I was very disappointed by Kerry last night....

[edzontar]

I used to be a supporter.

I had crossed over to Dean some time ago, because I admire his strong stand against the war and overall straight-shooting, no-BS approach, which I consider to be the potential antitdote to Bushco and Dem-sell-out spin-and-pander politics.

But Kerry had always been my number 2 choice-- untill last night, when he teamed up with Gephardt and especially with Holy Joe to go nuclear on Dean.

It was more than that, though. I may be naive or just mistaken, but I detected a sharp move to to the right in Kerry's economic pronuoncements, a pro-NAFTA, pro-corporate argument that had not been so explicit in the earlier debates.

It was an eye-opener.

It seems to me that Kerry has now joined Holy Joe on the far RIGHT-hand side of the Dem stage.

He would still get my vote, and strong support, in the General against Bush.

But he has dropped way way down on my list of candidates, to the next-to-last position, just above Lieberman.

I love you John. You were my senator for many years. Your stand against the Vietnam war was brave and principled.

But Washington has apaprently gotten to you. You are the big corporations' boy now.

Goodbye, and best of luck.

I don't mean this as a bash. I am sincerely disappointed.

[EagleEye]

1. Kerry is in search of a message that resonates.

[PATRICK]

11. Unfortunately

That is equally if not more disappointing if this is the best he can do. The point of primaries is how such decisions are made may forecast how the actual presidency will be run. If a candidate can't take charge of his campaign momentum and ideology then he won't win either primary or Presidency.

I hate contests when a real talent keeps missing the ball but we'll supposedly have nine losers before June. That's a negative sour way to look at it, but this is for the national good, not the hopes and dreams of the individual candidates.

[StopTheMorans]

2. I'm sick of Gep and Lie too

trying to get a bounce by making half-true statements.

[tjdee]

3. He criticizes Dean so he's FAR RIGHT?

That's what this is about, isn't it. Just because he talks about helping businesses, and because he's pro-NAFTA (hasn't he always been?)...what has changed....oh that's right, he helped Gep and Joe gang up on Dean.

Are you kidding me? Far right?

John Kerry? As in, the senator from Massachussetts?

I thought that Kerry could have taken the high road, but perhaps he was sick of being called Bush-lite, when apparently DEAN is the one who agreed with specific Republican policies.

He agreed with Gingrich, didn't he? He's oh so upset to be compared with Gingrich, and maybe he should have thought about that when comparing the other Democrats with Bush. Dean has this petulant way about him when someone criticizes his record. Seriously, it *is* Church Ladyish.

I was, though, suprised that Kerry jumped in to dig the knife in--especially after Edwards had tried to smooth things over.

[edzontar]

5. I meant RIGHT as far as the DP is concerned...

Not in comparison to Bush, Gingrich, etc.

I found his ECONOMIC argument to be rather DLC, pro-corporate, right-wing in the sense of Lieberman--that is, he took a position to the right of the likes of Gebhardt, Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, Braun, and (I think) Graham.

That put him RELATIVELY stage-right....with Joe and maybe Edwards--although Edwards even seemed more "Democratic"(pro-labor, environment re-trade) than Kerry did.

So THAT is what I meant.

Got it?

[tjdee]

9. Don't believe it.

John Kerry is one of the more liberal members of this party--he is inching rightward in the interest of being centrist for a general election. "Far right" as a term to describe him is totally inappropriate, IMO.

I'd argue that Dean is NOT to the left of either Edwards or Kerry on a number of issues, but we could argue about that all day.

[IrateCitizen]

10. Let's be clear about something regarding corporate influence

John Kerry is searching for traction right now. He was "supposed" to be the front-runner, but has found himself being upstaged first by Dean, and now by Clark. As such is the situation, he has to search for traction where he can find it.

He can get traction by courting the more economically conservative factions of the Democratic Party -- namely, the business interests who benefit from the further pursuit of "free" trade, like NAFTA. In fact, Kerry has ALWAYS been a staunch supporter of "free" trade. I'll give him credit for pushing for labor and environmental tokens in the fast track bill -- but he DID vote for it anyway even though it was defeated. That action, much more than his rhetoric, is a window into his soul as far as this issue is concerned.

If you're looking for a candidate to stand on principle, look to Dennis Kucinich. The rest of them are trying to get elected, period. Kerry falls into that, simply because he's a Washington-insider politician. It's what they do. If courting corporate interests on the trade issue will help John Kerry get the nomination, then by all means he will do it. He wouldn't be a true politician if he didn't.

[edzontar]

13. I love Dennis K--he is the best on issues, hands down

But I guess I am guilty of going with Dean as more "Electable" ....

The war and trade are obviously big issues for me.

But I want to defeat Bush, and am impressed by Dean's unconventional but effective skills as a politician and motivator of support.

He may actiually be able to beat the Chimp. I am not so sure that Dennis can--but I do love the guy.

I would support Kerry enthusiastically if he won the nomination...really, I am ready if necessary even to hold my nose, look away, and pull the lever for the worst of then all, Holy Joe.

[IrateCitizen]

15. No, you're absolutely right in your focus

Let me say one thing clearly. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that Dennis Kucinich will get the nomination. No chance. But I do not say that believing that his candidacy is not important -- because it is. Immensely so.

Why? Because just by his being in the race, Dennis will help plant the seeds for a paradigm shift in our society over the next several decades. Just by putting ideas out there like dismantling the military-industrial complex, establishing a Dept. of Peace dedicated to nonviolent conflict resolution, putting people before profits, etc. -- he is planting the seed in people's minds. Now, most people will hear him and say, "This guy's a kook, he's all pie-in-the-sky." But there will be others who will say, "Damn! This guy is really making sense on some things."

But for the shorter-term goal of beating Bush, it is perfectly fine to support somebody else as the preferred candidate. It is just important to realize that electoral change is often short-term and transitory, and that the overarching goal needs to be changing the paradigms of the way that people perceive the world around them -- one that will take much longer, but will be more permanent.

[CWebster]

21. I agree

and I think his final words at the end of the debate were the crowning glory of the whole event.

Think you will make a superb teacher.

[IrateCitizen]

25. What were his final words, CWeb? I missed it last night.

BTW, thanks for the compliment as well! :D

[CWebster]

29. Each candidate was asked

what sort of risk they would take to do the right thing even if they knew it was unpopular at the time. Kucinich was last and he mentioned cutting the military budget, using the money for child-care and establishing a department of peace. He mentioned three things - maybe healthcare for all, as well. It was delivered like an exclamation point. Planting seeds sometimes means being the voice in the desert.

[Andy_Stephenson]

32. IOW Kerry move whichever waya the wind blows?

Thats what I hear you saying, and it is what I see from Kerry...waffling and pandering.

[sangh0]

43. False dichotomy

The choices aren't limited to either:

a) Saying what you think and only what you think regardless of popular opinion
b) Saying only what's popular

There's a vast middle ground that's ignored by the polarizers.

[edzontar]

12. Good point....but its a mater of strategy in this case....

And i really mean right as far as his position on the stage...and especially as it regards economics and trade, which are hardly minor issues.

Dean strikes me not so much as leftist or a rightist but as a bit of a maverick--that is, he takes positions on the basis of what he thinks is best..and over time, some of these positions have changed as he considers new job options--like moving from governor to president.

As a result, he can be a little inconsistent--but then Kerry hasn't been exactly coherent on the Iraq war issue, has he?

For example, Kerry voted against the Gulf War in 1990, while Dean says he supported it. that means in 1990 I agreed with Kerry, not Dean,

But things are different now. And opposition to the current conflict was, frankly, ballsier and more necessary this time than it was in 1990.

So I reiterate--I used to think Kerry was a pretty progressive guy. I think that is his base-line instinct, as it were.

But he seems to be retreating from those positions iand moving to the Clintonesque center-"third way" or relative right, call it what you will, as compared to his competitors.

I will not support him in the primaries as long as he does this on key issues like war and jobs.

[Eloriel]

17. Yeah, and he's demoagogueing on the tax cut issue

Making it sound like sooooo many middle class folks will get HUGE ($3K) tax increases if anyone rolls back ALL of Bush's tax cuts. Hell, no one but NO ONE except the filthy rich were interested in tax cuts when Bush pushed them on us. Now Kerry's pushing the RNC talking points that it'll be a terrible burden on the middle class.

When you've got someone as thoughtful and reasonable as Paul Krugman worried about the very continued EXISTENCE of the U.S. if we don't address these deficits in a fairly aggressive way -- and quickly -- there's no room for pandering to the middle class on this issue.

But it might sell. People might get scared enough about losing "$3 thousand" to higher taxes, yeah, it could sell. That's all the counts, right?

Eloriel

[IrateCitizen]

18. Dean's response to this has been correct, IMHO

He has said that any gains that middle class folks would get in these tax cuts (even if the wealthy cuts were rolled back) would be more than lost in state university tuition increases, state taxes, and local taxes.

But, it seems that Kerry and Lieberman have succumbed to the whole "federal tax relief" game that the Republicans have played all these years....

[sangh0]

22. I must disagree with that argument

Both Kerry and Dean's tax plan include proposals for state aid in order to help them with their (often massive) deficits. It is possible to repeal the majority of the tax cuts (the ones the go to the rich) while maintaining the middle class portion of the tax cuts AND still manage to provide aid to the states, thus eliminating the need to raise tuition, state and local taxes, etc.

Basically, you were closer before. This issue (repeal all of the cuts, or just some of them) is based on politics and campaigning, and not economics. Both Dean and Kerry are using the issue to appeal to voters. The economic differences between the two plans are not all that great.

[IrateCitizen]

24. Perhaps I'm voicing my OWN opinions here too much...

Personally, I don't feel that the middle class tax cuts are even as important as a massive plan for all forms of US infrastructure -- electrical grid, highways, public transit, schools, etc. But, then again, none of the major candidates are advocating such a Keynesian stimulus, and perhaps I'd be better off sticking strictly to what they are proposing. ;-)

[sangh0]

28. No, not at all

You're doing just fine AFAIC. I just don't put much weight behind the arguemnt that leaving the middle class tax cuts in place threatens our economy, or will necesarily lead to increases in state and local taxes, etc. But it seems, you don't place too much emphasis on that either.

We have much bigger problems, and you are obviously aware of them. My main point was just that this issue (middle class tax cuts) is not an economic argument; It's a political argument.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. O.K. send me your $3000 Eloriel, it'll pay for 5 months of health care

that my family needs.
Meanwhile, as we spend that money, John will be fighting to restore the upper bracket tax rates to where Clinton had them, if not raise them to their previous historic upper limits. I don't know about you but I only throw out the dirty bath water and hold onto the baby.

[JNelson6563]

47. We fit in the category

of the cuts. Middle-income famiy of four. We got the $800 bribe, er advance and now pay $28 less a month. While Kerry was talking about the cuts last night I thought to myself that I'd rather go without the few extra $$ and have the country peaceful and prosperous again. In a heart-beat.

I'll bet a lot of others feel the same.

Julie

[phillybri]

4. I worry that John is getting desperate to generate interest....

....now that Clark and Dean are currently the hot properties in the race.

He needs to keep a level head and not lerch to the right....

That being said, he was right to criticize Dean on his comments re: Gingrich. Like he said, that's a policy difference.

[edzontar]

6. Agreed--but the Gephardt crack about Medicare-"worst program"....

Was totally distorted---what Dean clearly meant, as he put it, was that Medicare and Medicaid are poorly ADMINISTERED programs, which is clearly true--if you have ever worked in a hospital or other facility that deals with these organizations, you would know what he meant.

[CWebster]

7. What's Kerry to do?

The General took the wind out of his sales-pitch.

[edzontar]

8. Maybe that's it....but it's sad...

I moved out of Massachussets in 1990, so I guess I am behind the curve on just how DLC-Dem Lite Kerry has become.

I used to think his vote for the BUSHWAR was a "mistake"....I am not so sure now.

[morningglory]

14. I feel that many of those who have been in

Washington for so many years like Lieberman and Kerry have spent so much time raising money that they are partially owned by corporations. I believe any democrat is better than any repugnican, but look at how lenient Lieberman was on Enron, as he had taken money from them. This explains my attraction to Dean, and people like Wellstone. They are men of the people.

[blm]

30. That's ABSURD! Kerry NEVER took corporate pac money.

And I am appalled at the lack of knowledge and accuracy being shown so rampantly on this board that accusations can be made as if they are facts.

[Fabio]

42. I'd like to say here and now

that John Kerry has the best progressive credentials of any democrat in the US Senate. He's been a consistent leader in campaign finance reform, he has been a consistent leader in fighting corporate subsidies, and he has been a consistent leader in fighting for corporate reform. In his four races for Senate, he has never taken a dollar of PAC/corporate/soft money for any of his Senate Campaigns. He is unique among his collegues in that respect. He doesn't hang out with lobbyists, I can guarantee you that.

[blm]

50. You should craft this reply

as a post on its own that answers the lies and charges directed at Kerry.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Dean Turned Me Off Last Night

As anyone who regularly read GD knows, i don't participate in the candidate threads. I don't bash other people's preferential candidate, and i haven't decided yet who i think is best.

But, Dean was quite inconsistent last night, didn't handle the slings and arrows tossed his way well (especially by Dick G), and on at least 3 occasions, said one thing, then later said he agreed with someone who had a different take on things.

He just left me cold last night. That doesn't mean i dislike him, or that i hope he loses the race. Just didn't do for me what i expected or hoped.
The Professor

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. I suspect your "support" was never very strong to begin with

because JFK 2003 is not much different from JFK 1985- his first year in the senate. Excuse me if I am a bit insulted by the accusation that he is some kind of pro-corporate sell-out.

If you'll take a moment to see where John's coming from, he's simply been saying we can't just pull the plug on NAFTA and close the door to all countries that don't match the U.S.'s very, very high standards of labor and environmental protections. It would mean that our trade export business would immediately collapse. And he would never, ever give up any of those hard won protections which are at the core of his agenda as a true liberal. Portrayals of John Kerry as a corporate sell-out/Washington insider are slanderous if not outright lies.

And he called Dean out last night on what few of Dean's backers will admit: Dean is just saying what people want to hear, but won't go into the policy details at his "rallies". He is appealing to raw emotions, not logic. While the notion of leveling the playing field and making all our trade partners meet our standards is highly principled and a very nice concept. It simply could not happen very quickly, and would, in the short term, inflict more economic pain on the people John's spent his whole life fighting for.

So slam Kerry if you like, but just remember that Kerry's track record on ALL of these issues is YEARS longer than Dean's, and he has the experience and knowledge and understanding that Dean just simply does not have. But too bad for John that making responsible explanations of the issue is too boring for anyone to listen to.

Too bad for John that what he thought was a political campaign is a rock concert.

[IrateCitizen]

23. I can appreciate your passion for Kerry, but your POV is biased

Kerry is a Washington insider. While he may be a liberal by Washington standards, he is still an insider. This is highlighted by the way in which he has approached the trade issue.

The corporate interests that back the Democratic Party are staunch supporters of free trade. Ergo, the "mainstream" within the Party have become staunch supporters of free trade. Kerry falls into this category.

Perhaps no action could be more of a window to his soul than his vote in favor of fast-track authority for the executive on trade pacts. Kerry, to his credit, pushed for token labor and environmental standards within the bill, but these measures were defeated. But, rather than take a stand for labor and the environment, he still voted for the bill. I would think that this shows that while he is willing to at least TRY something for human interests, in the end this concern is trumped by his loyalty to commercial interests.

This is just an important thing to keep in mind. Note, if Kerry were to win the nomination, I would gladly vote for him and support him. But I don't think that it's wise to misportray him as some kind of progressive force, because he is not. He is a Washington insider and professional politician. As such, he will do what he has to do to be elected, including placate commercial interests at the expense of human interests.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. Kerry works in the Senate, Washington, Capitol Hill...

ergo "he is a Washington insider". Sorry, but you must give Kerry more credit than that. When in Rome you need not do what the Romans do.

[IrateCitizen]

34. He's been in Washington for what, 18 years now?

And while in the Senate, he probably spends the majority of his time there, right?

Washington is an insular culture, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. It affects people. Hell, it even affected Paul Wellstone in the time he was there -- and I had a helluva lot of respect and admiration for the man.

This is NOT a cut on Kerry. He's simply human, and as such, he has been affected by the Washington culture, after being surrounded by it for so long. If your eyes aren't wide open to this simple fact of social nature, then that's your personal problem -- and there's no reason to try and project it on me as "not giving enough credit" to your chosen candidate.

[Fabio]

45. What exactly does it mean. . .

to be a Washington Insider?

In detail, define the term -- pros and cons -- in your mind.

If you will, I'd also love to hear evidence of John Kerry being one such insider.

If its because he has been elected to four terms (ie is respected by the electorate of Massachusetts, not DC, then tell me).

Not flaming, but I find this argument to be simplistic and/or cover.

[StopTheMorans]

27. the "JFK" thing for Kerry

is, I am assuming, an attempt to compare him to the REAL JFK, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. And I am sure that you are obviously aware that John F. Kennedy is the JFK that comes to mind when most people think of the term, so could you kindly stop referring to Kerry as JFK, it's misleading to most people, and whatever you think of Kerry, he's not JFK (and I know he was on the same boat as JFK, I read the Globe profile:)

[Snellius]

20. Kerry did fine

I actually thought Kerry, who until last night had seemed to still be recovering from the trauma of his cancer surgery, came off very well. Sometimes not being showy and over assertive is a sign of confidence and strength. His articulate defense of the environment and on the need for energy independence is a persuasive position whose passion no other candidate shares.

Josh Marshall today characterized his performance as "sharp, strong and smart."

[bigtree]

33. I support Kerry

I thought he was great. The others were also impressive in their presentations. They have become sharper in defending their positions. There is a diversity of solutions among the Democratic candidates, but there is a unity in their opposition to Bush. It's impressive how many of the participants on that stage will be actively involved in policy making in the coming months. We can watch them put their proposals into action.

[blm]

35. READ THE TRANSCRIPT and get the story straight - Dean OVERREACTED

Posted by Karmadillo:

1. Gephardt compared a specific position Dean took regarding Medicare (cutting it by $270 billion dollars--I assume this refers to an attempt to decrease the rate of the program's growth). Here's the quote from the Washington Post transcript:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html
<edit>

GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.

He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.
more...

2. Dean later said:
DEAN: <edit> But I do think it's important that if folks are going to talk about us being like Newt Gingrich, that we're not going to stand for that. There is nobody up here that's like Newt Gingrich, and I think we have to understand that.

3. Kerry appeared to go out of his way to point out no one was saying Dean was like Gingrich (a genuinely bad guy). Gephardt had simply pointed out Dean and Gingrich had stood together to cut Medicare. Big difference.

KERRY: Well, in defense of Dick Gephardt, I didn't hear him say he was like Newt Gingrich, I heard him say that he stood with Newt Gingrich when we were struggling to hold on to Medicare. That's a policy difference.

[sistersofmercy]

36. Thank You! This is correct! The Gingrich comment was taking out of

context! Policy difference plain and simple. I thought Kerry did exceedingly well last night!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Off Topic but re: Alex

I have to admit I haven't been much interested in the avatars but Alex has given me pause. While I always identified with his love of Beethoven and fight to be free after his incarceration and "treatment", his hooligan nature is too much for most to overlook, and were I to post it I am afraid it would give others here just another reason to dislike me.

[sistersofmercy]

40. I just happen to like the movie.

I think it was a brillant movie. I'm certainly not advocating criminal activity. If ppl want to interpret as a tribute to the character, well, that's their problem.

[molly]

39. Some people only see what they want to see

and interpret facts massaged with their fantasies.

[deutsey]

41. Gephardt also supported, at our darkest hour--

when I was among the millions of people around the world fighting against George Bush and the Invasion of Iraq, he was standing side by side with Bush and GOP leaders in the Rose Garden--Dick, you were agreeing with the very plan that Bush wanted to pass, which has cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

Thanks, Dick!

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I35418-2002Oct02

[blm]

46. The subject was what was SAID last night.

But, if you want to go that route, Dean stood with Bush on Yucca Mt. and against the millions of people in Nevada. He stood with Bush and his environmental racism towards Sierra Blanca. He stands with Bush and Cheney TODAY as a supporter of deregulating electricity.

Of course, I expect Dean will change his stance when more people find out that he is for deregulation.

[sandnsea]

48. Gephardt responded to Dean in the first place

Dean said Gephardt had attacked him on Medicare and made other remarks about Gephardt and SSI.

The Moderator said: "Congressman Gephardt, we would be remiss." This acknowledges that Dean had made remarks about Gephardt that deserved response in accordance to the debate rules.

Gephardt was responding to Dean's own remarks and then Dean over-reacted when Gephardt stated the facts about the 1993 Medicare confrontation.

And then Dean cries about being attacked.

And this has been going on for months. Dean dishes it out but when it's turned back on him, he cries.

[poskonig]

38. Kerry looked very presidential last night.

While the attacks are annoying, they may be poor strategy. Kerry has been attacking Dean for months and isn't getting a lot of traction from doing so. Given this candidate has a lot of talent, he needs a change in strategy. I've been saying this for months; if Kerry remains obsessed with Dean, he will go the fate of Lieberman.

Kerry needs to explain his credentials on liberalism, national security, and the economy before he runs out of time.

[AP]

44. On the issue of taxes, I'm impressed that Kerry is taking a stand.

On that issue alone, he's making me very comfortable with the idea of him on the top of the ticket.

[TheDonkey]

49. Lately Dean has been BEGGING for Kerry to rip on him...

and when Kerry finally does Dean starts to cry "NO FAIR!! Bush is the enemy!"

Dean really should have never said he wished Kerry would say things to his face and then be startled when he does.