a version of the truth, but it's not the whole truth. Although we Liberals pride ourselves on looking at all the "various shades of gray" in every issue rather than the absolute "black or white", in this area we demand that Our Leaders tell us the Absolute Truth in plain Black or White terms as they see it.

On the other hand, Conservatives tell us that they believe in absolute black or white issues, until it comes to their own personal version of "the Truth", in which they suddenly find all those shades of gray that they forgot to mention before....

But I digress... what about the rhetoric that our so-called "Leaders" push that we can see is Fascism but we can't use the F word because - then we "lose".

Well, then look at the rhetoric itself. Bush has used Cronyism all his life. Out of all the Corporations he has headed, they have all failed. He was bailed out by his friends or families - in other words, "cronies". In other words, "cronyism".

Now, who can deny that Bush has favored Corporations since he's been in office? I would posy some links, but they're too many to list and no one will really argue, anyway. So, just get them to admit that Bush supports "corporatism".

Once they admit Bush supports Corporatism over the rights and interests of individuals, you've pretty much got them. But, if you really want to nail the coffin lid down, here's the quote you need - from Benito himself:

Corporatism QUOTES. "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini (from Encyclopedia Italian, Giovanni Gentile, editor).
http://corporatism.tripod.com/corporatism.htm

If they want a second reference:
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"
http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/fascism_should_more_appropriately_be_called/163211.html

There you have it. The definition from the Creator of Fascism himself, defining it in terms that apply almost exactly to Bush's policies.

And you never have to use the F word!

Edit to add: (or the N word!)

[rwenos]

1. They Hate Us Using the "F" Word Because . . .

it hits too close to home.

I use it freely. I don't think I lose when I use it. I also use the epithet "Big Lie" freely.

If the shoe fits, let the Pubbie fascists wear it.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Same here

I just point out if you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it. I, personally, don't use the word Nazi or fascist lightly. If I use those two words it's for some reason.

[brainshrub]

2. Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's Law

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin's law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin's law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

[johnaries]

19. Thanks! That's it.

And although many of us still fell justified when we use the term because we know it applies,

you're still not doing anything to forward the discussion.

After all, what is the purpose of all this discussion?

Are we doing it to make us feel better about ourselves and our own personal opinions?

Or are we doing it to help progress the Human Condition to something better than it is now.

It's obvious to me that Freepers strive for the former.

We are better than the Freepers because we strive for the latter. Or, at least, we should...

[wookie294]

21. You don't need to kill 6 million Jews to exhibit Nazi behaviors

The torture at Abu Ghraib was VERY Nazi-like. American snipers are murdering innocent Iraqis to intimidate the Iraqi people into submission. The truth about America's "Nazis" in Iraq won't be revealed for a long time. But, one day, America's actions in Iraq will be compared to Nazi Germany.

[brainshrub]

52. Agreed.

Future Godwin's Law will be applied to comparisons with Republicans.

[Rich Hunt]

56. Adorno nailed it

Authoritarian personality – Believed to be the result of an upbringing of rigid discipline and conditional affection (Adorno et al. 1950). Its was a discovered connection between racism/fascism and the authoritarian parenting style which led Adorno to attempting to specify a psychodynamic framework as a basis. While finding comfort in the identification of submissive behaviour towards authority, the authoritarian person directs his/her aggression towards other groups, often racial minorities, all in an attempt to for the feeling of personal weakness with a search for absolute answers and strengths in the outside world.

http://www.psybox.com/web_dictionary/Authoritarian.html

What kind of people would follow an aggressive, arrogant, critical, prejudiced leader? The classic book on this topic is The Authoritarian Personality. These authors (Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswick, Levinson & Sanford, 1950) described several traits of authoritarian leaders, like Hitler, and their followers, like the German people:

1. Rigid, unthinking adherence to conventional, middle-class ideas of right and wrong. For the authoritarian the values of respecting and caring for others are not as important as being a "good German" or a "good American" or a "good Catholic" or a "good Baptist."

Important values to an authoritarian are obedience, cleanliness, success, inhibition or denial of emotions (especially anger and even love), firm discipline, honoring parents and leaders, and abhorring all immoral sexual feelings. This was the German character. Authoritarian parents tend to produce dominated children who become authoritarian parents. Egalitarians produce egalitarians.

2. Respect for and submission to authority--parents, teachers, religion, bosses, or any leader. There is an emphasis on following rules and regulations, on law and order. Everyone has a proper role to play, including gender role.

3. They take their anger out on someone safe. In an authoritarian environment (family, religion, school, peer group, government), the compliant, subservient, unquestioning follower stores up unexpressed anger at the authority. The hostility can't be expressed towards the authority, however, so it is displaced to an outsider who is different--a scapegoat.

4. They can't trust people.

5. Because they feel weak, authoritarian personalities believe it is important to have a powerful leader and to be part of a powerful group. Thus, they relish being in the "strongest nation on earth," the "master race," the "world-wide communist movement," "the wealthiest nation," the "best corporation," the "best part of town," the "best-looking crowd," the "best team," etc. The successful, the powerful, the leaders are to be held in awe. And the authoritarian says, "when I get power, I want to be held in awe too. I'll expect respect, just like I demand it from my children."

6. Over-simplified thinking.

7. Guard against dangerous ideas. Since the authoritarian already has a handle on the truth, he/she opposes new ideas, unconventional solutions, creative imaginations. They believe an original thinker is dangerous; he/she will think differently. It's considered good to be suspicious of psychologists, writers, and artists who probe your mind and feelings--such people are scary. Governments who observe subversives are OK, though. Indeed, censorship of the media may become necessary, especially if the media becomes critical of our leaders or sexually provocative. A businessperson produces needed products; an intellectual is a threat.

8. I'm pure, others are evil. The authoritarian represses his/her aggressive and sexual feelings, then projects those traits on to stereotyped persons in the outgroup (see defense mechanisms in chapter 5).

9. Ethnocentrism: Everything of mine is better than yours--my country, my religion, my kind of people, my family, my self. Research has also shown the authoritarian is more prejudiced and more prone to punish people (including their own children) to get them to work harder or to do "right" (Byrne & Kelley, 1981).

http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap7/chap7l.htm

Sounds like "Nazism", however there is a puritanical strain in America that exhibits similar characteristics. I'm sure we've all had relatives or neighbors like this.

[lvx35]

44. EXACLTY! Right on. screw the "f" word in these conversations.

Freepers use words like communist freely because they believe in the deployment of BS propaganda to achieve political ends. Their political model allows for this because they believe that it is appropriate that an elite should rule over the masses. Therefore telling fairy tails to the ignorant masses, such as that the oppisition is communist, is appropriate to their model. Our political model advocates a more egalitarian society where the people are well informed. THEREFORE, it is unbecoming, and antithetical to our cause if we use propaganda that is too BS. Now these guys are elitest, but they are not Nationalist Socialists. They are REPUBLICANS, and they are lying. The people deserve honest information, which is that REPUBLICANS are lying elitists, not some conspiracy that they are secretly Nationalist Socialists, which they aren't.

[AndyTiedye]

23. Godwin's Law was Rendered Moot by the Patriot Act

[DBoon]

3. Can I get away with calling them "Falangists"?

After all, Franco glorified the "christian soldier", as he murdered 30,000 of his countrymen

[rwenos]

8. Yours is a Literate Reference

Ever read George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia"? Best thing I ever read on the Spanish Civil War.

And "Falanjistas" works just fine for me. Ya entiendo.

[dissent1977]

4. Talk about an enormous propaganda victory

They have got us to avoid using a word like fascist, a word that fits their policies perfectly, by making it look as if we have run out of ideas.

They are free to use the word communist all they want, but when we call them what they are we are somehow going outside the proper boundaries.

They did the same thing with the word "conspiracy". All the word means is an illegal plot between two or more people. Conspiracies happen all the time, but if we use that word to talk about them we are somehow crazy. The people who are really crazy are the ones that believe there is never any small group of people who are working for the government who use their power to commit illegal acts.

[lvx35]

43. "They" changed the meaning of the word conspiracy!!!

No, "they" didn't. Thousands of people with schizo-affective disorder raving about people being out to get them and conspiracies changed the meaning of the word to coincide with craziness in the public mind. There was not a conspiracy to change the meaning of the world conspiracy.

[dissent1977]

67. No it was the powerful that changed the meaning

When you own the media, the press, and the government you can do a lot to alter the meaning of words. The word conspiracy is only considered to be a crazy word when there is a suggestion of a crime being commited by our government. To suggest that a conspiracy has to involve aliens, black helicopters, or brain implants is absolutely crazy. They prosecute ordinary people on conspiracy charges all the time, conspiracy to distribute drugs, conspiracy to commit murder. They have changed the meaning of the word so that they can use it against ordinary people, yet make people sound crazy if it is used against them. And no there was no conspiracy to make the word conspiracy a dirty word, it was the result of systematic problems in a society in which the rich and powerful always have an edge over those at the bottom. Changing the meaning of a word never involves an illegal plot, it involves propaganda. And propaganda is what these people have mastered to near perfection. They give you all kinds of crazy conspiracy stories and that helps them to discredit the real ones.

[berni_mccoy]

5. Hitler.

Do I win? I didn't say the N word or the F word.

[hfojvt]

11. Bushitler

who cares about that fascist rule anyway?

[rooboy]

6. Loses what??

the Sean Hannity piss festival? I would rather speak truth and lose than play childish word games and win.

[Quixote1818]

20. Lose undecided and moderate voters for one.

Sure their may be some truth in calling a spade a spade but if you want a moderate voter who is on the fence to come to our side you can't call Republicans such inflammatory names. You have to take them in slowly then eventually those names won't seem so radical. It's like the story of putting a Frog in boiling water. If it's boiling the Frog will jump right out but if you put him in when the water is cool and slowly turn up the heat then the frog won't jump out before you have him. Of course we don't want to boil undecided voters but you get the idea.

[wookie294]

26. Democrats have tried to 'be nice to moderates" since 1980

The moderate Democrat approach to politics has failed for 25 years. Tip O'Neil used to drink beer with Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton was a DLC Democrat. You can kiss America and the Democratic Party goodbye if the Democrats continue to follow the conservative approach to politics. Instead, Dems should keep speaking the truth. It will pay off eventually.

[Quixote1818]

49. Other than Rick Santorum name one Republican who regularly uses

the word Nazi to describe Democrats? Talk Radio does not count. Remember Randi Rhodes did a song about Rush Limbaugh called "I'm a Nazi".

Being strong and assertive in making your point is one thing. Even being a little nasty might be ok but using words like Nazi is just stupid and immature.

Can you imagine Wes Clark spouting the word Nazi to describe Bush? FUCK! Clark's career as a serious Democratic candidate would be OVER!

[inthebrain]

34. To Hell With that!!!!

I'm sick and tired of hearing this from Democrats!!!

Instead of going after moderates, how about creating more Democrats!!!

I hate to say it but name calling works. It's worked for the right for over thirty years. It's worked so well that to be called a liberal has become a slur!!!!!

Personally I wear it like a badge of honor. They can call me a socialist, communist or whatever they want. They can't escape getting called a Nazi when you back it up with facts.

[lvx35]

45. No it doesn't work.

I am brand new to the democratic party, came over from more conservative roots, and I can tell you that this does nothing but make me want to find a third party. I got sick of republicans being assholes, but I can tell you one thing, being an aggresive is congruent with their beliefs and policies. They believe that being an aggresive WORKS and therefore they advocate WARS, and the rest of their policies. Democrats advocate moderation and sanity, and that is something that we should reflect in our behaviour if we want to succeed at all.

[Quixote1818]

48. Thank You! AWESOME POST!!!! nt

[Rich Hunt]

68. surely

The original point of "Godwin's Law" was that just using powerful words by themselves does not further dialogue.

That doesn't mean one should shy away from meaningful comparisons, it just means that such words have to be accompanied by some context.

Yelling out "you fascist" doesn't work.

Saying "X is like fascism because ...." can work.

A pity this interesting thread got buried.

[Quixote1818]

50. Yeah Right!

I can just imagine the Democratic Debates and Hillary Clinton trying to sound strong yells out that John McCain is a Nazi because he did this that and the other thing (your facts). Then Wes Clark not to be out done says "No, he's a lying, scumbag!" Meanwhile Dennis Kucinich chimes in with "McCain is a good for nothing Republican Fascist! Let me explain....bla, bla, bla."

Sounds like a winning strategy! :rofl:

Being strong in what you believe and holding your own is one thing but being nasty, mean and using juvenile hate words backfires EVERY TIME!

[inthebrain]

61. It backfires?

A lot of good that strategy did Gore and Kerry.

Republicans called Kerry a traitor and it worked. Kerry didn't start firing back until it was too late.

They labeled Gore a liar and a lunatic. A lot of good Gores nice guy image did him.

I acctually think that the Nazi angle works well on MCcain. I'd like to know, if he's such a moderate, what he was doing backing such an extremist asshole like Bush. Was he just "following orders"?

What kind of leadership is that?

Personally I am not privy to MCcain because the man has no backbone. Sure he comes across as a nice guy but when Bush went after his service record he did very little to defend it.

Personally, I have a hard time buying the idea that he didn't know Bush was behhind the Swift Boat Ads.

Being nice and being moderate gets you no where. As Jim Hightower says, "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armidillos".

Politics is about peoples lives. I dont want a pushover running the Democratic party anymore. For those of you who claim to be moderates and came over becuase the Republicans are "nasty"; Do me a favor and go back!!!!

I would rather it be the issues that concern you the most.

[Beam Me Up]

41. Why do we need moderate Republican voters?

Do we have verifiable elections in this country?

Do you really believe we lost the last election because we were out voted?

I don't.

[wookie294]

9. The rule only applies to "liberals"

When the MSM starts denouncing Republicans for comparing abortion and taxes to Nazism, I will stop saying Abu Ghraib was a Nazi-like crime. Until Rush Limbaugh stops using the term "FemiNazi," I will continue to compare Republicans to Nazis. Sorry, but Dems need to be MILITANT and PISSED OFF, not friendly and fuzzy.

[inthebrain]

35. In other words....

Dems need to tell Republicans they aint gonna take their shit anymore.

Republicans dont like being called Nazis? I say screw em.

They should stop acting like them!!!!

[In Truth We Trust]

10. Fascisti, fascisti, fascisti, fascisti

[Zorra]

12. There was a long thread about the wortd Nazi yesterday.

It was fun, and had a lot of posts in it.

Right wingers hate the words "fascist" and "Nazi", because, well, those are the words that generally define the basic character of right wing personalities and their behavior patterns most accurately and concisely.

Why reinvent the wheel and make it square?

[Richard Steele]

13. Your "Rule # 1" is a common misconception, and quite WRONG.

Godwin never said any such thing.


If someone uses the same justifications
that HITLER used for his arguements,
then the comparison is valid and appropriate.

Someone said this better than I did:
" 'Good' and 'Evil' are RELATIVE,
so DISCUSSING them requires a mutually-understood point of reference.

CHRISTIAN discussions have had 'SATAN'
to provide a handy reference point for 2000 years;
their 'PERFECT EVIL' against which
all other 'evils' can be compared and contrasted.

And quite a USEFUL tool he is.

NON-Christian discussions were not given an equally EVIL
'Standard of Comparison' until the 1940s."

[johnaries]

28. Hey, I agree with you! I'm a Taoist. "good and evil" are HUMAN

definitions based on HUMAN perceptions and points of view. The Universal Tao is not so limited.

However, when we're dealing with real-life discussions with other people who don't necessarily agree with our own personal world views, we have to establish some "rules" that we can both agree on.

Godwin may have never said such a thing, it may be nothing more than an Urban Legend.

However, when you're trying to have a serious discussion on the playground and the other kid starts yelling "You said the N word! I win, I win!" are you going to respond with "Did not! Not a Real Rule!
Did not! Did not!"

OK, maybe that's not a fair comparison, comparing RW's to kids on the playground....


Oh, Wait a minute - that's EXACTLY what we're dealing with!
:evilgrin:

[Richard Steele]

39. NO! Kids on the playground have the ability to LEARN and GROW! n/t

[Swamp Rat]

29. Rule #2 - Disregard Rule #1

NAZI NAZI NAZI!!!

See? I didn't lose anything! :D

[wookie294]

30. Yep !!

Well said, as usual, Swamp Rat!!!

[firefox]

14. Fascist, Fascist, Fascist

We are a fascist country and somebody sure as hell needs to say so.

Do a search of the NYT or the WP and when you see that that they avoid the use of the word fascist, then argue with yourself over not using the word fascist.

I understand Nazi and it is lost on the uninformed, but here most people understand it is just a four-letter word that saves typing out fascist.

We should not be avoiding the use of the word that best describes our present country. We should be saying that the political landscape must change to drive the few that now run everything for their benefit with the use of our government and our tax dollars. The dividing line is not Republican and Democrat. The division is between those that support fascism and those that oppose it.

Don't use the word fascism. What a stupid thought.

[Beam Me Up]

42. That is exactly right. This isn't about "Republicans" and "Democrats" or

"conservatives" vs "liberals" -- "The division is between those that support fascism and those who oppose it."

I suspect the question being asked is what is the most efficacious methodology. What I and others are saying is that not naming it what it is, is part of the problem.

[MarianJack]

15. My Father Taught Me...

...that name calling, personal insults and losing your cool were tantamount to a concession of an argument, so I make a point of NEVER doing it.

The result is 1 of 2 things, both good!

1 I win on merit

2 I get the other person pissed off enough to blow their top and then say "Thank You for conceeding my point"

the only person I ALWAYS lose to is my wife, but shes always right!

BTW, it used to REALLY piss my father off when I got older and used his tactics on HIM!

[Dr.Phool]

16. Coulter! Coulter! Coulter!

Is that better?

[Quixote1818]

22. No thats worse!

Coulter is in a league of her own. :puke:

[sam sarrha]

17. I dont think we should be hamstrung by the other side from speaking the t

Truth.. A fascist is a Fascist.. except they got away with changing the definition to cover up what they are..

this is what a Fascist really is

http://www.indybay.org/print.php?id=1719333

about 42 million people died defending the world against them in WW2. We should NEVER FORGET !!!

I dont care if they dont like it... they dont like anything and want to enslave me.. F them, i always explane it to them.. i carry copies of the above article..

this is actually what they are pushing, using the Fascist format to get the power to do it http://www.alternet.org/story/15935

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm

[sam sarrha]

24. while i am at it .. , Fascism always has a state religion....... link>

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia

these are the guys that sponsor the Prayer Breakfast's the President and all the politicians who are anybody or want to be somebody go to..

they are the Christian fellowship and a lot of the mega churches and TV preachers.. the Jesus Logo Corporation churches

[wookie294]

27. Scary shit

Thanks for the links.

[AndyTiedye]

18. When Robber Barons Buy the Government

It's not capitalism or even "corporatism" at that point, because it
isn't anything close to the "level playing-field" that these imply—
If the "corporation" is not close to the regime, no contracts for them!

Such a label also minimizes the effect of the relationship between the
regime and what is rapidly becoming the state religion. The conjunction
of these factors brings the current regime within the definition of fascism.

The following words put them in the same league as the Nazis, if not worse:

"advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool"

Rebuilding America's Defenses. PNAC, 2000
http://www.newamericancentury.org

[G_j]

31. advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes

and what are to call them then?

I also don't trust people making rules for everyone else.
I mean who TF is Goodman anyway?

[IChing]

25. second rule question? Can I use Fuck You vs Nazi? or do we all lose?

Words and language define your reality for most,
and those words
are a legacy of our existence
thru the history of realities that were
shared realities.
The definition of words and how you or we decide
them to describe that reality

IS THE BATTLE THAT IS BEING FOUGHT NOW

[inthebrain]

32. I use it

And give a historicle back up at to why I use.

For example; 9/11 and The Patriot Act and The Reicstg Fire and the Enabeling Act.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Nonsense. The reason we're in this mess today is because we failed....

...to state early enough and loudly enough that the NeoCons are simply a US version of the fascists. In fact, they are Nazis by all intents and purposes.

Tell you what, if you want to go on appeasing these SOBs, feel free, but I'm going to call it like it is.

[inthebrain]

36. Also....

When they call liberals communists or Stalinists, who ever tells them that's a low blow? I am not expecting an ounce of mercy from them anymore nor are they going to get it from me.

They never even back it up with facts.

Personally I dont mind being called a socialist. There are many people in this country that were socialists that I respect more than the Nazi right.

Helen Keller

Eugene V Debs

Jack London

Howard Zinn

[AndyTiedye]

37. We Lost 'Cause They Own the News, the Churches & the Voting Machinez

They can call us whatever they want. The news will repeat it
endlessly, and anything we say in response they chop up into
little pieces to illustrate their soundbytes.

The "undecided" voters know that ** is a disaster, but they vote
for him because the preacher says they must.

And millions of votes simply get stolen by the Reptiluglians.

[inthebrain]

38. Look at it

I agree that all those are a factor.

I'd say the media plays a bigger a role than many are willing to admit to. Guys like Paul Weyrich, Reed Irvine, Rupert Murdoch and Scaife sure do get off on playing dirty tricks on the America electorate.

Pat Robertson and Falwell spread a lot of hate as well.

BUT!!!!

Look at the marjin of victory they have recieved by it?

Not much in the last election and vote stealing is a major problem.

All in all, the American public aint buyin despite thier efforts. We have built up AAR and Media Matters and their effects, with minimal investments are paying HUGE dividends.

A spine transplant has been in order for this party for a very long time!!!!

[Quixote1818]

51. You are exactly RIGHT! John Kerry should have called Bush a Fascist

Nazi. That would have won us the Whitehouse! I can just see it now during the first Debate:

Mr. Kerry turns and looks over at President Bush and says "You NeoCon's are simply a US version of the fascists. IN FACT MR. PRESIDENT, you are Nazis by all intents and purposes!


Great Plan!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Tommymac]

40. Start the discussion with Fascism....

lay it all out on the table and then go from there. Diffuse the emotional content of the word right away.

I disagree we lose when we say those words as long as we say them in context, with reason and a clear definition, and not as epithets.

BTW, fascism comes in many forms...the Nazis used a very violent form...Franco was less violent; American Fascism has it's own uniqueness. I doubt we'll see the level of physical thuggery employed in those past decades....but the repression of ideas and personal freedoms are just as real.

But I do like your use of 'corporatism' and cronyism...both very good alternatives.

Good thing is, most Fascist economic models don't work very well for very long....monopolies are not economically viable over the long haul; they tend to cause extreme economic stagnation;...but living in the short term is not so pleasant.

[yurbud]

46. the right made up this rule, like Rush's one about class warfare--

They scream about it to chase you away from their achilles heel, the chink in their armor, and like idiots, most run away instead of slicing the tendon or driving the blade home.

Stick them on these points, and they bleed. Stick them again, and the life will drain out of them.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[yurbud]

47. It is unfair to compare Bush to Hitler.

Hitler endured poverty and was even homeless for a time.

Hitler fought in combat, was injured, and earned the Iron Cross.

Hitler was a captivating speaker who wrote a best-selling book.

Hitler was a snappy dresser.

You can't say any of those things about W. who never wiped his own ass his entire life, didn't bother to show up for even his cushy guard deal, can't speak or read his own language, and voluntarily wore a white cowboy hat and orange cowboy boots with a black suit and overcoat.



Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[AndyTiedye]

53. Hitler Was Actually Elected

AFAIK, he never stood for re-election, but he appears to have been
fairly elected the first time.

Bush**'s people stole the election in 2000 and they have
stolen both subsequent national elections. They are even
better-positioned to steal all future elections thanks to the ever
wider adoption of Diebold Republican Electing Machinez.

[Generic Other]

54. I am sick of NAZIs telling me what I can or cannot say

I call neocons Nazis because they act like them. I call military recruiters pedophiles because they act like them. I call freepers assholes because they act like them. I call born agains hypocrites because they act like them. I call this whole discussion censorship because that's what it is.

Everytime someone tells me I can't use a word, I know I have found a word that draws blood. And I will shout it from the rooftops.

NAZIs have taken over my government.

[Rich Hunt]

55. Great post!

Godwin's Law was never intended to be cited every time someone uses the words "Nazi" or "Fascist".

When people apply Godwin's Law in this fundamentalist manner, they conveniently close off any discussion of Nazi ideals, Nazi culture.

I mean, sometimes you come across things that are just so severe and "Aryan" in quality that you can't help but liken that sensibility to Nazism.

[thebigidea]

57. when did decades-old usenet satire become law, anyway?

I find it mildly humorous that extremely unfunny usenet humor gets quoted as if its some kind of standardized debating rule.

Might as well quote office humor that some jerk in accounting emails you to win arguments.

[Chovexani]

70. Chovexani's Law

Invocation of Godwin's Law in any flame war is played out.

Now I'll shut up before the internet lawyers slap me with a subpoena and I have to testify in internet court.

[AX10]

58. no. The left is not organized nor has the will to fight.

The right always compares us to the most horrible people and groups, and they get away with it. The left needs it's sound machine reved up to deal with this.

[inthebrain]

62. in the regard the Nazi message works....

We get compared to Communists and Socialists all the time. I wonder who the Nazis went after when they came to power?

They have gone so far as to say we should be deported!!! I wonder who advocated that same strategy in Nazi Germany? Was it the Social Democrats?

NOPE!!!

THE NAZIS!!!!!

Republicans want to write hate into the constitution by limiting equal rights to gays. I wonder who did something simialar to that to Jews in Nazi Germany?

Oh wait.

It was the Nazis!!!!!

Republicans like to go after the unions and workers rights. I wonder who did that in Germnay?

Oops, the same answer keeps coming up!!!!

THE NAZIS!!!!

Republicans wrote the Patriot Act which give law enforcment the right to arrest you w/o telling you why. It also give the government the right to search your house w/o probable cause. This was a result of 9/11!!

Again, What did the nazis do after the reichstag fire? Ooops, they past the Enabling act!!!

[Rich Hunt]

64. neither is the right

The right isn't all that organized either - what with all of these factions jocking for the top spot. I don't think Christian fundamentalists would care for some of what the Neo-Cons believe, for example (they don't strike me as very "religious"), and I think your typical corporate opportunist doesn't profess a consistent ideology (or history, unless you count shredding documents as "history") for that matter.

Remember that Germany at that time was a much smaller country than the US is today. There may be little fascist enterprises here and there, but what is really going on is a power struggle, and we're a part of that, too.

[goodboy]

59. I like 'corporatism' but it just doesn't have the malevolent "ring" of

FASCIST! It's almost like an expletive.

you FASCIST! Yeah. I like that better.

[Rich Hunt]

63. use strong language

It's important to have a good grasp of the history and everything, but these people thrive on conflict and sometimes the only way to get them to pay attention to what you're saying is to use a strong word like "fascist", so long as it has some grounding (i.e., not calling them a "fascist" just because you disagree with them, not using it as a blacklisting tactic).

Some people are so poorly educated that they don't even realize how close their values are to Nazi values. It just seems to be something that's passed down through families, and at this point, many people aren't aware of the source of their attitudes.

[Karenina]

66. "something that's passed down through families"

Prescott, anyone?

[sweetheart]

60. That zany sophist frist

lies metaphorically skewered
on a rotary spit revolving
in his doctors costume
green as a gnome
chewing the leg off some old lady.

:-)

[Lannes]

65. Use the old standby

"Why do you hate America?" :)

[RandomKoolzip]

69. Rush Limbaugh was calling liberal women "Feminazis" long before DU was up.

n/t