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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:02 AM
Original message
A cancer on the presidency .....
In the past week, there has been a growing awareness in the United States that the Plame scandal ranks with the two largest and most significant presidential disgraces of our time: Watergate and the Iran-Contra sacandals. Today, I would like to take a few minutes to start a discussion about the similarities between Plame and Watergate.

Often, in discussing Watergate, older DUers will note that "it isn't just the original criminal activity that catches up to an administration, it's the attempt to cover it up." And that is true, to a large part. Actually, the events of Watergate, as they came to be understood some 20 years later, could have brought the Nixon administration tumbling down. And, while it took 20 years for the public to find documents (tapes included), a House Committee could have accessed them quickly.

Has there been an attempt to cover up the criminal activities of some high-ranking White House officials in the Plame case? Let's take a look, shall we? Perhaps we could begin with a curious quote found on page 360 of Joseph Wilson's book, "The Politics of Truth":

"We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one," a senior White House official was quoted in the 12-5-03 "Financial Times" as saying about the administration's efforts to "resolve" the Plame investigation before Attorney General Ashcroft recused himself from the case. Could it be that Fitzgerald and the grand jury are interested in uncovering who called the earthmovers in?

That term -- senior White House official -- seems to keep popping up.Seems like that moldy man Robert Novak used the same term to describe the sources of his information on Plame being a CIA operative. For fun, let's see if we can find any qualified source who can explain what the term "senior official" means!

"Usually, the term senior official refers to a vice president, cabinet officer, or top White House aide," writes John Dean on page 170 of his wonderful book, "Worse Than Watergate." Gish, it sounds as if he could be descibing the actual criminals who we discussing. Let's look at the next sentence in the book, to see if he indeed is: "On July 17, Time published the same story {* as Novak}, attributing it to 'government officials,' and in a later story the Washington Post confirmed that two officials had called around trying to stir greater interest in the planted story."

Still, many of Karl Rove's supporters are pointing out that he did not tell Matt Cooper what Valerie Plame's favorite color was, or her favorite Beatle album, so he clearly did not know her status .... even though he spoke to Cooper as a supe "double secret" source. Did those senior White House officials have any idea that Valerie was more than a secretary at CI? Let's take a look at something published but 5 days after Mr. Cooper's contribution to the effort to keep America safe.

On July 22, Newsday's Washington Bureau notes: "Valerie Plame ... works at the agency on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity..." Does that clear up the republican confusion? Do we need more? Let's try this, from the same article: according to "a senior intelligence official" Plame worked in the "Directorate of Operations (as an) undercover officer."

Once these senior White House scum, er, officials knew that they had made a serious mistake, and were going to possibly face consequences, they began to organize a cover-up. Keep in mind, folks, that only guilty people attempt to cover up their activities. If the administration was confident it had done no wrong, there would have been no cover-up. But, you may ask, do we have some fun quote that indicates there was a cover-up? Something besides the earthmovers?

"The known facts -- that the activities involved two (or more) senior officials -- indicate that there is evidence of a criminal conspiracy. That criminal conspiracy is ongoing, and now involved with covering up the initial crime, thus creating secondary transgressions. (Sound familiar?) The federal laws of conspiracy, along with the federal laws dealing with obstruction of justice, are among the most far reaching of the federal criminal laws. Whether they know it or not, the Bush2 White House -- given this active and ongoing criminal activity -- had dangers it has never dreamed possible by not ending this matter itself. It is only going to get worse before it gets better." ( Worse Than Watergate; John Dean; pages 175-6)

Oh, no! This sounds terrible for the administration! Almost like someone needs to go in to the Oval Office and say the following to President Cheney and his wonderful tumbling chimp, Uncurious George:

"I think there is no doubt about the seriousness of the problem we've got. We have a cancer within, close to the presidency, that is growing. It's growing daily. It's compounded, growing geometrically now, because it compounds itself." That infamous quote came from John Dean duuring his March 21, 1973 meeting (10:12 - 11:55 am) in the Oval Office with President Nixon and H.R. Haldeman. When it appeared Nixon, who is a far cry sharper than the current industrial sludge occupying the White House, wasn't fully grasping the implications, Dean laid it out this way: "What really troubles me is one, will this thing not break some day and the whole thing -- domino situation -- everything starts crumbling, fingers will be pointing. Bob will be accused of things he has never heard of and deny and try to disprove it. It will get real nasty and just be a real bad situation. And the person who will be hurt by it most will be you and the Presidency ..."(See: "The Presidential Transcripts": published by the Washington Post with commentary by Bob Woodward, Carl Bernstein, Haynes Johnson, and Lawrence Meyer; Dell Books; 1974; these quotes from pages 99 and 115.)

Likely now, the DU readers are depressed to realize that this administration, as much or more as Nixon's, can be viewed as having what John Dean described as "a cancer on the presidency." But didn't the White House, way back 33 years ago, attempt to protect the presidency? And could that series of actions shed any light on how we should view today's delicate situation? Perhaps we should consider some information made available from the research of Fred Emery. He wrote the 1994 book and accompanying 5-part tv series shown on the Discovery Channel, "Watergate." Much of the following comes from his incredible work, which allowed the public access to tapes and documents that had never been seen or heard by the public.

On a 6-20-72 tape, Nixon made a strange comment to his Rovian friend, Chuck Colson: "If we didn't know better, would have to thought it was deliberately botched." Nixon was talking, of course, about the Saturday, June 17th break-in at the Watergate. At the time, few were aware that James McCord, Jr, a retired CI operative with years of experience in "burglaries," had left a series of doors taped in a manner that led two undercover police officers to the exact office where the burglars were hiding.(The significance is important to understand: the burglars could have walked out any of the doors had they been left untaped, because they were inside; McCord's actions clearly indicate "it was deliberately botched.")

Emery notes that, "On Wednesday, June 21, the cover-up suddenly moved to take on what would be its final shape." (page 182) Tapes that were newly released at the time of his book show that Ehrlichman was advocating a plan to have Liddy take the full blame for Watergate. Nixon is clearly interested. Haldeman notes that the attractiveness of this plan "is that you establish an admission of guilt at a low level, rather than just a presumption, instead of imply guilt at the highest level, which I tell you, they're trying very hard to do; I'll tell you, the press ..." Nixon is getting the picture: "the focus goes back to keep the scandal away from the White House."

But they make a huge error: rather than recognize that McCord has set them up, they fear Liddy. None of these administrators has been around a man of his nature before. Haldeman tells Nixon that Mitchell
fears Liddy will not take the full blame (although as history shows, he was both willing and able to, and the Ehrlichman plan might have put history on another course). Mitchell was "likely involved" in the Watergate plans, Haldeman tells Nixon, and is "a little bit afraid because of Liddy's instability ..."

The alternative plan -- to have CI tell the FBI to back off -- becomes the accepted route of the cover-up. By 11:30, John Dean is in the FBI's acting director's office. Gray will be a willing participant in the cover-up, and his actions will outrage Mark Felt.

CREEP attorneys tell the attorney for Alfred Baldwin, McCord's associate in the Committee to Re-Elect the President, and in the Watergate break-in, that they no longer consider Baldwin worth their investment in protecting.

"My lawyers came out and brought me into an office and said there is a lot we have to do here," Baldwin says on the 1994 television series shown on the Discovery Channel. " 'They are not going to acknowledge you even exist. They are disowning you. They have no concern for you. They are not going to supply a lawyer for you as long as you can't identify Mitchell or you can't identify any one else from the White House. They don't care about you.' " When his attorneys explained that, they recommended he talk to the FBI. The US attorney who would be prosecuting the Watergate case would, as Emery notes, get his first chance to hear from an "insider witness."

Emery's appreciation for the complex turns of history is evident when he describes a "faraway event .... that no one realized might have much significance." The long-time chair of the House Judiciary Committee, a long-time Nixon friend named Emmanuel Celler, was upset in a democratic primary by an "unknown insurgent, Elizabeth Holtzman" (page 185) Celler would have gone the extra mile to make sure the House of Representatives would not have held impeachment hearings. Actually, at that time, few people considered those hearings even a remote possibility, althougha citizen's group took out a full-page ad in the New York Times demanding exactly that! (Heads up, DU!)

On June 22, Nixon addressed the White Housepress corps. There was only one question about Watergate. Nixon gave an answer that I think DUers will find familiar:

"... As Mr. Zieler has stated, the White House had no involvement whatever in this particular incident. As far as the matter is now concerned, it is under investigation .... I will not comment on those matters, particularly since possible criminal charges are involved."

On June 23, Hurricane Agnes hit the Washington DC area hard. Emery notes: "The Potomac hit record flood levels, National Airport was closed, and John Dean in Alexandria, Virginia, had to sandbag his home against the rising tide. With hindsight, the omen was unmistakable." (page 194)
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. A cancer on the presidency: george w chimp.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Is there an "Alexander Butterfield" taping system in the WH ?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wouldn't that be great?
I suspect they've learned that little lesson.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. and that is why they got the Western WH in crawford
notice how many big players meet down there on the pig farm.

thnks H20 Man for another great post :toast:

peace
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Yes, it is still functional and much upgraded.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. I always enjoy reading your threads.
Per usual, you have hit the nail on the proverbial head, so to speak. GOOD WORK. Kicked and nominated.

:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thank you.
I look forward to reading your responses to these posts. I think that this thread sums up some of what is occuring today in Washington.

One of the things I think is important is that we not feed into the "good golly gosh, the republicans are calling Wilson a liar! How do we react?" horseshit. Even if this appears on a DU thread, because some innocent soul is confused, we should react simply by saying it is baloney, and put the focus back on the White House.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Total agreement.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 11:27 AM by im10ashus
Them calling Wilson a liar is a little like the pot calling the kettle black. It's the same tactics they have used over and over again. It might have worked in the past but now it's time for them to own up to the truth - for a change.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. A Kickin' Article
And I truly appreciate what you said about Wilson. I am somewhat annoyed so see so many"is Wilson a liar?" threads popping up on DU. Whether the genesis of them is formed by innocence, or something else, it is time for it to stop. There has been far too much info here on DU to prove that Wilson is exactly who he presents himself to be. Enough! He nor V. Plame committed a crime here, and let's please not forget that what he did was tell the truth and it was the ENTIRE administration who lied us into war, and, much worse I'm sure (when the entire story is told). So, I hope everyone puts away the pug talking points and stops helping make to help Rove's specious defense.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Same here. AND I REALLY like your "heads up" suggestion
about that citizens group that took out a full-page ad in the NYTimes demanding the opening of impeachment hearings.

Maybe we should start a collection? Or somebody with an in at MoveOn.org could plant such an idea... It's something I'd certainly like to see, and I'd contribute to it MOST happily, also.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I Thought Of Pming You Yesterday
to say thank you. I still have that media contact list you put together for the original Plame thread and it came in very handy yesterday when Skinner sent out the first assignment for the Activist Corps. I didn't get to it then, so I will extend my thanks now.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. I think that people
would pitch in for a full-page ad. I sure would.
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Yes, despite the GOP machine Karl controls
we continue the focus exactly where it belongs.

While the GOP and their media pundits protect a man they fear, they and their talking points give license to and continue to be complicit in the betraying of America and her national interests.

I would definitely pitch in for a full-page ad.



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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. Impressive piece.
This bunch put a LOT more energy into crafting ways to cover their tracks. The crimes run so very deep. When I allow myself to fully acknowledge the BushCo/neoCON regime's degree of criminal corruption and the destructive fallout, I literally feel light-headed.

Can we afford to allow such an evil lot of men to remain in power? Will we do whatever it takes to prevent this situation from happening in the future? Isn't the United States of America and her people worth enough to be shielded from such monsters? Isn't the world worth shielding from such monsters?

The rule of law. We need the enforcement of the rule of law.

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick
:thumbsup: thanks
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. A "Where Are They Now" review series is in order.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 11:48 AM by Pithy Cherub
It is frightening to understand the mutation of the web of political relationships that go into staffing White Houses. Especially across time. (Excellent recap H2O Man)

Watergate & Post Era

Ford (VP, Pres.)
Bush Sr (CIA 1975)
John Negroponte (UN Amb.)
Rumsfeld (DoD 1975)
D. Cheney

Iran contra
Bush Sr
Cheney (DoD)
C.Weinberger
M. Ledeen (NSC Consultant)
O. North (NSC)
R. McFarlane (NSC)

Traitorgate et al
Bush jr.
Rumsfeld
Negroponte
Poindexter
Cheney
This is just a partial list off. The same ethos permeates all of it. The NSC and the National Security Advisor have continuously been in the thick of things! On edit: the columns did not translate...
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joanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. What can be done with Repukes controlling Congress?
Especially when you have morons like Hatch saying this is a "tempest in a teapot"?

Mid terms arent until next year. We have a long wait before any hope of a Democratic takeover.

;(
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. If you make it about an election, it becomes mere politics.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 02:19 PM by Pithy Cherub
This is about ethics, morals, good, bad wrong, right and the principles embedded in this country's democracy. What do we believe regardless of who is in charge.

It is an accountability moment for our Democracy, no less.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Sorry posted twice. delete
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 01:46 PM by Pithy Cherub
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. you forgot kissinger
(and poland)
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prairierose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. This so-called "presidency" is a cancer....
on the republic that was United States of America.
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plusfiftyfive Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. Such an interesting set of parallels!
The "Cancer on the Presidency" statement by John Dean back in 73 seems , so far, unstated, but,

"the White House had no involvement whatever in this particular incident. As far as the matter is now concerned, it is under investigation .... I will not comment on those matters, particularly since possible criminal charges are involved."

Where did I hear THAT one in the last 48 hours?

"Law and Order",the TV series named for that 1968 Nixon campaign slogan that backfired on Nixon himself, any experienced watcher of that series, or many other series that look at the behavior of the guilty party, would regognize the behavior we see in Rove and the White House these days.

But this is no simple innocent break-in to a Democratic Party office, this is no dalliance with a blue dress, this is the dastardly violation of the integrity, secrecy, security and sanctity of the identities of our finest civil servants, who pledge their lives and careers to protect us from harm, violated, it seems now, only for petty political motives.

Here's what three trustworthy REPUBLICANS have to say about this issue......(I know quoting REPUBLICANS is probably not a good idea, usually here, but I think this speaks for itself!)

http://www.alternet.org/story/23506

The agents, Larry Johnson, Michael Grimaldi and Brent Cavan, all of whom are Republicans, pulled no punches in their shared statement:


"We also want to send a clear message to the political 'operatives' responsible for 'outing' Mrs. Wilson. Such action was treacherous, if not treasonous...Such action has allowed the less attractive aspects of politics to supersede the Government's responsibility to protect the citizens of this nation and the individuals who serve in difficult, dangerous covert capacities. This has set a sickening precedent. The 'senior Administration officials' who did this have warned all U.S. intelligence officers and the intelligence community that any one individual may be compromised if providing information or factual analysis the White House does not like."
----

end quote.
AS long as Bush protects Rove, it is further evidence Bush knew and approved, and that national security may be further jeopardized by this administration for political "payback".

Time for the "Cancer in the White House" to be cut out, and that, IMO, goes all the way to the Prez, himself.
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napkinz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:10 PM
Original message
a cancer on the presidency ...







:silly:
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napkinz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. More ...


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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. I see one big difference between the current affair and Watergate.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 12:11 PM by gordianot
This entire mess is much more about media control, and the cover up is up front and center coming from the WH and not the media. Nixon had the good sense to stonewall and kept his cast of conspirators close. Carl Rove seems to think he can continue media spin and control everyone. We are in the middle of a public obstruction of justice campaign of unprecedented proportions. No need for secret WH tapes they are going straight to the public opinion and do not seem to care what distortions and lies they tell.

This time someone may just get their day in Court there are too many lies on the public record. In short they talk too much and it is too late to take it back.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. One more BIG difference
1800 soldiers didn't die because of Wategate.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Watergate = Vietnam WMD lies= Iraq (Bush war)
The bodies do pile up.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. nor did 100,000 civilians...
nor did it result in weakened national security or alienation of world allies
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. not to mention
impairing our REAL intelligence gathering capabilities which are important to our REAL national security.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Last night John Dean told Lou Dobbs
that it appears Bush is using a tactic that has proven successful for him many times in the past. To stall and stonewall while hoping for another big story to break and take the heat off.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I found that interesting....
Especially since some have contended that this is not the case. The fact that John Dean thinks so adds that much more creditability to the argument. That is precisely what they are doing. They've done it again apparently with the Downing Street Minutes as well...
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Yep. It's one of their favorite tactics. John Dean has a sort of dignity
you don't see much anymore. I wish he would surface more.

I remember his Watergate testimony, and how I sensed a deep moral courage in him despite all the bricks thrown at him. I admire him, and highly value his opinion.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. When I first heard this dude named Dean
was running for president, I thought it was John Dean, and I was like "HELL YEAH!"

But the more I learned about Howard, the happier I got.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. They're both ok in my book
I wish we had a man of genuine integrity in the WH. That's all I ask.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I hear ya
n/t
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Did someone within the CIA set up Rove?
McCord deliberately botched the Watergate break-in. Is it conceivable that someone within the CIA, someone well-trained in duplicity, had a little tete-a-tete with Rove and informed him of Plame's status after Wilson's NYT piece, knowing that Rove would not be able to resist engaging in petty revenge? (Knowledge is power.)

And what the hell can Rove do about it? He wouldn't dare point his finger at this person and say, "So-and-so gave me the name." To do so would implicate him as having foreknowledge of Plame's position and that she was a vital asset to U.S. security. To then leak her name to Novak, or any journalist, would fall within the parameters of treason under any definition, would it not?

bush and his cabal, with Rove at the helm, burned the CIA. Rove is not the only person in high places who can play mind games.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. The NSC is far more potentially dangerous than the CIA.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 01:37 PM by Pithy Cherub
The CIA was initiated under Truman and Congress has oversight. The CIA must seek funds and (for the most part) account for its actions. The CIA is also not the largest secret agency in the intel galaxy, look to the NSA (National Security Agency). Signals intercepts and communication networks and sattelite operations work through this agency. A great deal of it is controlled by the Defense Department.

The NSC was created under Truman. The law was revised in 1949 giving the President of the United States unilateral authority over it. Congress has no authority or oversight over its organizational design, budget or resources. The NSC has principals (Pres, VP, selected cabinet officers - SoS, DOD, CIA). Then NSC breaks off into sub-committees where they are tasked with portfolios. (Think WHIG.) The person responsible for the entire work product of this group is the NSA - National Security Advisor. Political operatives are or can be part of the NSA's core or sub-group. The president has the final say.

The NSC has access to highly highly classified eyes only material. Pricincipals from the NSC may have directions/orders or presidential findings that direct agencies like the Department of Defense and the CIA to undertake certain actions.

Many modern known scandals in our nation's history have been because this group, NSC, is completely under the control of the president. Ollie North worked for the NSC for Iran contra, Bush Sr was a prinicipal on the NSC during I/C. Rice was the NSA (National Security Adviser) running the NSC during bush Jr's failure of a first term. Stephen Hadley, the current NSA worked for Rice and Kissinger in current and prior NSC's. And it goes on and on and virtually no one knows.

Rove was within his purview to attend certain meetings of the NSC with the president's permission. This may be where this all hits paydirt, the members of 43's NSC.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. I'm wondering about this. (And thanks for another great post H2O man)
First, I've read enough H2O Man posts to think that he included the references to a possible Nixon set-up for a reason! And the parallel question is whether Rove was set up. (And this could apply to higher ups than Rove.)

What I want to know is, how many CIAs do we have? Are they the good guys or the bad guys? Does the CIA have two or more factions fighting for control?
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. Chuck Colson + Karl Rove + Lee Atwater
There's an interesting combination for anyone willing to do the research. Here's some points of interest though:


1. Each and everyone of these guys was connected to Watergate.

2. Lee Atwater was Rove's mentor and likewise Atwater was Rove's equivalent in -- you guessed it -- the Nixon White House.

3. Rove was a part of CREEP and the senior George H.W. Bush was supposed to have investigated him in 1972 in connection with his training seminars. (CREEP stands for the Committee to Re-Elect the President for those of you unfamiliar with the lingo.)

4. George H.W. Bush never followed through with his investigation and weeks later appointed Rove to chair a prominent organization, the College Republican National Committee (CRNC).

5. Lee Atwater took over Rove's job as executive director of the CRNC when Rove was appointed chair.

6. Lee Atwater went on to run George H.W. Bush's 1988 campaign for the presidency. His tactics stink to high heaven -- can everyone say, "Willie Horton"?

7. Chuck Colson served time in prison for his role in Watergate.

8. Chuck Colson was also part of the Nixon "task force" that went after John F. Kerry with the aide of John O'Neill back in the early 1970s.

... There's more on these guys DU, what else can you dig up?
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. I guess the moral of the story is ....
Give a Republican President 8 years and crime bound to happen.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Very astute observation, I'd say. n/t
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Give a Democrat 8 years, and they're bound to get
a blowjob.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. name a republican president
in the last 40 years who wasn't part of a nasty scandal.

I say give a republican president one day in office and there's bound to be something, at the very least swiping office supplies.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. great history lesson, thanks
I'm 38 years old, so my memory of Watergate as a 7 going on 8 year old is being angry that the hearings were interrupting my cartoons when I came home from school... but, it did sour me on Republicans for life.





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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kicked and recommended. n/t
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
30. I like it, H2O Man. As usual, most thought-provoking.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 01:55 PM by calimary
As I watched (and read the transcript of) little snotty's news briefing, visions of Ronald Ziegler wafted through my mind.

I hope and pray that your opening statement is correct - that more and more Americans are coming around about the Plame scandal - and yes, it's totally fair to call it a SCANDAL ranks up there with Watergate and Iran/Contra. In some cases, it may be the worst of all, however. I remember reading a report here, somewhere, yesterday (apologies, too, because my computer went down and I lost the link) that, if true, means kkkarl rove is now DIRECTLY responsible for an additional NINETY deaths, for having blown Valerie Plame's cover. Evidently, according to this report anyway, NINETY undercover operatives in the Ukraine have all been killed since she was outed. Presumably they were part of the network she built up over a twenty-plus year career - and they've all been rubbed out. When she was exposed, and the cover company Brewster-Jennings was therefore also exposed, so were they.

It's been speculated here that the Plame Affair feeds into the "fixing of the intelligence" in the DSMs as well. All roads lead to Rome - and to rove, it seems. And BELIEVE ME, with rove and bush joined at the hip as they are, you could bet your children's college tuition that bush knew what was going on from the get-go. As soon as it was ill-conceived in kkkarl's brain, you'd better believe bush was in on it. I bet they talked it over, chuckling at the sheer deviousness of it, while they were both taking a leak side-by-side in the men's room just off the Oval Office (presuming there is one) one afternoon - "hey, kimosabe, whaddya think of this?" "Shhheeee-it, turd-blossom, slick! Hey, go for it. What're they gonna do about it anyway?"

What did bush know, and when did he know it?

And one other thing, H2O Man, that I think we all should remember and take VERY MUCH to heart:

There IS indeed a cancer on the presidency.
WE are the cancer on the presidency.
And it IS growing stronger and more deadly every day.
The bigger we get, the smaller grow his prospects for a clean get-away.

Everybody, please remember (especially for all you "young 'uns" who aren't old enough to remember Watergate: It was the Republicans who put the final nails in Nixon's coffin. It was THEY who went to him, finally, to tell him his only alternatives were to jump before he was pushed, because he no longer enjoyed the support of the Congress (read: HIS PARTY).

Kicked and recommended!
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. kicked & recommended
another great post!

:toast:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Now is that not
a couple of Guinness stouts in those mugs? They look like an appropriate drink for the day!
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
35. Great post -- nominated
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. Terrific analysis
for us younguns who weren't there for watergate.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
50. Wow. I've got to rent that mini-series. Sounds excellent!
I was looking around and I couldn't find out where McCord is today, wikipedia's entry on him is brief. Has he ever spoken publicly about what specifically motivated him to deliberately botch the Watergate burglary? I'd love to hear his insight into what he thinks about the current scandal the White House is stonewalling.

So, who is McCord this time? Certainly not Rove. It can't be Abrams, he's a two-time loser when it comes to White House scandals. I guess we won't know until after this scandal reached its conclusion. Thanks for writing about that though, it's fascinating to learn about twists and turns I didn't know about.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. What Do You Think Of This Wayne Madsen Piece?
It connects Plame to Iran Contra.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. I think that it is great.
I note that DUers who participated in the Plame Threads had done a heck of a good job in connecting Plame with Iran-Contra.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. you mean this one?
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
<<snip>>
The word is that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has more than the Plame leak on his hands -- that his investigation now encompasses the criminal investigation of the Niger document forgeries and AIPACgate.

Meanwhile, another veteran of the Iran-contra scandal has surfaced in the Bush administration. He is Robert L. Earl who confessed to the FBI of stealing classified national security documents and then destroying them in the infamous White House midnight "shredding party" and PROFS email erasing fest overseen by Oliver North. Earl hammered out an immunity deal with independent special counsel Lawrence Walsh in return for his testimony against other criminal conspiracists. Iran-contra led directly into the office of Vice President George H. W. Bush and resulted in the convictions of North, National Security Adviser and former G. W. Bush Internet spying czar John Poindexter, and current National Security Council official Elliot Abrams.

Does Robert "Shredder" Earl's sudden appearance at the Pentagon mean another midnight shredding party is coming? (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, Mr. Fitzgerald)

Amid a major FBI investigation of criminal conspiracies involving lying about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, forged documents, Israeli espionage, and CIA leaks, perhaps Earl's expertise in document disposal and shredding is the reason why he is now the chief of staff for Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, who replaced chief Iraq war architect Paul Wolfowitz.
<<snip>>

I don't think too much of Madsen personally. His articles are always suspect to me. But he does make an interesting comparison here . . .
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Where Is My Link?
Seems I forgot it. Thanks for the save Lionheart.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
53. link to DU thread with Helen Thomas article . . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4093130

White House Follows Scandal Script For Rove
Assurances Of Innocence Change To Lack Of Comment
Helen Thomas, Hearst White House columnist

POSTED: 3:45 pm EDT July 13, 2005
<<snip>>
Scott McClellan, the president's chief spokesman, has found that public statements defending the White House can sometimes return to haunt him.

McClellan told reporters in the fall of 2003 that deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, the President George W. Bush's chief political adviser, had nothing to do with the public outing of Valerie Plame as a CIA officer.

However, Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, now says that Rove did in fact discuss Plame's CIA role with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper, but did not tell Cooper her name.

Luskin also said he had been assured by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald that Rove is not a target of a grand jury investigating the leak.
<<snip>>
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
56. How much would a full page ad in the NYT cost?
I'll start off by pledging $100 to the cause.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I'd pledge that, too.
Does anyone know?
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. I have no idea but I'm sure it is a LOT.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. The Cast Of Characters At The "Work-UP" Meeting
This is a wonderful interview with Wilson and brings up items not known or forgotten. For instance, what has gone unmentioned in past months is the second column Novak wrote exposing the name of the cover company V. Plame "worked for". And Pres. George H.W.Bush's feeling about the leak as expressed in a letter to Wilson.

<<<snip>>>
“But in retrospect looking at this, the natural group who would meet to discuss something like this would be the White House Iraq Group (WHIG).

Raw Story: Right, and the group includes Karl Rove as part of that main group of six.

Wilson: Yes, that would include Rove. I believe it is Rove, Karen Hughes, Libby, and others.

Raw Story: Also: Andrew Card, Mary Matlin and James Wilkinson as well as others who advised then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy Stephen Hadley.

Wilson: That would be the natural group because they were constituted to spin the war, so they would be naturally the ones to try to deflect criticism. Now, some of those people would have very high security clearances.

Raw Story: How many people would have known or would have actually had access to the knowledge of your wife’s NOC status outside of the CIA, including the Justice Department, Department of Defense and so forth? What would be the number, for example, of people “in the know?” cont…


http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Interview_Ambassador_Wilson_husband_of_outed_CIA_agent_sees_larger_Administration_ro_0713.html
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. I THINK ANALOGY TO TRAITORS IS BETTER..
Edited on Thu Jul-14-05 12:54 PM by flyarm
start with aldrich ames, john walker and hansen!
what karl rove did was undermine each and every cia agent..each and every fbi agent, each and every civil servant to our nation...rove is equally a traitor to the above spies who gave up secret information to other countries for their own benefit and to hell with US security...

rove is a traitor, he not only outed a cia noc..he outed the cover company she had set up, the wmd intelligence, her contacts and covert operators and possibly many now are burried with a bullet between their ears...

rove should be tried for treason ..period the end!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
60. Now Here's A Thought!
Scroll down to the 3rd article for this one, an article which makes the case that Fitz could and may be going after Rove for espionage.

<<<snip>>>
"But Rove's conduct certainly meets the far less demanding elements of the Espionage Act: (1) possession of (2) information (3) relating to the national defense (4) which the person possessing it has reason to know could be used to damage the United States or aid a foreign nation and (5) wilful communication of that information to (6) a person not entitled to receive it.
Under the Espionage Act, the person doing the communicating need not actually know that revelation could be damaging; he needs only "reason to know." Classification is generally reason to know, and a security-clearance holder is responsible for knowing what information is classified.

Nor is it necessary that the discloser intend public distribution; if Rove told Cooper -- which he did -- and Cooper didn't have a security clearance -- which he didn't -- the crime would have been complete.

And to be a crime the disclosure need not be intended to damage the national security; it is only the act of communication itself that must be wilful.

It's also a crime to "cause" such information to be communicated, for example by asking someone else to do so." cont.


http://www.billmon.org/
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