The reason there are so many conspiracy theorists here...

[pauldp]

is because there have been SO MANY CONSPIRACIES.

Was it not a conspiracy when BushCo lied to America and fixed the intelligence about WMD?

Was not the foul play that took place during the election - voter suppression, e-vote machine nonsense, intimidation, withholding of exit poll data by the media - all planned and kept from the public in a conspiracy?

Is not the b*llsh*t that is going on now with Rove, the lies and the stonewalling, and the treason - a result of a conspiracy?

Bush, Blair the media and the Corporate Billionaire Club Boys have cried wolf one time to many for me.

F*ck 'Em.

Why should we ever trust ANYTHING ANY OF THEM ever says again?

[knowbody0]

1. when the president says

"you have to repeat and repeat, in order to catapult the propoganda"
you must listen to and critique the conspiracy theories on the other side.

[nashville_brook]

2. truth seekers -- not conspiracy ****

i'm not even using those words together anymore.

democratic empiracists
truth seekers
political researchers
bullshit detectives

:)

[Minstrel Boy]

7. and here are some other titles for "tinfoilers":

investigative journalists


scholars


historians


economists


attornies


antiterrorism experts


elder statesmen


military intelligence officers


National Security Council veterans

[pauldp]

9. Do we need a new name? Or should we own it like "Liberal"?

If we could start not being afraid to use it. Maybe they couldn't try to hurt us by calling us one? Maybe start refering to exposed scandals as "proven conspiracies"?

[Minstrel Boy]

12. here's a relevant address by scholar Jamey Hecht

entitled "Conspiracy and the State of the Union" ("Conspiracy Theory" is not theory; it's hypothesis. A "theory" of conspiracy is something like Dr Peter Dale Scott's "Deep Politics").

...

THE TERM ‘CONSPIRACY THEORY’

This phrase is among the tireless workhorses of establishment discourse. Without it, disinformation would be much harder than it is. “Conspiracy theory” is a trigger phrase, saturated with intellectual contempt and deeply anti-intellectual resentment. It makes little sense on its own, and while it’s a priceless tool of propaganda, it is worse than useless as an explanatory category.

...

If we say, 9-11 was orchestrated by the bin Laden organization, the Pakistani intelligence agency, and elements of the neoconservative group that seized power in 2000, that’s an hypothesis, derived logically from a set of documented facts that constitute evidence. It isn’t a theory. It can become part of a theory if it’s joined with other hypotheses into a coherent descriptive pattern that can help to predict future events in general terms.

For instance, the amply demonstrated hypothesis that the 35th President of the United States was murdered by a consortium of interests including the CIA, Cuban exiles, organized crime, and the military. 11-22 and 9-11 are examples of premeditated murder by more than one person – in law, they are cases of conspiracy to commit murder (and fraud, and perjury, and treason). Taken together, they imply a theory whose greatest expression is the work of Peter Dale Scott, who coined the term deep politics: “the constant, everyday interaction between the constitutionally elected government and forces of violence, forces of crime, which appear to be the enemies of that government.”<7> Deep politics is a robust theory, a powerful explanatory account of demonstrable phenomena; it applies to myriad cases and offers a unified understanding of their causes and meanings. Like Goethe’s conceptual account of color, and like Newton’s rival account which refuted it, Scott’s deep-political theory applies uniformly to the domain it describes.

Conspiracy, on the other hand, is a hypothesis about a particular case at hand. The only rigorous meaning that the phrase “conspiracy theory” can have would be that political crimes involving more than one actor are usually exceptional episodes unrelated to one another – rather than the ongoing, systemic and unacknowledged relationships between authorities and the criminals they are paid to hinder and to punish.
http://www.911inquiry.org/Presentations/JameyHecht.htm

[pauldp]

15. Thanks for that.

I'll check that out further.

[nashville_brook]

19. maybe both -- i like your "proven conspiracies"

and i love reclaiming -- but CT might just be over the edge.

[marions ghost]

13. agree...

--'conspiracy theorist' is being used to discourage legitimate questioning all too often these days. The goal is isolation or "otherizing" of a certain group to discredit them, to shut them up--classic ploy. Of course there are wacky ideas around, and there are wacky conspiracy theorists around, AND they are to be avoided--HOWEVER speculation on the behavior and motives of our pathologically deranged government is not wacky. We live in surreal times. Some of our leaders are capable of the most egregious offenses imaginable, most here would agree. They are the insane ones (but perfectly functional in the society that nurtured them).

I agree--find new words and avoid using the label that is being used to disparage.

I don't agree that you can "own" the label <conspiracy theorist> the same way you can reclaim the word liberal, which once was at least neutral. 'Conspiracy theorist' always conjures up an image of some wild-eyed obsessive freak. Not good. Can't revitalize it right now and make it noble. Not realistic. Refuse to use it or respond to it. If someone refers to 'conspiracy theorists' --act like you didn't understand what they meant and change the subject.

[pauldp]

14. OK good point, but what if you don't want to change subjects?

What if you are engaged in political debate, the term is used to
discredit your argument and you can't just cut and run? I'm not sure we should "own" the label either I'm just trying to find an effective solution for heated debate.

[marions ghost]

16. I'm not any expert on political debate

but speaking from a linguistic/psychological perspective, I think it's time to first tie the user of the term in knots, and then expose him/her at their game if time allows. I wouldn't for a minute ALLOW anyone to call me a conspiracy theorist--I would knock that back immediately. Attempts to directly defend against such a pejorative usually don't work ("I am not. You are too. I am not. You are too.etc--don't let them reinforce it). When time is short, you can ignore, as I suggested...eg just laugh at the word (like it's a joke...like they accidentally called you a shitbird and you generously forgive them) and move on. Sometimes this is all that's necessary. Very unnerving to people who are poking the jellyfish for a reaction. Don't shiver. Don't bite. Negates the power of the pejorative. Not the time to bleat "I'm a proud conspiracy theorist..." Train yourself NOT to respond like you are "guilty" --ie. don't become an embodiment of their words.

If you have time to actively turn the tables and go on the offensive, you can question (and discredit) the use of the term. "So what exactly do you mean by "conspiracy theorist"? Isn't there a place for legitimate speculation here?" (you have immediately replaced their term with yours). Substitute a maxim of your own--for ex--"All serious investigation begins with speculation." (Avoid long-winded arguments, and I'd even avoid offering classic examples of conspiracy theories that were proven true--just more pinballs for someone who deals in blanket pejoratives). You want to get them on the ropes for even using the term. "Why are you calling my logical arguments conspiracy theory--what's your definition of CT?" If you have any more time, you can expose the underlying agenda--"you're just trying to use a nebulous term to discredit my arguments. Instead, why don't you actually address my arguments?"

[pauldp]

21. Excellent advice! Thank You!

"laugh at the word (like it's a joke...like they accidentally called you a shitbird and you generously forgive them) and move on. "


A very funny and apt analogy. If we could all just hear "shitbird" every time someone used the term conspiracy theorist.

I also like the idea of calling them out on their definition of CT.

Thanks again.

[helderheid]

20. BRAVO

[seabeyond]

3. changes in scientific studies, or other numbers on reports

what they did to mccain, cleland, kerry. buying media people. making commercials into news reports.....on and on and on

i have never been a conspiracy nut, never. so much so i was probably naive on occassion. i told husband, this administration is making me a conspiracy theorist, i didnt do it, it is their fault

[pauldp]

8. Exactly. Makes you wonder.

What they're cooking up next.

[Flying Dream Blues]

4. Exactly...if we don't seek the truth we might as well stay asleep.

[Old and In the Way]

5. I know one thing.....

I've been voting since '72......I have never, ever seen a more corrupt collection of war profiteers, and anti-democratic power grabbers as this bunch. They been sucessfully hatching/executing conspiracies against this country since before Kennedy's assassination.

[Mnemosyne]

18. Voting since 1976 and

have been following politics since 1972 and I agree most whole-heartedly OIW!
I didn't think any administration could be more corrupt and destructive since Raygun. Nixon was bad, Raygun much worse (huge rise in homeless). * is off the charts as far as corruption goes.

I pray each day for all of them to leave in shackles and cuffs! I was afraid they would go on unabated, until the recent Rove situation. I now have hope again, between the DSM and Plame!

Here's to the downfall of the House of Bush!:toast: :party:

:bounce: :woohoo: :applause:

[Oversea Visitor]

6. Conspiracies

More like realities

[lies and propaganda]

10. Thank you much, Pauldp

Though I dont very much like the term 'conspiracy theorist' because of the stigma attached, I do know that that is how I am labeled when I speak out about numbers of subjects.

And just like you say, it wouldnt have to be investigated if all your evil, smarmy shit wasnt so fucking see through.

edited for spelling dementia.

[pauldp]

11. I don't like the term either

but we may have to live with it for a while so I guess we might as well get used to it.

Proud conspiracy theorist!

Question everything because the've shown they will lie and lie again.

[Lars39]

17. "One man's conspiracy is another man's business plan."

~Ductapefatwa