The debates are conclusive: Clark is a flop

[Must_B_Free]

He's creepy.

Military industrial grey hair with dark bags eyes and a hunched back. I am having a tough time wit this guy being my knight in shining armor.

Dean peaked too early and CLark is a flop. This thing is wide open for Dennis Kucinich, or perhaps Al Gore will come to his senses and take his seat.

[eileen_d]

1. Is this a quote

from the "Tiger Beat" guide to Election 2004?

[Dookus]

2. LOL...

hunched back? The guy's got incredible military posture!

[MIMStigator]

68. Hunched back--wounded protecting B-Free's right to....

write that tripe.

[Bandit]

78. And just how did he protect anyone's rights? ~ In Vietnam??????

We really needed protection from those pesty commies attacking us at our doorsteps like they did. Grow Up. Vietnam was not about protecting our rights. Our rights were never endangered except by the US government just like they currently are. Iraq is not threatening our rights it's Ashcroft and Bush* who are threatening our rights. The same applied to all our last "Conflicts". US troops have been used to benefit industry not human rights. Clark was an enabler to those goals.

[Kahuna]

72. LOL. Good one.

:D

[Dookus]

3. and yes..

it's wide open for Kucinich. After 5 months, he's polling at 1%, so there's nowhere to go but up.

[Must_B_Free]

5. At least Kucinich wasn't one of the Architects of the Iraq

Invasion and Occupation

[Birthmark]

9. Well, that was good for 1%

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

27. or his claim

to "overturn" NAFTA and GATT on his first day in office.

Doesn't that sound like the same kind of unilateral arrogance that we're dealing with now?

And while I'm going... a KUCINICH supporter is making fun of CLARK'S appearance?

[JohnKleeb]

33. umm he wants to WITHDRAW

There is a difference. I dont care for the looks bashing but who cares how DK looks. I dont neither do I care how Clark looks. He plans to withdraw not overturn.

[Dookus]

36. well call it whatever you want...

but I'm of the mind that a nation ought to honor its treaties if it wishes to be respected in the world.

[diamondsoul]

84. Dookus, we WOULD honor our treaties.

Kucinich gets inagurated and announces he's given the United Sates' 6 month notice of withdrawal from NAFTA and the WTO. During that 6 months, those treaties are still in effect, however, Kucinich and Congress can set about writing new replacement treaties to be proposed at the end of that 6 month withdrawal period. If he can give Congress a strong enough kick in the arse, they could concievably have them ready for presentation in 3 months, leaving 3 more months under NAFTA and WTO to hammer out negotiations over the replacement treaties.

Here's how I view it, a treaty is nothing more than a legal contract between nations. Legal contracts are voided and rewritten all the time, ask any contract attorney! That's what Kucinich proposes to do, and in a legal sense it is really the only rational way to fix what is wrong with NAFTA. Like any overlapping contract situation (whihc is essentially what NAFTA and the WTO are), if you break the conditions of one, you've voided your contract. WTO does not allow for new conditions to be set forth in NAFTA so we're forced to void one or both contracts just to fix what isn't right. The simplest way around that dilemma is to legally withdraw accordingto the terms of the treaty and then start working on new treaties.

[_NorCal_D_]

82. The specific words Kucinich

uses are 'cancel NAFTA and the WTO'. That hardly sounds like a simple withdraw.

After fighting this illegal war and angering our allies, the last thing we should do is pull out of trade agreements. This would send yet another negative message to the rest of the world. Instead we should take as many steps as possible to make trade more fair and equitable, even if that means that prices of goods go up.

Destructive protectionism and neo-isolationism are just not the ways to go.



On Edit: Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot that Kucinich has to say, though this is one issue where is disagree with him.

[Solomon]

30. You all kill me with the we're gonna fix Iraq shit. It means we gonna

kill all the Iraqis who we don't like. Damn. They gotta assimilate in their own damn country.

[maha]

62. Depends on who's doing the fixing

As long as Bush is in charge it will indeed amount to killing all the Iraqis we don't like.

However, Kucinich is just plain wrong that we can pack up and go home and leave the mess we made with no consequences. And that's why he's last on my list of Democrats I want to get the nomination.

[Zuni]

67. Kucinich wants to do things too quick

I agree to an extent. I like DK, and some of his ideas. He is certainly not last on my list.
But pulling out of NAFTA, the WTO and Iraq immediately would be disastrous. Believe me, I would love to wake up in the morning and read that NAFTA is over, but so many jobs are tied into it all over the continent.
We have an obligation to help rebuild Iraq. We also have an obligation to provide order since there is no functioning government. I want the troops home as soon as possible, but not if it means we abandon Iraq.

[maha]

74. Well, OK, Lieberman is worse.

However, I think just from what the ten candidates said in the debate last night, pretending I didn't know anything else about them, I would have put DK last.

I agree with your views on NAFTA and the WTP and Iraq.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. You Are Either Ignorant or Deliberately Spreading Misinformation

:puke:

See post #21!

DTH

[kiahzero]

48. k, we'll try this again

Apparently what flies on /. doesn't fly here - adjusting my post accordingly.

Realistically, pulling out of Iraq isn't an option. Bush put us in a crappy place; we screwed up the country, and know we have to spend the money to fix it. It's not an issue of wanting to, it's an issue of needing to. Remember Afghanistan after 1979? I bet that's what'll happen if we pull out of Iraq.

As for being an architect of the plan, to wit, that was simply an analysis, not an actual official White House document. Then again, I haven't seen any substantiation of this claim, so it may not even be true. However, as far as I'm concerned, it's better to try and steer the freight train, rather than stand by and criticize as it bowls over innocents.

We're supposed to care about the people of Iraq - as far as I'm concerned, it's disingenuous to leave them to their fate after we've bombed the hell out of their country.

[jayfish]

58. If You Would have Listend To Gen. Zinni (Ret.) On Nightline

last night, you would have learned that the US military has had a warplan on the shelf since the day Iraq signed the cease fire after the first Gulf War. That plan was dusted off and revised every two years. It wouldn't be surprising at all if pieces (see battle plan) were indeed authored and reviewed by Clark. But the big question is... so what, that was his job.

Jay

[Zuni]

69. He was in European command, not central command

He never had any command involving the ME.

But then again, reviewing contingency plans is not the same as ordering a unilateral invasion of a soverign state.

[maha]

61. Neither was Al Sharpton

I never realized until last night how much Dennis Kucinich looks like Martin Short. I think it's the ears.

[Zuni]

63. neither was Clark

he retired in 1999

[Kahuna]

73. Neither is Clark. Dennis made an ad hominem attack...

based upon what? Please present this so called plan Clark authored so that we can discuss it. My guess is that it is something that we have all heard before. Clark is a military analyst. Shock! Surprise! Gasp! He has all along the way given both critiques and advice for how the administration should proceed. Some of these critiques have been his personal views and some as an analyst. So please produce the "plan" that Dennis who clearly doesn't like or respect Clark referred to so that we can judge for ourselves.

[_NorCal_D_]

79. I sincerely doubt Clark

had any major role in that. By that time, he had retired and was working for CNN right?

[JohnKleeb]

12. at least he stands up for what he believes in

[Birthmark]

14. And I admire that

However, that doesn't seem to be resonating with many people. I like Dennis a lot. Nothing would delight me more than to see his campaign catch fire. But I'm not prepared to trash the other candidates in an effort to make DK look better. That helps no one.

[Must_B_Free]

16. Dennis himself was the one who mentioned about CLark

being one of the Iraq war architects.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. THAT IS COMPLETE BS

Clark was NOT one of the Iraq war architects, you are completely misinterpreting DK's (unconfirmed) comments. DK CLAIMED Clark was one of the authors of a July 2003 paper that discussed the post-war period, and that's it.

Please, give me a break!

DTH

[Birthmark]

26. That's OK

Dennis, you, and I are all entitled to our own opinions. We can even have differing opinions without hating each other.

[JohnKleeb]

34. I am not trashing am I

[Birthmark]

40. No, you are not.

But you are aligned in this discussion with someone who is. I hereby declare you EVVVIIIIIIILLLLL! Just kidding, I lost track of who I was responding to in that post. You have my apology, sir.

[Dookus]

15. no argument here...

I respect Kucinich. I disagree with him on some things, but I think he has integrity.

But he's still polling at 1%.

[JohnKleeb]

35. You see I dont give a damn about the polls

Of course to completely ignore them is wrong but I am not gonna flock to the most popular because hes popular, no I wont do that. I support who represents my vision. This aint about money, its about doing well for the people. Thats based on a Wellstone quote.

[Toucano]

43. I love Dennis!

And I hope this national exposure will help him return one of Ohio's Senate seats to the D column someday. I think that's where he can do the most good.

He is one of the few clean politicians in the world. I am glad he's in this race.

Sorry, this is off topic, but it seemed like a good place to put it.

Cheers!

[Kahuna]

93. John.. I think the world of you..

I know that you are very young. But you are wise beyond your years....except in one thing. No candidate who is perceived as anti-military will ever have a shot at becoming president in America. Americans are generally PROUD of our military might. They are not prepared to give that up.

Americans overwhelmingly want to have a superior military. Telling Americans that you will severly cut back on the military, especially in a "time of war" is not the recipe for success in a presidential election. It's always been that way and will not change for this election cycle.

[robbedvoter]

81. Such as the burning flag amendment? nt

[Kahuna]

92. I like Dennis too...

But I know from years and years of electoral experience a candidate who is perceived as anti-military will never in a zillion years get elected in America.

I also know that a candidate who is perceived as a complete and utter socialist will not get elected in America.

[Zorra]

96. Yeah, it's too bad..

that the right wing media is so afraid of him that they won't give him any exposure. Whoever gets the most exposure from the media right now is the DLC choice for the nomination. And it's not Howard Dean.

[Birthmark]

4. Perhaps you need an eye exam?

Clark looked fine to me. I also wonder how you know that Dean has peaked? Magic 8-ball tell you?

Al's not going to run. Deal with it.

[Must_B_Free]

6. *sigh*

.

[maha]

65. Ever heard "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"?

Clark is easily the handsomest Dem candidate (not an endorsement). Kucinich looks like Martin Short as a gnome.

You see what you want to see.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. and Gore would still beat your candidate in any poll

if you had any sense you would be trying to get him to run. I mean, it is all about polls isn't it?

[Dookus]

24. I prefer

to back a candidate who WANTS to run.

[Birthmark]

28. That may be true now.

Will it be true a month from now, or a year from now? We don't know. What we do know is that Clark (and nine others) are running and Al is not. I'm working with what exists; not what I might hope could possibly come true. I find it to be a real time saver. :)

[Cheswick2.0]

44. you comment was unessesary

No need to make Kerry like remarks about dealing with it or getting over it.

Since you are the one that quoted a poll figure for DK, I see no reason for you to be talking about what Gore's polls would be in a year. What will DKs polls be in a year? What will Clarks or anone elses.

[Birthmark]

45. Oh, I'm sorry.

Should I email my posts in advance so that you can tell me what's necessary and unnecessary. I mean, I'd hate to post something that didn't meet your obviously high standards.

[Dookus]

47. No...

*I* posted a poll figure for DK. It was from today's Zogby.

You jumped the conclusion that because I posted that, I must believe that we should support the candidate with the highest poll number. That's an incredible leap of logic.

My point is simply that Kucinich, after months in the race, is not going anywhere.

I'm just pointing out a simple fact.

[JohnKleeb]

37. Ches really like what you did with your sig

:thumbsup:

[Julien Sorel]

7. LOL

Dean peaked too early and CLark is a flop. This thing is wide open for Dennis Kucinich, or perhaps Al Gore will come to his senses and take his seat.


What's the opposite of a flame bait post?

[starscape]

8. any other candidates you want to rule out on appearance?

What are you, a 13-year-old girl? Unbelievable. Does this really deserve its own thread?? LOL

[Must_B_Free]

10. PLease, he was a flop!

He admitted he has NO EXPERIENCE! and he's already pretending he is going to be president! "My Administration will come up with an Economic plan in 5 days" - what an excuse for an answer.

I feel for all you suckers who bought into this obvious rube.

[eileen_d]

11. aw, come on...

I like the "hunched back" argument better.

[Dookus]

13. OMG...

he ADMITTED it??!

I thought he had planned to pretend he was a 4-term senator.

[Cush]

18. "My adminstration"

um, they all say stuff like that

[juajen]

19. I'm not falling for anybody!

That said, you are being totally unfair to a dem candidate, and please no idiocy about whether he is a dem because of pug votes or support. This is America and you are allowed to change parties. As Tweety said tonight, pugs didn't complain when Reagan changed parties, so they shouldn't be hypocrits about a military man who had to serve many administrations in a non-partisan way.

I'm willing to give Clark the benefit of the doubt, and I know many, many people who are thrilled he's in the race; some of them republicans, most dems.

I am a Kucinich supporter and I do love Dennis, but, I, too, would like to know more about this "July report" that has everybodies panties in a twist.

On Edit; Who the hell are you to declare "Clark a flop" and just what are your credentials? Lousy thread topic and undeserving of a dem.

[Kahuna]

95. And what if Clark did write a plan for post war Iraq???

What could possibly be insidious about that?

[maha]

64. You support Kucinich

... and you call ME a rube?

[Kahuna]

94. And Dean said having visited 50 countries gives him...

foreign policy experience. At least Clark admits his obvious limitations. Some other candidates should learn from that.

[SEAburb]

17. let's have an anti-abortionist represent the party, DK is so appealing

to the base.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. Seaburp, your comment about DK looks a lot like a lie

and I know that is not what you meant. You know he has changed his position on Choice. He made a very sincere reversal of his former position. The one thing you can't accuse DK of is being dishonest. I wasn't sure if he was the stealth pro-life candidate, but have come to beleive that he can be trusted to mean what he says.

[RichM]

31. Cheswick - I know this is very peculiar, but...

I'm beginning to grow rather fond of you! :pals:

[SEAburb]

32. I heard him say, he wouldn't nominate a anti- abortion judge, not

that he's became pro-choice. And I didn't buy it, Tweety had him squirming like a worm and DK wasn't believable.

[JohnKleeb]

39. look at his website

why cant you buy it? Surely you forgive Al Gore and Bill Clinton once anti abortion now pro choice.

[SEAburb]

42. DK's body language is the reason I didn't buy it

Tweety called him out on the issue and DK couldn't respond with conviction.

[diamondsoul]

49. That would be WRONG.

What dear old tweety did was attempt to change what Kucinich said to mean what tweety wanted it to mean.

No, Kucinich can't respond with conviction to something he never said. Read the transcript before you say things like this.

"KUCINICH: OK. Thanks, Chris. I think criminalization of abortion would set this country back.

MATTHEWS: Who is proposing criminalization of abortion?

KUCINICH: Actually, Congress has been increasingly moving in the direction.

MATTHEWS: Who supports criminal punishments for abortion.

KUCINICH: Congress has been increasingly moving in the direction towards criminalization.

MATTHEWS: Name a U.S. congressperson.

KUCINICH: It’s a fact.

MATTHEWS: Name a Congressperson who supports putting people in jail for having an abortion. Name one.

KUCINICH: Trent Lott, at the beginning of this Congress, stated that it was the number one agenda for his, the legislative agenda to move forward to make abortion illegal.

MATTHEWS: No, you said to put them in jail, to criminalize abortion. Name a member of Congress who wants to-name any member of Congress in either party who says put a person in jail for having an abortion. Name one.

KUCINICH: I campaigned for Congress in 1996 against an opponent who was backing a constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal. And what I’m saying that it’s important in this country-

MATTHEWS: You didn’t say that. You said criminalize it. You said put a person in jail for having an abortion. Do you believe any member of Congress wants to do that?

KUCINICH: Well, I think there are members of Congress who want to do that. That’s absolutely right.

MATTHEWS: Name one.

KUCINICH: This isn’t about naming one."

Now you show me what's wrong with any of the above, and here's a hint, it isn't coming from Kucinich. Who, btw, DID respond with conviction until your pal tweety refused to let him say anything that wasn't the name of a Congressperson.

[JohnKleeb]

50. So you judge him on that one issue and thats it with him

Well at least you arent blaming him of all things for the war in Iraq. Like what I see in politics and campaigns. Tweety is an asshole if you didnt notice and from what I see from diamond below it appears what I said is valid, Tweety is an ass.

[diamondsoul]

52. It's an old, underhanded and unethical debate trick-

and one no serious, self-respecting journalist would resort to. You take a valid statement and change the words gradually and just enough to confuse the opponent and onlookers, then force them to defend YOUR statements versus what they actually said.

People who engage in debates on a regular basis, and especially online, recognize it pretty quickly but not everyone expects that kind of crap from a television interview. I certainly wouldn't have if I hadn't read the transcript.

[maha]

77. Yes, it's an old trick.

Whoever started this thread used that very trick to discredit Clark.

And the moral is, don't dish it out unless you're prepared to take it back.

[diamondsoul]

83. Agreed since the thread title

in no way reflects what Kucinich said or implied.

I was a little bothered by the mention last night when I saw Kucinich make the statement, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect it was a decision in keeping with Clark's long-standing determination to support our field soldiers.

Still I think we citizens should be putting the pressure on for that document to be made public. I honestly do not think Clark having assisted with it was the only reason Kucinich brought it up.

My suspicions after reflecting on this? This document is somehow important to the electorate. Kucinich can't speak about the details for secutiry reasons or something along those lines, so he went around that by making a statement in the debate that he hoped would pique public interest and curiosity and turn up the heat. I believe if he could do it and still manage to stay in politics, Kucinich would be the loudest whistle-blower on capitol hill today. This was his way of making a little tweet just loud enough for the people to hear.

[maha]

76. So it's OK for DK to flip flop

on abortion, but if Wesley Clark didn't know the Bush-Cheney Regime is evil until some time after March 2001, that's different?

[Terwilliger]

80. Abortion is a long-term hard issue...everybody knew BushCo were fucknuts

I trust Kucinich to "flip-flop" on this issue. I think Clark is a pandering liar who's part of the MIC he claims to be in favor of "putting curbs" on.

[maha]

85. No sale.

Either you respect women to make decisions for themselves about their own bodies, or you don't.

I can forgive a politician who takes a middle-ground position, like calling for restriction on late-term abortion. But anyone who was anti-choice in his adult life is suspect.

[diamondsoul]

86. Actually, I think the question raised by this topic

is did Clark know they were evil in July of 2003 when the document Kucinich mentioned was presented to Congressmembers.

Also, when Kucinich decided to alter his position on abortion he was not considering running for President, and in fact the change came about a full year before the subject of the Presidency had even been broached to him. Clark, otoh, was considering whether to run for the Presidency in July of 2003.

What changes the meaning of Clark's amenability towards Bush & Co. is the fact that he is running for the Democratic Presidential nomination. As a strong admirer of General Clark, yes, it does bother me that he is still playing the familiar military politics game with people I consider to be domestic enemies of my country.

[chookie]

90. IS it possible?

Is it possible to be a Bush-Cheney supporter AND a Friend of Bill? If that's true, then EVERYONE has a reason to hate Wes. /sarcasm off

Captain, Captain! You CAN'T MIX pro-Bill and Pro-Bush -- it's going to explode!!

[JohnKleeb]

38. so having a general who we just found out recently was a dem is ok

btw I disagreed with him on that but it was PRINCIPLED did you hear about him supporting the war, the death penalty, or cutting services to poor families. No because he didnt. Thats a principled stance, thats what some of my family believes.

[Gman]

23. GD stayed cleaned up for what, a week?

before crap like this thread has creeped back in.

[Syrinx]

41. I'm undecided on Clark, but I don't care what he looks like

I thought he was considered good-looking by those who enjoy looking at males.

I love Kucinich, but he will never be president. I'd vote for him in the general election in an instant, but never in the primary.

[Andromeda]

46. Clark was not a flop.

He sounded intelligent and was knowledgeable about most of the important issues which surprised me because he entered the race so late. I don't attribute all this diabolical nonsense to Clark like some of you people do. Give the guy a chance and if he can cut the mustard he'll win, if he can't then he won't win.

Before you start jumping to conclusions about Clark maybe you need to do a little research on your own instead of taking what somebody tells you at face value or by getting your news from a questionable or biased source. There's a lot at stake here and nobody is above giving a little jab here and there, not even DK. Dennis isn't a saint and just like the other candidates, he wants to win and will use what he can to get ahead.

For crying out loud, think, you guys. All the candidates are going to bash each other---it's called POLITICS. There's nothing inherently dishonest about it because it's all part of the process.

May the best man/woman win.

[Must_B_Free]

88. "May the best man/woman win."

*sigh*

- he's not running
- he doesn't want to run
- he's a loser
- he's a liar
- he's boring

(You can't mention Al Gore without all the defact talking points.)

[diamondsoul]

89. In all fairness Gore IS boring!

I can't help it, he's dull as a fence-post. Great candidate and I so wanted him to be in the Oval Office, but damn did he bore me to death!

[ryharrin]

51. Pulling out that old gem about Dean peaking too early again?

How about you wait until the end of this quarter and the corresponding fundraising numbers to talk about how much momentum he has.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roguevalley]

54. what shallow objections, IMO. I would rather not like him for his views

etc rather than this. Of course, that is your right.

[Pepperbelly]

55. LOL

What debate were you watching?

If you were watching the same one I watched, please send me some of what you are smoking.

[Padraig18]

57. Me, too!

I support Dean, but I think General Clark acquitted himself well.

[Skittles]

56. SPEAK FOR YOURSELF

I thought he did very well and there's nothing creepy about him.

[maha]

59. Dennis Kucinich will never get the nomination.

IMO he came in dead last in the debate last night.

[Rowdyboy]

60. Actually, Clark, Dean, Graham and Edwards ROCKED!

Kerry, Braun, Sharpton, and Kucinich were good
Gephart and Lieberman didn't self-destruct.

Best looking group of Dems I've seen since 1976 (Carter, Bayh, Udall, Jackson, Church, Brown, Harris, Scranton and George Wallace).

[indigo32]

66. Weird

everyone in my household... myself included, thought he did very well. Though so did Dean, MB, and Graham (IMO). Others in my house though Geppie did well...but it didn't sell with me. Just goes to show ya...it's all relative.

[CMT]

70. I don't think Dean will peak until

November 3, 2004--the day after the election when he sends Bush packing back to Crawford. :)

[Pepperbelly]

98. I think he peaked a month ago ...

:shrug:

I guess we just disagree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. I Like Dennis Kucinich

and most of his supporters....

They can attest to that....

But your gratuitous remarks about General Clark diminish you more than they can ever diminish the General...

They also alienate Clark folks from Kucinich foks....

Hence, the not productive ridicule of DK in this thread...


Perhaps that was your intention....

Peace

03

Brian

[birdman]

75. Wide open for Kucinich ?

I'm sorry DK is a good guy but he has about the same
chance of being President as I do.

In other words he has none.

I'm so glad that Eisenhower warned America about
that military-industrial gray hair.

:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[proghead]

87. Very funny post!

hahahah!

[im4edwards]

91. I'm with you 'Free

no offense but I simply don't see the Clark is good looking thing, he is creepy a la John Astin as Gomez Addams in the TV Addams Family. When he gets his eyes normaled out then he looks like Mr Rogers.

And I don't think his debate perfomance was very good either given the months of free time he's had to get an act together with the benefit of already having all the others hands laid out. He looked like he'd practiced for 9 days or less.

[Kahuna]

97. Clark's face is very symetrical... Ala JFK and

Johnny Depp. There are many more examples but these two will suffice. If you don't think Clark is a handsome man, maybe you should see your eye doctor. :D

[Must_B_Free]

99. I guess I was surprised at how big his head actually is

It kind of hangs in front of his large frame like a crane neck. The Gomez Adams observation is spot on. He's maybe not as bad as I thought