WOMEN ONLY: Would you use violence in self defense

[Silverhair]

Poll question: WOMEN ONLY: Would you use violence in self defense

Situation: You are alone and being threatened by a man whom you realistically believe will rape/murder you. (He is holding a knife and bragging to you what he is going to do to you.) You have available to you various levels of force. What level of resistance do you believe is morally OK?

I am asking this because I recently came across a leftist female writer who believe in absolute total nonviolence in all situations.

[KarenInMA]

1. Grab.Twist. Pull

Or, if I had a gun, shoot.

Not taking chances..

[amazona]

11. you're going to find grab/twist/pull/kick only works in movies

Some of these self-defense courses are really lame. In real life, a woman might make multiple tries for the family jewels without success. There isn't time for that, and if the dude has a knife, you don't need to be getting that close. Go directly to the gun, if you have it, is my humble view.

[sandnsea]

14. You usually don't have the gun

Which is why every woman should know how to make grab/twist/pull/kick work, and it will if women learn how. Guns provide a sense of false security, particularly for women.

[amazona]

38. try it a few times, you'll find I'm right

Grab/twist/pull/kick don't work because you can't actually get to the asset in question well enough fast enough. You will almost 100 percent of the time need repeated tries. A lot of supposed "training" in this area is literally a handjob that sells a unworkable dream to women. There is no way that "every" or even "most" women are going to be able to locate cooperative males who will allow them the regular training needed to develop accuracy. An untrained person in the heat of the moment is going to strike the, er, protruding part, and not the sick-making, instantly disabling part. Nine times out of time, I guarantee it. I seriously doubt that most women in this thread will be able to gain this type of practice and experience. "Scrambled eggs" is a rare hobby indeed. I doubt you could find 1 man in 1,000 who would let you practice this for yourself.

You are not going to believe an unknown voice on the internet and I doubt you will find a man who permits the experiment so I strongly suggest that you talk to some professional dominatrixes who do this and ask them in all honesty if they hit the mark every time. And this is when the dude is cooperative and in restraints!

Our Hollywood fantasies that every man is vulnerable because every man has a set of "jewels" are just that, fantasies. Otherwise rape would be a rare event indeed if you could disable a male so easily.

Nope, the idea that we can save ourselves by an easy attack on the balls is just another way to blame women for their own attacks. "Why didn't you hit there? You must have wanted it." Same old, same old. It doesn't work just because Samuel Jackson thinks it does.

Sorry. Another balloon popped!

[sandnsea]

49. If you can't even get to the balls

You sure as hell aren't going to be able to get to a gun. That's my point. And counting on balls alone isn't what I'm talking about either. Women need to be taught to fight to the death from their teen years, jab eyes, wind pipes, the nose. Most women haven't been taught any other kill points or given opportunity to overcome their own squeamishness about killing or maiming either. Which is the same problem with the gun, many women wouldn't shoot to kill which is what you have to be prepared to do. The number of women in this thread who think you should "talk them out of it" is proof of that, NO woman should think that's a good first option. Big difference between talking to someone when you're tied up with no other choice; and fighting for your life during an attack or BEFORE you end up tied up.

[Rich Hunt]

51. that is correct

The problem is, many people get their notion of a "predator" from the media.

Rapists very often carefully select their victims by stalking them. In that case, they could get their hands on your gun before you do. I know of one case in which the perpetrator had actually obtained the keys to the victim's apartment ahead of time - he didn't even have to break in!

Self-defense should be about much more than buying a gun or learning some martial arts moves. You need to learn as many tactics as you can - physical and psychological.

Also, get a dog if you can.

[sandnsea]

55. "as many tactics as you can"

I would agree with that completely. I think being prepared psychologically is probably most important. I have a dog too, at least I know a stranger can't get in my house without my knowledge, that's comforting in itself.

[madeline_con]

91. "... sense of false security..."

He has a knife, I have a gun. Nothing false about that sense of security.

[skylarmae]

16. then you'd better be really strong, strong enough to escape

that knife's blade. Take it from someone who was held captive for 2-1/2 days back in 1990. It's one scary mother fucker! I was lucky enough to keep my 7yr. old daughter and myself alive by doing what he said until I could escape to get help.... Maybe you never can know until it happens and one sums up the circumstances particular to each instance....IMHO

[KarenInMA]

25. That's terrible! I'm sorry that happened to you.

My point was, "non violence" in this situation is ridiculous. If I am able to fight back, with whatever means I have, I will. I'm glad you and your daughter are ok.

[noamnety]

26. My sister went through the same thing

No child and not held for a full day, but abducted at knife point.

She also went along with what he said, and talked to him a lot and eventually he let her walk away, unlike the other women who tried to fight back and ended up in dumpsters.

I didn't answer the poll because it would depend on my assessment of the likelihood of surviving, given the circumstances. It's kind of like asking how would I fight a war - I don't know my strategy until I know who the enemy is, their tactics, where we are fighting, etc. I don't have a problem with the concept of using deadly force, but I can't say categorically it's the best thing to try.

[skylarmae]

44. I didn't answer the poll either - not enough options

thanks for the reponse. so glad your sister's outcome was positive too...

[spunky]

69. It is the situation. On the one hand, you could try to fight to death

but what are your odds of succeeding? I've never fought anyone in my life (other than my sister when I was like 10), and if someone with a weapon attacked me, and I tried fighting back, I'm pretty sure I'd lose. I'm not saying talking would work, but in the moment, it may be preferable to certain death from pissing the attacker off even more.

The question really is, distasteful as it may be, would you choose to be raped and maybe survive or just plain killed from fighting back and losing.

[noamnety]

72. Given those two choices, it's easy

I'd rather be in the survivor's category. I have a daughter that doesn't need to lose a parent.

[cally]

37. You are a strong woman

I'm thankful you were so strong.

[sandnsea]

50. Surviving is the idea

Any way you can. Lots of variables in these scenarios, lots of men end up taken capitve too. Bless your heart, I can't imagine what you went through.

[Lindacooks]

79. Also bite.

That ends forced oral sex pretty damn quickly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Ghandi believed in non violence in all situations too

He felt it was more redeeming to humanity that you offer up your life to the cause of non-violence then that you retaliate.

Furthermore, the Atlanta case a couple months back where the suspect held the woman captive and she convinced him to turn himself in is evidence that non-violent response can be just as effective as violence.

I don't know what I would do in that situation but I know I am capable of either....violence or non-violent reasoning.

[jtb33]

5. Yes, it can be...

but only .01% of the time. For every time you hear a story like that, how many do you hear about the woman being murdered/raped, etc?

The sad fact is that people who would do such a thing (in the OP's situation) - the only "language" they understand is that of power and force.

[distantearlywarning]

6. All respect to Ghandi, but...

I do not personally have a moral belief in non-violence. It is not a cause I support (I guess that makes me a bad progressive, but oh well...)

I would have no qualms about using deadly force on a man I believed was intending to hurt me badly or kill me. In fact, I would actually probably take some pleasure in being personally able to ensure that a rapist/torturer/murderer would no longer be around to hurt anyone else.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. ?...very curious post

[lyberyl_prygryssyve]

29. Why?

Christians are responsible for more violence throughout history than any other group of people. You think one or two incidents like this make up for all that? How much longer do you think it will be until the Crusades start up again with King George leading the charge? Hell, maybe they already have. Just look at Afghanistan, Iraq and eventually Iran. Muslims are cowering in America and London now thanks to him. Might as well make them cower in their home countries.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I don't believe every practicing Christian, even an evangelical

is an extremist any more than I believe every practicing Muslim is. The woman has my respect and admiration for not prolonging the bloodshed in Atlanta. I deplore all broad brush forms of bigotry and do not think she earned the title "bitch" for potentially saving numerous lives by using reason rather than violence to deal with the situation.

Furthermore, the religious have always been manipulated by the powerful in order for the powerful to maintain power.

[lyberyl_prygryssyve]

39. No not all of them are extremists

Some are only potential extremists. And this woman didn't use anything that resembled "reason." Please...

the religious have always been manipulated by the powerful in order for the powerful to maintain power.

Funny. I've always believed it's the other way around: the religious have always manipulated the powerful in order for themselves to maintain power.

[Rich Hunt]

56. hmmm...I don't think so

The "powerful" typically use tragic incidents (crime, terrorism, whatever) to manipulate the feelings of religious people. Basically, they use fear. In some situations, people in fear will turn to their churches for answers, but demagogues will manipulate the more insular of these religious groups.

However, the guys at the top are invariably too cynical to be truly "religious". Some may have a bizarre notion of morality, but that's not the same as religion.

[formernaderite]

71. As an atheist...I can tell you that there isn't ONE religon more

responsible for atrocities...please. So, are you only going back two thousand years? Let's get real...every larger human society on this planet has done something awful, at some point...go back to the ancient world...people had some intersting sources of entertainment.

Seriously, vast generalizations never work...for example what is your definition of atrocity? It could certainly vary, depending on the culture. I happen to believe religion leads to self delusion...some religions however seem to have kept their societies from studying anything new or progessing.

[LisaL]

46. Great! When being attacked, have your copy of a

"Purpose driven life" handy.
:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Ghandi presented a valid choice

YOu can have your last act on this earth be a violent one or your last act be one of peace and non-violence. Becoming violent does not guarantee your survival.

[RubyDuby in GA]

3. When it comes to someone who is threatening my life in such a manner

and it's a clear case of kill or be killed, he better say his prayers 'cause he's going to meet his maker. Bite, scratch, kick, hit, punch - whatever it takes to make sure you see another day.

[seabeyond]

4. anyone coming thru my window, bustin thru door

have proven intent. no need to chat

dead as dead can be. no guilt, no qualms. also would be protecting my children. really no quilt or qualms,......that is ultimately my job as a mother

[amazona]

7. I use as much force as I have available

You have a right to self-defense. Yeah, some of these guys are just B.S.ers but I'm not a professional shrink and it isn't my job to figure out if he's just waving a knife around for show. If I have a gun, I wouldn't feel bad about blowing him away. The problem is, you don't usually have a gun in this situation. So I have found the better answer for me has been to run away. So far, so good. What I'll do when I'm old and too feeble to run, I have no idea. I feel bad for elderly women who live in bad areas where predators are looking to rob them.

[ihaveaquestion]

8. Best and First thing to do is try to run!

This is from my Tae Kwon Do Sensei - Always, ALWAYS run when you can! Especially when threatened by a knife! Unless the guy is a crack shot, a knife is MUCH more dangerous than a gun!

:yoiks:

[blogslut]

9. I just want to live

These hypothetical situations are kind of irritating. Most of us have no idea how we'll react until we're in the moment. People shoot themselves and members of their family with their own guns too often because they panic.

I would do my best not to panic and live through whatever.

[ohio_liberal]

10. No clue

I really don't know what I would try to do. I imagine I'd do anything to survive.

[oneold1-4u]

12. Female vigilantes is the answer

For the woman who kills any man who has forcibly molested, raped, or killed, a child, another woman, or anyone, they should be acknowledged as heroic and given a special medal by the chief justice of the Supreme Court! This is purely self defense, and defense of thousands!
If this had been the case for the last 50 years, it would have stopped a lot of crimes and hundreds of them (predators)would not be in prisons and hospitals at a greater expense than all working women's taxes!
Women need to grasp more liberty!

[amazona]

42. this is not how you grasp more liberty

A great many women are in prison today for killing their attackers and abusers. Those who are acquitted may grab all the media attention, but the reality for most women is otherwise. I would kill in my self-defense or defense of another if need be but I'm well aware that the chances are high I would go to prison. In practice women don't seem to have the same right to self-defense as men. Actually, the study I'm thinking of probably goes back to the 80s, so maybe men who defend themselves also end up getting jailed today. Self-defense is a very difficult thing to prove in a court of law these days.

I do not know the answer, but I do know that killing my attacker is highly unlikely to have a net result of more personal liberty for myself.

So far, what works for me, is running away and living to fight some other day. Knock on wood!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. How come I have a feeling....

this poll really has little to do with women and violence?

Please name this feminist writer.

[noiretextatique]

17. well...it is a bit odd

:rofl: but it is a "leftist female writer," not necesarily a feminist, leftist, female writer :rofl:

will we see you on saturday?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

32. You sure will!

:hi:

Tahoe Mom and I both wil be there! Can't wait to catch up -- it's been too long!

[Misunderestimator]

27. I had the same sense...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. if it quacks like a duck

;-)

[Blue Diadem]

15. If I could not get away, I would defend myself and if I had a way to put

his sorry ass out of commission permanently, I would.

[KansDem]

18. I'm a guy so I didn't vote in this poll but have this to say...

I spoke with my 13-year old daughter recently about the idea of the both of us attending martial arts classes together. I want her to know how to defend herself in case the need arises. I want her to feel that she has the option of force to fend off an attacker or dissuade an assaulter, and I, in this day and age of political division bordering on violence, want to protect myself from anyone who "disagrees" with my politics.

[marions ghost]

24. Your daughter will thank you

one day. I think all teens, girls and boys--should know how to defend against an attacker, and how to keep their wits in order to assess a threatening situation. It's important to get used to some body contact, to know where that physical boundary is that should not be crossed, and what your "options" are. I'm for basic self-defense to be taught in schools. But otherwise there are many good martial arts teachers out there.

[amazona]

40. my self-defense classes were handjobs

In the school we had a cop come by, one day, to tell us to strike the attacker's eyes and balls. Like that's gonna work with a 100 pound girl with no training. We actually already knew that attackers had eyes and balls without a cop telling us. Attackers defend these areas just fine. You are just going to make the dude mad. I don't know anyone personally who escaped an attacker by going closer to attack balls and eyes. Me and others have escaped several attacks by running though. In theory, male attackers could run faster, in real life, thank God, they're pretty lazy. You can also give them a choice that slows them down by throwing your purse in one direction and running in the other.

My martial arts instruction wasn't any better and was completely without merit as a means of self-defense in my humble opinion, although I'm sure it made my mom feel better, and I guess that's what it's all about in many cases.

If self-defense is to be taught, it should not stop at the basics, or it is worse than useless, really.

[marions ghost]

43. sorry about your bad experience

but I have had some great experiences in self-defense workshops. The ones taught by women are really good as they get into the whole area of how to deal with being physically smaller. At least you got the point about not responding to aggression from a "victim" mentality. That's more than some women can manage. Many of them don't even know that they should yell and run.

[manic expression]

35. A few things to look out for

I've been doing a little bit of martial arts, but there are a lot of things that you should be aware of. Some martial arts classes are not very good, and the instructor may not really be trying to prepare his students well. Secondly, a lot of practitioners get a false sense of superiority after less than a few years of classes; they think the moves they know will defeat any foe, and when a fight actually breaks out, they're helpless. Make sure you could apply your skills to an *actual* fight if needed (you probably won't know what's going on in a fight). Also, recognize the fact that YOU WILL GET HURT, and there is nothing you can do to avoid this. If you fight a 12 year old kid, get ready to be hurt (and if you fight larger person than you, try NOT to fight him as much as possible, but if you have to, get ready to fight until you can't anymore).

Just make sure that you know a real fight is like a car crash: two people collide, hurt each other, and one person falls, or both people fall and fight it out on the ground. Be pragmatic and realistic.

One more thing, don't be guilty at all about going after a person's eyes or groin.

[sandnsea]

53. Exactly right, and

Tell her the time to fight is when an attacker first appears. Never ever ever ever go with an attacker, those are the ones who are definitely going to kill you. Most women and children aren't taught that. Also, "this is not my father". That's what she needs to scream if she ends up kidnapped. Anybody will help her if she screams that. It just broke my heart when I watched that little Shasta Groene walking around with that murderer and she didn't know what to do to get away.

[Hello_Kitty]

81. That's right

NEVER LEAVE WITH AN ATTACKER! If he grabs you in the parking lot and tries to force you into the car or trunk DON'T GO! He's either gotta kill you there and risk being caught, or he's going to think better of it and take off.

But of course, it's all abstract until it happens to you...

[supernova]

19. Why yes I would use deadly force

If I ever were in an extreme life or death situation. I would fight back as hard as I know how.

I personally make a distinction between political repression with voilence and personal, domestic, or random violence. Nonviolence is an effective (albeit longterm) method for agitating for political change. It does indeed make a statement.

But a death between individuals for whatever reason (domestic violence, money, drugs, etc.), doesn't have the political element to it.

Granted there are those few cases where the victim achieves fame because of some aspect of the case. And through that victim, people can rally round the cause. But this doesn't happen very often.

[Kraklen]

20. Most rapists are people the victim knows.

Would somebody kill their boyfriend, husband, father, etc. in this situation?

This really isn't something that can be predicted willy nilly on a message board. Violence never happens like it's planned.

[noiretextatique]

22. if deadly force was necessary

and if i had the means, of course i would use it.
i've talked crazy people out of escalating to the point of violence, and i've used my head to get out of a potentially dangerous situations. however, i would have no problem stopping someone intent on doing me bodily harm, by any means necessary.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Off topic

were your ears ringing last night? Misunderestimator and BeHereNow were sitting at the piano singing Willow Weep for Me and I said,"Noiretblu" would love this!

[noiretextatique]

59. omigod

you know i love that song :loveya:

[AX10]

60. Bingo

[greenbriar]

28. oh hell yea

eyes gone

penis, gone

hair gone

and that is just for starters~



my 13 year old daughter is also taught this method as well!

[Misunderestimator]

30. It is now one hour after you posted this poll... any answers to the many..

questions here? Like... WHO is this "leftist female writer" you reference?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

62. Psssst....

I don't think there is going to be one! ;)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

you mean the leftist feminist communist hairy-armpitted author?

:rofl:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. Yup, that one!

:D :hi:

[Misunderestimator]

66. She's probably a lesbian too...

:rofl:

[Debi]

31. My ex-husband used force to 'keep me in control'

I started fighting back (and finally left him).

I would use whatever reason or force was necessary and hold no guilt in the end results.

I hope I am never in that situation and if I am I hope I have my wits about me enough to do whatever it takes to get out of it alive.

[OnionPatch]

33. I have no qualms

It would be self-defense to kill an attacker and I'd do it if I had to. And if anyone tried to harm a hair on my child's head...well, that SOB would be DOA when they came to get him.

[skygazer]

41. Yes, I would

I don't believe in violence for violence's sake but if my life is threatened, you damn well betcha I'm going to do whatever I have to. And I'll bet your leftist female writer would do the same when faced with an actual situation.

[LisaL]

45. I believe using deadly force in defense is morally OK.

And hopefully legally OK as well.

[Guaranteed]

90. There is no question in my mind that in this case, God, Jehovah,

Buddha, or whoever will forgive you for anything you do to the man- and it's all necessary.

[prole_for_peace]

47. i would use any force necessary to save myself.

i am basically a non-violent person and think too many people use this as a first resort in non-dangerous situations. but a would be attacker does not deserve any debate on whether violence is the answer. this is not violence, it is self defense and there is nothing noble in sacrificing oneself for a non-violence ideal.

when these things have come up in conversations before i have said that, while i may not be able to take someone out, they would sure know they had been in a fight before it was all over.

[philosophie_en_rose]

52. I'd do what it takes.

I'd try to use reason or sympathy, but I would respond with violence proportional to the situation.

[Norquist Nemesis]

54. Often, you won't do what you say you will when actually faced with it

Being a rape victim, I know that what you imagine you would do is not always the way it plays out.

[alarimer]

57. If you fear for your life

You have the absolute right to defend yoursel by any means necessary. I would prefer to run away if possible but failing that, I will do whatever it takes. If it is me or them, well it sure as hell isn't going to be me. I will NOT submit.

[meow2u3]

58. His life or mine? Damn right I'd use deadly force to defend myself

Last time I checked, justifiable homicide is neither a crime nor a sin. Even the right to life is not absolute if your own life or that of another is in imminent danger.

[Cleita]

61. The circumstances would dictate the degree of force for me.

I knew a woman who jabbed an assailant, who was trying to rob her, in the eyes with her car keyes . He broke her arm throwing her into a concrete wall when she did it. It gave her enough time to run to a nearby business and call the police while he was grabbing his eyes. I would probably do something like that. Screaming might be all that you may need to do, or you may need to use deadly force. As a small person myself, I know I would not get second chances so my choice would be the final one.

One also needs to know ones limitations before turning into Xena, Warrior Princess. Sometimes playing mind trips on the assailant could be the only although not best course for one to take. I think your friend has not had to confront that choice. I also wonder if she had a daughter that was being assaulted instead of her, what her choice would be? I couldn't really answer your poll because it doesn't take these points into consideration.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

64. I would and have done what it takes.

Each situation is different. You don't always get the option of trying to speak to your attacker, you know?

When I lived in Houston I was grabbed from behind in my jobs parking lot late one night when I was leaving. I didn't bother with asking the person attacking me if we could work this out. I stomped on his foot and twisted loose, I then ran screaming my ass off. I was very lucky I got away.

[Pastiche423]

67. Never again

[Scout]

68. I voted deadly force after trying other methods

I agree that relying primarly on the grab-twist-pull defense is not smart. One should know how to use it, in theory if not in practice (practice is better) in case the need and the opportunity arise. However, women should know a lot more than that.

Women should know how and be able to RUN! Unless your attacker can shoot well at a moving target, or throw a knife, you may be able to escape by running.

Don't panic--breathe. Think. If you can't escape harm, you can do things to help catch, identify, prosecute.

Women should take a physical self defense class like judo or karate. I liked judo because we learned several varieties of blood chokes. You can pretend to be cooperating with your attacker and be sneaky and use a blood choke (women's generally smaller wrist and forearm bones make us really good at these). You only have to hold it a few seconds after the victim begins to feel discomfort until they fall briefly unconscious. Once they are unconscious, you quickly tie or otherwise disable them--or RUN!

Women should know about and refuse to ever go to "crime scene #2." No matter what they tell you, do not go anywhere with them. Even/especially if they have a weapon. If they get you alone somewhere with that weapon, you are totally fucked. Make up your mind that even though you may get hurt or you may die, since those will most likely happen anyway if you go with them, you will stay right where you are at and fight or run.

I've been fortunate, I've never been attacked and had to try these methods (I know the judo blood chokes work, I have done those). I hope I don't have to.

[formernaderite]

70. Wow....I'm pretty shocked at the response by women in this poll...

...not to negate your reactions...but I'm surpised that you all chose shoot and ask questions later. Hmmm..have to contemplate the larger meaning of this.

[marions ghost]

75. and what other real alternative is there

if you want to live.

[kalibex]

77. 'Bigger meaning...'?

It's simply this:

Even after all that has gone on in this culture, throughout so much of 'history'....a lot of women still value their own lives.

After all.


-B

[formernaderite]

83. I applaud the woman who could strike out....

although I'm also generally fearful that she doesn't know what she's doing, particularly if using a weapon she isn't an expert with. The larger meaning I was looking for...is that so many women are very apprehensive in using retaliation or even defensive measures, particularly if they're violent. I have to agree, that if you're not an expert at self-defense, with a weapon or without...it may be a futile activity.

[Lisa]

73. I would try to get away

If the only way I could escape is by using violence and taking advantage of the confusion -- sure. Realistically, I doubt I would actually be able to kill my assailant -- you have to be experienced or incredibly lucky to do that on a first attempt (even if you have a gun, which I do not). So in my situation, it makes more sense to go for the eyes or face, and then run for it -- or if that's not possible, barricade myself in a safe place.

I'm not confident in my ability to assess whether the rapist was actually serious about his plans to kill me -- or to sweet-talk him out of it, since I have zero charisma in that department. So I'd just have to assume the worst (as I would even if he weren't threatening to kill me, because leaving me alive as a witness, especially if I already knew his identity, would be a considerable risk for him).

Of course, the best way to get out of this situation would be to avoid it altogether -- but my guess is that everyone, man or woman, has walked down particular streets or talked to certain people even if we realized it wasn't the best thing to do at the time.

[Silverhair]

74. Thank You, Women of DU.

I am very pleased that almost all of you WILL defend yourselves and your families. I will give a bit more explanation now of the question.

I haven't responded to any challenges because I have been spending a wonderful day with my youngest daughter. She graduated from college in May and I picked her up at the airport today. (Double major, did college in 3 years, has been accepted to grad school. Yes, I'm a proud Daddy.)In fact, I won't be posting any for several days as she will get all my attention.

Amazona seems to have the best knowledge of real world self defense. You have learned well.

To the responder who said that knives are more dangerous than guns. Sorry - WRONG ANSWER. Past the reach of his arm plus a few inches for the knife, he can't do anything. A gun's bullet can go a long ways. And you don't have to be a crack shot to hit someone at ten feet, although a knife isn't much use at ten feet, unless he gets closer.

About who writer was. Jeannette Rankin. I ran across something she had written while chasing down something else on the web. The small amount that I read had to do with economics and pacifism. Sorry to say, I didn't know who she was. Since then I googled her and will readily admit that the word "feminist" in it's best meaning truly describes her. If, based on the small amount that I read on that first reading, I have misstated her position on pacifism, then I will apologize

Why the question now? When my daughter was about 7, we were driving and the music on the radio quit and a political show came one. Some woman was saying that it was immoral to shoot a man if he was trying to rape you. My daughter then asked me what that was about, and I tried to explain (Rape I explained it as: "hurt you really really bad")and that the lady was saying that girls should not do anything. She disagreed. She could understand that the radio was talking about guns and very serious injury and said that the women about to get hurt that bad should shoot the guy. Running across some pacifist statements on the same morning I was going to pick her up at the airport got me to wondering how most modern left-of-center women would answer that question.

To the responder who said that the women were ready to "shoot first and ask question later", please reread the scenario. The question of the guy's intent has already been stated. The would not be defending against a weak possibility of a threat, but against a clear, immediate, deadly danger. Big difference.

[noiretextatique]

82. about "real world" self-defense

i know some women who have never taken a single self-defense course, and if a rapist ever approached one of these women: i'd be more afraid of what they would do to him than the reverse.
i know a woman who is 5'3' tall and weighs 150bls...solid muscle...who can take down a man twice her size, and make him cower in fear.
i know a woman who can knock out just about anyone, and who carries the scariest knife i've ever seen and packs her pistol whereever she goes.
i know a woman who was an MP in the army...another woman few should mess with.
i know a woman who shot (and eventually killed) people for money.
i know former female gangbangers who definitely shot, and probably killed, a few people.

thank goodness for the seriously tough, and sometimes scary women i know...they have all taught me abot how to defend myself.

rankin was a remarkable woman, and a student of ghandi in her later years, as nsma mentioned. you might have mentioned that also, because most of us are not students of ghandi, and most of us do have to live and defeend ourselves in this very violent society..the real world. but thanks for making me use google and find out about this most fascinating woman.

[leesa]

76. Morally? All bets are off, aren't they? I would do whatever I could get

away with. I am naturally adverse to killing like most people are and would run if I could, but if I had to fight and it killed him, so be it. If I thought it was wise to talk my way out, I'd try it. Depends on the situation and the attacker.

[JI7]

78. who is this "leftist female writer" you are referring to ?

can you provide a link if possible ?

[Silverhair]

80. See my post # 74.

Do your own googling.

[bamademo]

84. I was grabbed out of my bed in the middle of the night and raped

I was sound asleep. He hit me in the head several times with my free weights and I almost died. There was blood all over from my scalp wounds. I would be dead if I had not kicked him in the balls after he got up after raping me. I didn't have a gun then but I do now and I will shoot anyone who comes into my domain threatening me harm now.

[Ms. K]

85. I was attacked when I was young

And instead of going for the balls, I went for the knees. I took his knees out with a particularly hard kick, and went running and screaming after that.

My ex-husband tried using force on me, and when I finally had enough, I used the techniques my brother taught me, and kicked his ass, and stood over him and told him he'd never fucking touch me or my daughter again. He never has.

So yes, I believe in using force. And yes, if I had to, I'd kill someone trying to harm me or my daughter.

[bamademo]

86. My ex beat me up. He was a drug addict

I told him one night if he ever hit me again, I would castrate him. This was before Lorena Bobbitt. He never touched me again and checked into a psychiatric unit. He got the message.

[Bluerthanblue]

87. personally, i couldn't use deadly force-

and haven't- though i've had reason to-

living with what i've done, and been through is enough.
i couldn't live with knowing i'd killed another person-

but that's just me-

[NMMNG]

88. I'd try lesser forms of defense first

But work my way up if needed and as a last resort use deadly force.

I have to do rounds of multiple houses in a not-so-safe neighborhood for one of my jobs several times a night. I cover an area of a little over a square mile by myself in the dark. I carry pepper spray and a personal alarm for protection and I'm prepared to use the spray if necessary. Even though I'm feminine I tend to "butch" my walk when I'm going on rounds just to appear like less of a target.

I've had training in dealing with aggressive behavior that is designed to be non-harmful to the aggressor (for my job with the developmentally disabled). If I could use these techniques to get away I could. However if I had to I would use the amount of force necessary to disable my attacker just enough that I could escape. My desire would not be to cause them lasting harm/get revenge, but merely to get away.

[Guaranteed]

89. Well done.

You kill him, rape or not.

As a man, if another man is holding a knife to MY throat, the second I get the muzzle under his chin, it's over.

There's no room for fucking around with this shit.

[K8-EEE]

92. Don't Have A Gun But....

Unless you walk around with your gun cocked all the time I don't think it would do you much good -- attacks are by their nature, SURPRISING!

I would take the perps gun and shoot him with it so maybe I should have answered "deadly force." I take lots of preventitive measures to avoid attacks, the one time I did get mugged when I was opening my car door, I SCREAMED my ass off and the guy ran off, gun and all. (took my purse, and all seven dollars in it though!)

I really don't see how a gun would have helped me though, it's not like I would have had it ready like his was ready, I was trying to get in my car, he was trying to mug somebody.

[Ladyhawk]

93. I've learned I'm no pacifist. :)

I recently ran into a group of leftists that won't watch violent movies or play violent video games. God, I love movies and video games! I was restricted in what I could watch because I grew up fundy. To me, their approach came across as "dogma of the left," which I find as despicable as "dogma of the right." I'll do whatever the fuck I want to do for entertainment as long as it doesn't actually harm anyone.

And, oh yeah, the guy with the knife? He's a fucking dead man. Not only is there not enough time, but if he gets away with the crime or isn't held in prison for long, I'd be a nervous wreck for the rest of my life. If someone else starts it, I'll sure as hell finish it.

Gee, I'd better check my blood glucose. My fingers have this strange desire to type four-letter words.