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RNC Statement Shows Cheney Lied, May Be Guilty of Obstructing Justice

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nashuaadvocate Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:24 PM
Original message
RNC Statement Shows Cheney Lied, May Be Guilty of Obstructing Justice
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 01:11 PM by nashuaadvocate
On July 11th, 2003, Karl Rove, the Chief Adviser to the President of the United States, told Time reporter Matthew Cooper that he knew who had sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson on his fact-finding trip to Niger: Wilson's wife.

According to the RNC statement released today, more than two months later, Vice President Dick Cheney told NBC, on September 14th, 2003, "I don't (know) who sent Joe Wilson (to Niger)."

So: Karl Rove was leaking information to Time that he wasn't willing to share with the Vice President of the United States? A top Administration official (Rove) tells Time that it (the Administration) "knew" who had sent Wilson to Niger, and then two months later another top official (Cheney) denies that knowledge?

I don't think so.

At some point, Rove's supposedly lying to so many people--first Bush, now you'd have to believe he was lying to Cheney, too--that you realize, he didn't lie to any of them: they've all been lying to us.

So, did Cheney repeat this lie to the prosecutor investigating the Plame leak, Attorney Fitzgerald, when the latter interviewed him?

If so, guess what: that's obstruction of justice.

You know, one of the things they tried to impeach Clinton for--and Clinton's deceit was both less direct and pursuant to a civil (not criminal) investigation.

Think about it: if Cheney did tell Fitzgerald that he knew who had sent Wilson, then he would also have been forced to tell him how he got that information--from Rove. Which means Rove would be in a jail-cell right now, either for the leak itself, or for perjury, or for obstruction of justice. The fact that Rove remains free is, politically-speaking, res ipsa loquitur proof ("the thing speaks for itself") that Cheney maintained his claim of ignorance not only to NBC and to America, but to Fitzgerald as well. Which makes him not only a liar, but also, almost certainly, a criminal.

And if it really is true that Rove was withholding information from Cheney, that fact would already have been uncovered and Rove would have been fired from the Bush Administration. The fact that they haven't fired him is, again, at least in political terms, res ipsa loquitur proof that the Administration was wise to the same intelligence Rove had.

And by Administration, I mean President and Vice President.

And by President, I mean the man who told the American people repeatedly that he wanted to uncover the source of the leak and didn't know himself who the leaker was.

But what did he know, and when did he know it?

White House Press Corps reporters have already asked White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan that question, and he's refused to answer; now the RNC statement casts an even greater shadow on whether Cheney and Bush have lied publicly about the Plame leak. That is, did Bush lie to the cameras, in a Lewinsky-like moment, in order to save his corrupt king-maker, Rove?

And what sort of dirt would Rove have to have on Bush for Bush to be willing to do that?

(I've been blogging this stuff pretty heavily, here, for anyone who's interested).
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kerryin2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Cheney lied??
You must be kidding right, he would never ever lie.
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nashuaadvocate Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. First time an RNC document has proved it, though, huh?
PLUS there's the little part about obstructing a criminal investigation. Because if Cheney told Fitzgerald he knew who sent Wilson, then A) he was lying to NBC and America, and B) Fitzgerald would have asked him who told him (Cheney) about Plame, and he would have said "Rove," and Rove would be in a jail-cell right now somewhere in Virginia. Hence, he didn't tell Fitzgerald that. Which would be obstruction.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You should email reporters of your analysis
Nice blog!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Wasn't Wilson to report to Cheney on his findings?
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. I am still a little fuzzy on that. He was debriefed, but I don't know
exactly the chain of command from Cheney's original decision to investigate the situation in Niger to the authorization of Wilson's trip to the debriefing of Wilson, and where the information went after that, and when the information was disseminated. I'm sure that the information has been presented in some fashion, and I vaguely remember Joe Wilson talking about it, but I do not remember the specifics. If anyone has those specifics I would love to see them and I'm sure that others would to. Thanks in advance. B-)
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. I will have to do some digging.
Here's one thing:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-29-cheney-cia-leak_x.htm

I plugged in plame leak timeline and it returned a lot of hits

Here's one.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Plame_Leak_timeline
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Thanks for the links...that Plame leak timeline is great. Maybe you
should start a thread devoted just to this. I had no idea of the Italian Nigerian Embassy forged documents.

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Yeah, the coalition of the willing was willing to commit
fraud for the chimp.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
77. This is a great time line for every one to see! Could you do a post
on this where it to get wider circulation? This is a fascinating read and I want to study it some more but it is so well documented. Thank you so much for the Plame timeline, it is really at a help.
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Im_Your_Huckleberry Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. hard to believe, i know.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent find
Wouldn't it be great if Cheney, Rove and Libby committed perjury?
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. ... 'if' they committed perjury ?
:shrug: You mean, 'if' it finally sticks to them.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
60. True
I can't help getting excited about this! It's party time! Ken Mehlman is sweating bullets with Blitzer on CNN. hehehehe
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jurassicpork Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. Wouldn't it be even better
...if they all committed suicide? Look how much better off Germany was after Hitler and Gerbils killed themselves?

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
94. Gerbils?
Maybe you mean Joseph Goebbels.

Gerbils are those cute, friendly little kangaroo-rat type pocket pets that I had a couple of in junior high.;-)
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. KICK!!!!!!!!!!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Kerry, Dean, Hillary, etc need to be saying this on TV- TODAY.
I hope the "star" DEMs with media access do not drop the ball on this like they did the DSM & Gannon, etc, etc.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Kerry & Hill on CNN:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Makes you wonder why they are piling up so many lies on top of
the deceits and fabrications. Maybe because there is some real evidence of Cheney's treasonous selling of dual-use WMD materials to Pakistan when he was CEO of Halliburton? I think the real story was a pre-emptive strike on Plame and getting her out of a position that would give her access to some very ugly information on Cheney.
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Bingo! nt
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Yup, that sounds about right.
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Help me here. Since Valerie is already outed, I just don't understand
why she hasn't said very much about this situation. She's the one person who could probably take down this entire administration. Do you think she is just waiting until indictments are handed out? This entire story needs a face to the real victim here, and that would be Valerie. Any thoughts on why she is so silent? I haven't even seen a picture of her anywhere on tv, but I understand there was a picture in a magazine (Vanity Fair?), so it couldn't be because she is still undercover.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. No reason for her to say anything
If she's saying something it might be to Fitz and the grand jury. As a CIA NOC she knows how to zip her lip.
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scdusek Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Jerry Springer was reading an editorial
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 03:47 PM by scdusek
that was in the NY Post (I think) this morning talking about if Valerie Plame wants to maintain her secret identity, then she needs to stop letting the media take pictures of her. It went on to say that it's her fault the media is writing so many stories about her. The repugs are complete morons. Actually, the people who believe this garbage are the morons.

I find it totally comical that all the right can talk about is how they are so hurt that Hillary compared our CIC to Alfred E. Neuman. It is absolutely hilarious. Their side compromised national security during a time of war by leaking information and this is all they can focus on.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. I support that theory
There's a whole lot of desperation going on here judging by the response of the Administration and their information peddlers.

And, where the hell IS Dick Cheney anyway?

Invisible Dick has disappeared.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. right on!
It is a shame our useless media/investigative journalists can not get past the "source" aspect and get to the "Why a WMD EXPERT in the CIA" aspect of the case.
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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Oh that it's true.
BTW, I think I heard somewhere or maybe read it that kkkrove has testified 3 times to the grand jury. Isn't that unusual? Wouldn't it mean that he was caught lying or someone else was caught lying & he was called back for further questions. Any thoughts or did I miss hear?

best
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proiowadem Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. interesting
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Boy. That "Tangled Wed" of Deceit Has Woven Into 1 Big Liar(s) Mess
Tee-hee. I hope every damn one of them goes down. Liars, traitors of the worse kind. Oh yeah, "worse" than Watergate alright!

They caused this country so much, so damn much... if I were them I'd just step down and start handing the keys to the WH to Senator Kerry and Senator Clinton. And while there at it, I want a statue erected on the WH lawn in honor of Congressman Conyers and his fellow Rep.'s that backed him up.

And let's not leave out the other "powers to be" for working hard behind the scenes. I say it's "pay back time" and we ain't seen anything yet.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. I couldn't agree more. This administration has been a perfect example
of hypocrisy and lies since the first illegitimate selection in 2000 by SCOTUS!

"Liars, traitors of the worse kind. Oh yeah, "worse" than Watergate
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You Got That Right. WAY Worse then Watergate.
At horrible proportions, sadly stinkin' so!

I want everyone of them gone, out of here - impeached!
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
89. Did you ever imagine in your wildest dreams we had so many
liars and traitors among us? I mean right here, in the (once) good ole' U.S. of A?!? Sickeningly amazing.
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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. That is because they were pardoned and told to be quiet after
Mr. Bush Sr. left office in 1992 (Iran Contra, BCCI and Savings and Loan). Mr. Clinton stopped any further investigations to, "unite the country". We need to push hard to stop this continuing madness, that includes stopping the DLC from kissing Republicans Asses!
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. Shew. You know, we're really fortunate to have Dr. Dean, now.
You're right about that. Thanks for those reminders.

Thanks "mrdmk!" :thumbsup:
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. Off-topic slightly, but scroll to the bottom of the RNC statement
to enjoy a very captionable pic of Chimpy, gazing fondly to his left at all the right-wing spin on the page. One might easily add a thought balloon that says, "That's it boys--lie your asses off!"
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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Didn't he say this about Sen. Edwards as well?
Vice President Cheney: “I Don’t Know Joe Wilson. I’ve Never Met Joe Wilson. … And Joe Wilson - I Don’t Who Sent Joe Wilson. He Never Submitted A Report That I Ever Saw When He Came Back.” (NBC’s “Meet The Press,” 9/14/03)
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. Very interesting indeed! If you have any links on this I'd appreciate...
I'm off to search Cheney and Wilson.
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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
80. I don't have any links
but I do remember there being a hubub during the election. I think it was during a debate that Cheney said he had never seen Edwards in session and that he'd never met him other than during the debates. Of course this was debunked in about 2 and a half minutes when clips of Edwards introducing Cheney at a pancake breakfast or something were posted all over the internet and on television.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. They are such good repulsive slimy liars, these holier than thou
Christians, aren't they? They give genuine Christians a bad name. Christ would refer to them as Pharisees (nope, that would be too good a term for their likes; perhaps even for those who could 'turn the other cheek, and love their enemies'.)
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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #91
103. They are good at creating their own reality...
I'll grant that. Don't know what their faith has to do with it, though. I'm nondemoninational myself and am more interested in the lie than qualifying it as Christian or anything else.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
97. Cheney has to know Wilson...
Cheney was in Bush Sr.'s admin - was he Sec. State or Def? I can't remember. Joe Wilson was Deputy Ambassador or something at the Embassy in Iraq WHEN we were doing Gulf I. So Cheney's got to know who Wilson is and has probably spoken to him, possibly numerous times, I would think.
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LeftNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. dare to dream...one day...Fox News Alert...Cheney is a liar...
that would be something to see
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scdusek Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. You'll never see it
with the 24/7 coverage of Aruba Ashlee's disappearance. Apparently this is the only news worth reporting these days.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. Rove has ALL the dirt on Monkey Boy.
Bush must be shitting bricks right now. Rove will sell Bush down the river to save his own ass.
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sueh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. No. I think Bush will sell Rove down the river.
Remember that Bush demands loyalty from "his people", however, he doesn't stand behind them if he doesn't want to. Remember Trent Lott?
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evil eggplant Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
67. Look at it like this
Yes, rove will do anything to save his ass, but is there any way bush didn't know about it.

scotty, bush, cheney and rove should all end up as butt-buddies in prison for the what they have done.

Hopefully, the WHPC will keep their newly-grown balls and keep the pressure on.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Hi evil eggplant!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. I really hope so
Unleash Helen Thomas !!!
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
22. I just read Mehlmans statement - He's dancing on the head of a pin!
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Could someone tell me
where George Tenant fit into this whole thing? They gave him a medal, and sent him on his way because ________ .
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. That perplexed me as well
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. G. Tenet has committed crimes.
Tenet was allowed to resign. He was actually fired because he was attempting to discredit Ahmed Chalabi, who at the time was the disignated PM for Iraq. The deal was that the Bush Regime and their soldiers in Congress would not bring charges upon Tenet if he remained silent about his knowledge of "fixing the policy" for the Invasion of Iraq. What Tenet meant by "Slam dunk" was that he would allow the CIA Intell to be fixed to suit the Bush Regime's policy of invasion. He did this and was rewarded.

Tenet's crimes?

Tenet lied under oath to Congress about his involment pre-911 to avert an oncoming attack upon Amerika.

Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when (CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so.) After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Whoa!! I could empathize with your name 'disturbed' before, from my
own limited perspective; but after realizing what you know, your name is quite appropriate.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. Cheney has probably never heard of George Tenet!!!!
If he hasn't heard of Wilson then he won't have heard of George Tenet!!! LOL LOL This gets better!
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. I have this pseudo-president that I want evicted. I was going to ask
if he would be willing to take on the case, but it looks like you already have! Very good job and I like your blog.
:dem::bounce::bounce::applause::smoke::yourock::smoke::applause::bounce::bounce::kick:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. RNC issues talking points, but McCllellan won't answer ....
.... questions because of 'ongoing investigation.

Hmmmmm ....




Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. KICK. Thanks for the cogent analysis and insight.
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 02:13 PM by redacted
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the phantom shouting Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Anyone up for a Party?
This posting is born of pure excitement, the thought that things do not have to remain as they are, and that changing American society would be not only beneficial, but would also be delightfully fun for all those involved.

The two party system is letting our nation down. I have come to the realization that nothing will change in Washington without the people themselves changing it. To that end, I have compiled a list of individuals who I believe a majority of Americans would find preferable to the clowns who are now running the show, both republican and democrat. I would be interested in any suggestions you might have regarding this new political party. It might be called the Common Sense party or the Citizen's party. The complete cabinet would be announced well before the election, and would assemble together for campaign swings throughout the country. First draft of personnel:

John Conyers, Jr. - President
Barbara Boxer - Vice-President
Joe Wilson - Sec. of State
Ray McGovern - Intelligence
Wesley Clarke - Defense
Oprah Winfrey - Adviser
Stephen Hawking - Science
Dennis Kucinich - Dept. of Peace
Stevie Wonder/Patti Smith - Music Secretaries
Maya Angelo - Education
Michael Moore - Fool

The list will go on...

My hope is that we can begin to work collectively toward a common goal. This is a land of the people, not democrats or republicans. I still believe change is possible in America, and I feel that a popular third party is the best avenue we have for saving our great nation, and, ultimately, making it live up to the promises inherent in the constitution.

Once again, I welcome any comments you might have.

Sincerely,
J. Riley
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the phantom shouting Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Could someone please start a thread on this?
I know this post doesn't belong here, but I do not believe I have enough posts to start a thread myself. Thanks in advance.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
92. Umm - Michael Moore "fool"?
He is the "conscience of the country"

or

"truth seeker".

Hardly a fool!
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. Does anyone know who sent Joe Wilson to Niger???
I mean, from what I understand at this point, Valerie Plame recommended to "someone" at the CIA that her husband do the fact-finding trip to Niger regarding the yellowcake - but who proposed the trip, who approved the trip, who financed the trip, that's never been disclosed.
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LeftNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Does Plame
have have the authority to "send" someone on a trip of this magnitude? She could have recommend him is about all I would think.
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nashuaadvocate Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Cooper's notes are unambiguous on this point.
According to Cooper, Rove told him Plame "authorized the trip."

S.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
81. Cheney proposed that someone get the information on
the yellow cake documents. Former Ambassador Wilson appointed by Bush Sr. was asked to go. His wife Valarie Plame was told to contact him. He cam back and said that the deal was a forgery. Bush put IT into the speech anyway. Novak was contacted to smear Valerie and Joe and the rest is history. I think there is more stuff on Cheney involved and I think they smeared her so that the Cheney stuff would not come out.
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jenn1977 Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
98. i heard he was appointed by clinton.
which is it?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. The sort of dirt
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 02:57 PM by WinkyDink
"And what sort of dirt would Rove have to have on Bush for Bush to be willing to do that?"

Dirt that is spelled j-e-f-f-g-a-n-n-o-n.
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ntisuzi Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
105. The sort of dirt
Hey, Winky, you may be right. Gannon, Guckert may have been visiting "little George". I remember his "reaction" on tape when he was nominated in 2000. He sems to have different wiring than most of us.
:nopity:
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. I thought Wilson said it was Cheney's request
Referring to inquiries regarding a possible Iraq-Niger link, Wilson says, "The question was asked of the CIA by the office of the vice president. The office of the vice president, I am absolutely convinced, received a very specific response to the question it asked, and that response was based upon my trip out there."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0711-05.htm

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm
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nashuaadvocate Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. No, he didn't.
Read the RNC statement.

Even the RNC statement makes it clear: Wilson said it was "agency officials" who authorized the trip.

He said that they authorized the trip in part because people in Cheney's office, not necessarily Cheney himself, had questions they wanted answered.

S.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Wilson's own words from "What I Didn't Find in Africa" NYTs
In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

...

Though I did not file a written report, there should be at least four documents in United States government archives confirming my mission. The documents should include the ambassador's report of my debriefing in Niamey, a separate report written by the embassy staff, a C.I.A. report summing up my trip, and a specific answer from the agency to the office of the vice president (this may have been delivered orally). While I have not seen any of these reports, I have spent enough time in government to know that this is standard operating procedure.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

while he doesn't say Dick sent him, he certainly doesn't say his wife sent him. either. The CIA sent him to check it out for Cheney's office... his desk possibly.



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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
69. Yes Wilson was told to go to Niger by Cheney
Now did Cheney do that to set Wilson and Plame and how does a Vice President have the power to order CIA agents all around the world

ABUSE OF POWER!!!
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scdusek Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. My biggest point in this whole thing
is that there is no way in hell that Bush can fire Rove. We can only imagine what kind of dirt he has on EVERYONE in this administration. He has so much he can hold over anyone's head...Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, etc....

So there is no way Rove will be let go. The only way someone is going down is if the entire ship sinks, which wouldn't surprise me at this point.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. Rove could easily take a firing and stay loyal. He's fanatical
In any case unless Bush goes down too, Rove can simply wait for the pardon. These people have learned from the mistakes of every other similarly criminal regime in history and are using what they have learned: how to lie effectively, gauge what they can get away with, pressure and coopt who they need to, threaten some others and generally flash their wares (insane, venal, wrathful, poisonously malicious political gamesmanship) just enough to keep you off balance.

The press, the people, the sympathetic power class, the left-leaning politicians need to make common cause to overcome these people. And it will be tough.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
82. Rove got canned from GHWB administration
for planting false stories with Novak before.
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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
47. I hope the people here who have the contacts, get this out.
Nice job. REALLY!
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Bumblebee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Since very few of us have the stomach to watch Fox
this may be helpful to follow both the spin and their anxiety:

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/07/12/fox_allstars_on_roveplame_scandal_the_spin_starts_here.php

and

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/07/11/fox_what_scotty_mcclellan_and_roves_lawyer_said_pretty_close_to_a_lie.php

In terms of who sent Wilson, no spouse can singlehandedly authorize one's own spouse to go on any agency's business -- this is called nepotism, and if it had been the case, you would have seen her (and immediate higher-ups)already persecuted for that, given the pressure to find the dirt on the Wilsons. All she did, in all probability, was to tell her higher-ups that her husband is familiar with the issue and situation in Niger. But, more to the point, do we know if the part of the 9/11 Report that addressed that is classified or available? I remember lots of noises about that coming from Fox and other rightwing outlets at the time but have not been able to find any real documentation of it.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. Kicked and Nominated! Excellent and thought provoking thread...
I'll check out your blog. Thanks.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. Cheney lied about quite a lot of things in his time.
Obstruction of justice would be the least of his crimes. But if he's convicted of that charge, that would be enough for me.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
79. All Roads Lead to Cheney: Read this link and my signature!
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9thkvius Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
55. More likely that Cheney told Rove, I think
It seems to me that something as classified and need-to-know as the identity of someone working under cover for CIA would be known to a handful of people at best, even within the White House. I doubt Rove would have had direct access to that information. He did not even become an "official" Federal employee until he became Deputy Chief of Staff, right? So I think it's more likely that someone else passed this on to him. But who?

Cheney? Possibly, especially since he was apparently the one who wanted someone to go to Niger in the first place.

Someone at CIA, perhaps Tenet? Again, a possibility, and certainly Tenet would have had access to that sort of information.

Someone else with access to highly classified information of this specific nature, such as John Bolton, who at that time was head of nonproliferation efforts at State?

It's also possible that there may have been more than two people involved in the passing of this information. But there have to be at least two, because I cannot possibly see how Mr. Rove would have gotten that information otherwise.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #55
83. 'hit the nail on the head'
yes
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
57. Sweet.
Rove... Cheney... Rumsfeld... Rice... BUSH.

Let the dominoes begin to topple until the whole corrupt neoCON gang of reTHUGlicans is gone!

Then we can start repairing and rebuilding the destruction they have wrought.

:patriot:
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. military
Careful. One of those guys supposedly has command of the armed forces.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Yeah, so?
So did Nixon.

Are we supposed to back off and let them continue to get away with whatever they want just because one dipshit supposedly has command of the Armed Forces -- who I hear now mostly despise him, anyway?

Methinks the Armed Forces would like to know that their "commander" is at least harboring traitors, if not actively collaborating with them. I also think a vast majority of our troops may not like the idea of being sent on a suicidal fool's errand by a pack of traitorous liars. Don't you agree?

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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. in the end
It depends on whether the highest-level commanders are complicit or not. If they are, they've got the bigger guns and can fend off the FBI. General Boykin's remarks in particular are not encouraging.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #85
101. To a point.
I think that if the highest-level commanders are complicit and those below them know it, they may just feel betrayed enough to revolt. It's not unheard of.

Boykin's a crackpot. I'm hoping those commanders under him recognize that fact. I'm hoping they and all of our troops think hard about their oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic -- rather than political overlords against their countrymen.

Let us pray.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
59. Bush and Cheney think they are invincible
So Bush and cheny think they are still invincible. I feel they have another trick up their sleeve.
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JEDinBKLYN Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
62. Off to the Hoosegow!
It's about fricking time... Let the Frog March begin!

Wheeeeeeee!
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
63. What hasn't Dick Cheney obstructed?
n/t
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
64. But Rove lied, Wilson's wife didn't send him
At least, that's what Wilson always said, right? So while Cheney may very well have known that it was Rove spreading the rumors, he might not have known who sent Wilson (just like Rove needn't have known who really sent Wilson in order to spread the word about Plame).
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
65. nashuaadvocate, welcome back!
Long time no see!
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
68. I have always said Rove was protecting Cheney when he talked
to cooper!!!

Cheney is involved and thats why Judith Miller is in jail!!!
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
71. nashuaadvocate
Excellent work !
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jurassicpork Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
73. One thing remains certain
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 05:46 PM by jurassicpork
Even if Rove isn't frogmarched out of the White House and summarily shot in the back of his enormous fetal-shaped head right there in the Rose Garden, it's obvious that *someone* in the administration leaked out Plame's name and if the investigation and the grand jury doesn't produce a single major culprit, then it'll be the beginning of the end for this administration. And the more Bush (eventually) keeps backing Rove, the further and further he will himself be backed into that dark little corner.

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
78. Who gives a fuck who sent him? He went and he proved they were liars.
That the yellow cake documents from Niger have been accepted and admitted to be forgeries is all that matters. This information was garnered by Joe Wilson and has never been disputed. If he went to Niger on his own dime, it makes no difference, he uncovered the truth. How he got there is inconsequential and is a red herring being thrown out by the administration to deflect the focus off Rove.

These are the only questions that matter:

1. Did Rove out a CIA operative?
2. Who forged the Niger documents?
3. Who knew about the crimes and the perpertrators listed in questions 1. and 2..
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culturalelite Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
84. The key is the memo
How did Rove and other senior administration officials end up with the memo that is the basis for claims that Plame had something to do with her husbands trip? (By the way, can you beleive that the contents of this memo, if not the memo itself, was divulged to Gannon?)

Dec 26, 2004 Washington Post says:

"Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband's trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it.

CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the meeting."

The CIA says that Plame was not responsible for the decision to send Wilson to Niger.
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HaveSomePavulon Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
86. Clarity
Just two comments--->"Rove would be in a jail-cell right now, either for the leak itself,..." Errrr just to clarify, said leak didn't actually break any law per say......

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HaveSomePavulon Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. MoreClarity
I mean one. One point in fact... One point for me to make that is..... But I suppose one point also awarded to me for making a good point. SO TWO !
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
88. Thanks for The Suburban Ecstasies
I've missed reading the Nashua Advocate
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JoMama49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
90. Then, how come Michael Savage, on his show today, claimed
that Joe Wilson had already outed his wife on his webpage? He said this was a non-story and of no consequence?
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
93. kick for truth-Nail `em-Indictments and Impeachment NOW!!!!!!
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
95. I'm so dad gum shocked!....n/t
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
96. Rove knows ALL the dirt on Bush
they've been buds for years.

And I'd even be willing to bet that Rove is in possesion of the mythical picture of Bush dancing naked on that bar in Dallas. Rove knows it all about Bush.

They cannot cut Rove loose. They have entirely too much to lose.

Damn this is starting to look more and more exactly like Watergate looked as it unwound. Everyday there were little tidbits from here and there. Little pieces of the puzzle that individually didn't mean much. But when put into place all revealed one big picture.
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buddha8 Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
100. interesting
Now this caper is finally getting interesting. Ofcourse the corporate media is not following the real story: how did a political operative receive information about a covert CIA operative? At what meetings was this discussed and who gave him the name and the go ahead? Bush or Cheney or more than likely, both. If he had truly leaked something he would already have been fired in a rage by one of the above for insubordination. No. He was given the name by someone with National security information that he is not entitled to. This is how this Junta operates. They politicize everything. Its about Winning and Power to them.

So clearly what we have here is a conspiracy at the very top. This is why Fitzgerald out of Chicago is pressing so hard. He realizes this is very big. The corporate media will not cover it that way not until they are forced to. But all the denials out of the big house are very loud in their silence.

Remember that Cheney served under Nixon. So did Rove. They saw what happened when scandal broke close to Nixon and he turned over Dean,Erhlichman and Haldeman. IT didn't work. They closed in on Nixon. Nixon tried to distance himself from his closest aids but it backfired and only heated up the scandal. Bush and Cheney know this. That is why they are going the other route. Co-conspirators who are closing ranks. Reagan gave up Poindexter and North immediately over Iran Contra the minute they were tainted but they are much smaller fish than Rove is to bush.

No now its getting interesting. No way they ever get Rove or Bush or Cheney because quite simply they are running a facist outfit with full support from the media. there is no one with the power to effect justice. They will create a diversionary terror event if they need to before they would ever leave office but that won't even be necessary. No one has the votes or the checks or the power to get justice here. We live under a Junta. But it might be interesting to see how this effects the rest of the bush-turd's term. If it neutralizes him in any way or if it goads him into increasingly hysterical decisionmaking. He is just as likely now to turn around and move on Iran or Syria or create all manner of wild,jingoistic diversions. But sorry folks, no way Rove leaves and no way they get to the bush crime operation.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
102. Bernie Ward (San Fran radio talk host) mentioned this
Hey, nashuaadvocate, I just wanted to let you know I emailed your article to San Francisco's lefty talk radio host Bernie Ward tonight. He read the first few paragraphs of your article on the air. No mention of your blog address or DU, but at least your're getting the word out. Talk radio and reporters need to be given your article. It's intriguing! Keep up the great, blog! Bernie Ward is on KGO Radio. Here's the website of the radio station....

http://www.kgoam810.com/listenlive.asp
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nashuaadvocate Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Thanks, Wookie!
Any way we can get the word out about this is absolutely crucial.

Best,
S.
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