For the self proclaimed Moderates...

[Solon]

I'm an extremist.

For believing in Universal Healthcare. I'm a Socialist.

For believing that the people, through democratic government, should regulate business. I'm a Communist.

For opposing the Death Penalty, for the simple reason that no human, nor any human institution is perfect. I'm Pro-Felon.

For believing that every person has a right to have their vote counted fairly. I'm a Conspiracy Theorist.

For believing that the government should be transparent, and has to be accountable to the people. I'm Paranoid.

For believing we need to exhaust all avenues of diplomacy before military action. I'm a Peacenik.

For believing that the Wall of Separation of Church and State is to be unbreachable. I'm Anti-Christian.

For believing that the nation has flaws that need improving, both in foriegn policy, and domestic. I'm Unpatriotic.

For believing that when a citizen of this nation needs help to get back on their feet, we should help. I'm asking for a handout.

For believing that every American has the right to a gun, but that steps need to be taken to keep them out of criminal hands. I'm a Gun-Taker.

I'm an Extreme-Leftist, and I am proud of that label.

[Julien Sorel]

1. For making this post,

you're a straw man player.

[FDRrocks]

4. It's a straw man argument? or what?

b/c he stated his beliefs?

[Solon]

6. Straw man, where?

I'm just stating what I believe, and what people have called me because of those beliefs. No Straw man there.

[Wonk]

8. Not you, him. Nice post, imho (forgot to mention).

on edit: I don't think I've ever proclaimed myself as a moderate (on a side note)

on edit: For some reason I thought this was a reply to my other post, not his. It's getting late. Goodnight for tonight DU :boring:

[Wonk]

5. Description of Straw Man (speaking of straw men)

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[Julien Sorel]

11. LOL

You love your links to that site. His post is a series of straw men -- taking the most extreme positions of his opponents and pretending that they are the mainstream.


How many 'moderates,' for example, believe that people who believe in seperation of church and state are 'anti-christian?' In fact, that's the far-right, bible-belt position. Almost every single point in his post is taking the far-right position and pasting it on the moderates. That, my friend, is straw man.

There's a whole lot more to logic than linking to a web page with the definition of the alleged infringement.

[Solon]

15. Please read again...

Specifically the Title. SELF-PROCLAIMED MODERATES have called me that before. I have been called all those things, not by extreme rightists, or the Christian Right, but by people who consider themselves moderates. I'm simply stating that people will automatically try to label you as something you are not, simply because of preconcieved notions. Are any of my positions that radical? It's a serious question. I'm waiting for a response.

[Julien Sorel]

19. I believe I answered your 'serious question' above.

Do you believe these people are only 'self-proclaimed' moderates, or do you think they are really representative of moderates? In other words, do you think the term 'moderate' is merely a label, or do you think it is actually a collection of beliefs?

[Solon]

22. To be honest.

It's no more than a label, I personally have no idea what defines most "Moderates" other than that they call themselves such. Many are Liberal on most issues, but may disagree with most Liberals on one or two at most. That's the point, name an issue I presented above that you disagree with, or ask me about another and see if we disagree. I find that when discussing ISSUES with many moderates, that we agree, even if it is "Radical" and "Leftist". Its all about the stupidity of labels and the alienation that the right has done to fracture the left. Retake the language of debate and discorse, and find the commonalities between us and we will win the White House, and both houses of Congress.

[Julien Sorel]

25. Well, it's a little late in the day for me to get into

a discussion about what constitutes a 'moderate.' However, this post confirms what I said at the start: you're playing straw man by playing around with what constitutes the moderate positions.

Most of the positions you take would be perfectly acceptable to 'moderates,' and generally speaking only the extremists take the positions you ascribe to 'moderates,' 'self-proclaimed' moderates or otherwise. So, for another example, anyone who claims to be a moderate, and then says that someone who questions the government is 'un-patriotic' is probably either sadly misinformed, or stretching the truth about their true political leanings.

[FDRrocks]

2. Yay!

I agree, wholeheartedly.

We cannot bring a social democracy to this country, most likely, but we can do a hell of a lot better than the framework of "either far right republican or centrist democrat".

Sorry to reply, I'm not centrist, but I loved your post!

[Solon]

9. Thanks

though I will say, that I asked for "self-proclaimed" moderates, for the simple reason that many of these support the same issues I put above. The exception being regulation of business and corporations. We been down the road before, and look where it got us, think about the late 19th and early 20th centuries. You would think people would learn from history.

[FDRrocks]

10. I love you posts, Solon

each and everyone is a joy to read. You are an asset to this board, imo.

I don't think the middle is doing anything for us or the world (and the US is a huge influence on the world). We could have so much by now. But the hole in the sky is growing, and the radioactive dust is flowing. And people are dying. ARGH :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Solon]

12. Thanks again...

I wouldn't say it was a joy to read though, I'm trying to shorten them a little bit. So people aren't bored before the end.

[Dogmudgeon]

13. The longer focal-length

I don't mind "centrist democrats" one bit. Every political environment has one dialectic (or more) in action at any time.

Ours, right now, is "Conservative vs Very Conservative." I won't be too unhappy if it becomes "Liberal vs Radical".

Yeah, I'll vote Democratic next year no matter who runs, but my long-range push is for the left. A big, diverse, dynamic left. For about the next five or ten generations. You can't win 'em all, but you only have to win enough.

--bkl

[Solon]

17. That's true and I agree

Bear in mind, that real progress, and the positions we stand for, are the future. It may be slow, but if us "Radicals" keep agitating the "Center" the "Center" moves in our direction. That is how we have always done it historically.

[Dogmudgeon]

3. You, too?

I'm also a baby-killer, if it helps.

--bkl

[Solon]

7. Been called that too.

Simply because I believe a woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases, with no interferance from government.

Hell, once, I was called a race-hater, for supporting Affirmative Action. (I'm Irish BTW)

[DemExpat]

14. I'm proud of my Moderate stance.....

coming from 'Extreme-Left' in my youth.....

I still have ideals of more equal spreading of wealth, of intelligent government regulation of economy and business, of good health care and education available for all, of protection of voting rights, democracy, of military power used only as threat in extreme circumstances, for definite separation of church and state.....although I'm not for guns or free-for-all abortion rights.

But I've lived in a Social-Demcoracy for most of my life and have seen how 'far left' governments abuse power just as right-wing ones do, and how socialist policies become too expensive, too bureaucratic, too inefficient, too 'diverse' to be regulated and controlled, and too vulnerable to abuse......just like right-wing ones do in other areas.

What I believe in the most is the necessity for vigilant citizens - whatever government is installed....

Now I've learned to stick to the centrist view and vote for the candidate who comes CLOSEST to my ideals while retaining a good chance for electability.

And I now fight for my ideals at a more local, personal level or Non-governmental -Organization level.

But most of your ideals are ones I share! :kick:

DemEx

[Solon]

16. Define "Free for All" Abortions...

I simply want no government intereference in the lives of women. That is thier choice, and one that the government has no business in administering over.

[DemExpat]

18. I personally back abortions

for the first 10-12 weeks....after that I'm not on the Pro-abortion bandwagon....not for religious beliefs, because I'm not religious, but from my personal feelings about human (and all) life.

:hi:
DemEx

[Solon]

21. I guess we are on the same side here...

BTW I prefer the term, Pro-choice myself. Late term abortions are only performed in such a small percentage anyways that I barely view it as an issue. However, I would agree with you on this, with the exception of valid medical reasons, Late-Term Abortions should not be performed.

[Fish Eye]

30. putting your thoughts out

for all to see is great! It can lead to great debate or personal attacks.

IMHO: it is the radicals who say that any law concerning late term abortion is wrong and that passing laws is the fist step in abolishing all abortion. In label terms you are a "moderate" on that issue. This is not unlike the pro-gun people who view any law to control guns as a step towards abolishing the second amendment.

Don't worry to much about labels because we all have various opinions about variuous things and a healthy approach is to have different strategies for dealing with different issues.

It all is so complicated that it may seem easier to label something as this or that but it is worth the effort to see things in shades of grey not black and white.

[DemExpat]

20. I'm a moderate, yet I've been called a Commie as well as

Fascist Right-Winger! Depends on who you are communicating with....

:D
DemEx

[KG]

23. i won't drink the clark kool-aid; i was called a lemming leftist

like it was a bad thing! :)

[Solon]

24. Exactly my point.

Hell, I don't give a shit what people call me, labels are meaningless in such discorse, and only demean the ones calling you that. Most of the labels aren't even insults, as long as you view it as such. I'm "Radical", "Fringe", "Communist", "Socialist", etc, according to quite a few people I know, however, with the exception of Communist (I don't support revolutionary politics), none can be considered insults, at least to me personally.

[PAMod]

26. I commend you for knowing what you believe in

Actually, most Democratic moderates aren't too far off of your personal platform.

In many issues, it is more a matter of degree.

[union_maid]

27. I believe in all those things

A few years ago, however, I was called a lot of unpleasant names because I believed moderate Democrat was a so much better than any Republican in today's world that it stunned me that anyone who was left of center would not see that. That kind of thing left a bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths for some on the self-proclaimed left even when we share the same positions. I think that subesequent events have more than proved us right. I'm not a moderate in my ideal world view, but I'm more than happy to vote for a moderate Democrat because there's not only a difference, it's a radical difference right now.

[piece sine]

29. contrarians have it even worse than moderates!

Some of us like to poke around at the prevailing orthodoxy; like you said, no human is perfect. For challenging the positions of certain candidates here at DU, I'm been called a Freeper. For speaking-up for universal First Amendment protection, even if it's a Freeper site, I've been accused by another DUer of being a GOP spy (by personal e-mail to me). For stating that Saddam was just about the worse dictator on the planet, I caught sheer hell. Been banned from DU I think because I railed against a homophobia thread (but I did fight my way back, obviously)

So as I avoid a lockstep mentality and see the big picture, I catch a lot of grief. Always come back for more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. This Is A Great Thread

that needs to be kicked....

Let me preface my remarks by saying I describe myself at various times as a welfare state liberal, a traditional liberal, a center-leftist...

I have been called by some on this board a right winger and a Demnot(that's especially rich given my screen name)....

I agree with most of your positions with some small caveats... I remain ambivalent on both abortion and the death penalty because my Christian faith informs me to place a high value on human life.... There is inevitable tension on this and alot of issues between my civil liberterian impulses and my Christian faith.....In short, I'll take the Clinton position on abortion,"It should be safe, legal, and rare."

I am in favor of universal health care but I am not wed to any one plan to get there....

I am a small businessman and don't have problems with regulation... Like any system, capitalism needs a set of rules and guidelines , and a body to enforce it....

Where we diverge is I think your positions and mine are not attacked by folks in the middle but by folks on the far right and the far left....

Although I consider myself more than a tad bit to the left of center I do believe moderates are the most misunderstood and unfairly maligned group in America...

[jumptheshadow]

31. I would call you a Democrat

And because most of the moderates probably hold the same positions as you, I would call them Democrats, too.

[LWolf]

32. I guess I'm an extreme leftist, too.

I never really thought so; I always thought I was moderate. I guess I don't really understand the general assumption about those labels.

I don't know anything at all about "self proclaimed" moderates. The only difference I see at this point between dem moderates and dem leftists is not about issues. It's about the "E" word.

The leftists pick candidates who represent the direction they want the party and the country to take...to the left. They know that a huge percentage of registered voters don't vote, and that many eligible voters don't even register. They reach out to the disenfranchised, to pull them under the "big tent." The moderates want the same thing, but pick candidates that don't offer as significant a difference from moderate repub views. They are worried about swing voters. That the unnamed "rest of America" won't vote their way, and they'll lose. So they compromise to win. I hear "Candidate A is closest to what I really think, but I'm voting for candidate B because I think that's what the rest of America thinks." One group is focusing on the disenfranchised; one group is focusing on the swing vote. That makes me a leftist.

Just my perspective.

[Padraig18]

33. Am I a centrist?

I'm quite socially liberal, but I always want to know "How do we plan to pay for this?", even with programs I SUPPORT. Does my ability to add and subtract make me a hopless Neanderthal? Do I need therapy? :P

[Zuni]

34. I agree on every single point

I consider myself a moderate.