General Clark and Flip Flops

[qanda]

In one of my rare moments of insanity, I actually tuned into the FOX channel. Unfortunately, what I witnessed was an amazing display of normal Faux "fairness." Anyway, the topic was General Clark and the guy who was in front of the camera (sorry, I cannot call this man a journalist) was holding up a pair of flip flops and said that they were not just for the beach. He then went on to show a clip of General Clark that had been clearly edited with the words that we have all come to know from the Drudge Report. After slamming Clark for being unsure of who he is and whatever other digs he could muster, he finished up by saying that he had to go because there was someone on the beach missing their flip flops.

Honestly, I was beginning to buy into the many things that have come out against General Clark over the last week, but now I'm flip flopping again and I *will* change my party affiliation to vote for Wesley Clark in the Primary election. Make that two people at the beach missing their flip flops.

[Must_B_Free]

1. Not only did he kiss the joint chiefs ass 2 years ago

he also helped write a document trying to persuade congress to commit 245 billion to Iraq over 5 years.

Yeah, what a great Democratic candidate!

[JVS]

2. I'm sure that the apologists will come to call you names

or just say "yawn".

That still will not change the fact that you are right.

[neuvocat]

15. What facts are those?

There's a lot of hearsay about Clark but little more than opinion pages-a lot of which already brings in a biased viewpoint either in favor of Clark or against him. There just isn't enough information out there that can be considered reliable either way.

[JVS]

17. Did I mention any facts

beyond the fact that he is right?

[bicentennial_baby]

5. You know what I would like?

I would like to see a bit of proof that this is true. It's not that I don't believe Kucinich, but I would like to see a bit more to back this claim up. Then, I will be able to make a fair judgement.

[KittyWampus]

6. WHAT DOCUMENT?

You mean the one Dennis K. was AWARE of but FAILED to bring to America's attention until the debate yesterday where he could further his own political fortune?

You mean the one where you have NO FUCKING IDEA what it says, when it was written, who wrote it, what Clark contributed and what Clark's capacity in being involved ACTUALLY was?

You mean the document Dennis K. COULD have used to highlight the grotesque incompetence and deviousness of Junior and his Administration?

The public, the press and even the GOP is on Junior's case about the 87 billion for Iraq and knowing that the number could reach245 billion before it's done COULD DAMN JUNIOR TO HELL... but Dennis couldn't be bothered bringing this up until last evening!!!

[qanda]

9. I 'm not aware of what you're talking about

Could you direct me to something so that I can educate myself or maybe you can explain it to me. Thanks.

[_NorCal_D_]

23. Yesterday

Kucinich hinted that Clark was responsible for the Iraq war strategy.

That's what he's talking about.

[qanda]

28. Oh, I totally missed that one!

Does anyone have a link?

[_NorCal_D_]

21. Please show me some proof

from a credible news source regarding this accusation. After all plenty of things are said in politics that are untrue.
Here's some evidence to refute your claim.

June 20, 2003
Media Silent on Clark's 9/11 Comments:
Gen. says White House pushed Saddam link without evidence

www.fair.org/press-releases/clark-iraq.html


August 15, 2003
Gen. Wesley Clark: Iraq war based on 'misjudgment'

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/14/cnna.clark/


September 20, 2003
Clark Calls Iraq War 'A Major Blunder'

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-clark-iraq,0,4347699.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[imax2268]

34. Well...

a lot has changed since then...people still have the right to change their minds in this country...

and leave it up to Faux News to give a "fair and balanced" report about it...my ass...

[Renew Deal]

36. Where's the proof?

Cause I can dig up the proof of Kucinich pitting whites vs. Blacks back in Cleveland. Let Kucinich talk about that. But I want to see your proof.

[Wickerman]

3. FOX hates him

must be doing something right. Thanks to all at DU that help spread the word.

[JVS]

4. maybe fox is trying to trick us into supporting him

[Pastiche423]

8. I wouldn't put it past...

[Wickerman]

10. or, maybe they think that by going all negative on

him, they can trick us into thinking that they are trying to trick us into supporting him so that we will support him but then realize that that they tricked us into thinking that they are trying to trick us into supporting him so that we supported him and we'll get frustrated and throw away our votes on sharpton...

uh huh

:tinfoilhat:

[JVS]

13. oooh those wiley devils!

I guess the only safe thing to do is not to base your decisions off of Faux news one way or the other.

[Pastiche423]

18. Welp...

that's an easy one for me. I never watch Faux.

Google is my friend. ;-)

[JVS]

19. Me neither

I have no cable

[Wickerman]

24. that makes three of us

so, what the fuck are we talking about?

:)

[Rowdyboy]

7. "Tacky and Cheap..".

That should be Faux's motto...absolutely disgusting. If I didn't already support Clark, I would after this.

[wyldwolf]

11. What I would like...

...is for everyone to lay out all the problems with each candidate. That way we could all see... in one place... which candidate did and said what.

The only problem with that is some people would get in a snit and accuse others of bashing their candidates so I guess its only open season on Clark because he is a big bad military man.

[w4rma]

12. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[wyldwolf]

14. This is a sincere question... no malice ...

..but what is your point here? Thanks :)

[w4rma]

20. The topic is flip flops. This post was to provide context. (n/t)

[qanda]

25. I'm not trying to be smart.

I really am trying to stay out of the candidate bashing fray. But, wasn't Howard Dean called out for flip flopping on medicaid, the age of social security, and also his position on the Iraq war at one point?

[w4rma]

27. On all of the topics you mentioned, the statements were made 7+ years ago.

And no change in position was made on the Iraq war: Dean has consistantly opposed the invasion of Iraq since at least October (before the IWR vote).

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[qanda]

30. I'm not sure that I understand the difference.

Dean can be afforded the opportunity to change his mind, but Clark can't because his change doesn't fit in the proper time frame.

[wyldwolf]

31. There isn't a difference...

... other than a made up one by Dean's supporters.

[w4rma]

35. Seven years ago, compared to the next day.

Seven years ago, Clark may have been voting for Bob Dole. Will you hold that against Clark?

[wyldwolf]

37. He voted for Clinton in 92 and 96...

...and a lot of people, are using the Iraq war as some litmus test for the credibility of a candidate. It isn't the end all of issues to everyone.

In fact, and although I disagree personally, MSNBC just showed a poll that has approval for the war at 64%.

[_NorCal_D_]

16. How very clever of FOX 'news'.

Once again their partisan, biased propaganda sticks out like a sore thumb.

[gulliver]

22. "A foolish consistency ...

... is the hobgoblin of small minds," of course.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone who changes his/her mind a few times. I despise people who never change their mind (or claim never to have changed their mind). They are either liars or idiots.

[Pastiche423]

26. There is a lot to be said

for those that change their minds over years and those that change the minds over hours. Moreover, why they changed their minds.

[gulliver]

29. Yep. But this thread is about Clark.

And there hasn't been any of what you describe other than innuendo.

Peace

[Pastiche423]

33. How long between

I was against it and I would have voted for it? It certainly wasn't years.

[wyldwolf]

32. To paraphrase what pbl posted above..

Dean supporters afford the opportunity for him to change his mind, but Clark can't because his change doesn't fit in the proper time frame the Dean supporter have set.